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On November 02 2012 07:56 JohnMadden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 07:00 Danko__ wrote:
I was questioning your statement that bio is supposed to suck in PvT. I didnt ask about its viability in current state of game.
Bio is supposed to suck in that matchup? It is assumed to suck. 'Suppose' has multiple different meanings you know.
I don't assume it sucks in TvT (not so sure for TvP). At least not unit-wise. But it's completly unfiguered. Starbow's biggest change is probably the changed mineral/gas-ratio, making teching way safer than in SC2.
That means that
-) Meching players can quite safely get into siege tank play (something that is not easy in SC2 and needs a few tricks - 1base banshee openings, nonstop marine production)
-) Mass Marine means you don't use your income efficiently. But the Marine is your main combat unit, so biofocused play is a completly different stlye of play compared to SC2, simply because you don't have as much punch in main engagements.
But I think that there could be quite some interesting ways to play bio with fast ghosts, and air and/or siege tank support. Men, I wish I had the time to test all my RTS strategy ideas 
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Okey, so i've been playing some games of this "mod" now and i really feel that it is really legit and fun with lots of potential. Thing is that it is very hard to find games due to the fact that it is not popular, I think ppl should really consider trying this out cus it really is a ton of fun.
Great job with the mod, this is what rts should be like!
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On November 02 2012 08:34 fivebyfive wrote:
Okey, so i've been playing some games of this "mod" now and i really feel that it is really legit and fun with lots of potential. Thing is that it is very hard to find games due to the fact that it is not popular, I think ppl should really consider trying this out cus it really is a ton of fun.
Great job with the mod, this is what rts should be like!
Usually you have a good number of people on starbow channel in the evening
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@Bio
Your right Laertes. Bio might be more useful than I think it is.. There is much left to explore. So I will not rush any changes into it. Its just an area I keep an eye on. Maybe can EMP disable abilities too, just to "pimp" the spell a little more. But I will only do changes it if turns out that bio units are not useful to get, compared to pure mech.
And if I do a change, I first need to identify a correct area to "buff" bio in.
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THAT GUY SO TOOK MY UNIT NAME GRRRRR (for zerg)
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TvP just feels like such a crappy horrible match up. If toss tech switches right they can take total map control and as terran you forced to turtle into your 4th base for like 20 minutes. It's so boring. Combined with the feeling like your trying to stop the toss from playing with his food early game it makes me detest the match up. There needs to be some serious changes in the matchup to make it more dynamic and make the terran not feel like hes cowering in the corner the first 10 minutes of the game.
Here are some concerns that I have expressed to other players who told me to post here regarding why the matchup is so distasteful and maybe ideas for adjustments(december & pura being 2 of them):
Early air threat: The biggest weaknesses to mech is it's limited anti air and immobility. In BW, the only air threats a terran had were from scouts and carriers, both of which were so expensive there were not a threat early game (even if scouts were ever a threat). If a toss in BW went 2 base carrier, it was a threat, but could be dealt with due to it being sufficiently all-in and gave enough time for a terran reaction. In starbow, toss can hide a stargate and chrono out a voidray with virtually no hit to their long term plans. The chance of this happening forces terran to get either marines or turrets and an armory. Both of these options severely hurt the terran midgame since it delays armory upgrades, extra factories, 3rd gas, vultures (and there for map control with mines). If you go marines, you end up with useless paperweight in the mid game, especially if he never attacks. If you don't, you just die to simple 3 gate robo agression of an expand with zealot stalker immortal.
It also turns any sort of factory aggression into a pure gamble. If you try to do heavy 2 fact aggression and he gets 1 void ray, you lose the game then and there. If you go marine tank push and he goes stalker robo, you lose the game then and there. Your stuck in your 1.5 bases hoping he didn't hide something and trying desperately to stop him from playing with his food. It's a terrible feeling if the toss does it correctly.
Void Shield: Void Shield forces focus fire from the terran. However, in a largely siege tank army when combined with overkill from tanks, if you just focus fire you lose a ton of damage. It forces you to take seperate chunks of tanks and focus fire different groups (assuming 2-3 void shields went down) which takes an insane amount of apm compared to what it takes to use void shield.
My idea to make it more of an interesting ability is, if a unit takes damamge, they lose the effect of the void shield. This lets the toss still flank with it and forces terran to react, but allows terran to stop the ability with a similar amount of effort as it takes to use it.
Vultures: Mines used to be so good in BW. Now though toss has so many ways to deal with them.
Immortals take 10 damage from mines, aka 1 immortal can clear out a while pathway of mines making the map control ineffective. Vulture harass is shut down so easily by cannons + recall + blink. If the map has expansions that are close together, it's easier for mech but it's even easier for toss to deflect vulture harass. Bigger maps, which are better for vulture harass are almost impossible for mech to secure bases on.
Since you have to devote so many resources into marines or turrets or fast armory to defend allins, it cuts hard into your vulture production giving you less mines mid game which kills terrans map control and harass ability.
Mines take soooo long to burrow, they are auto targeted by units, tank splash takes them out, blink can be used to allow stalkers to avoid the mine field + drag them into tanks . They are good if pre-set up, but a lot of mine usage in bw was dropping them during a battle, and then the toss defending those dropped mines. In starbow, mines do virtually nothing in a battle. Make them burrow faster and see how it works.
Ghosts: It would be awesome to incorporate ghosts in the composition and would help a lot. However, 150 gas per ghost is severely limiting. Ghosts are weak and take a ton of micro to be effective. Due to the high number of bases required to get the gas for mech and ghosts, they don't help at all in the early game where most of the problems are. Ghosts do seem to be promising, but they don't solve the problems that make the matchup feel terrible mostly because they come out too late in the game when going mech.
tl;dr: The fact that you have to cower in your base for the first 10 minutes of the game just to look forward to another 10 minutes of turtling makes TvP horribly not fun. Toss got so many buffs against mech in starbow and in december's words, it's like BW terran trying to play buffed mobile sc2 protoss that something needs to be done about the match-up. Can I have some sort of mid game timing or something that isn't a total gamble? I can not feel like a helpless rabbit in the early game?
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@TvP
The biggest concern with the match up is the high number of options P has to kill T in the midgame.
P can get:
- Void ray
- Reaver drop
- Stalker range to outrange bunkers
- Blink
- DTs
- Immortal to deny the first siege tanks
All of this before the 10 minute mark and it can do severe damage to Terran.
T on the other hand has no similar dirty tricks.
- Wraiths
- Vulture drop
- Early bio push with P-matrix
- Early Vulture + tank push
But its very easy to jump into conclusions. We are a rather small player pool and there is much left to explore. As soon as we encounter imbalances we must make sure that there is no way to overcome it. There is also a skill gap between players to consider, or experience from match ups. Maybe someone comes up with a way to win in a match up, and the opponent can´t figure out a way to deal with it. That does not mean there is no way.
Yesterday a player was angry in the chat on B.net and PMed me and explained how imbalanced T was in PvT. There was no way to win over T as P. Siege tanks are too good, spider mines are too good, Goliahts are too good vs carriers, Terran has to do nothing, P has to do all the micro, zealot drops, blink into tanks, cast Void Shell, Storm, drop reavers etc.
Some common things I hear and see from all match ups:
Zerg players say that Hydras & Zerglings do not beat Stalkers. Its too easy to Blink away. I never see Zerg flank the Protoss army. They just attack from one angle. (Especially on open field)
Terran players says its too hard to defend their bases vs drops. I rarely see Terran players place down Spider mines for defence inside the bases. (In case of drops)
Terran must turtle vs Protoss. I rarely see T go for early aggression vs Protoss. I often hear there is no way to do it. Maybe they are right. But I think this area needs to be explored more. It was a thing that was common to hear in BW too - Terran can´t attack early vs Protoss.
Protoss players say they can not break Terran siege lines. If I had a nickel for everytime I seen a Protoss A-move with his entire army of Stalkers + Zealots into sieged up tanks and Spider mines...
Don´t get me wrong. Its obviously good that players report things that smells fishy about the match ups here in the thread. Otherwise I would get no material for further balance changes and patches. But it is as important that we as players try to find ways to overcome problems. Be bold and try stuff that no one has tried!
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Zerg players say that Hydras & Zerglings do not beat Stalkers. Its too easy to Blink away. I never see Zerg flank the Protoss army. They just attack from one angle. (Especially on open field)
Sir, it's blink. You CANNOT flank blink stalkers without forcing blink first, and holding a group of zerglings strong enough to set up that flank away from your army considerably lowers your chances of baiting it.
Terran players says its too hard to defend their bases vs drops. I rarely see Terran players place down Spider mines for defence inside the bases. (In case of drops)
Terrans need to spam turrets more, honestly. It doesn't seem all that hard to take the drops out. I could start whining about how prism warp in is a dumb mechanic, allowing you to spawn a shatload of units in your enemy's base, but holy fuck that game was a nightmare ;_;
Terran must turtle vs Protoss. I rarely see T go for early aggression vs Protoss. I often hear there is no way to do it. Maybe they are right. But I think this area needs to be explored more. It was a thing that was common to hear in BW too - Terran can´t attack early vs Protoss.
You cannot aggress early against P without trading armies. All the tech P needs to fend off any aggression is acquired so quickly, no considerable force comes from T anywhere close to vulnerable timing windows of P.
Don´t get me wrong. Its obviously good that players report things that smells fishy about the match ups here in the thread. Otherwise I would get no material for further balance changes and patches. But it is as important that we as players try to find ways to overcome problems. Be bold and try stuff that no one has tried!
Considering how tough of a job you have with filtering the important notes and observations from this thread and other players' opinions, I'd say we're on our way to develop a stable meta.
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Considering how tough of a job you have with filtering the important notes and observations from this thread and other players' opinions, I'd say we're on our way to develop a stable meta.
Yea I am positive too. There are lot of balance changes left to do. I just want to make sure that I make the right changes, when I do them.
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I used the skills energize the medic about ghosts. is nice but requires patience and micro but does its job.
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why do spine crawlers have 8 range and photon cannons have 7?
also neo anarchy is probably the worst map ive ever played.
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On November 03 2012 01:13 scen wrote:
also neo anarchy is probably the worst map ive ever played.
Good to know! What's wrong with it?
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EPT
