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On November 01 2012 00:19 Danko__ wrote:
jdsowa, i think we should even multiply units HP 10 times so players also have time tomake tea or coffee for themselves.
What's so bad about units living longer? It's not like it makes controlling them easier, it only allows you do more with the same units before they are destroyed/forced to retreat. Just because players with weaker controlling/multitasking abilities will be able to do more things in the meanwhile doesn't mean that stronger players won't be able to do even more. Sure, the game is faster than in BW, but that doesn't mean the fights should last shorter.
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hmm this ball you speak of..where have you seen it? i cant find it anywhere in the games i watch..
xD
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On November 01 2012 01:42 JohnMadden wrote:Dec, new OBS has been released on Oct 28th, version 0.43a, go grab it. http://obsproject.com/
Thanks!!!!! Hopefully it'll fix my crashing issues!
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--- Finally the small patch with mostly bug fixes is uploaded ---
In the previous patch, I made hatcheries too weak with their slow larva spawn rate. Inject is crucial to use! I want Inject to be a bonus for Zerg macro but NOT mandatory to get any production at all. In numbers:
Hatchery spawn time on Larvas reduced from 22 to 20 seconds.
Inject spawns a new larva every 13 second instead of evey 11 second.
Lasts 40 seconds instead of 33.
A hatchery + inject has the same total spawn time as in the previous patch. Inject is just a little bit weaker and hatchery a little bit stronger. So Zerg has neither gotten stronger or weaker in terms of total larva.
Spine crawler HP increased to 250 from 200 and range decreased to 8 from 9. Reavers could 2 shot them and Dark templars kill them in 5 hits. I want them to be less tanky to make Transfuse more needed in base defence. Just not too fragile...
Auto-Turret are still not auto-attacked. But their HP has been nerfed from 200 to 100 and damage from 12 to 8. Instead of just letting it be a stationary bigger marine it has something unique about it.. If you do not pay attention this thing can deal some damage.. (Although my final goal is to replace this spell)
Shield ability for Medics renamed into P-Matrix. D-Matrix is soooo 98. This is the new Personal, Private or Protective Matrix? The P can have many meanings! This MOD needs more cute stuff 
The Marine Shield upgrade I talked about earlier has NOT been added, as I previously stated. Instead I opt to find better ways to make bio more viable in TvP and TvT.
Bugs
Lots of Terran units did not show up in the army cost field for observers in game. It looked like Terran had a low army value in terms of resources. Hopefully it shall work now. (I can´t try it without uploading it)
Reavers make no more weird sounds when moving. They also have same radius as Archons and immortals now. Their selection finally works!
In the previous patch I gave some Zerg buildings longer build time. That messed with the birth animation for some reason, so most Zerg buildigns have been reverted to their normal build times.
Transfuse did not work properly. Now it does!
Lockdown has a better sound effect and the buff is visible on Reavers.
And some other minor bug fixes..
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What is left to do with Starbow?
Well, apart from the eternal work of balance and bug fixing, there are a couple of "design" fixes left to do.
I am still mainly focusing on Zerg. In the next patch I plan to do these things:
- Add another effect (and purpose) to the Overlord generate creep ability. (I just need to get it to work properly...)
- Improve the Infestors and Swarm Guardian line up of spells. (I am not happy with either caster, for many reasons)
- Pimp the Corruptor. Its purpose is to be an anti-air unit but I would like to add something more to it so its not as narrow. Maybe some kind of simple ability to broaden its use a bit more..
- I consider to add the idea suggested by SmileZerg (Maybe with different numbers though) : + Show Spoiler +Let me offer you an alternative for Hydralisks:
- Double the attack cooldown (fires twice as slow).
- Increase the number of spines per shot from 1 to 2. (Use Queen projectile animation if necessary).
Just like the changes with the Stalker, by giving Hydralisks higher burst damage and more time between shots while keeping the same total DPS, they will be more microable with both focus firing and stutter step. But it has another consequence as well - high burst damage leads to more potential overkill with projectile attacks. Therefore, the same number of Hydras against a small surface area of targets will distribute their damage as low as half as optimally as before, and waste a lot more damage overkilling targets. Increasing the surface area of targets per Hydralisk, ie Flanking, will counteract this.
It will also allow Hydras to deal more damage on that first salvo when using burrow ambush tactics, something that they are notorious for in the lore but that is rarely seen in games of SC2. It will also help them against hit-and-run attacks from Mutalisks, since often against fast moving evasive targets you're only going to get a single shot off before they come around again from another angle.
Now since we're increasing the number of spines rather than just doubling the damage, Armor upgrades for the opponent will still retain the same cost-effectiveness, rather than being halved. None of the balance should change, just the micro potential.
Let me know what you think.
Just as a way to make Zerg more eager to flank with Hydras. Maybe not the exact numbers as he describe, but just lower the attack speed and increase damage, so the same proportions stay. The same DPS.
There are also some minor things I consider with P and T. Some of the stuff have I told you about already, like bringing back Recall to the Arbiter etc.
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Yay for reaver fixes (man, that sound was annoying). I am glad lockdown now has a better sound effect (though, I have not heard it yet). Is there any way to make the lockdown missile a bit more noticeable? Maybe just larger or longer model.
Regarding bio
The huge range buff for lockdown needs to be tested more. It is really useful in TvP and makes bio more possible. However, it is still 5x easier for Protoss to win, as the Terran has to do so much and any mess up will cost many units. It is fun, though. I like the increased range on lockdown.
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My current thoughts on Z.
Larva change was a band aid fix for Z. Sure, early game is harder for Z and he can't just throw units, engage poorly and still win. As soon as early game is done with and Z hasn't been dealt enough damage to lead to his demise, he's still got enough dosh to just do whatever he wants, as fast as he can do it.
I suggest taking a HARD look at why BW vs Z matches were so amazing so watch, and what sort of eco is present at the various stages of the game. It'll be a little hard to translate because eco is extremely complicated, and BW is simply low eco compared to SBOW.
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This is what I say for Z:
1. Increase build time for some/all buildings.
2. Increase cost of some/all buildings.
3. Decrease larvae spawn time.
4. Make hatchery/lair/hive have the same amount of HP as they had in BW.
#4 makes expanding more dangerous, but since they will have more larvae from #3, they can make more of an army (or static defenses) to defend/attack to expand behind.
Zerg should be the macro oriented race. Micro should be important, but numbers is the idea behind Zerg. Since the macro mechanics are easier for Zerg in comparison to BW Zerg and Starbow Terran and Protoss, timing should be more important for making units as well as tech buildings. Increasing build time and cost of buildings can slightly slow down Zerg in the early game as well as punish those who are not on top of choosing when to tech and when to drone. Of course, the actual numbers need fine tuning.
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On November 01 2012 02:27 Kabel wrote:
- Pimp the Corruptor. Its purpose is to be an anti-air unit but I would like to add something more to it so its not as narrow. Maybe some kind of simple ability to broaden its use a bit more..
In my opinion a unit shouldn't be forced into other fields of use, it should rather be looked into in terms of the viability of using it in the field it was already designed for. In this case, we already have both Corruptor and Scourge, so you have to avoid overlapping it with another unit/spellcaster.
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We wont get anywhere that way. We have to figure out how our best players can play with yours. NA VS EU.
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PvT
Way too easy for P. The amount of effort T has to put in is much more than what P has to put in. T has to be a level of skill higher.
1. Stalkers could use a slight blink range nerf.
2. Vultures need 100 HP. Due to gamespeed differences between BW and SC2, vultures do not last as long to do much; I think a slight HP boost would compensate for this.
3. Mines need to burrow faster and/or deal more damage. Burrow time takes so long >_>
4. Immortals need HP nerf. 100/150 or 100/125 maybe.
5. Ghosts using lockdown are really good, but the amount of skill and effort required for the Terran player to use ghosts + manage everything else is considerably higher than what is required of a Protoss.
These changes should not really affect any other matchup.
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On November 01 2012 03:33 purakushi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +PvT
Way too easy for P. The amount of effort T has to put in is much more than what P has to put in. T has to be a level of skill higher.
1. Stalkers could use a slight blink range nerf.
2. Vultures need 100 HP. Due to gamespeed differences between BW and SC2, vultures do not last as long to do much; I think a slight HP boost would compensate for this.
3. Mines need to burrow faster and/or deal more damage. Burrow time takes so long >_>
4. Immortals need HP nerf. 100/150 or 100/125 maybe.
5. Ghosts using lockdown are really good, but the amount of skill and effort required for the Terran player to use ghosts + manage everything else is considerably higher than what is required of a Protoss.
These changes should not really affect any other matchup.
1. It might be just me, but every time P goes 2gate range, it forces me to put down a bunker or two and pull a shatload of SCVs to repair, which is a pain. It's become a standard for P to get DC as soon as possible on EU.
3. They are hardly useful in battle since they are auto-targeted and taken down immediately - making them burrow faster would help a lot I believe.
4. Your second point will compensate for their health I believe - once vultures become a viable replacement for marines in terms of focus firing immortals, their HP nerf might not be needed.
5. EMP I feel is so, so much better, especially against high gateway masses.
On November 01 2012 03:27 Danko__ wrote:
We wont get anywhere that way. We have to figure out how our best players can play with yours. NA VS EU.
It's not BW, the netcode won't allow for smooth play cross-server anymore I believe.
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On November 01 2012 04:15 JohnMadden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 01 2012 03:33 purakushi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +PvT
Way too easy for P. The amount of effort T has to put in is much more than what P has to put in. T has to be a level of skill higher.
1. Stalkers could use a slight blink range nerf.
2. Vultures need 100 HP. Due to gamespeed differences between BW and SC2, vultures do not last as long to do much; I think a slight HP boost would compensate for this.
3. Mines need to burrow faster and/or deal more damage. Burrow time takes so long >_>
4. Immortals need HP nerf. 100/150 or 100/125 maybe.
5. Ghosts using lockdown are really good, but the amount of skill and effort required for the Terran player to use ghosts + manage everything else is considerably higher than what is required of a Protoss.
These changes should not really affect any other matchup. 1. It might be just me, but every time P goes 2gate range, it forces me to put down a bunker or two and pull a shatload of SCVs to repair, which is a pain. It's become a standard for P to get DC as soon as possible on EU. 3. They are hardly useful in battle since they are auto-targeted and taken down immediately - making them burrow faster would help a lot I believe. 4. Your second point will compensate for their health I believe - once vultures become a viable replacement for marines in terms of focus firing immortals, their HP nerf might not be needed. 5. EMP I feel is so, so much better, especially against high gateway masses. On November 01 2012 03:27 Danko__ wrote:
We wont get anywhere that way. We have to figure out how our best players can play with yours. NA VS EU. It's not BW, the netcode won't allow for smooth play cross-server anymore I believe.
1. Yeah, reminiscent of BW in that dragoons outrange bunkered marines. It is typical to pull some SCVs. I missed this. I am not sure how much pressure EU Protosses are putting, though.
4. That's true. Try one then maybe the other.
5. I love EMP, too, but I was just pointing out the added usefulness of lockdown since its range was buffed. Regardless, though, the second clause in that sentence still holds true. Perhaps, even more difficult to use with EMP, since it is harder to use, as it can not target specific units.
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On November 01 2012 03:33 purakushi wrote:
PvT
Way too easy for P. The amount of effort T has to put in is much more than what P has to put in. T has to be a level of skill higher.
1. Stalkers could use a slight blink range nerf.
2. Vultures need 100 HP. Due to gamespeed differences between BW and SC2, vultures do not last as long to do much; I think a slight HP boost would compensate for this.
3. Mines need to burrow faster and/or deal more damage. Burrow time takes so long >_>
4. Immortals need HP nerf. 100/150 or 100/125 maybe.
5. Ghosts using lockdown are really good, but the amount of skill and effort required for the Terran player to use ghosts + manage everything else is considerably higher than what is required of a Protoss.
These changes should not really affect any other matchup.
The reason you think this is because you are used to playing vs bio. In regular meching TvP (such as the ones I played vs Horus, and others) the terran doesn't have that hard of a job. I actually would believe it to be the other way around, as very good blink micro, reaver micro, etc. are needed for their entire army. Mech is a very positional army, and once I get to my position it isn't nearly as much micro needed.
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a suggestion for the damage voidray:
Void ray: Stage 1 damage changed from 6 (+4 vs Armored) to 4 (+8 vs Armored)
Stage 2 damage changed from 8 (+8 vs Armored) to 6 (+ 12 vs Armored)
Currently, marines do not work well vs Void Rays on pretty well for cost. This change increases total damage to Armored units, which makes Void Rays a better counter against Lurker/Tank/Broodlord/Battle cruiser, but likewise more vulnerable to unarmored units like Mutalisks, Hydralisks, Marines, Archons.
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On November 01 2012 04:15 JohnMadden wrote:1. It might be just me, but every time P goes 2gate range, it forces me to put down a bunker or two and pull a shatload of SCVs to repair, which is a pain. It's become a standard for P to get DC as soon as possible on EU. 3. They are hardly useful in battle since they are auto-targeted and taken down immediately - making them burrow faster would help a lot I believe. 4. Your second point will compensate for their health I believe - once vultures become a viable replacement for marines in terms of focus firing immortals, their HP nerf might not be needed. 5. EMP I feel is so, so much better, especially against high gateway masses. Show nested quote +On November 01 2012 03:27 Danko__ wrote:
We wont get anywhere that way. We have to figure out how our best players can play with yours. NA VS EU. It's not BW, the netcode won't allow for smooth play cross-server anymore I believe.
1) This is the point. Look at broodwar, the same thing happens. If the terran wants to be somewhat greedy by not going 1fact expo, they suffer by having to have SCV on bunker. If you want to counteract this without getting tanks, get marine range.
2) I don't know where your 2nd point went, but I will count like normal. Mines being sniped in battle is *huge*, all of those shots are tanking for vultures/tanks. If you watch a fight where they don't do that, it sucks for the terran. They just straight up die. If they don't get targeted, they do huge damage.
3) Vultures are not supposed to deal direct damage except against zealots . They will offer a buffer between the protoss army and the tanks. Immortals are surprisingly bad vs mech, because very few players take the time to actually focus fire the tanks. The only time they are good are when the terran is being very silly and bad and forgetting/losing all of his vultures.
4) Ghosts are silly to use with a mech army. Suddenly you have something from literally every tech tree. You need tech lab'd barracks, factories, and starports for science vessels once they get arbiters. So much gas put into this. This is why science vessels were given EMP in the first place, they would be doing something other then mobile detection. Now they are quite silly.
But yes, EMP is good vs an army so unless Kabel decides to change it back to non-weird, I will have to use ghosts ><
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Where can I find more high level play of this?
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Been winning every single ZvP until Can started using blink stalkers into storm.
Lurkers are useless because of how fast stalkers are and how easy they kill unburrowed lurker.
Lings don't actually hurt Stalkers with the current dps.
Hydras with some ling support is whats recommended by Freeze, plus spines at every base.
During the main engagement hydras simply melt due to storm.
Any ideas guys?
Infestor doesn't stop stalkers from blinking.
Pretty frustrating to lose tons of units without killing more than 3 stalkers.
Pure zealot +1 timings are basically free wins.
Edit: The hydras can hold stalkers off for a while by being super careful and using spines, but when storm hits any big engagement hydras useless, especially since toss doesn't have big losses.
My main predicament is engaging a toss army, stalker ball with a few templar in tote.
MORE GAMES!!!!!
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EPT
