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On November 01 2012 08:58 decemberscalm wrote:
Been winning every single ZvP until Can started using blink stalkers into storm.
Lurkers are useless because of how fast stalkers are and how easy they kill unburrowed lurker.
Lings don't actually hurt Stalkers with the current dps.
Hydras with some ling support is whats recommended by Freeze, plus spines at every base.
During the main engagement hydras simply melt due to storm.
Any ideas guys?
Infestor doesn't stop stalkers from blinking.
Pretty frustrating to lose tons of units without killing more than 3 stalkers.
Pure zealot +1 timings are basically free wins.
Edit: The hydras can hold stalkers off for a while by being super careful and using spines, but when storm hits any big engagement hydras useless, especially since toss doesn't have big losses.
My main predicament is engaging a toss army, stalker ball with a few templar in tote.
MORE GAMES!!!!!
Yea that build is quite strong when executed right. Altough i did play a few games vs Canhanrah using this strat, its not sooo demoralising as you describe it  . The first poke of stalkers can be held easily held without spines (hydra + ling), just make sure to scout it early w/ a zergling @ front of his base. Also since he cut probes ~ 30 or 28 for the 5-6 gateway production u can hold it and take a 4th relatively easily if u dont counterattack blindly. By the time of the second push, you should have lurkers, scouted his 3rd base and maybe some spines and/or start upgrades starting to catch up. Ultra ling swarm guardian is much more stronger against blink stalker comps than hydras.
Hydras late game are actually not that great as storm/reavers/ speedlots can just shred them before they can deal the damage even with good micro i.e storm dogde and splits.
I actually agree that +1 speedlot timings are actually more potent against a non lurker comp zerg especially w/ reaver play than the blink stalker timing, its much more difficult to tech to muta whilst dealing w/ it.
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Thanks for the tips! Freeze and Can helped me figure it out and how to beat it 
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I think the reason TvP is so much harder for terran now is because in the BW -> Starbow changes toss got so many new ways to deal with mech which are much easier to use than what terran got to support mech (lockdown + nerve).
Things toss has now that they didn't have in BW for dealing with mech:
1. Immortals
2. Blink
3. Void Shield
4. Early Air threat
5. Air threat before carriers (like void switch mid game)
6. Mines burrow slower (helps toss a ton in battles)
7. Recall (BW nydus) to defend far expos and set up flanks
8. Warp in from prisms (to abuse immobility)
Things Terran gained in TvP:
1. Nerve Jammer
2. Long range lock down (different tech + 150 gas each not counting upgrades)
Both of the terran abilities require specialized spell casters that don't do actual damage anti-ground or anti-air and require a ton of gas and control.
The big things toss lost in TvP for toss was late game (arbiter stasis + recall) and most of the MU buffs they gained was early game. It just happens that in BW terran was weakest early game and strongest late game. Needs more games but, it seems concerning. Granted some of these things are easier to deal with than others, but overall it seems like it could create some problems.
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i've been asking about the mines..
why cant we have them to work like in broodwar?
you should be able to place mines while retreating and get some of them off on the attackers..
then the damage..
why 70vsLight 100vs armored?
why not plain 125 like in bw :D
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It wasnt plain 125, but 125 explosive damage.
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oh and some units didnt take the full 125 damage?
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On November 01 2012 20:28 Caas wrote:
oh and some units didnt take the full 125 damage?
"Units dealing explosive damage deal 100% to large units, 75% to medium units, and 50% to small units."
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a suggestion for the infestor fungal ability:
the fungal does not slow down the fire attack and movement speed.
units targeted can not use their abilities (spells) for a few seconds (7-10).
in this way it can be prevented for a few seconds that ht use storms on hydra, marine not use stimpack, and medic not heal it.
stalkers not more blinkers, vessel not use radiation, wraith not cloak, ecc...
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On October 29 2012 04:35 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:23 Eifer wrote:On October 28 2012 15:11 Traceback wrote:On October 28 2012 12:41 Ogww wrote:I'll re-install SC2 to try this out Comments later. Just remember it's a WIP. It will only get better. But no one is in the channel and people don't play it... Really? We usually have 5-10 people in the channel pretty much all the time as far as I've seen. There are streams almost every day lately.
Channel Starbow? Checked again, no one
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On November 01 2012 21:58 Eifer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:35 SmileZerg wrote:On October 29 2012 04:23 Eifer wrote:On October 28 2012 15:11 Traceback wrote:On October 28 2012 12:41 Ogww wrote:I'll re-install SC2 to try this out Comments later. Just remember it's a WIP. It will only get better. But no one is in the channel and people don't play it... Really? We usually have 5-10 people in the channel pretty much all the time as far as I've seen. There are streams almost every day lately. Channel Starbow? Checked again, no one
What time of day are you trying to find games?
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Fun ZvP.
http://drop.sc/269966
+ Show Spoiler +I played so terribly. Honestly, I should have won but played impatiently and made dumb decisions >_> Should not have left the game when I did, either. oops. GG though
Totally forgot broodlords come from mutalisks for like a minute haha. Also, ultralisks no longer deal splash (so more like BW)?
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On November 02 2012 04:07 purakushi wrote:Fun ZvP. http://drop.sc/269966+ Show Spoiler +I played so terribly. Honestly, I should have won but played impatiently and made dumb decisions >_> Should not have left the game when I did, either. oops Totally forgot broodlords come from mutalisks for like a minute haha. Also, ultralisks no longer deal splash?
They apparently didn't in Brood War either.
And I mean
O_O
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On October 31 2012 18:41 Kabel wrote:
No
oh, I was mistaken. I thought I read that somewhere in this thread. Scratch that.
Obligatory Pun: What do Terran marines and TL mods have in common:
+ Show Spoiler +
I was surprised when I saw stalkers do 14 damage to light units as well.
with +1, the 3 hit marines, normally then 4 hit instead of the expected 5 hit. Stalkers have no problem kiting marines with range, and do enough damage to pick off 1-2 each time.
Marines/bio in pvt seem lackluster because stalkers can get away easily, even without blink. On the other hand, because of clump and supply cost, mech max is strong. Stalkers just get obliterated from a few siege tank volleys. Mines are weak when clustered (I think they kill each other), but they're easy to spread around the whole map by shift clicking on minimap. When you keep getting hit by mines, then the damage starts to add up.
Mech seem pretty good, especially with in late game with lockdown versus reavers in warpprisms. Dark archon will probably become necessary from protoss. Golaiths too high air dps? 44 damage with +3, 11 golaiths one shot carriers... Vultures kinda suck lol. Except for being a bit beefer (and thus more supply effecient when maxed), they can't even handle a cannon or two at expos. I would like to see tanks + medic firebat shield wall.
Chargelot archon is very strong against mech, without any crazy simcity around the thirds. There's even a decent amount of potential micro, spliting and cloning the chargelots to all different tanks.
I would like to see if there are any significant bio pushes that can happen, otherwise protoss can go for that 1gate or 15 nexus into reaver harrass into quick third. Reaver harrass is pretty damn good. You could research nexus recall if you see terran going for fast wraith. Since nexus recall is on cooldown, there is no chronoboost lost, and plenty of nexuses to use to recall.
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On November 02 2012 04:36 Chronopolis wrote:oh, I was mistaken. I thought I read that somewhere in this thread. Scratch that. Obligatory Pun: What do Terran marines and TL mods have in common: + Show Spoiler +I was surprised when I saw stalkers do 14 damage to light units as well. with +1, the 3 hit marines, normally then 4 hit instead of the expected 5 hit. Stalkers have no problem kiting marines with range, and do enough damage to pick off 1-2 each time. Marines/bio in pvt seem lackluster because stalkers can get away easily, even without blink. On the other hand, because of clump and supply cost, mech max is strong. Stalkers just get obliterated from a few siege tank volleys. Mines are weak when clustered (I think they kill each other), but they're easy to spread around the whole map by shift clicking on minimap. When you keep getting hit by mines, then the damage starts to add up. Mech seem pretty good, especially with in late game with lockdown versus reavers in warpprisms. Dark archon will probably become necessary from protoss. Golaiths too high air dps? 44 damage with +3, 11 golaiths one shot carriers... Vultures kinda suck lol. Except for being a bit beefer (and thus more supply effecient when maxed), they can't even handle a cannon or two at expos. I would like to see tanks + medic firebat shield wall. Chargelot archon is very strong against mech, without any crazy simcity around the thirds. There's even a decent amount of potential micro, spliting and cloning the chargelots to all different tanks. I would like to see if there are any significant bio pushes that can happen, otherwise protoss can go for that 1gate or 15 nexus into reaver harrass into quick third. Reaver harrass is pretty damn good. You could research nexus recall if you see terran going for fast wraith. Since nexus recall is on cooldown, there is no chronoboost lost, and plenty of nexuses to use to recall.
Bio is supposed to suck in PvT. Stalkers/reavers are the primary counter to it.
About vultures, I answered this earlier.
Goliaths, in BW and in Starbow deal insane amount of Ground to Air damage. That is their primary role. You will never see them until a Shuttle/Air units come out.
I would like to see someone go Chargelot Archon vs a decent meching player, as it should get torn up by anyone who can micro vultures at all. Especially because "charge" is just a speed boost, not the actual charge ability.
Nexus recall is almost never used because in the time that it takes for used, they take a huge amount of damage. Often times making it worthless.
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Bio is supposed to suck in PvT?
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On November 02 2012 06:02 Danko__ wrote:
Bio is supposed to suck in PvT?
Yes, bio in SC2 PvT only exists because of the marauder. Suddenly with amazing stalkers, reavers, etc. Bio *sucks*.
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@Balance
I am aware that the balance is far from complete. Spider mines might be too weak, Goliaths might be too good vs air and a lot of other things. I am still in the phase where I try to nail down the last pieces for the races. Still some Zerg stuff to do and some minor fixes for P and T. Once I am satisfied with the foundation of the game, the next phase will really begin: Balance the stuff thats in the game!
Ps. Note that the actual DPS from Stalkers are similar in Starbow as in SC2 vs non-armored targets.
@Laertes
You have PM
@Bio in PvT
My goal is not to copy+paste the actual BW balance into this game. I do look a lot at the balance and unit interactions from BW since its a good foundation. It saves me a lot of work. But honestly, BW is not perfect...
When I say that I want to make bio viable in TvP and TvT I mean the following things:
- Give players reasons to use bio as a part of their army composition.
- Let bio offer something unique for Terran to use in TvP and TvT.
I am not saying that I try to recreate bioplay from SC2, where bio alone can win the game.
I am not trying to make Terran choose to either go bio or mech at the start of the game. Its either this or that tech path.
The ultimate would be if stuff from both tech trees could be used in the same game, in order to win. Compare it to how Protoss plays - P can get Gateway basic units, robotic units, stargate units and Templar archieves units in the same game. Cause they need it! Same goes for Z.
Though, bio has a few advantages over mech play in TvP and TvT:
- Bio is better for rushes and cheeses. (Two barrack cheese etc)
- Medic has the P-Matrix ability and Energize. (That no one uses)
- Ghosts offers Lockdown and EMP.
So we do see Terran get mech and throw in some Ghosts atleast. Maybe some medics at rare occasions. No other units in the Terran arseal can offer these spells. I just do not think that is enough. Mechplay in TvT and TvP is better in all areas, compared to marines + firebats.
Mech gives:
- Area control (from siege tanks and spider mines)
- Mobility (Vultures is right now the fastest ground unit in the game)
- The strongest ground to air unit in the game.
- They can absorb more damage than a bio army can.
Possible unique features to give bio:
- Make Marines stronger "shock troops" After all, they are the only Terran unit who can "charge" into an enemy army and deal high damage in no time. All other Terran units requires some kind of set up to be effective. They are just vey easy to nullify since they are so fragile..
- Strengthen the "tankiness" of Firebats. Medics + Firebats could really absord quite some damage and be used to stop Zealots.. and Tanks on top of that to stop stalkers..
- Give Medic another spell instead of Energize? Or strengthen it. In theory, T with Medics and Vessels would get more Nerve Jammers, Yamato guns, EMPs and Lockdown.
These are just examples. I just want to give bio some kind of edge. Right now, when a Terran goes bio vs P or T, its just a huge disadvantage..
Why?
I think the game gets more fun and "richer" if as many units/strategies/unit compositions as possible is viable in the match ups.
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I was questioning your statement that bio is supposed to suck in PvT. I didnt ask about its viability in current state of game.
Bio is supposed to suck in that matchup?
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On November 02 2012 07:00 Danko__ wrote:
I was questioning your statement that bio is supposed to suck in PvT. I didnt ask about its viability in current state of game.
Bio is supposed to suck in that matchup?
It is assumed to suck. 'Suppose' has multiple different meanings you know.
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EPT
