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Canada5565 Posts
graphics by SilverskY ♥
There are a lot of passionate people in the Team Liquid community. Everyday we see threads about StarCraft cooking, GSL statistics, or recent global events. It is the people who make these – people like you – that perpetuate Team Liquid culture and make it a cool community. We are lucky to have many contributors to inspire us, teach us, and be comrades, of a sort. Ninety-nine percent of these people are not part of the handful of personalities you see on streams, or even part of Team Liquid staff. They are people that you correspond with everyday on the forums, chat with in IRC, and bad manner on B.net. Unfortunately, with the mass of active Team Liquid users and eSports fans, it is not always easy to appreciate these unsung heroes, and too often their work goes unnoticed.
With Community Interviews I am going to put the spotlight on some of the contributors, artists, and fans that have made the Team Liquid community interesting and warm. If you guys have any suggestions or demands(!) for questions or interviewees, please post them. I know that a lot of people have slipped under my radar. The only people that I will not interview are super-popular community figures, like Day[9] and Hot_Bid.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/ProdigCMHeader.png)
ProdiG
Joined TL.net: January 7th, 2010
Total Posts: 1797
Most Active Forum: StarCraft 2 Maps & Custom Games (42% of posts)
Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision
Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/prodiGsc
Why he was interviewed: ProdiG is one of our foremost map makers. One of the oldest pillars in the map making community, he has been making maps since the release of the Galaxy Editor. His show, MapCraft: State of the Terrain, and streaming of the map making process were bold steps towards bringing maps into the limelight. As a member of the ESV Map Making Team, his work is regularly featured on the popular ESV TV Korean Weekly tournament. He has long advocated the use of custom maps in tournaments and is one of the few people who knows the ins and outs of map making.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/ProdigIntHeader.png)
<style type="text/css">.lightbigbox { margin: 0 auto; width: 540px; padding: 20px; background: #ebeff2; border-radius:8px; -webkit-border-radius: 8px; -moz-border-radius: 8px; } .Q { color: #00005D }</style><div class="lightbigbox"><span class="Q">Hey Prodig! How's life? Made any cool maps lately?</span>
prodiG: Life is good. Starting some new endeavors which hopefully work out. I recently finished my latest map (2) ESV Edge of Oblivion, a two player map with a very experimental concept (that I'm already considering overhauling)
<span class="Q">What is the current state of StarCraft 2 maps? What are your most and least favorite of Blizzard made maps and user made maps?</span>
P: I personally feel that the current state of SC2 maps leaves a lot to be desired. There is a thriving active custom mapmaking community that doesn't seem to get a lot of love. There's definitely been a lot of progress recently from things like the TeamLiquid Mapmaking Contest or the IPL map contest, but (and I hate to sound high-maintenance/needy) it bothers me that it's taken the community a year and a half before getting to the point it's at now. We're going into SC2 with over a decade of BW behind us, why are we forgetting what custom maps did for BW? There's tons of evidence supporting the fact that you can get better SC2 games for both the players and spectators when you play on a well-designed and properly tested custom made map and in my opinion that logic alone should have been enough to see every Blizzard map removed from every map pool ever.
I'm sure it comes as no surprise that my most hated Blizzard map is Metalopolis. Please, let it die already... StarCraft is not a game that works well with maps that have been played for over a single tournament season or two. As far as favorites are concerned, Antiga Shipyard seems to be alright. It's got its issues but I don't cringe when I see that map pop up on my loading screen after a ladder queue.
For custom maps, ESV Sanshorn Mist AE takes the cake. The map is a remake of Sanshorn Mist, made in the SC2 Beta by Konicki (now retired). The original was far ahead of its time and this remake fixes aesthetic and balance issues. The ESVTV/Twitch.TV Korean Weekly has had countless amazing games on this map and I think players are only beginning to skim the surface. As for least favorite custom map, I think it's too hard to single just one out here! There's definitely some duds out there (some of my maps included)...
<span class="Q">Many of the new features in StarCraft 2 like improved unit pathing and larger control groups has made it clear that Brood War map design will not work for StarCraft 2. Considering large control groups and improved unit pathing among other things, how should we approach criticizing and making StarCraft 2 maps?</span>
P: The biggest difference is in proportions. They're COMPLETELY different in SC2, almost entirely untransferrable. "Open areas" in SC2 don't need to take as much physical space on a map as it did in Brood War. Beyond that, there's also balance. Make a map too open and it's too Zerg favored, make it too choked and it becomes too anti-Zerg. Some of the key things that I think SC2 is missing right now is first and foremost feedback. To this day it's pretty challenging to get useful feedback from reputable sources (progamers who can look at a map and say "this doesn't work because of this issue" rather than "I think this map is Terran favored, kthxbai."). Beyond that, mapmakers just now (including myself) are realizing that success lies in simplicity, not overly complex maps that are packed with innovative features. Looking back at Brood War, some of the most simple maps were amongst the most popular of all time. Take Fighting Spirit for example. It has the most generic expansion layout and the features of the map are very simple: all of the expansions have chokes leading into them, but the rest of the map is a big open playground. That being said, innovative and complex maps still have their place as they did in Brood War. Destination, Match Point and Outsider for example were maps that had a lot of interesting features throughout the map and I can't help but feel we're not even close to seeing such genius creations in SC2 yet (which is another rant for another time).
<span class="Q">Are there any ignored, undiscovered or underused map attributes that could revolutionize the game, for both spectators and players? Are 300x300 maps the next big thing? *cough*yes*cough*</span>
P: Well... 300x300 maps can't actually be made, the max is 256x256  There's definitely undiscovered or underused attributes, there's no way around it - there's simply too many permutations and combinations that you can create for a melee map. One of the things that I've tried to experiment with whenever I can is Destructible Xel'Naga Watchtowers - the idea behind it being that they offer the choice of either vision of a crucial section of the map, or an expansion. The problem with this is it's a custom-made unit and causes the map to classify as "Custom" instead of "Melee," but unlike Brood War this only affects what you see when you search for Custom and Melee maps via lists on Battle.Net, which almost nobody does for melee maps (it's all done by searching for the mapname itself - the game will still play exactly as a Melee SC2 game). Some people/organizations are pretty anal about it but I personally think it's just holding back the potential for interesting things in SC2.
<span class="Q">How much of a factor do you think maps play in the entertainment value and general success of tournaments?</span>
P: As a spectator, I value things in this order: Player Skill/Talent/Gosu-ness, Map, Commentary. There's a reason why I pay way more attention to the Korean scene than the foreign scene: because they play on average better SC2 games on better maps. As far as I'm concerned, commentary is a bonus (years of watching MSL/OSL , HLTV, Q3 GTV, BW Reps, etc have un-spoiled me I guess). A lot of people seem to value entertainment value based primarily on commentary or the player him/herself and to each there own, but one thing seems universally common amongst the majority of SC2 players I meet: They don't respect maps the way someone coming from say a BW background does. The most common trends I've seen both on and offline will be discussion of balance and while that obviously has it's own merit in both BW and SC2, they seem to overlook the potential for things like new and exciting playstyles or a map-specific opening. My absolute favorite tournaments/events to watch are GSL and Korean Weekly because they both have the cream of the crop when it comes to SC2 players and the map pool is constantly fresh and exciting, there's always something new for me to see. The last thing I want to see is yet another generic macro game on Metalopolis. (AXE THAT CRAP ALREADY > !!! )
<span class="Q">You've made quite a few maps in your time. Can user made maps be good enough to replace Blizzard made maps on the eSports level, and if so, how should tournaments go about incoporating them into their map pool?</span>
P: There are many issues involved like balance and the limit experience of pros on non-ladder maps. In my opinion, user-made maps are already good enough to replace Blizzard made maps on the eSports level for MANY reasons. The first of which is overall gameplay: User-made maps have been beating Blizzard maps since practically day one as far as exciting gameplay is concerned for both the players and spectators. Secondly, balance: A high-level mapmaker will take every balance issue very seriously and work to make sure the map is as close to balanced as possible (closed to balanced being 45-55 or at worst 60-40). For example, GSL recently removed Gold expansions from every single map in it's map pool because they determined that it was one of factors contributing to Terran's overwhelming success. Blizzard on the other hand often waits until the end of a ladder season (which up until recently could last longer than six months for all we knew) or not change the issue at all. Finally, bugfixes: Every map will have a bug from time to time. A cliff that wasn't supposed to be pathable turns out to be pathable, a mineral patch is slightly mis-placed, etc. Mapmakers will fix issues like that as soon as they hear about them - for example, the ESV Map Team strives for a 24-hour turnaround on bug reports and for the most part we hit it within the first 4 hours. Blizzard again might not fix the issue at all and instead decide to axe the map in a later season (did you know you can park a tank in one of the thirds on the ladder version of Antiga Shipyard and siege one of your opponent's geysers in his main if you have vision? this is a two minute fix, I did it myself.
The ideal way for tournaments to incorporate maps into their map pool is simply to keep an eye open for new and interesting maps (this means having staff that's not in Bronze league picking your map pool *ahem*). From there, they can open up a dialogue with the mapmaker or mapmaking team they represent and sey "Hey, we're considering using your map in a tournament map pool. Can you make sure it's up on these servers and is as bug free as possible/give us the map file for us to publish ourselves?" From there, the tournament organizers can take feedback from the players - balance concerns, bug fixes, etc. and pass it along to the mapmaker so they can fix the map and continue testing until everyone is happy. This is exactly what we try to do with the ESV map team and the Korean Weekly, and this is exactly what GSL does with Crux.
This obviously involves some risk for the organizer. They need to put up a decent amount of prizes to attract some reputable sources to provide feedback (Nestea will be able to give me much more useful information as a mapmaker than Joe Bronze) and if it turns out all of the maps they pick suck, it will tarnish their name and they'll have a harder time growing in the future. There is also the issue of backlash from the players - at the moment, SC2 is in a state where the map pools don't rotate very often. Trying to get players to play on new maps can be hard, even when there is a lot of incentive. You run the risk of alienating a lot of people which if you're trying to run your event as a business is essentially a lost customer. This is in my opinion the fault of everyone collectively: Tournaments didn't pick custom maps up early enough, Blizzard didn't add custom maps to their ladder pool because they wanted to balance the game and now a year and a half has passed and we're in a rut where all people want to play on is Metalopolis because that's what they know.
That answer turned into a bit of a rant, so I'll summarize with this: Organizers are going to have to jump the gun sooner or later and basically say "Here's your massive prize pool, here's your maps for the event. Practice them if you want to win" - That, or some kind of progamer revolution where everyone unanimously boycotts any tournament with a Blizzard map in it (DIE METALOPOLIS >!!!! )
<span class="Q">The IPL Map Tournament and TeamLiquid Map Contest are two examples of a renewed interest in maps, but things like tournament map pools still get surprisingly little attention or critique. How can we push maps into the spotlight and put pressure on tournaments to change their map pools? Why are people usually so apathetic towards the subject?</span>
P: One of the main reasons I think people are so apathetic to the subject because of how inaccessible the maps are. Battle.net 2.0 makes it very difficult to find a pickup game of a custom map unless it's very high in popularity, which is counterproductive since the most popular maps are the most accessible (aka, ladder maps). As unfortunate as it is, it's something we have to live with. The more people that come to realize just how much a well-made SC2 map can add to the game, the more I think demand for those well-made custom maps will increase. After that it's just a matter of being vocal about it: IPL, TL and Blizzard say they want well-made custom maps and they got them. Now all we need is the rest of the community to follow suit. Viva la revolution!
<span class="Q">How long can a map stay in circulation before it becomes stale? Is it the job of eSports organizations to come up with new eSports maps, or is that Blizzard's responsibility? Metalopolis has been around since beta while other maps have come and gone.</span>
P: In my opinion the absolute longest stretch of time a map should stay in any map pool should be six months. Ideally, you'd see a map pool rotate in one or two new maps in every three months and rotate the oldest out. There's nothing saying a map can come back after a relatively long hiatus for a little while. In my opinion, the perfect world would have both Blizzard and eSports organizations outsourcing their mapmaking efforts to various well-established teams. There's potential for money to be made here (why is there not a pepsi ad on my loading screen for GSL Dual Sight or a billboard/sign doodad on Daybreak for Sony Ericsson? I'm okay with that so long as Blizzard is.) eSports organizations and Blizzard can gather demand. Mapmaking teams can deliver the product. Let's make it happen!
<span class="Q">Do you think that map makers and tournament organizations should, like KeSPA, try to balance the game through custom map pools? How much of balance whine at the professional level can we attribute to maps?</span>
P: I don't think it's possible NOT to balance the game through maps & map pools. Some maps are inherently better for one race than another - That's why StarCraft is great. Not every race is the same. Picture this scenario: You have two relatively evenly skilled players, one Zerg and one Terran. They're about to play a best of 3 on three seperate maps: one Zerg favored (60-40 zvt), one Terran favored (60-40 tvz) and one that's balanced (50-50) played in that order. Before the match even starts, there's a story to be told here. Will the Zerg player 2-0 his opponent and beat him on the T favored map? will it go 1-1 and move to an exciting battle of wits on the balanced third map? Find out on the next episode of <awesome SC2 show>.
As far as balance whine is concerned, I think you can attribute some of it to the maps and some of it to the state of the game overall. One minute Protoss is eating everyone alive, the next minute Terran is laughing at everyone and then Zerg comes out of nowhere and stomps everything. That's how StarCraft works. However, consistent trends over time (Terran dominating GSL for multiple seasons consecutively on multiple map pools) indicates a problem in any of the variables that remained consistent (Are the Terrans just better? Do ALL of the maps have Terran favored features? Is Terran simply better than Z/P in SC2?). All mapmakers can do is change the maps in some way or another and see if that helps change things.
<span class="Q">If you could meet one progamer (except Boxer) in real life, who would it be and why?</span>
P: I think it's a three-way tie between White-Ra, Cooller (Quake player, think Russian Quake-playing version of White-Ra) and Flash. All of those guys are so ridiculously talented it's impossible to pick!
<span class="Q">What is your biggest pet peeve when it comes to commentators?</span>
P: A lack of enthusiasm. I've recently gotten more and more involved in the fighting game community and the commentators there are very good at making hype moments truly feel like hype moments when I'm at home - it doesn't sound fake, these guys sound legitimately excited at what's going on. I feel like a lot of commentators in SC2 don't do that well. Have you ever listened to Korean commentary? Those guys bring the hype. I miss that.
<span class="Q">The year is 2013. The best StarCraft 2 team in the world is?</span>
P: My money's on SlayerS. Everywhere I look, those guys are ahead of the curve. They might not have MVP or Nestea, but overall their talent pool blows every other team out of the water and I don't think that's going to change with a guy like Boxer spearheading it.
<span class="Q">Is Kpop an integral part of eSports or does it alienate foreign fans?</span>
P: Serious answer? It's a community thing. Only in online SC communities will you find this kind of love for Kpop outside of Korea. If by "foreign fan" you mean my Hockey buddy from college who heard about that there StarCrafts thing and is checking out a barcraft event where he saw a bunch of yuppies bouncing around to gee~ he might shudder and never try to be a part of that community again. The same could go for anything unorthodox like that though!
<span class="Q">If you could be Liquid`Nazgul for one day, what would you do?</span>
P: sasdfaasdfertasdjfoin ummmm... Let's see... Throw bazillions of dollars at the mapmaking community and blow it up!
<span class="Q">Final thoughts?</span>
P: I know I gripe and groan a lot about maps and stuff (DIE METALOPOLIS DIE) but at the end of the day, StarCraft and eSports is something I have a passion for and I just want to see it exceed its potential. Thanks for letting me do this interview, I hope it was educational 
Thanks for waiting prodiG!! This took a while to get out -_-;
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Insightful interview. prodiG is a boss, and the SC2 mapmaking community deserves more attention.
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Sick interview!
Edit: Also so glad Sanshorn is working out so well! Hate to brag but I bitched at the team FOREVER to remake that map saying it'd work ^^!
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very good read and he has a point, sc2 mapmaking community do need more attention
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Nice to see the mapmakers get some cred, nice interview as well. I definitely agree with your commentator hype statement. I feel a lot of it is faked, especially from people like Shout[9], or it's just too dry from others("well..expect GG here i guess...")
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Haha pretty cool interview, and I do agree custom maps should be integrated more into completions the Blizzard maps, just look at Brood War ><
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Blizzard needs to throw money at you, for the sake of their game, and for the sake of the eyes of TLers reading pages upon PAGES of balance QQ (though some is warranted).
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Also btw these "unsung heroes" style interviews are awesome, keep them up!
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We're going into SC2 with over a decade of BW behind us, why are we forgetting what custom maps did for BW? There's tons of evidence supporting the fact that you can get better SC2 games for both the players and spectators when you play on a well-designed and properly tested custom made map and in my opinion that logic alone should have been enough to see every Blizzard map removed from every map pool ever.
A thousand times yes.
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Preaty interested the part about sponsors on the maps, coulb be a good venue to approch
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On November 27 2011 19:17 Darkren wrote:
Preaty interested the part about sponsors on the maps, coulb be a good venue to approch
It's been tried, tournaments change or flat out refuse to use loading screens, it's a MASSIVE f-ing problem tbh. Since only GSL and PTSL pay ANYTHING for ANYTHING map related it leaves no viable business or long term sponsorship potential. It's actually REALLY bad for mapmakers right now
Edit: I am just actually referring to loading screens here, right now ads on maps is something that Blizz is concerned about. Anyways the loading screen would be the best ad spot to not ruin viewer immersion.
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Great interview, more custom maps in tournaments please! ( Die meta die :D )
Calm before the storm for example is my favorite map to watch games on in the GSL now.
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Good Interview! Thanks for all efforts and hard work, Mapmakers out there!
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Good interview. I love the map community and wish I had the time to focus on it as they do. Keep it up guys, you will get more recognition.
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Good read hopefully we will see more custom maps in tournaments by these awesome mapmakers !!
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good interview series, thanks!
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Great read, 100% agree on almost all points. The most important point I felt is that SC2 players need to be less stubborn and more open to play on new maps and engage with the custom map community. Otherwise what hope does the community have to develop SC2's maps and map pool? The success of Tal'Darim Altar, Crevasse, Dual Sight and countless custom-made korean maps in the GSL should open people's eyes to the potential for community maps to be utilized in tournament setting at the highest level.
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Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
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Quit mapmaking for 6 months -> get a community interview.
Such dedication.
User was warned for this post
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You are from my perspective. Blizzard maps are just a bandaid while we wait for acceptance of quality maps.
I loved the rant. Great to read about you prodiG! Thanks for taking the time to share a bit with us!
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On November 27 2011 21:51 funcmode wrote:
Quit mapmaking for 6 months -> get a community interview.
Such dedication.
Stay classy Mr Inactive^^
Great interview, thx : )
Good to see that mapmakers and mapmaking gets more attention from the TL staff lately!
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I think tournaments such as MLG should consider a different system with maps for next season. Almost every ZvT a map is played on Xel Naga or Shattered Temple, I just feel like the MLG map pool is really boring and generic with so many slightly adjusted ladder maps in the pool.
I even think a six month period as prodiG suggest is too long for a map to stay in the pool. I'd much rather have it be like 3-4 months max. I'm feeling Shakuras and Tal'Darim are starting to get really boring and they need to be replaced in my opinion. And I think GSL is doing the right thing updating the map pool so often, it makes the game a lot more interesting. Also it creates something new and excitingly unknown about a new season if it's played on a new set of maps.
Announcing a new season with new maps is exciting for me as a spectator, makes it feel like something a bit more significant rather than just an exact copy of last season. If all seasons are played on same maps, whats the point in having new seasons?
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On November 27 2011 21:51 funcmode wrote:
Quit mapmaking for 6 months -> get a community interview.
Such dedication.
Have you made it your life long goal to piss on everyone else's achievements in the mapmaking community? Everytime I see you post it seems to be some form of smug snide remark at someone being rewarded with something that you weren't. If you want to be respected or appreciated in this community you need to get over your stupid entitlement issues and accept that people will be rewarded for more than just their dedication to mapmaking, and that just because you've spent X amount of hours or whatever the fuck doesn't make you automatically entitled to the respect and adoration of the community. TL;DR Grow up.
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I fully approve this interview. Oh and...
On November 27 2011 18:41 Xxio wrote:
If you could be Liquid`Nazgul for one day, what would you do?
P: sasdfaasdfertasdjfoin ummmm... Let's see... Throw bazillions of dollars at the mapmaking community and blow it up!
I trust you Nazgul! :D
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Such a good read and I'm with him 100%.
"Organizers are going to have to jump the gun sooner or later and basically say "Here's your massive prize pool, here's your maps for the event. Practice them if you want to win" - THIS THIS THIS!
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Great interview TL, thnx for the great maps prodiG!
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Good intereview. I hope we see more of these. I sense map revolution in there air!
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Thanks for the interview!
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United States4796 Posts
Great read. An awesome member of our community. Do blahz0r next! :D
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On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
Yep, only you.
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On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
I stand by what I said. If there legitimately are people out there who think this "is one of the best maps" then the community's baseline for map quality is at an all-time low and the fact that it's so hard to get custom maps into tournaments is completely ass-backwards.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 27 2011 21:51 funcmode wrote:
Quit mapmaking for 6 months -> get a community interview.
Such dedication. <3 you too
On November 27 2011 22:14 mnck wrote:
I think tournaments such as MLG should consider a different system with maps for next season. Almost every ZvT a map is played on Xel Naga or Shattered Temple, I just feel like the MLG map pool is really boring and generic with so many slightly adjusted ladder maps in the pool.
I even think a six month period as prodiG suggest is too long for a map to stay in the pool. I'd much rather have it be like 3-4 months max. I'm feeling Shakuras and Tal'Darim are starting to get really boring and they need to be replaced in my opinion. And I think GSL is doing the right thing updating the map pool so often, it makes the game a lot more interesting. Also it creates something new and excitingly unknown about a new season if it's played on a new set of maps.
Announcing a new season with new maps is exciting for me as a spectator, makes it feel like something a bit more significant rather than just an exact copy of last season. If all seasons are played on same maps, whats the point in having new seasons?
I'm inclined to agree. The main reason I suggested six months is to ease people into a format where maps are constantly being changed. 3-4 months would work great but at the moment that would be such a drastic change for the community the backlash would be huge.
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On November 28 2011 01:23 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times? Yep, only you.
Indeed lol, I think its only you. Metalopolis is one of the best Blizzard maps- we have a TON of community maps that are much better.
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Sick interview. This was a really good read, agreed with pretty much everything ProdiG said.
On November 27 2011 19:09 Diamond wrote:
Also btw these "unsung heroes" style interviews are awesome, keep them up!
This x100. I feel that these kinds of interviews are great for the community, and for the people that deserve more attention than they receive.
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On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
I doubt the only one, but it's just not that great a map and after a year and a half, I'm fucking sick of it
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Metalopolis still gives nice games, as opposed to Xel Naga Caverns.
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I would love to know why the star of the day thinks Metalopolis is such a bad map...Nice interview btw
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On November 28 2011 02:23 Grumbels wrote:
Metalopolis still gives nice games, as opposed to Xel Naga Caverns.
I kinda see people wanting Metalopolis to stay in the game not because Meta is good, but Blizzard map makers are terrible and simply aren't improving, I mean after all the time they've had to learn about map making they decide to bring out slag pits, people are scared because new Blizzard maps could entail 1,000,000 new ways to abuse siege tanks.
If people knew that GSL/ICCUP mapmakers were making the maps it would be a completely different story.
On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
There's this place called battle.net which is full of posters like you, I think you'd fit right in.
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HAHAHA I was thinking the same thing about metalopolis last night. SC2 map pool is stale. I mean look at BW, new map pool in proleague constantly. I mean seriously people? WE HAVE FUKIN METALOPOLIS FROM THE BETA!!! WTF! Change up the map pool people.
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On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times?
I concur I've had many great TvZ's and TvP's master level 20-40 min macro games on that beautiful map. Not sure why it garners so much hate especially now that close positions removed.
I think a few of the Blizzard Ladder maps are awesome Metalop, Taldarim, Shakuras
Of course map-makers are going to want their maps to gain exposure etc.
It's all subjective what people think about maps anyways too many permutations and probabilities factor into balance map design. No map will ever be correct due to these factors
I'd really like to see huge maps like in BW is Taldarim 256x256? Would be nice if we could get 300x300 or larger maps make it happen Blizzard
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Hyrule19029 Posts
I love how most of his answers end in "die metalopolis!"
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Metal not a bad map strictly speaking. But its figured out and boring as help from a spectator standpoint. Even the long macro games. Thus it is killing eSports. Great interview prodiG.
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I just don't get what's so bad about metalopolis. There was a thread a few weeks back about the map and for instance Sheth said it was a good map.
On November 14 2011 12:08 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Because its a great map. You can't really talk about "Balanced maps" in Blizzard's ladder as there is still no Supply depots blocking ramps there. However in big tournaments sometimes they want maps that are slightly favored to other races. Having Shakuras and other maps that are somewhat Anti-Zerg in the map pool should balance this out. As a player and an observer I find Metal also gives some of the most interesting games. I also feel that it does slightly favor zerg, so its not necessarily "perfectly balanced", but then again most maps lean one way or another. Anyway whether or not you think its a balanced map, I'm sure we can all agree its definitely a good nostalgic map
The map still allows for innovative tactics involving the high ground. Variety of gameplay depending on spawning positions that is not that imbalanced. Fairly balanced win rates. Macro games. Nice aesthetics.
I honestly never get the hate for it, maybe someone can explain it to me, but I just don't get it. Is it just that it's an old map by now? ProdiG keeps saying it's a bad map, not that it's an old map, so I don't think that's his position at least.
I think maps like XNC, Shattered Temple and Shakuras are far more stale. Perhaps we could devote our attention to those maps before hating on metalopolis? I agree better maps than metal do exist, but it's by far not the worst map in existence. Certainly not something to hold up as a prime example of awfulness, as ProdiG does.
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On November 28 2011 02:44 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times? I concur I've had many great TvZ's and TvP's master level 20-40 min macro games on that beautiful map. Not sure why it garners so much hate especially now that close positions removed. I think a few of the Blizzard Ladder maps are awesome Metalop, Taldarim, Shakuras Of course map-makers are going to want their maps to gain exposure etc. It's all subjective what people think about maps anyways too many permutations and probabilities factor into balance map design. No map will ever be correct due to these factors I'd really like to see huge maps like in BW is Taldarim 256x256? Would be nice if we could get 300x300 or larger maps make it happen Blizzard
Your argument is that because you have had so many great games on it, it makes Metal a great map. How many games have you played on community maps? Metal is the best we have right now (as sad as that is). That doesn't mean it's the best there ever will be. FAR from it.
And it's fucking old man, almost two years since beta was launched. Get tae fuck Metal
And true, no map will ever be 'correct', but some maps can be more correct than others
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On November 27 2011 19:25 Dodgin wrote:
Great interview, more custom maps in tournaments please! ( Die meta die :D )
Calm before the storm for example is my favorite map to watch games on in the GSL now.
Definitely Calm before the Storm is probably the best map I've seen so far. I've played quite a few KOTH's on it it's an amazing map. Whoever that Prime guy who created it he's really got some cool map designs. I'm hoping Blizzard adds it to Ladder
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Good read, interresting view point of someone so intwined with map making. Personally I never really looked at map making all that much, and I certainly haven't shown appreciation for good maps :/ I guess I'm too used to whining about bad maps that I forget there are good ones out there.
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On November 28 2011 03:09 Eishi_Ki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 02:44 XRaDiiX wrote:On November 27 2011 21:21 Zeon0 wrote:
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps, stop hating
or am I the only one who wants to punch him in the face for mentioning Meta is bad 10 times? I concur I've had many great TvZ's and TvP's master level 20-40 min macro games on that beautiful map. Not sure why it garners so much hate especially now that close positions removed. I think a few of the Blizzard Ladder maps are awesome Metalop, Taldarim, Shakuras Of course map-makers are going to want their maps to gain exposure etc. It's all subjective what people think about maps anyways too many permutations and probabilities factor into balance map design. No map will ever be correct due to these factors I'd really like to see huge maps like in BW is Taldarim 256x256? Would be nice if we could get 300x300 or larger maps make it happen Blizzard Your argument is that because you have had so many great games on it, it makes Metal a great map. How many games have you played on community maps? Metal is the best we have right now (as sad as that is). That doesn't mean it's the best there ever will be. FAR from it. And it's fucking old man, almost two years since beta was launched. Get tae fuck Metal And true, no map will ever be 'correct', but some maps can be more correct than others
Yea I jus meant it's a really good fun enjoyable map Metalopolis that is of course everyone has their own opinions of it all being subjective at that.
I would love to see new custom made community maps replace them eventually. I still think the older maps should not be forgotten forever though!
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I'd really like to see huge maps like in BW is Taldarim 256x256?
Taldarim is 176x176 and doesn't use its space very effectively. 256x256 is over twice the size of taldarim.
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That was a very nice interview. I like his opinions.
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On November 28 2011 04:00 Zolek wrote:Taldarim is 176x176 and doesn't use its space very effectively. 256x256 is over twice the size of taldarim.
Nice nice so there is a possibility to huge maps like in BW
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On November 28 2011 04:16 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 04:00 Zolek wrote:I'd really like to see huge maps like in BW is Taldarim 256x256? Taldarim is 176x176 and doesn't use its space very effectively. 256x256 is over twice the size of taldarim. Nice nice so there is a possibility to huge maps like in BW
Actually, Tal'Darim is bigger than most BW maps. I think the avarage size of competitive BW maps is ~128x128.
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At this point I don't know why Blizzard hasn't shown more concern about maps. Is it ignorance? Incompetence? The fact that they think there need to be (painfully imbalanced) "rush maps" designed simply for lower-level players is appalling. Maybe they are so caught up in balancing the game they don't realize that good, balanced maps are half the battle.
If we give up the ladder maps as an unachievable goal, the onus is placed solely on tournament organizers to show no respect to Blizzard-made maps and completely ignore them. It'd be a sad state of affairs if the ladder was devoid of quality maps, but maybe the community would have more leverage and force Blizzard to make changes. We have the power! Boycott Blizzard maps!
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Great to see his continued level of involvement!
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I think LSPRIME's maps should be ladder maps... his recent creation, calm before the storm is so fun to play on and feels really balanced as well as creates exciting games when we see pros play long macro games on them.
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On November 28 2011 04:27 rift wrote:
At this point I don't know why Blizzard hasn't shown more concern about maps. Is it ignorance? Incompetence? The fact that they think there need to be (painfully imbalanced) "rush maps" designed simply for lower-level players is appalling. Maybe they are so caught up in balancing the game they don't realize that good, balanced maps are half the battle.
If we give up the ladder maps as an unachievable goal, the onus is placed solely on tournament organizers to show no respect to Blizzard-made maps and completely ignore them. It'd be a sad state of affairs if the ladder was devoid of quality maps, but maybe the community would have more leverage and force Blizzard to make changes. We have the power! Boycott Blizzard maps!
It will never happen.
It's been almost two years(?) since beta and they still have not improved their dumb-as-fuck custom map system.
HotS is right around the corner and of course, they will want to provide maps that showcase their new units, abilities, map features (cough*constructable rocks), so even that drives the dagger in further into the community made system.
And even when they do accept community maps, they will of course be altered to fit their standards. Their modification of tal darim, for example. And do you think they're happy that golds are being removed from maps? I can't even begin to fathom how many desks Browder has flipped.
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prodiG isn't as involved as he used to be, but he has some of the best knowledge a map-maker can attain. This is a fact.
Also, stop bashing on him that he doesn't like metalopolis. He has his own reasons for disliking the map, and some of you are relentless trying to figure out why a "good" map can be hated so much. Leave it be at his own opinion, but don't flame him or try to figure out the mystery in it all.
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On November 28 2011 04:51 FidoDido wrote:
I think LSPRIME's maps should be ladder maps... his recent creation, calm before the storm is so fun to play on and feels really balanced as well as creates exciting games when we see pros play long macro games on them.
LS didn't make Calm before the Storm, that was Jacky. And neither did he make the best 2p map used in tournaments so far, Daybreak, that one is by winpark.
LS isn't the only good Korean mapmaker and the Koreans aren't the only good mapmakers in the world.
Yet only they get real support by a big organization!
Also about Metalopolis: There is a reason all the Zergs picked it all the time @ Dreamhack and there is a reason Sheth says it's a good map. The natural is just super open which makes it a hard map to defend allins and busts when you FE.
Also the map can go to ridiculous split map scenarios which are very stale (unlike maps like Tal'Darim or Daybreak which can't be split and allow dynamic army movement even in very lategame).
Additionally 4p mirrored with close positions disabled is just bad design cos since the 4th/5th bases on Meta are just nat/main of another empty starting position they are suboptimal.
Last but not least the asymmetry on this map is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. I don't rly understand why people don't flip tables left and right when they see how imba the starting positions are.
Meta was an okay map for the first year of SC2 but it's removal from tournament map pools is long overdue, it's neither an excellent map nor is it new and fresh. We are just nostalgic cos some epic games happened on this map, but it's time to move on!
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A really interesting interview. I would love to join Prodig revolutionary movement, dead to Metalopolis! Dead to K-pop too!
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On November 27 2011 21:51 funcmode wrote:
Quit mapmaking for 6 months -> get a community interview.
Such dedication.
User was warned for this post
Func, if you honestly can't get over yourself and grow a pair, then at least remove the TPW from your signature next time.
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Don't forget people, you can't just throw in larger and larger maps as the larger they get the more zerg-favored they become. If rushes become obsolete on 256x256 maps then zerg has an inherent advantage with larva injects. :X
so yeah, it's definitely a delicate process that doesn't just rely on "MAKE EM BIGGGEERR." I don't know what exactly, but I hope these new custom maps answer that for me. ^^
The idea of destructible xel'naga towers sounds really interesting:
imagine a scenario where enemy army is advancing - kill the xel'naga tower so that he essentially moves his army out into the dark, BUT WAIT, he stops his army for a few seconds and in those seconds you set up a nice contain/flank on his army out in the middle of nowhere (Z,T, or P) and pincer the army with your tanks/speedlots/roachling/etc.
I mean, how BADASS would that be? That's only one of a few but extremely effective scenarios that could occur with such an interesting mechanic!
Maybe if the tower continually respawned as well, it could present with a dynamic form of map control that the two players desperately fight over? WHO KNOWS.... ^o^
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I have a big suggestion for another interview.
Grab a couple members from each map team (ESV, TPW, MCL, Mabye Crux), and bring them all in a room and just go around to each of us and ask questions, or ask a general question and report each of our answers. Make it about maps! Get the mapping teams together for a universal interview about MAPS. This would be awesome I think.
EDIT: This is a similar idea back when teamliquid interviewed korean map-makers about Map of the month.
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KPop is extremely irritating to listen too. It's a niche thing that some people seem to enjoy. I really wish people would just get over it already.
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I support his demand to kill Metalopolis good interview dude and I love to custom maps with a friend. I also tried to make a map by myself and failed at the easiest tasks. much respect and please keep putting out good maps.
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Canada1169 Posts
Totally in favor of freshening up the map pools. I'm starting to get quite bored of the map pool and really i kinda want to see foreign tourneys use Calm Before the Storm. :D
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Valhalla18444 Posts
josh :D <3
this guy rules, many good times had so far in edmonton & many more in the future. i love my lil' fighting game convert, even if he does use a Hitbox & only plays silly Marvel
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Wait a minute... I swear a played a guy in beta named prodiG and he got really mad and called me a terrible player because I went muta/ling/baneling against mech.
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On November 28 2011 13:09 afiddy wrote:
Wait a minute... I swear a played a guy in beta named prodiG and he got really mad and called me a terrible player because I went muta/ling/baneling against mech.
Your point being? People sometimes get mad in SC2?
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On November 28 2011 14:04 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 13:09 afiddy wrote:
Wait a minute... I swear a played a guy in beta named prodiG and he got really mad and called me a terrible player because I went muta/ling/baneling against mech. Your point being? People sometimes get mad in SC2?
Sounds like me, I was pretty BM in the beta haha.
As far as Metal is concerned just to clear things up my #1 beef with it is how long it's been used for. Beyond that, sure you can have fun macro games on it but there's an opportunity cost associated with the map being used. Every game in a tournament being played on that map is a game that ISN'T on a better, more exciting and interesting custom map.
As a mapmaker, it pisses me off because there's a lot of things that are considered unacceptable in my opinion. Needing to block close positions is a bandaid solution to a poor design. Also, the map isn't even symmetrical (and not in a cool way, just in a we-had-no-idea-what-we-were-doing-when-we-made-this-map way).
I could go on and on but there it is~
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i am pretty sure the asymmetry on meta/lt were no accident, unlike antiga shipyard, where they just fucked up copy/paste.
in art school they teach that perfect symmetry is boring and professionals will always try to break symmetry in a couple spots.
i personally think meta is maybe the second best blizzard map ever. it just has been in the map pool for way too long.
imho players and tournaments should be more open to new maps or they will eventually lose viewers and money.
for example: during dreamhack if there were multiple streams running, 1 on metalopolis and 1 on daybreak, i would always watch the match on daybreak.
i think from a business point of view, it is a problem that so many things are run by players. there is so much that could/must be done in esports to imrpove the viewers experience. and i am not just talking updating map pools on a regular basis, it is also the super complicated bracket systems that are never properly displayed/explained to the viewers, bad schedules or lack of inbetween content, etc.
Everyone seems to want larger audiences and more price money, but there is too little effort to actually attract new/more viewers.
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Great interview
However, ESV Edge of Oblivion is not very well balanced as the natural is way too open and subject to all sorts of attacks.
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On November 29 2011 00:40 zmansman17 wrote:
Great interview
However, ESV Edge of Oblivion is not very well balanced as the natural is way too open and subject to all sorts of attacks.
It's already under redesign 
EDIT: I feel like I didn't give this image enough attention in the interview (Courtesy of @StereoDVT, graphics wizard)
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7oBIJmy-qtI/TppPZA8eENI/AAAAAAAAA7o/Wn49C4novPk/s640/Anti+Metalopolis.jpg)
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Haha, that's an awesome poster
But yeah, I can't believe it's taking this long for custom maps to be played more often.
Also, what do you think of Blue Storm? Despite it being played a TON I see very little reference to it now. I thought the tiny unit only choke coupled with the zig-zag cross-center design was really awesome, and there were tons of cool games on that map.
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On November 29 2011 09:18 Bobbias wrote:Haha, that's an awesome poster But yeah, I can't believe it's taking this long for custom maps to be played more often. Also, what do you think of Blue Storm? Despite it being played a TON I see very little reference to it now. I thought the tiny unit only choke coupled with the zig-zag cross-center design was really awesome, and there were tons of cool games on that map.
Oh believe me, it's something the ESV map team has been trying to make work in SC2 since day one. I think our closest success at this point is Sungsu Crossing AE with Bardiche a close second. Blue Storm is godlike~
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Awesome interview! Real pleasure to read.
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I'm glad this interview happened and is on the front page. I am one of the 90% of the community who really doesn't know about the mapmaking community. SC2 is all I've known. I hear commentators and pros talk about the mapmakers here and there, but with no BW frame of reference, it's hard to get to know the issues at hand. This interview was really educational on the topic. Thanks for the post
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/ProdigInterview.jpg)
