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On July 19 2011 20:30 raDon wrote:
I just played this map on EU.
I must say: I really love it BUT it is almost impossible to hold a Protoss All-IN (me zerg) because you have two chokes and only 50/50 spines.
Can't the rocks just block the whole entree (really important in the early game)?
Could you tell me your skill level? And did you have FPS issues?^^
I really don't like the idea of blocking one side completely, that just prevents you from taking a quick third there and it makes the area very suitable for proxy stargates and the like (Socke did that when one side on Desert Oasis was blocked).
I think with 2 lings you can easily scout from which side Protoss attacks and adjust Spine Crawler placement accordingly. Protoss can't really run around and attack from the other side before you can see it and place your Spine Crawlers differently. And of course splitting forces isn't a good idea for Protoss in general and makes them more vulnerable to ling surrounds.
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Hey I am Diamond 3rd.
I think you are right with your arguments, when I think about it.
But i think most Protoss player will attack from the right (upper spawn) because you can get a nice curve with spines at the narrow entrence with the rocks.
FPS problems? No, I think i had as many as I always have, but I am a bad person to ask because I got a really nice computer some days ago 
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so, I have played the map now (3 times ZvT) and still like it. the air "distance" is very short, but since the tech to airunits is such an obvious choice on this map, you just HAVE to scout for it and defend accordingly. The Natural is secureable for Z and T and i like that it is open from both sides, since it allows more dynamic play. When you take the third or even forth it can get tricky, because helion harras is very strong, due to open expands. I feel that there is enough space for zerg to spread their units out and you have multiple paths to attack/flank/counter. I won 2 games with mass mutas/spined up expos and lost one game to a fast thor (later tanks) strategy, where the Terran took the left side of the map and droped the other side plus my main.
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How long til we see a NA release? I would really love to play on this map. ♥
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On July 19 2011 19:01 Ragoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2011 09:41 monitor wrote:
I'm liking the theme of this map a lot; its good to see people trying these layouts similar to Desert Oasis. It can be tough, but this came out really well!
To start off, I'd say that the natural's mineral formation is a little bit strange. When you put the gas in between the minerals, your workers are split up in a very strange fashion. As a patch becomes over-saturated, harvesters often move across the gas and to another patch; this creates excess mayhem in the mineral line. Additionally, the gas placement makes putting static defense in the middle of a mineral line a pain, because blocking the gas is really detrimental to the income. Instead, you have to put it to the side- but then it makes the workers move back to the other side, and the tower doesn't cover the whole mineral line.
--- I think you should put 1 gas on each side of the mineral line, like you have in the main and 3rd.
I like the location of the bottom right and top left thirds, because they offer a nice aggressive expansion, and don't require you to spread your army out too much. However, I think that small choke is a little bit too small, since you only have to defend it and the ramp into the natural to cover 3 bases. It'll make turtling a bit too easy, and harassing really difficult (especially run-bys).
--- I think you should make that choke wider slightly, and adjust the mineral line accordingly.
The bottom left and top right expansions seem to be very close together. This is typically not very good for gameplay for a few reasons:
-The expansions cannot be split between players (ie, one person always takes both)
-You do not have to move your army far to defend both expansions
-One is free if you take the other- you get two free expansions if you take the gold first
There can be some cool things about close expansions (like double expanding) but I don't think it works on this map, especially considering the close proximity to the gold. Twelve expansions is plenty, especially considering they are all 2 gas and 7/8minerals.
---I think you should rework the top right and bottom left corners to only have 1 expansion. Try to find an intermediate location, between the two current ones, to place the expansion.
[edit] Woah I didn't even see those small pathways. They help, but I think they're not going to be used for very much. I still suggest making the choke slightly wider. Wow thx alot, that's some really helpful stuff!!  I will adjust the mineral line on the nat, there isn't a good reason to have it like this anyway. About the close thirds, I was already worried that they were too turtlish and I will change those small pathways back so they can't be that easily blocked. I will also widen the choke as you said. About those close expansions on the lowground: I really want there to be two expansions, so you can get a quicker fourth that's not directly in the middle (the gold) if you take that route. As a trade-off your third is harder to defend and further away and the fourth is wide open+has a cliff behind it+highround ramp in front of it (and in ZvT/ZvP Zerg is probably expanding towards their enemy's third which also sucks for them). It's true that they are really close together and I can't really change that with this layout. And as you said it's a bit problematic when you took the other route, and then kinda get two expansions after the gold. So at this point I want to change the fourth on this side to 5 or 6 mineral patches+1 gas.
I suppose it will be okay to have two expansions there. If you are keeping them, I think you should move the third (the one in the corner) closer to the natural, so the side of the map is less linear.
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@zul Thanks for testing and feedback!
@Chargelot Well, you have to wait till I am top 5 MotM next month... ... nah just kidding , as soon as I think it's balanced enough. So I guess next release if there isn't an obvious flaw pointed out it could be released on NA. BUT someone will have to do that for me, I don't have an NA account. Please PM whoever is up for the task
@monitor Great minds think alike, I was planning to do that already. Thx again for your feedback, really, really valuable!
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Ok I changed it to v0.3
Changes:
- third pushed closer to the natural
- choke of the manmade third wider
- secret pathway not blockable by a single ebay again
- lowground fourth changed to 6 mineral+1gas
-changed mineral line of natural
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Just a note, I DO NOT like the Desert Oasis style even pathing. Spreads things out far too much and lends no actual cohesion to gameplay.
If you're going to do something like Desert Oasis, there needs to be something special that makes it viable. What exactly, I don't know, but trying to squeeze in a standard expansion layout into this, I dislike.
As for actual gameplay problems I can notice right off the bat, Protoss and Terran cannot move out at all against Zerg. Counterattacks (helped by the Desert Oasis style) are far too powerful since Zerg can just run to the other side and attack P/T's base. Also, rush distances are huge so even if Zerg doesn't counter, he can just mass up an army and beat the Terran/Toss straight up. Drops might be effective but if that's all Terran has, then it's not much to go on. And Protoss is straight up screwed.
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Thx for the feedback neobowman If it's true what you state I don't think there is much I can do about it, so I'll just wait and see.
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I fixed the light a bit, middle still has lower FPS than everything else but at least for me it's stable and playable with highest graphic settings, so I guess no real problem there.
It'll be uploaded on NA very soon now
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You should try to get this in GSL
This is just so awesome map
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On July 27 2011 05:05 Tonttu wrote:You should try to get this in GSL This is just so awesome map
lol thanks, but the GSL mapmakers are actually a lot more skilled than me
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Well, the name rocks--you got my attention.
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Sauerkraut Heights is now published on NA
Sauerkraut Heights uploaded by Brotoss.354
Very nice map Ragoo
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i dont like these styles of maps for competitive play, since sc2 is so fast paced and your army cant really traverse without going down these little pathways, and alot of times you just get basetrade scenaries since army position shifts so much. the visuals look good though.
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On July 27 2011 09:43 WniO wrote:
i dont like these styles of maps for competitive play, since sc2 is so fast paced and your army cant really traverse without going down these little pathways, and alot of times you just get basetrade scenaries since army position shifts so much. the visuals look good though.
I would think a Zerg player would like this map. So much potential for mass ling counter attacks.
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lol this map looks very similar to desert oasis
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On July 27 2011 13:28 stkblee wrote:
lol this map looks very similar to desert oasis
Beat me to it.
It looks like a slight improvement on the idea, but the natural is pretty vulnerable in spite of the long rush distances. Personally I don't like close air maps like this, it's just inviting goofy all ins to happen.
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On July 28 2011 13:06 Leargle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 13:28 stkblee wrote:
lol this map looks very similar to desert oasis Beat me to it.
What are you two even talking about? Did you two even bother to read the OP?
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EPT
