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Serashin, nothing personal, but I'm going to put in red all the reasons why you're wrong about most of what you said.
On July 17 2011 18:49 Serashin wrote:dont know his intention of them but i like to see them there to reduce the amount of easy takeable sneaky expansions , sure you can just scout all arround the map like on most maps but when it comes down to tense matches ur forced to use some time with ur forces to secure additional income . i know allot zvt where in the end just mule income with floating ccs won a very close game . Reverse order: First of all, you can't launch MULEs from floating CCs. Second of all, by the time you move out to take that base, you will (assuming a pro match) have enough of an army that the rocks will go down in seconds. Third, SC2 Pro Players have lazy scouting methods, but they have been getting better precisely because maps have places for stealth expansions. Maps should be helping the metagame move forward.
There is only one reason why you should ever block a base that isn't the third with rocks. If it is a gold that is close enough to the main that Terran can float there. That is literally the ONLY reason to block a base with rocks that isn't the third.Other then that you gotta make the area between gold and natural where there is this choke way more open . there where your rokish stuff is just cut of some from it and this map is playable without splash turtle deathball fear. In ZvP or ZvT (which I presume you're talking about), this map promotes a very counter-attack heavy style, which was shown to be VERY effective on The Crucible. There are ways to balance out a deathball push other than jsut making things wider.The high lowground revalence aswell as how the flow of expansions is promises awesome games. Dont know if this is a Xel Naga Caverns rivalist as top map as of yet just because i hate 300 apm spammed air battles where one click of a 0.1 sec time window can cost you the game. Uhhhh.... so you hate professional level of play?I love also 2 attack paths for the natural cause i hate extreme greedy FE combined with static defense wich is unpunishable . Yeah, this is an ok point. Though a roach allin beats a forge FE, and with close-by-air mains the Z ovie will scout it quickly ^^
@Ragoo and WniO, knock it off. Ragoo I'll have a private message for you coming.
@Ragoo's reply to me, can't zerg atm expo in the other direction to get fast 4 lol?
Thats just a really late base to rock-block.
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On July 17 2011 23:45 iGrok wrote:Serashin, nothing personal, but I'm going to put in red all the reasons why you're wrong about most of what you said. Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 18:49 Serashin wrote:On July 17 2011 17:10 iGrok wrote:
Why are there rocks at the far base? dont know his intention of them but i like to see them there to reduce the amount of easy takeable sneaky expansions , sure you can just scout all arround the map like on most maps but when it comes down to tense matches ur forced to use some time with ur forces to secure additional income . i know allot zvt where in the end just mule income with floating ccs won a very close game . Reverse order: First of all, you can't launch MULEs from floating CCs. Second of all, by the time you move out to take that base, you will (assuming a pro match) have enough of an army that the rocks will go down in seconds. Third, SC2 Pro Players have lazy scouting methods, but they have been getting better precisely because maps have places for stealth expansions. Maps should be helping the metagame move forward.
There is only one reason why you should ever block a base that isn't the third with rocks. If it is a gold that is close enough to the main that Terran can float there. That is literally the ONLY reason to block a base with rocks that isn't the third.Other then that you gotta make the area between gold and natural where there is this choke way more open . there where your rokish stuff is just cut of some from it and this map is playable without splash turtle deathball fear. In ZvP or ZvT (which I presume you're talking about), this map promotes a very counter-attack heavy style, which was shown to be VERY effective on The Crucible. There are ways to balance out a deathball push other than jsut making things wider.The high lowground revalence aswell as how the flow of expansions is promises awesome games. Dont know if this is a Xel Naga Caverns rivalist as top map as of yet just because i hate 300 apm spammed air battles where one click of a 0.1 sec time window can cost you the game. Uhhhh.... so you hate professional level of play?I love also 2 attack paths for the natural cause i hate extreme greedy FE combined with static defense wich is unpunishable . Yeah, this is an ok point. Though a roach allin beats a forge FE, and with close-by-air mains the Z ovie will scout it quickly ^^ @Ragoo and WniO, knock it off. Ragoo I'll have a private message for you coming. @Ragoo's reply to me, can't zerg atm expo in the other direction to get fast 4 lol? Thats just a really late base to rock-block.
Please delte ur post you make yourself look stupid iGrok :D.
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On July 17 2011 23:45 iGrok wrote:
@Ragoo and WniO, knock it off. Ragoo I'll have a private message for you coming.
@Ragoo's reply to me, can't zerg atm expo in the other direction to get fast 4 lol?
Thats just a really late base to rock-block.
Yeah as I said that's something that I did early on but that is now totally useless and I just failed to remove them despite their uselessness. So I will definitely change that asap.
I have nothing personal against WniO, that was just a joke cause I spammed so many trees
Btw thank you very much that you confirmed what were my intentions about balancing openness of the map and ability to counter attack with this
In ZvP or ZvT (which I presume you're talking about), this map promotes a very counter-attack heavy style, which was shown to be VERY effective on The Crucible. There are ways to balance out a deathball push other than jsut making things wider.
This is really helpful 
I would love to hear further opinions on how defensible the nat is, what you think about the openness of the map and what you think about the highground hiding air units all around the map. That are my biggest concerns
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I think I'd like this map better if the main was above/below the natural (on the outside of the map) with the natural towards the center. Than have the mains replaced by caverns and/or more open space in the center. I just don't like the closeness of the mains and the possible ari/siege abuse but that might not actually be a valid concern. Also a little more open ground in the center wouldn't do harm I think (I know you can counter but I can see Terrans really blocking all the narrow paths with buildings and tanks rather easily against zerg which will force the zerg into attacking the army.
It would probably work like this tho, just some things I would personally change. Good map and really good job on the aesthetics!
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On July 18 2011 00:04 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +In ZvP or ZvT (which I presume you're talking about), this map promotes a very counter-attack heavy style, which was shown to be VERY effective on The Crucible. There are ways to balance out a deathball push other than jsut making things wider. This is really helpful I would love to hear further opinions on how defensible the nat is, what you think about the openness of the map and what you think about the highground hiding air units all around the map. That are my biggest concerns
With proper scouting it should be fine for non-static defenses. And as I said before, counterattacking is a viable option, particularly baneling or Muta raids main-to-main - forcing either a lot of static or a healthy amount of units held back from any attack.
Which brings up my main concern, which is that there just isn't enough room behind the mineral lines for the amount of static AA you're going to NEED.
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United States10017 Posts
On July 17 2011 22:49 WniO wrote:
fuck off
err... at least a warning moderators?
back to the OP: looks like a zerg hell. too many chokes, but it seems like zerg has so many ways to backstab, so it kinda evens it out...
User was warned for this post
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On July 18 2011 06:49 FlaShFTW wrote:err... at least a warning moderators? back to the OP: looks like a zerg hell. too many chokes, but it seems like zerg has so many ways to backstab, so it kinda evens it out...
Yeah in this regard I want it to be similar to Crossfire where counterattacking is very viable. Except that on Crossfire T/P has pretty horrible thirds in my opinion, making it a bit too Zerg favored.
Chokes here are not (supposed to be) as tight as Crossfire tho 
On July 18 2011 06:41 iGrok wrote:
Which brings up my main concern, which is that there just isn't enough room behind the mineral lines for the amount of static AA you're going to NEED.
Do you mean only in the main? And is it okay just to push the minerals one/two more to the middle then or is the main too small for that (it's 31,1 CCs big)... hmm I will definitely look into that tomorrow!
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Reminds me a lot of Desert Oasis which was one of my favorite maps! (:D)
This looks so beutiful!
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I really love this map, however I think the natural is too wide open. My suggestion is quite simple: put some destructible rocks in the smaller gap, and let the natural have a main entry way via the ramp. This would make fast expanding viable while creating an interesting mid and end game, since those rocks could be taken down easily when lots of units are on the field. This would also increase the rush distance.
That would really make this map perfect in my opinion.
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Guys, can we, just for a moment, pretend like maps aren't made to please Zerg players?
In every map (but XNC, that map is amazing, gg Blizzard) each race will have a strength and a weakness in any match-up except a mirror. Even in a mirror match-up, an optimal strategy will still exist on any given map.
A choke point is dangerous because:
- It can be blocked, thereby creating a "fortress" for the blocking player.
- Units must funnel through it, creating a situation in which splash damage is technically optimized.
There is one obvious flaw with each of these things:
- This map has too many choke points, most of which are very large. Blocking them all would be absurd.
- Unless you plan on separating all of your zerglings/roaches/hydras/everything else on the ground and then magic-boxing them, they're going to clump, and one shot from a siege tank will do massive damage, with or without a choke point.
edit: I suppose FF could be seen as an issue, but after enough sentries have been made, they can just circle or semi-circle you in FFs with or without a choke. /edit
This map has very unique architecture, it is stunningly well designed, and it looks beautiful.
10/10.
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Version 0.2 of the map is up and the pictures are updated!
Changes:
- updated natural, made choke on the side with the ramp smaller and added rocks to partially block the other side, Protoss now needs 3 gateways and 3 pylons to block everything (before it was 2 more gateways which was a bit excessive imo) I guess that's still much + you have to build cannons for two sides, but the rush distance is quite big; I'd love to have further opinions on that one
+ Show Spoiler [Picture of new natural] +
(btw at first I thought bunkers would be a problem with the rocks but obviously the bunker is right next to the main highground so I'm just stupid)
- I changed most of the mineral lines, making them less spread out and making sure there is enough space behind each one of them for static defense cause there's highground behind most of the bases for easy air harrass + the main is so easy to air harrass/drop in this layout
an example picture of what a very safe lategame terran main looks like and proof that there is enough space now
+ Show Spoiler [terran main] +
- you can now block the secret waterpathes with one ebay (or whatever) like you can on Xel'Naga Caverns + Show Spoiler +
- made the chokes around the lowground bases a bit wider as well as the one leading from the manmade third to the gold
-improved aesthetics, especially the middle
Opinions?
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This map looks amazing but reminds me of a forest version of desert oasis lol, which people generally disliked. But I wont diss it until I try it good work.
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So, I just reduced the amount of doodads from 4700 to 2700... f-ing trees still make fps problems tho. On Xel'Naga I have 100+ FPS (ultra settings), on this map I have 36 in the middle and up to 50-60 when going more to the outside. I wonder if that's okay, I don't think it's laggy but I'm not really sensitive when it comes to FPS I guess...
edit: And I didn't test yet how much this will affect 200/200 fights.
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Its probably more the waterfalls than the trees. What other doodads are in the middle?
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hm, sunrays, 10 lights or so, waterfalls, rocks.
as I said with everything it's 36 FPS, when I delete all of it it's 44 FPS, when I delete the lights and sunrays in the middle only I get 43... so it's definitely the lights then. But they look so cool  Do I really have to delete them or does it still seem okay?^^
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Its the Sunrays and Lights. Multiple light sources are really difficult to layer properly - I'd be happy to take a look at it in-editor if you'd like
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I'm liking the theme of this map a lot; its good to see people trying these layouts similar to Desert Oasis. It can be tough, but this came out really well!
To start off, I'd say that the natural's mineral formation is a little bit strange. When you put the gas in between the minerals, your workers are split up in a very strange fashion. As a patch becomes over-saturated, harvesters often move across the gas and to another patch; this creates excess mayhem in the mineral line. Additionally, the gas placement makes putting static defense in the middle of a mineral line a pain, because blocking the gas is really detrimental to the income. Instead, you have to put it to the side- but then it makes the workers move back to the other side, and the tower doesn't cover the whole mineral line.
--- I think you should put 1 gas on each side of the mineral line, like you have in the main and 3rd.
I like the location of the bottom right and top left thirds, because they offer a nice aggressive expansion, and don't require you to spread your army out too much. However, I think that small choke is a little bit too small, since you only have to defend it and the ramp into the natural to cover 3 bases. It'll make turtling a bit too easy, and harassing really difficult (especially run-bys).
--- I think you should make that choke wider slightly, and adjust the mineral line accordingly.
The bottom left and top right expansions seem to be very close together. This is typically not very good for gameplay for a few reasons:
-The expansions cannot be split between players (ie, one person always takes both)
-You do not have to move your army far to defend both expansions
-One is free if you take the other- you get two free expansions if you take the gold first
There can be some cool things about close expansions (like double expanding) but I don't think it works on this map, especially considering the close proximity to the gold. Twelve expansions is plenty, especially considering they are all 2 gas and 7/8minerals.
---I think you should rework the top right and bottom left corners to only have 1 expansion. Try to find an intermediate location, between the two current ones, to place the expansion.
[edit] Woah I didn't even see those small pathways. They help, but I think they're not going to be used for very much. I still suggest making the choke slightly wider.
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the map is very nice tbh, the wide rush distance and walk around the base allows for time to setup defenses, so zerg players can re-adjust spines to defend. map of the month condender tbh.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2011 09:41 monitor wrote:
I'm liking the theme of this map a lot; its good to see people trying these layouts similar to Desert Oasis. It can be tough, but this came out really well!
To start off, I'd say that the natural's mineral formation is a little bit strange. When you put the gas in between the minerals, your workers are split up in a very strange fashion. As a patch becomes over-saturated, harvesters often move across the gas and to another patch; this creates excess mayhem in the mineral line. Additionally, the gas placement makes putting static defense in the middle of a mineral line a pain, because blocking the gas is really detrimental to the income. Instead, you have to put it to the side- but then it makes the workers move back to the other side, and the tower doesn't cover the whole mineral line.
--- I think you should put 1 gas on each side of the mineral line, like you have in the main and 3rd.
I like the location of the bottom right and top left thirds, because they offer a nice aggressive expansion, and don't require you to spread your army out too much. However, I think that small choke is a little bit too small, since you only have to defend it and the ramp into the natural to cover 3 bases. It'll make turtling a bit too easy, and harassing really difficult (especially run-bys).
--- I think you should make that choke wider slightly, and adjust the mineral line accordingly.
The bottom left and top right expansions seem to be very close together. This is typically not very good for gameplay for a few reasons:
-The expansions cannot be split between players (ie, one person always takes both)
-You do not have to move your army far to defend both expansions
-One is free if you take the other- you get two free expansions if you take the gold first
There can be some cool things about close expansions (like double expanding) but I don't think it works on this map, especially considering the close proximity to the gold. Twelve expansions is plenty, especially considering they are all 2 gas and 7/8minerals.
---I think you should rework the top right and bottom left corners to only have 1 expansion. Try to find an intermediate location, between the two current ones, to place the expansion.
[edit] Woah I didn't even see those small pathways. They help, but I think they're not going to be used for very much. I still suggest making the choke slightly wider.
Wow thx alot, that's some really helpful stuff!!
I will adjust the mineral line on the nat, there isn't a good reason to have it like this anyway.
About the close thirds, I was already worried that they were too turtlish and I will change those small pathways back so they can't be that easily blocked. I will also widen the choke as you said.
About those close expansions on the lowground: I really want there to be two expansions, so you can get a quicker fourth that's not directly in the middle (the gold) if you take that route. As a trade-off your third is harder to defend and further away and the fourth is wide open+has a cliff behind it+highround ramp in front of it (and in ZvT/ZvP Zerg is probably expanding towards their enemy's third which also sucks for them).
It's true that they are really close together and I can't really change that with this layout. And as you said it's a bit problematic when you took the other route, and then kinda get two expansions after the gold.
So at this point I want to change the fourth on this side to 5 or 6 mineral patches+1 gas.
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I just played this map on EU.
I must say: I really love it BUT it is almost impossible to hold a Protoss All-IN (me zerg) because you have two chokes and only 50/50 spines.
Can't the rocks just block the whole entree (really important in the early game)?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VtvZI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5CE83.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S5sG7.jpg)
