Thanks everyone for submitting and keeping this project alive!
Are you ready for more Map of the Month? Does the thought of pros typing "this map is CRAZY!" instead of "glhf" tickle you all over? Do you wish someone would invent a natural hamburger with a side of in-base fries combo meal?
Well we're back! MotM Season 1 was a huge success (Please sign our petition if you haven't already), and we're looking to make things even better now! So, to start things off, I'd like to welcome our new judge, LSPrime! Surely he needs no introduction, but you can see many of his amazing maps in the GSL. As always, the previous month's (May's) winner will be joining us, so congratulate Antares777 when you see him! These two mappers will be joining FlopTurnReaver, monitor, and myself to round out the crew. + Show Spoiler +
You may be wondering - what happened to dimfish? Well, the answer is that he is too busy fighting the zombie hordes! Really!
This month is anything goes month 1v1 - submit any map that you feel would be good for a 1v1 fight! Any number of spawns, bases, etc. Looking forward to your creativity!
As before, we'll be screening the maps, and grading the maps that make the cut. Then, they'll be scored 10/10/10 (Balance, Aesthetics, Intangibles). "Intangibles" is a category for all the little things that go into map design that aren't balance or art. Finally, we'll have a big discussion to determine our top 5 maps!
For the Players I'll make a player thread once we get closer to the date. Keeping things organized.
For the Mappers Submit your best melee map Top 5 maps are used in MotM tournament Best map decided by judges after tournament, with input from the community. Winning map is added to the MotM map pool. Winner is guest judge the next month Every 6 months, we will have a month for the previous 5 winners. The winner every 6 months will receive $25. + Show Spoiler [Submission Format] +
Your post should include the map name, an overview picture, a brief description, and a link to your map thread if you have one. You also must submit your map file to submit.motm@gmail.com. For a good example, see Mereel's submission.
When? Map submission closes 24:00 EST July 4th (6:00 CET July 5th). Finalists will be chosen by July 8th.
MotM Staff July Judges Panel: iGrok, FlopTurnReaver, monitor, LSPrime, Antares777 Graphic Artist: NullCurrent Wiki Expert: pyrestrike If you would like to help out, e-mail igrok.motm@gmail.com
Sponsorship MotM’s main prizes are sponsored by myself and dimfish. We have no corporate sponsors, but we have big plans for the future. Anyone who wishes to donate to or sponsor MotM will only help us to grow. In the future we plan bigger prizes, more side awards, and more. For information, contact iGrok.motm@gmail.com.
Sponsors: iGrok dimfish pyrestrike bkrow
Contact Info With any questions, send me a pm or email iGrok.motm@gmail.com
Takaoni and Kageoni is a 2 player map with the rush distance of Taldarim altar while having a relative open but still good defendable natural . The map is covered by 3 Watchtowers wich reveal 19 % of the total map by controling all of them.
The paths are made to allow with watchtowers some control over the early game.
The more you want to expand you can chose as third one where higher tech units prevail or when you decide to take the expos farer away are more open and lower tier units prevail there.
The map also contains way complexer terrain then the usual maps.
(I found the image error was doing this map on low resultion so i just changed that , decals look like that if you make a screen from that distance just going a bit more near fixes it but ingame should show that it doesnt look that weird )
Sweet!!! I can't wait until this returns for another great month! So excited with LSPrime, and wanna see what the great mapmakers come up with this month. Thanks Jack for putting on such a great show
ok i decided there is not enough time to finish lost city so i will submit TPW Judicator Caste: Texture: Aiur Playable: 160x155 Expands: 10 Xel'Naga: 2 Main/Main: 174 Nat/Nat: 128 Mapthread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=229202
On July 02 2011 07:13 Mereel wrote: ok i decided there is not enough time to finish lost city so i will submit Judicator Caste: Texture: Aiur Playable: 160x155 Expands: 10 Xel'Naga: 2 Main/Main: 174 Nat/Nat: 128 Mapthread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=229202
Just curious, but I see a lot of similarities to the brood war map : Destination
Did you get a lot of inspiration/design features from that map?
I´m in the middle of a 2 week vacation away from my computer, so I was shocked to see the deadline 3 days away! Now I have asked WniO to finalize the map and submit it on my behalf. Hope you make it WniO!
I'm going to release a smaller an more condensed version of cold snap with huge aesthetic changes... Hope I can get it done in time as I'll be out of town til te 3rd... Gonna be a late night!
On July 02 2011 12:01 TheAwesomeTemplar wrote: Someone please tell me how to post decent sized pictures on here please?? I have a few maps that I'm thinking of and I might want to publish one.
If you use imgeshack to upload you can select a image size to automaticley convert it to. I use the 600X500 Size, comes out very nice.
On July 02 2011 12:01 TheAwesomeTemplar wrote: Someone please tell me how to post decent sized pictures on here please?? I have a few maps that I'm thinking of and I might want to publish one.
Hit the "Upload Image" button at the top of where you post ^^
Resurrection Theme & Overview: The map should display a formerly infested world. Abandoned from the Zerg the Protoss have started to restore the nature of the planet. However, the upper half of the map has neither been been cleaned nor been explored yet, and so the map is cut into a Paradise (bottom) half and an Infested (upper) half. Map size is 160*104.
On July 03 2011 05:24 ihasaKAROT wrote: Sick map icetoad, i expect top5 for sure.
looks very much like pawn imo, very nice doodadding
yeah, I guess the winner will either be Novaria or Scars of Aiur. but it will be interesting who gets the other 3 tournament spots, I really hope Resurrection can make it But there are a lot of other strong maps around, which might be less experimental...
Would be sick if LSPrime could pull some strings and the winning map goes to the GSL!
Several years ago, during an encounter with the swarm, the Omega-12 supply station has taken critical damage. The crew has been able to repair most of the damage, but the communication and navigation systems were lost. Since then the station has been floating around in space without orientation.
On July 03 2011 05:24 ihasaKAROT wrote: Sick map icetoad, i expect top5 for sure.
looks very much like pawn imo, very nice doodadding
yeah, I guess the winner will either be Novaria or Scars of Aiur. but it will be interesting who gets the other 3 tournament spots, I really hope Resurrection can make it But there are a lot of other strong maps around, which might be less experimental...
Would be sick if LSPrime could pull some strings and the winning map goes to the GSL!
Odyssey is the best map I've seen in this thread so far.
On July 03 2011 05:24 ihasaKAROT wrote: Sick map icetoad, i expect top5 for sure.
looks very much like pawn imo, very nice doodadding
yeah, I guess the winner will either be Novaria or Scars of Aiur. but it will be interesting who gets the other 3 tournament spots, I really hope Resurrection can make it But there are a lot of other strong maps around, which might be less experimental...
Would be sick if LSPrime could pull some strings and the winning map goes to the GSL!
Odyssey is the best map I've seen in this thread so far.
That:
On July 04 2011 09:50 Mereel wrote: well this post was before lefix postet odyssey^^
and I still like those two more Maybe because the odyssey design gives me DeltaQuadrant flashbacks (zerg player talking...) also Broceliande looks great... so many good maps!
apperantly i sumited e-mail 2 days ago but it came a message that it was declined dont know about that issue maybe it is stacked with my internet problems dont know.
But for that matter i uploaded the map data @ megaupload.com link is here: + Show Spoiler +
On July 05 2011 00:48 Serashin wrote: apperantly i sumited e-mail 2 days ago but it came a message that it was declined dont know about that issue maybe it is stacked with my internet problems dont know.
But for that matter i uploaded the map data @ megaupload.com link is here: + Show Spoiler +
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2ILFIBJ9
I hope it gets accepted like that aswell.
You should try to send it again, if you have maybe with an alternative e-mail provider.
Even if the athestics on this map are not as polished to match other maps the strategic possibilitys of this map are realy good and dont give a squeezed feeling where siege abuses might be your nightmare , the lack of xel naga towers just makes the early midgame weird the tower is a ressource of current sc2 dont remove it for w/e causes you can do plan so much arround them
•Spawns are located at 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock. •There are LoS curtains inside of each main, providing opportunities for players to be sneaky with Nydus Worms or proxy structures. •Regardless of where players start, the option of expanding away from or towards your enemy is available. •The natural can be walled off with a Pylon, Forge, and Gateway or 4 Spine Crawlers. •Space is available to harrass the main mineral lines with air units. •Cliff-walking units can access the main via the associated 3rd expansion.
Mine didn't turn out the way I wanted, so you're all off the hook, for now. Plus I had to celebrate and this texturing and doodading thing takes time, I hear.
But anyway, there is no way I could possibly be disappointed with the 5 maps that get chosen as finalists, these are all good enough to eat twice.
On July 05 2011 03:32 WniO wrote: nice batch of maps this month. motm is getting better every day! intrigued by the tpw deal. obviously not as good of a name as LoS
Yeah but you gotta get a European so you can host maps for each other, that's the biscuit.
Saveon Castle by TheAwesomeTemplar (No E-Mail submission)
Takaoni and Kageoni by Serashin (No E-Mail submission)
Submissions will still be accepted until Tuesday, Jul 05 3:59am GMT (GMT+00:00)
tryed it with my other e-mail provider seems to be problem of my internet , i posted that link for the data already in this thread. So basicly u got all what u need even if the data is not directly in the e-mail box <.<.
Haha, my secret is out. I used those floating trees to make leafy shadows cover the map in order to create contrast and give it a forest vibe. On low graphic settings they don't do anything but on medium (with shader quality to high) or higher they create a canopy effect.
EDIT: For those who want to see what I mean there are examples in the map thread.
On July 06 2011 06:42 SmashHammer wrote: Haha, my secret is out. I used those floating trees to make leafy shadows cover the map in order to create contrast and give it a forest vibe. On low graphic settings they don't do anything but on medium (with shader quality to high) or higher they create a canopy effect.
EDIT: For those who want to see what I mean there are examples in the map thread.
On July 06 2011 06:42 SmashHammer wrote: Haha, my secret is out. I used those floating trees to make leafy shadows cover the map in order to create contrast and give it a forest vibe. On low graphic settings they don't do anything but on medium (with shader quality to high) or higher they create a canopy effect.
EDIT: For those who want to see what I mean there are examples in the map thread.
Wow that's ingenious :O
OMG thats brilliant......i will totally steal that!
Well I think we should(LoS) should start recruiting cause TPW is gonna take a lot of place considering the fact that 2/3 of the mappers on TL are in TPW :/ .
@Flop While fiddling with the lighting I found that you can pretty much turn down/off (not sure of right word) the shadows from the trees. I turned them down to what I thought wasn't distracting but they can be almost totally removed while keeping the trees in place.
On July 06 2011 09:35 Icetoad wrote: The thing that would be fun is having cloud effect, so the shadows move this would certainly add a flavor to a some map.
I bet you could approximate this by using a similar floating giant doodad technique, then using triggers to make them slowly rotate/translate. Plus you can use triggers to adjust the lighting parameters themselves, to mimic cloud darkness passing by. I'm so gonna play with this now.
No, not true, as has been discussed many times previously. Unlike in BW, you can add triggers and it doesn't take away melee functionality. You can also screw around with anything you want in the data editor and it retains melee, which is why you can play sc2bw as melee.
On July 06 2011 15:25 ihasaKAROT wrote: I like how first everyone is WTF-ing at the floating trees, then its explained and its the best idea in the MotM this month tbh :D
I think most of the maps have some weirdness in them if you put a magnifying glass on em. Thats life
Lower settings with high effects make (made?) it easier to spot cloaked units. Pro's don't like to be distracted by anything graphical anyways, even in FPS games you see many pro-players turn everything to low. Who needs dustclouds in the streets covering your opponent?
The reason for that decision was that we call ourself 'Map of the Month' and not 'Map of the Year' and this particular map has already been published in november 2010. If we allowed old maps we'd also have to allow people like iCCup mapmakers to submit some of their old successful maps, as example prodiGs 'Neo Enigma' which wouldn't really be fun, since we encourage mappers to work on new things, not grab something old from their folder.
However if we see that the map clearly has been overworked since the old release, we will still allow it in the competition. In other words: we don't support lazyness
I'd like to apologize at this point since it is for a big part our fault for not displaying explicid rules for the submissions in the OP.We will definitly be doing that from next month on to clear any misunderstandings that might occur otherwise.
Apologies again to the aggrieved parties and thank you for your understanding.
On July 07 2011 04:36 FlopTurnReaver wrote: The reason for that decision was that we call ourself 'Map of the Month' and not 'Map of the Year' and this particular map has already been published in november 2010. If we allowed old maps we'd also have to allow people like iCCup mapmakers to submit some of their old successful maps, as example prodiGs 'Neo Enigma' which wouldn't really be fun, since we encourage mappers to work on new things, not grab something old from their folder.
However if we see that the map clearly has been overworked since the old release, we will still allow it in the competition. In other words: we don't support lazyness
I'd like to apologize at this point since it is for a big part our fault for not displaying explicid rules for the submissions in the OP.We will definitly be doing that from next month on to clear any misunderstandings that might occur otherwise.
Apologies again to the aggrieved parties and thank you for your understanding.
omg i tried to submit my age of empires map and now u r telling me this???? i worked for days trying 2 make the best map to take 1st place!!!
Seriously though, new maps > pulling old maps out of your ass and rolling the dice.
Is dodad count included in the judgeing ? or used as revalence id kinda love to know how much dodads are spread on everyones map , sadly i dont know a way to find it out with excluding all pathing / sight blockers with them i got a count of :
Well u replied with kinda ovious stuff , what is interesting me with that is not how much dodads should be used etc . Id just love to see numbers that created some awesome looking maps it is problably surprising how much some have where u dont see it instantly or or how low count some have where u think this map is full of good visual effects .
Basicly a ratio of how much awesomeness per dodad created in visuals . In wich case my map would already in that ratio fail since its used to much to have an overview.
Don't blame me, you asked for it! My dear Fallen Haven has 1635 with some of them just outside the map bounds. (Becouse you can see a little past those and it would look awkward if the forest just ended at the edge of the map, right?)
Whenever I see TPW, I read it as "Team Periwinkle," so someone better announce what it really stands for soon before it gets permanently ingrained in my mind.
On July 09 2011 10:24 Qegixar wrote: Whenever I see TPW, I read it as "Team Periwinkle," so someone better announce what it really stands for soon before it gets permanently ingrained in my mind.
I think it is officially team periwinkle now, unless someone objects.
edit: Serious, though, all motm maps use to be published on EU as well, just not right away. On US it happens faster, since players want to test those maps before the tournament, and MoTM is currently on US only. Both are reliable for someone to 'host' all those maps for a month or so.
When I look at the final 5 I really get depressed cos of the amount of excellent maps with really cool and unique gameplay and stunning aesthetics that won't be played in tournaments (other than MotM) ever
I really hope TPW can organize some kind of EU tournament, that would make me soo happy
anyway, let's keep clam. no map bashing, please i'm also interested in what other peoples picks were. there wasn't much speculation about the top5 this month.
I personally think 4 maps were uncontested the 4 best maps: Green Harvest, Antiga Prime,Core Delta and Odyssey.
To me the 5th spot were between LoS_Novaria, Ignition Point, Monsoon Valley and Razed, I wasnt sure which one I would choose but I think either of those could have made it and I really really doubt it have been due to any kind of bias that it was Monsoon Valley that was chosen.
On July 10 2011 23:18 Archvil3 wrote: I personally think 4 maps were uncontested the 4 best maps: Green Harvest, Antiga Prime,Core Delta and Odyssey.
To me the 5th spot were between LoS_Novaria, Ignition Point, Monsoon Valley and Razed, I wasnt sure which one I would choose but I think either of those could have made it and I really really doubt it have been due to any kind of bias that it was Monsoon Valley that was chosen.
lol, wow. I just looked at the maps and thought hm I would have picked the same final 5... maybe not Monsoon Valley and instead Razed, Ignotion Point or LoS_Novaria but I think Monsoon Valley was the most interesting... Very cool to see how much we all agree about maps now
7.4 LoS_Novaria 7.3 7.8 7.2 6.3 LoS Desolation 5.9 6.5 6.7 I got a better average than Antiga prime for Novaria and Antiga was chosen for finalist. Could I know why?
On July 11 2011 00:09 Icetoad wrote: 7.4 LoS_Novaria 7.3 7.8 7.2 6.3 LoS Desolation 5.9 6.5 6.7 I got a better average than Antiga prime for Novaria and Antiga was chosen for finalist. Could I know why?
Yes kinda , also i dont think that you should take the ratings seriusly. Antiga Prime and Odyssey are just TPW promoting bs while clearing being far from finals material. I also wont give my top 5 but clearly those 2 dont belong in top 5 about Green Harvest im not to sure maybe close for 5th but also not sure if in . Weird orginisation to good that im no professional mapmaker woulda have thought now that this contest is full of persons that dont know what realy mattters for a map. I also think no one realy understands How the gameplay could be on some of the maps. They are just not experienced players and thus create without wrong basics not okish stuff , that is ment to this TPW thingy same for Sc2 ICCUP both have just 1-2 strong points in some catergories but the overall is missing.
Even if BW map making is simpler it clearly overpowered atleast laddder maps. looking in this thread and top 5 wont contest even ladder maps except for 2.
Also this is no directly hate / frustration response i am kinda viewing this whole thing rational as a proffessional player.
I realy like that how IGrok supports this whole project but what is missing is people with understanding.
So far.. take this as criticism and try to overcome your overall heavily missing ingame knowledge in highlevel . Otherwhise this whole project will be just a funny little contest every month without any affect on the ladder.
Thanks for bringing this opertunity up to allow my wall o text flatter behind ur little sting.
*Weird orginisation to good that im no professional mapmaker woulda have thought now that this contest is full of persons that dont know what realy mattters for a map.*
What the hell dude....i wont argue here because ur are clearly wrong. gonna end in a flamewars if i would
Points don't say anything. Points just help the jury to get a pool of ~15 maps and out of those they pick the 5 maps which most likely will lead to cool games in the tourney. And you know that f.e. LSPrime is within the jury.
I agree that you shouldnt take the ratings too seriously - there is obviously more thought and discussion among the judges that desices the top 5 other than score.
So far.. take this as criticism and try to overcome your overall heavily missing ingame knowledge in highlevel . Otherwhise this whole project will be just a funny little contest every month without any affect on the ladder.
First of all, if you think MotM wants to promote TPW then you are full of shit imo. I guess they don't really want to pick 5 TPW maps, those maps just so happened to be the best...
I think it's really a shame that no high level player is involved in judging, I don't know how much effort goes into finding pros willing to share their opinion about maps but it would definitely be better if there were more pros doing that. Part of the problem imo is that the MotM tournament is only in NA, when NA clearly has the least amount of high level players. On EU or KR we would probably see a lot more high level players attending, making the quality of the tournament and the feedback better.
Btw did you ever try to contact TLO for judging maps? I mean he was random for quite some time and since he is full time pro but can't play cause of his carpal tunnel I bet he could be willing to do something for the map community?!
Anyway, this month motherfucking LSPrime was judging maps and you talk about lack of knowledge....
[edit] Ha, some vociferous defense above me. We should take the discussion seriously, even if it started in emotional reaction, if only to meditate on how to be as excellent as possible. [/edit]
The scores are just a quick rubric to sort out top contenders and maps that can be set aside from consideration--judge staff have explained this before. The average score is sort of a "first impression" score.
MotM definitely has a certain style that it promotes, but that is the synthesis of the inputs of everyone here in the map forums and the personal thoughts of 5 judges, a body of demonstrably strong mappers whose membership is always in flux. It's hard to say they have an agenda. TPW swept the finals because they all had aesthetically polished maps with superb proportions and a measure of originality.
That said, the judges tend to value certain aspects (and you can count on this if you are aiming to get your map picked). The TPW guys all gravitate toward a similar mapping paradigm to the MotM judging values, which is perfectly sensible since those two groups are constantly in conversation here.
In principle I completely agree that MotM will always be short of perfection because we don't have grandmaster players to test or share ideas. Isn't that true of any map making effort, though?? And in any case, while top players can give good feedback about the current game, I believe that the strong mapmakers exhibit a forward-thinking insight that outstrips the progress in play of the game. If you let tournament players make maps, you would stagnate very quickly. Mappers see beyond current trends into the world of possibility, and the fruit of the art is the result of complex judgements of which we cannot be fully conscious, and the final quality of which we cannot appreciate for years, maybe even ever.
In this way, mapping is a tragic art because the craft by its nature will never be fully experienced. This is acutely true for maps that never get picked for use in a community event and fall into the dust bin of history. Everyone who makes maps shares this pain. The beauty is that, with efforts like this event, there's always next month. =)
I hate to attack ones credibility as an argument and I really want to avoid that we flame each others maps here, but really Serashin, when I look at your contribution this month I really dont think you are in a position to judge anyones maps.
I don't think that MOTM would be biased towards certain map makers, but of course it could be possible that they prefer certain styles. Everyone has their own preferences and of course they judge based on what they feel is right. That is why it is so great that we have a team of judges and not just 1 person. Now that LS is a judge we see it from a whole new perspective as well. Brining in more judges would broaden the perspectives but I don't see how it could influence the results this month. The winners all deserved it and while maybe 2-3 maps that didnt make it could possibly have made it, it is really hard to choose just 5 when you have 7-8 maps that are of that quality.
I like the idea of bringing in a pro judge though. The first name that comes to mind is Morrow. He has made maps himself and been involved with map making community with interviews and opinions before so I am thinking he would be interested if it could fit in his schedule to be a guestjudge. Make it happen iGrok!
i agree that having an actual pro player in the jury would be great, not just for picking the best maps, but also for getting valuable feedback and some publicity of course
I personally like Antiga Prime the best out of all the maps submitted, but I'm a scrubby player so that doesn't mean much.
Having one or two high level players look over these maps could definitely be a boon to the selection process. I'm sure Pokebunny, MrBitter, maybe even Morrow would be willing to help.
OK, without any frustration (as it was pretty clear that my map would not be top5 ), here are my top5 (note that I clearly didn't spend as much time on thinking about those than the jury did...):
due to alphabetical order I'm starting with the last map I chose for my top 5 great aesthetics, and I like how the long rush distance and the far away 3rd base interact with the possibility to take the gold as your third, if you are playing as T/P vs Z. The goldbase might need some rocks and the natural should be a little bit narrowed to make it easier for Protoss in PvZ. Else: definatly better than half of the ladder maps.
said it on page2: this map was one of my biggest favorites; really nice looks and for me it looks like an improved Xel'Naga Caverns. Better third, better 4th, similar gold base
good looks if you like that kind of style (which I'm not extremly sure of). I really like the natural. Like shakuras plateau but with the rock backdoor, which makes PvZ forge expands a little harder, because you need an extra pylon and canon (as shakuras is a great map, but the PvZ statistical balance is a little bit off currently), could use a second XNW, but all in all, really nice
that's maybe because it is based around the same basic layout idea as my latest map (Siege Canyon) and I think it could result in a lot of great games with the big lowground path in the middle and the smaller highground pathes around. also the aesthetics are really good imo
all-in-all summary: great maps, hard to really choose 5! Only real critizism: I think the mapmakers should try more experimental stuff and less of "1-2-3 bases + a gold + a place to siege + a place to overrun + a rock": I know that lots of maps are/were imba because of new stuff, but some of the things they used were rebalanced and used in other great maps (backdoor expension in jungle basin --> Crevasse; "low ground mainbase" on Kulas Ravine --> Tel'darim Altar, Bel'shir Beach) and others that didn't lead to imbalance are still exclusive features of those maps (double wide ramp on Scrap Station, Mineral Rocks on Testbug, Watchtower Rocks on Testbug). So I really think that those great mapmakers (like from LoS and from TPW) should be able to figure out something new and exciting, that is balanced (on the map were they use it).
Wow, just woke up and things got heated i guess?. Congrats to the winners, I think you guys did deserve it. I knew my map had about zero chance this month with all of the great maps submitted. I feel like the only solution is for every mapper to delete the galaxy editor for next year and play until everyone is in grandmaster. On a serious note I think that, while probably unintended, the formation of more mapping teams is kinda fracturing the TL mapping forum a bit. Also instead of seeking pro players as judges it might be more reasonable to ask some non-pro but still really high level players to judge. Pro players would be sweet to have as judges but realistically I find it unlikely any would be willing to take 5-6 days off to judge an amateur mapping contest. I don't see why even players in masters league wouldn't be able to properly judge if a map is balanced or looks good. I have no problem with the current judging, they seemed pretty fair. Logically if all the best mappers on TL make a team then it follows that that team's maps would win. If you got 5 willing masters or higher players to judge I think it might be a bit more fair in other people's eyes. I mean it is guaranteed TPW judge next month, who will be judging TPW maps, which will probably win. Just to reiterate, I do think the winners this month deserved it. But unless something changes this will probably become the TPW in-house map competition in a few months.
On July 11 2011 02:22 WniO wrote: what a fucking joke if you arent going to use the scores than why even bother with that
So you never ever understood the system? Scores are just an indication. All judges discuss the top 15 (chosen b the score) to choose a top 5. Sometimes a judges just missed a small imbalance / design flaw / ... but a other judge caught this one and a map which was maybe at spot 4 in scores drops out.
Still it would be awesome that the winner of the last motm tourney (the player not the winning mapper) gets the judge spot.
smashhammer has a good point. with more and more mapmakers teaming up, it might be better to rethink the guestjudge position. a team member judging his own teams submissions sounds controversal :D
Congratulations on the winners. Couple things I'd like to note though about some of the maps.
Green Harvast seems like it'll be a crossfire 2.0 just because of how choked off all of the attack paths are. You are forced to expand toward the middle of the map which turns into the biggest choke point is a 3 wide ramp. If the enemy is pushing into your natural they'll be fighting at a 2 wide ramp, or a 9x3 long corridor. Doing almost any kind of counter attacks on this map are completely shut down by all the destructible gates though. The extra gasses seem really gimmicky as well if you spawn in horizontal or verticle positions what's stopping a push thru those tiny bridges while hugging the wall & elevator up into the main base. I think too many people just say "Oh, it's Prodig Jr. of texturing" and kind of overlook the balance aspect this map, which even Johannaz said himself, is very very gimmicky.
Is it just me or are Antiga Prime & Monsoon Valley the same map? First 3 bases are basically the same. Could even say the 4th and 5th are the same. Middle is open. Even textures are a little similar. I think if IronMan put water on his lowground middle I couldn't tell the difference. I know I know, they are different but the base layout is extremely similar, just kinda weird both maps would get a top 5 spot even though they are so similar. I thought we wanted variety here so we can see how different maps play out. No disrespect towards Nullcurrent or IronMan as both are top map makings, I just dislike how close these two maps and it takes a spot from some other unique map. Hell, I'm even hosting Monsoon Valley on US because I asked Nullcurrent if I could because I do like the map. It doesn't change the fact that 2 of the top 5 maps are identical.
Odyssey I still agree with what Monitor said. I think there needs a base right next to the main. Overall, easily top material.
Core Delta is also quite legit, I swear he's been tweaking that map for many months now. Overall, easily top material.
ps.
I'll post my scores when I get them. Damn you igrok, come back online!
On July 11 2011 03:50 SidianTheBard wrote: Is it just me or are Antiga Prime & Monsoon Valley the same map?
Well, I discussed the center of Antiga Prime with IronManSC and helped him with my opinion of various drastic changes, because the old middle didn't really work. I guess my earlier work on Monsoon Valley influenced me more than I thought in that discussion
About TPW:
The MotM judges did not know about TPW before the maps were submitted, nor did we relay any information related to TPW except for the name to a few select people who asked. So from my point of view the accusations of bias towards TPW is completely unfounded.
When you already, or so I thought, had a pretty nice community and then make a "select peoples" club it is bound to create hard feelings. I doubt you guys meant to do that but its human nature to feel excluded when stuff like this happens. I'll admit I felt excluded until I realized that mapping is just a fun hobby for myself and its not that big of deal. I didn't say there was bias just that there could potentially be bias if things don't change. Just my two cents.
On July 11 2011 04:43 WniO wrote: oh and apparently shitting all over the map with tree doodads is just as good as spending 25+ hours on one. ill make sure to do taht next time.
How about we quit the "I'm about to hit puberty and really hate my parents-attitude" and start acting with a bit of dignity? Not only do you cry about the MOTM judges you take a shit on the winning maps and map makers while you are at it. Does it really feel that bad to lose?
Y'know WniO, let me just say a couple things to you since I know you're referring to my map, antiga prime. Believe me, I was frustrated when I lost the other two times I submitted to the contest, especially after being told "you were so close to making it." But let's get some facts straight.
First off, I submitted it and looked at all the other maps and literally thought I didn't stand a chance. Even other TPW maps beat mine by far. I did not expect to make it.
Secondly, when I did make the top 5, I realized it took me 3 attempts at MOTM to actually barely win something. More so, I do NOT expect it to win out of the top finalists.
Don't think even for a second that we are some badass group who knew we were gonna win. Want to know the truth? We all talked and said "at least one of us will make us, we do know that" We were not expecting to see all of us in it because we felt it wouldn't be fair to the community. Now, iGrok and the pro mapmaker, LSPrime are great people with high amounts of respect. These guys know map-making, and they've run contests before. They know what they're doing, and what they've said about TPW is true and admirable.
On July 11 2011 04:43 WniO wrote: oh and apparently shitting all over the map with tree doodads is just as good as spending 25+ hours on one. ill make sure to do taht next time.
How about we quit the "I'm about to hit puberty and really hate my parents-attitude" and start acting with a bit of dignity? Not only do you cry about the MOTM judges you take a shit on the winning maps and map makers while you are at it. Does it really feel that bad to lose?
Honestly, if you genuinely think your map was better than one or more of the winners, it can feel pretty bad to lose. People spend lots of time on these submissions, and seeing your work dismissed in favour of something you think is inferior can be quite heartbreaking. I don't blame WniO for feeling the way that he does, though I agree it might benefit him to be a bit more tact.
On July 11 2011 04:43 WniO wrote: oh and apparently shitting all over the map with tree doodads is just as good as spending 25+ hours on one. ill make sure to do taht next time.
Grow the fuck up. I can understand being frustrated because you didn't get the results you wanted, but there's more to a map than trees. I've thrown 60+ hours into a map only to have it not work out at all and have it axed and discarded entirely. That's the way these things work.
On July 11 2011 02:36 lefix wrote: smashhammer has a good point. with more and more mapmakers teaming up, it might be better to rethink the guestjudge position. a team member judging his own teams submissions sounds controversal :D
I judged MotM for awhile across many submissions from the iCCup Mapmaking Team that did not make the top 5. I won't deny that my opinions may have been biased, but having four or five other mapmakers and judges on the team can serve to negate that pretty quickly. I don't think it's a problem at all.
Congrats to the winners~ (time to go back in the thread and find out who they were!)
TPW swept the finals because they all had aesthetically polished maps with superb proportions and a measure of originality.
This couldn't be more true. Instead of screaming bias and unfairness, try stepping your game up a little.
On July 11 2011 02:22 WniO wrote: what a fucking joke if you arent going to use the scores than why even bother with that
I explain this in almost every MotM thread, even though I'm not a judge anymore... The scores serve as a filter to divide the good from the bad; and to force the judges to examine crucial aspects of each map under the microscope to facilitate the judging process and help to form their opinion. When meeting time comes around, the judges can look at the highest scoring maps and work their way down from there to easily determine which maps belong in the top 5 and which ones simply don't deserve to make the cut.
On July 11 2011 04:43 WniO wrote: oh and apparently shitting all over the map with tree doodads is just as good as spending 25+ hours on one. ill make sure to do taht next time.
Grow the fuck up. I can understand being frustrated because you didn't get the results you wanted, but there's more to a map than trees. I've thrown 60+ hours into a map only to have it not work out at all and have it axed and discarded entirely. That's the way these things work.
On July 11 2011 02:36 lefix wrote: smashhammer has a good point. with more and more mapmakers teaming up, it might be better to rethink the guestjudge position. a team member judging his own teams submissions sounds controversal :D
I judged MotM for awhile across many submissions from the iCCup Mapmaking Team that did not make the top 5. I won't deny that my opinions may have been biased, but having four or five other mapmakers and judges on the team can serve to negate that pretty quickly. I don't think it's a problem at all.
Congrats to the winners~ (time to go back in the thread and find out who they were!)
On July 11 2011 02:22 WniO wrote: what a fucking joke if you arent going to use the scores than why even bother with that
I explain this in almost every MotM thread, even though I'm not a judge anymore... The scores serve as a filter to divide the good from the bad; and to force the judges to examine crucial aspects of each map under the microscope to facilitate the judging process and help to form their opinion. When meeting time comes around, the judges can look at the highest scoring maps and work their way down from there to easily determine which maps belong in the top 5 and which ones simply don't deserve to make the cut.
Oh thanks for taking your time out to brag a little bud. The scoring system makes a little more sense now, but its still a lame excuse to bring in the subjective bullshit and especially since there is the intangible section. hence the tpw > others.
On July 11 2011 04:43 WniO wrote: oh and apparently shitting all over the map with tree doodads is just as good as spending 25+ hours on one. ill make sure to do taht next time.
How about we quit the "I'm about to hit puberty and really hate my parents-attitude" and start acting with a bit of dignity? Not only do you cry about the MOTM judges you take a shit on the winning maps and map makers while you are at it. Does it really feel that bad to lose?
way to disregard my fair complaint, you really showed me!
how is adding up number to a "score x/10" less subjective than stating that 5 maps are better than 10 other maps, really?
what is a map with a score of 7 in balance for example?
when you submit something to a contect it is up to the judges and their understanding of the game and the map- it is all about subjectivity and the judges pespectives on what one has produced...
Okay my 2-cent: All TPW are good map and such as the other that were almost chosen. But lets talk about the final result, the result went to a 5 map from TPW. This result makes it look like a friend map making tourny, also this create a feeling of no diversity for the choosing, I'm sure if there had been just 3 maps of TPW, than this wouldn't have flame as must right now.
I think right now it's the final result that makes us irritated. I have also the same feeling as the other people and I feel that our map LoS_Novaria (me and wnio) should have been chosen, we had work a lot on it, I'm pretty sure it's the same as many other map maker.
For me it's the final result that makes me unhappy.
On July 11 2011 09:04 Icetoad wrote: Okay my 2-cent: All TPW are good map and such as the other that were almost chosen. But lets talk about the final result, the result went to a 5 map from TPW. This result makes it look like a friend map making tourny, also this create a feeling of no diversity for the choosing, I'm sure if there had been just 3 maps of TPW, than this wouldn't have flame as must right now.
I think right now it's the final result that makes us irritated. I have also the same feeling as the other people and I feel that our map LoS_Novaria (me and wnio) should have been chosen, we had work a lot on it, I'm pretty sure it's the same as many other map maker.
For me it's the final result that makes me unhappy.
I get that you're unhappy, but as I replied in PM to you, frankly I don't give a fuck where the maps came from. Once people realize that, they'll get that we aren't biased. Throughout all the judging conversations, we cut TPW and LOS and oZz or whatever the third one was from the names when we were talking about them. TPW was inevitably going to get a bunch of top spots because they are a majority of TL's good mappers. You and WniO are top as well, its just that this time the guys in TPW took the spots.
sry Barrin but: I just think you overestimate yourself and underestimate other players (especially progamer's) abilities to think ahead in the metagame. another thing I want to add: the game is balanced around a very very small variety of mapspecific things (main bases that look the same, naturals that are easy to take etc,etc...), so saying that mapmakers contribute a lot to the metagame is like... "you need water to swim!" + Show Spoiler +
and once again I want to add for all the mapmakers (might not be true for every map this month, as you need to see a lot of Code S games on the maps to really figure this out): Most submitted maps are beautiful and well balanced, yet I think any great map has to have some innovations in it, else no tournament is going to take a map, that "plays basically like Crevasse/Crossifre/XNC/Metalopolis... but it has the *map Y*like feature too".
Hysteria definatly has this; any of the GSL maps and even a lot of blizzard's ladder maps too.
I'm not complaining about the judging or anything, it's just about the result, and I think it's a good thing that you don't look at the tag. For me it's the result that makes the other unhappy.
Barrin, if I don't say it then you say it, it's a good team.
Big J, you're just as right. The thing is that 99% of pros don't do anything with that "applied intuition" because they have no way to implement it. They have to play at the present cusp, and devote all their energy to that, so only those with the most effortless execution and free-flowing genius can show us leaps ahead. Everyone else is just population*, and regardless it takes time. Making a great map, though, is like asking a deep question. Even a simple answer might have layers of meaning. And it may be that nothing ever comes of it. But the success is still there, waiting like a seed in the shade. In a way we have a luxuriant burden. We don't have to beat MC, we just have to make a playground for him.
*Incidentally, everyone everyone else besides that is just chaff. What's cool though is that a middling player and fan can appreciate the beautiful things that happen in a well-played pro match. That vicarious comprehension is worth something.
While my personal taste prefers more radical selections, I have to say MotM has always been just about optimal for choosing the very best maps that won't be over the head of the current metagame while providing some forward momentum, and always being bulls-eye on damn playable. When there are more than 5 such maps in a given month, binary comparisons aren't really applicable. How many amazing sunrises have you seen? How many have you missed? There will be more.
Scored well, I'm happy. Any of the judges care to let me know if there was any major reason why Aesthetics scored so low? Too plain in the middle I assume? + Show Spoiler +
I just didn't want to clutter up the playing field!!! haha
On July 11 2011 10:06 SidianTheBard wrote: Ignition Point
Balance: 7.6 Aesthetics: 6.6 Intangibles: 7.7
Average: 7.3
Scored well, I'm happy. Any of the judges care to let me know if there was any major reason why Aesthetics scored so low? Too plain in the middle I assume? + Show Spoiler +
I just didn't want to clutter up the playing field!!! haha
Thanks for the kind words in the PM, iGrok. <3
You're going to have to ask the other judges - I love them lol!
In my humble opinion, these are the maps that had a shot at taking a top 5 spot: - Broceliande - Forgotten Sanctuary - Ignition Point - LoS Desolation - TPW Green Harvest - TPW Antiga Prime - TPW Core Delta - TPW Juno by funcmode - TPW Monsoon Valley - TPW Odyssey 60% of them are from TPW, so i am not suprised at all that they managed to take all five top spots. Sure, it looks biased at first, but when you check these maps out, it's easy to see that the judges got a point in picking those. I can understand that some are pissed off right now, since their map didn't make the cut. One puts a lot of effort into creating them, but please take some time to cool off. Accusing a biased decision doesn't help at all, and i'm afraid in most cases it's yourself that's biased in that regard.
I am so happy that the Balance Points Points are the Most I Ever reached - subjective or not
And aesthetics: well tastes are different. Some people liked them much better for the extra contrast between levels. But some also choose a really strange looking map to be best of all in the last motm(no offense - just saying tastes and results differ)
7.3 Broceliande 6.2 7.8 7.8 Good map, you were in the top 10 for sure.
Damn balance killed me again, maybe I should let someone else take care of that part and only do the aesthetics :/
Definitely keep making maps. Your concepts are really neat and the aesthetics are great. The balance is better than most maps too- just needs some refining. I think you should make more map threads for that purpose.
7.3 Broceliande 6.2 7.8 7.8 Good map, you were in the top 10 for sure.
Damn balance killed me again, maybe I should let someone else take care of that part and only do the aesthetics :/
fenX your aesthetics are amazing. I assume you must build them into your map nearly from the start because you have such evocative and complete environments. It might throw a wrench into your process, but I recommend that if you have a map you think will turn out well, post it early to let people give you feedback on the layout! I think in general your maps are a little too open and the proportions are just slightly oversized, both easy things to fix. If you work with the forums you will get finalist ez. Broceliande easily the prettiest map I've seen. Of course I am partial to that sort of countryside.
The World Tree Balance: 7.2 Aesthetics: 6.5 Intangibles: 8.0
avg 7.2
any judge wanna be kind and PM me some extra details on the scores, like usual Tnx alot
For everyone: Theres a top15 of maps that get in. The ToiletPaper maps are pretty polished and balanced, you gotta give em that. Im happy with my first 8, I'd love to see one of my maps make top5 for a change but I guess im not good enough yet.
Just accept your scores and let that be a drive to do better next month! Take it like a maaaan
For the admins: Maybe increase the maps from 5 to 8-ish ? Theres alot more maps and theres alot better maps, its not as big a gaps between the maps as it was in Motm #1 and #2. Top 8 would also give you guys some more breathingroom judging them. Just an idea, you can also expand the attached tournament this way, with a bigger mappoule, but not too big that you wouldnt play all the maps.
On July 11 2011 15:23 ihasaKAROT wrote: The World Tree For the admins: Maybe increase the maps from 5 to 8-ish ? Theres alot more maps and theres alot better maps, its not as big a gaps between the maps as it was in Motm #1 and #2. Top 8 would also give you guys some more breathingroom judging them. Just an idea, you can also expand the attached tournament this way, with a bigger mappoule, but not too big that you wouldnt play all the maps.
problem is that each map then gets even less games. i would even rather suggest to go from five down to three. my point is that there are many equally polished maps. in the beginning of motm many maps had bad scaling or actually were imba. now the overall quality is quite good.
why not only pick really few based on originaly in the sense of new aspects for the game or something new for the visuals. Is there one that really stands out?
When I look at the top five - and i am fine with the selection, although it seems like i am not in because of aesthetic reasons(...) - i always find something that bothers me. Look at the maybe best map of this motm: Odyssesy: no choice on expansion direction. While I got that covered for TPW with my difficult forward expansion in Razed, I think more maps should focus on giving options in the way they are played (besides the last expansion in lefix map is also qite difficult in my opinion). On the hand hand i think there is quite something to do (as i pointed out oddysey is not perfect), but still i want to emphasize the possibility to be more experimantal at the same time (razed still got an 8.0 in balance
harder selection > less maps > more games to be spectated > better analysis and promotion for the lucky few
Yeah there are talks about only letting 1 map per country in to make it some kind of world map championship and the country who wins will get to host next months tournament and judge the new maps.
Will also be subdivided by continent later to make a european map championship etc.
I do not know if such a change really makes sense. there are lots of mapper in the US and Germany for example. When there is only one from Canada, US, Germany, GB, etc. the overall quality will decrease. Noting against South Africa or Italy, but there is not such a broad support with maps coming from there.
Rather make teams according to timezones! this allows teamwork and reflects the global village this community and starcraft resembles.
Even though I represent roughly 50% of the MOTM map makers from Denmark I think my chances of getting into the top5 would vastly decrease with those rules
On July 12 2011 00:21 ihasaKAROT wrote: I love the idea, secures my mapspot
lol, me too!!! (cwutididthere)
Also, Germans do the best because they are drunk 24/7 and that's how the best ideas come out. Damn you! Guess I need to start drinking more often. Then again, I suppose some bad ideas come out as well, I mean, Toilet Paper Warriors...Really?
Rather make teams according to timezones! this allows teamwork and reflects the global village this community and starcraft resembles.
This would be a hilarious (and awesome?) restriction for one month's contest. Although I have no idea how that could be enforced. Do any of the important people know if there will be more restrictions in upcoming months?
I had a bunch of stuff written about the drama that came out of the finalist announcement, but I scrapped it because it started to not make sense. If you want more information about what I think needs to happen for MotM, then go to my link above. Otherwise, you'll just have to deal with the fact that subjectivity is the name of the game, undeniable and indisputable, and with that, you have to live with the fact that outside of this organization, you've got nothing else.
If we look at this months submissions we can clearly see that the teachings of one of our spiritual leaders – which is Dustin Browder – are disappearing slowly. No blocking of every expansion except for the natural. No denying of half the chokes. Nothing to complicate expanding to an island. What happened to island expansions anyway?
As you see it wasn't that easy to determine a winner for this months Dustin Browder Award. However there actually was a map that sticked out because of its unique usage of Destructible Rocks. The World Tree by ihasaKAROT. It's also the first time this award complies to it's title because it actually changes the balance quite a bit:
Have rocks: Balanced Rocks gone: ZERGS WREAK HAVOC!!
This is one map where you want to send your first 4 Zerglings to your opponents side to start destroying the rocks, ignoring scouting SCV's and early Marine pressure, just to get that advantage in the late game.
I salut to you sir for remembering our mighty lord of mapbalance, Dustin Browder.
Do you know Brood War? Have you played it? Didn't you love those cool maps that got created for each season of SPL and sometimes for the individual leages? I sure did and still I wonder why so few mapmakers of today are taking a bit out of those fantastic examples. Well actually sometimes you do see a map that reminds you of the good old days. That's what this award is about.
This month there was one map in particular that reminded me about Brood War maps. The map is calld Judicator Castle and was created by Mereel. Doesn't it make you think about Destination? Or even.. ok mostly Destination. It owns its resemblance amongst others to the 2 bridges outside the natural but also.. ok mostly to those bridges I guess.
It's not only a very Brood Warliesque but also a very good, balanced and fun map. If you're ever bored by the ladder and MotM winner maps you should definitly give it a try. I say thank you for this bit of nostalgia in our almost too innovative world of mapmaking.
Ok to be totally clear, this is not about the map looking like the result of a drunk cocaine orgy or anything like that. This is simply a statistical determined award. The map Odyssey by lefix has not only gotten the highest average score but also the highscore in every single category. This makes it bi- highscoring.
Yes I know, score doesn't mean as much as you may think in our decicion about the top 5. Yet this map has convinced everyone of the judges. I mean seriously, have you looked at this map? It's not only beautiful and shiny but also looks like it's incredibly fun to play. Even though it was incredibly hard this month to limit ourselfs to only 5 maps, this map was determined to be top 5 rather quickly.
So all that's left is to wait for witnessing some games on it to see if the map's really as good as we think. Also I'd like to stress that highscore doesn't mean at all that the map's definitly gonna win the competition end of the month. Certainly it has a good chance to though. Keep your eyes open for this treat in the upcoming tournament. I can guarantee you that you'll see some awesome games on this map.
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers. But when I get home, the only thing I have power over, is the garbage.
Who has never enjoyed watching Bob Ross paint something amazing with very simple techniques? Who has never though 'Wow this looks so easy, I should try it myself sometimes' but never pulled through with it? I'm sure most of you out there have at one point. When I think about mapmaking I feel like there are many similarities with painting. Yes it is about constructing terrain on which people can play a game, but what is a construction without good looks?
The difference between a map with some textures on it and a map with actually well planned and executed textures is just huge. It's not as hard as you may imagine but in the end it comes to patience and determination. You can just mix some different grass and dirt textures and spread it over the whole map. Or you think of a concept and really make it look gorgeous. There are no happy trees on ugly textured maps, I can tell you that much.
So this award is not only about nice texturing. There were a lot of stellar looking maps this month. The reason this map – Broceliande by fenX – catched my eye is that the creator chose the ugliest and most limited tileset possible, which is Agria. Don't believe me? I challenge you to find me 3 other maps using this tileset that don't look totally repulsive. I'm not saying it's the best looking map I've ever seen, but he certainly got the best out of the selected textures.
Agria will thank you for displaying that not everything using its textures necessarily must be hidious. You definitly deserve some appreciation for this and I'm sure we'll be seeing your submissions up top in the future, at least when it comes to the aesthetics. But that's our little secret.
Congratulations to all the winners. Keep up the great work!
interesting to see how sc:bw isometric perspective looks so much more interesting in the overview compared to a sc2 flat overview or gameplay-angle overview. though I realize it is an aspect of real 3d, I think it would be great to have a rendering setup for overviews that correct aka warp the space to make an angled overview fit into a rectangle.
On July 18 2011 22:44 Samro225am wrote: interesting to see how sc:bw isometric perspective looks so much more interesting in the overview compared to a sc2 flat overview or gameplay-angle overview. though I realize it is an aspect of real 3d, I think it would be great to have a rendering setup for overviews that correct aka warp the space to make an angled overview fit into a rectangle.
On July 19 2011 10:45 Barrin wrote: Reminds me of how they try to stretch a global map onto a flat surface.
Also sorta reminds me of WoW, back when you couldn't fly in the vanilla areas (they didn't want to re-render everything); apparently they eventually did re-render everything though (for cataclysm?).
o.O
Yep! You can fly in azeroth for like 1000 gold... I got to 84 and quit, got so bored running around doing nothing ^^
On July 18 2011 13:58 FlopTurnReaver wrote: So this award is not only about nice texturing. There were a lot of stellar looking maps this month. The reason this map – Broceliande by fenX – catched my eye is that the creator chose the ugliest and most limited tileset possible, which is Agria. Don't believe me? I challenge you to find me 3 other maps using this tileset that don't look totally repulsive. I'm not saying it's the best looking map I've ever seen, but he certainly got the best out of the selected textures.
Agria will thank you for displaying that not everything using its textures necessarily must be hidious. You definitly deserve some appreciation for this and I'm sure we'll be seeing your submissions up top in the future, at least when it comes to the aesthetics. But that's our little secret.
Thanks for the award, I'm really happy that spending 157318 hours painting textures on that map wasn't for nothing I'll tell you the secret to make Agria textures look good : + Show Spoiler +
Use only one from Agria, pick 7 other textures that look good from other tilesets. My map uses 1 from Agria, 5 from Haven and 2 from Bel'shir. That being said I also have a map that uses only Agria and looks quite good (check "Montagnes jumelles" on EU).
On July 21 2011 23:46 Doz wrote: I'm curious as to when the #8 competition will be open for submissions. I'm working really hard on a project for the last week and a half
Then Why not get it displayed in a map thread and receive some feedback, so you can really polish it?
On July 21 2011 23:46 Doz wrote: I'm curious as to when the #8 competition will be open for submissions. I'm working really hard on a project for the last week and a half
Me too. I can't start a thread yet, but want some way to show what I've been working on. Seems like it'll be fun too.
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