|
Takaoni and Kageoni
Introduction:
Takaoni and Kageoni is a 2 player map basicly in scrap station style without island expansion.
I had no plans for this map i i am just not able to play due my awful internet connection wich saddens me... but as it progressed i thought why not aiming with this map to it getting accepted for Ladder , Cups , Tournaments ?
The map has 6 expansions for each side 2 bases are located in the middle of the map wich allows ressource adventage for one side depending on how offensive one player is.The map has 3 gold expansions in total.
3 Xel Naga watchtowers are placed on the map aswell as possibilitys to reduce rush distance,open areas and increase attack paths wideness by destroying destructible rocks.
This map also contains 3 very easy defendable exapnsions where higher tech units will prevail.
They were made in mind to equal island expansions.
However since i wanted not to give Terran the adventage to expand there without any extrea investment i made it small paths wich will reduce in the later game due easier to defend expansions the Blop vs Blop factor and the one who comes out ahead wins.
Overview:
+ Show Spoiler +
Overview angled:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oHPfY.jpg) [
Analyzer:
+ Show Spoiler +
If the size is not supported for you click right click on the not full sized image and open the link.
Mapsize: 160 x 175
Version: 2.1
Published on : EU
Id like the communities opinion if this map should be added to the mappool wich is why i create a poll regarding this matter in the OP.
Poll:
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Should this map be added to Ladder , Cups , Tournaments ?No , i dont want to play this map aswell as it not getting added in the areas i play. (Comment why) (18) 86% Yes, i would like to see this map replace one of the current maps. (3) 14% 21 total votes Your vote: Should this map be added to Ladder , Cups , Tournaments ? (Vote): Yes, i would like to see this map replace one of the current maps.
(Vote): No , i dont want to play this map aswell as it not getting added in the areas i play. (Comment why)
Thanks for reading , and have fun !
|
create a thread when ur not tired is my suggestion
|
the doodad is an animated one.. go check it out, it is impressive
glhf
|
Looks like a fun map although I can see air rushes being very strong.
|
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal.
|
On June 17 2011 15:58 IronManSC wrote:
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal.
I disagree. I think they have their place, although less standard.
|
On June 18 2011 00:22 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:58 IronManSC wrote:
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal. I disagree. I think they have their place, although less standard.
The main bases need to be fixed though.
|
On June 18 2011 00:43 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:22 Gfire wrote:On June 17 2011 15:58 IronManSC wrote:
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal. I disagree. I think they have their place, although less standard. The main bases need to be fixed though.
Maybe. Not necessarily. There are plenty of successful maps with nonstandard main chokes. TDA, BS Beach, Scrap Station, etc. No one has proven that you have to use a standard single diagonal ramp for the main, although it is the most common. Single-width horizontal ramps are very easy to wall in though, and that might be an issue. A double horizontal ramp would be a little bigger than the standard signle diagonal, but smaller than on Scrap station. Which would be more balanced would depend on rush distance and other factors.
|
On June 18 2011 00:52 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:43 IronManSC wrote:On June 18 2011 00:22 Gfire wrote:On June 17 2011 15:58 IronManSC wrote:
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal. I disagree. I think they have their place, although less standard. The main bases need to be fixed though. Maybe. Not necessarily. There are plenty of successful maps with nonstandard main chokes. TDA, BS Beach, Scrap Station, etc. No one has proven that you have to use a standard single diagonal ramp for the main, although it is the most common. Single-width horizontal ramps are very easy to wall in though, and that might be an issue. A double horizontal ramp would be a little bigger than the standard signle diagonal, but smaller than on Scrap station. Which would be more balanced would depend on rush distance and other factors.
u dont understand what your talking about
|
On June 18 2011 04:00 Mereel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:52 Gfire wrote:On June 18 2011 00:43 IronManSC wrote:On June 18 2011 00:22 Gfire wrote:On June 17 2011 15:58 IronManSC wrote:
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal. I disagree. I think they have their place, although less standard. The main bases need to be fixed though. Maybe. Not necessarily. There are plenty of successful maps with nonstandard main chokes. TDA, BS Beach, Scrap Station, etc. No one has proven that you have to use a standard single diagonal ramp for the main, although it is the most common. Single-width horizontal ramps are very easy to wall in though, and that might be an issue. A double horizontal ramp would be a little bigger than the standard signle diagonal, but smaller than on Scrap station. Which would be more balanced would depend on rush distance and other factors. u dont understand what your talking about
well, then enlighten us with your wisdom and clarify where he is wrong then ? because I can´t really see a problem with that right now. One might have to look at how you are able to wall there, and if there are problems with early pressure, but I don´t think that "non-standard" ramps are per definition bad, and he had quite some arguments...
|
ty for making some images and giving tips i realy appreciate it !
however i will add on tommorow evening or maybe monday morning - middle of day because i changed allot regarding 3rd, 4th and middle area aswell adding 1-2 more expansions cause some high level players i asked thought like this its to easy to keep zerg on 4 bases wich eventualy will with 100 % of a turtle style will heavely favor the other races
i changed the natural a little bit to make it less vulerable to helions in zvt however its still arround xel naga ish open area.
the ramp behind served just a timed purpose because of me having no idea what to add there where now some asthetics matching to the one down the ramp has its place now :>
i also will have in the 2.0 version wich will be added as said some interesting destructible rock position wich might be worth to check out for some Map Makers ( note no rocks blocking a expansion. )
my goal with my version 2.0 version will be to have used the time in wich i couldnt practise ( however my internet isnt fixed at that date will take way longer TT ) have another accepted map for tournaments cups with a live span of atleast 6 months before getting trashed for more awesomeness .
i see myself out of player perspective that the current version doesnt add to much strategic options regarding 3rd and 4th wich will be changed so please ... give feedback on the current mostly okish areas to point out fatal errors wich i fail to detect. ( even main will have a slight change but dont hestitate to comment )
ps : my ramp problem is fixed
|
1. Im sorry for double post i didnt expect not a single reply.
2. Sorry again  , im behind my announced shedule but my slow internet doesnt allow me to do anything.
3. The OP is now updated and the 2.0 version uploaded. I hope this map is now worth some replys.
|
I voted no currently but I really like the look/layout. It is too big for my tastes though. I think that it is too "wide" (in pic the y axis is too tall). If you compress it that way, moving player 1 and player2 sides of map closer together then it would be better I think. Not like a lot but a significant amount.
It will probably require more texturing work.
Wing thing in middle is tacky.
I like it and think you should keep working on it.
|
I'm not crazy about a lot of the added land, but I think it has some potential. It's just a little bit too much. If some of it is removed (mainly things on the right, whatever's mid right, whatever's behind the rocks and some space in and above/below the mains), I'd like to play on it.
|
Fix all your ramps. Horizontal/vertical ramps are baaaaad. They need to be diagonal.
Fundamental terrain structure fail.
|
The map feels kind of... messy.
I see expansions that take up the entirety of a path, meaning units will have to pass through resource lines to take said path. It doesn't interfere with play as much as it is kind of unappealing aesthetically.
Most of the expansions have me wondering about building placement. Are the geysers optimally placed? Is there a single optimal spot to place a Nexus, or is there "Wiggle-Room?" (Wiggle-Room is bad) Is there space to move/place structures behind each mineral line?
The blue decals seem to be going every which way and overlapping each other without any clear organization, and there are a lot of high ground spots that seem unnecessary. Keep decorations simple. They way the doodads and unused terrain are now, they just seem distracting rather than contributing to an overall aesthetic feel.
Also, don't use uneven terrain. A lot of map makers use it, even pro-level map makers and Blizzard, but it adds nothing to the visuals and just makes weird bulges when buildings get placed on it. Sometimes, you will even get buildings tilted at odd angles because they try to match the hills of the terrain.
I can't say how the map itself will play (it looks freaking enormous), but it does look like a lot of fun. I would suggest using sc2 map analyzer to run some statistics on them. Also, give some info on map bounds, so we can have a measuring point.
One last thing, about vertical/horizontal ramps: they are fine to use except in a place where players will be walling off (like the entrance to a base), because the way pathing and building placement works around them is baffling. They are also a bit harder to see than diagonal ramps, but that doesn't mean you can't use them.
|
|
|
ty for the detailed feedback explanation whise,
to keep overall balance it might be more whise to choose one ramp layout or depending on how you want the area players are able to adjust their calculations based on the faster moving over different ramps ... but since i dont want to bother players yet with that i have anyway for my 2.1 version already the ramps a bit changed allot will be changed. please look forward to it and once its released let the feedback-rain come !
E: i wont problably be able to have texturing being as awesome as from professional mapmakers if anyone has swift hands for that id love if you lend me a hand once you see 2.1 released and texturing whise you just wanna look away, also light effects are a bit to complex for my knowledge of the editor
|
Version 2.1 now uploaded !
Changes :
- changed main and natural a bit to allow creep being connected now with 2 tumors
- changed 4 th expansion ( moved it closer and changed positioning etc because of defending issues
- added rocks to 2 gold expansions
- removed the path between middle gold and 4th expansions of each side to allow early game mapcontrol
- changed some ramps
- changed how 2 watchtowers were covered with terrain and sightblockers
- some other little changes
ps : updated OP it has now analyzer statics included
|
I think there are several big issues which make this map - sorry for being brutally honest - a pretty bad one:
- it's way too big for a 2-player map. Rush distance should be 120-160 for main to main. It'll be really hard to have a track on your opponents expo count, simply because there are 14 bases. For a 2-player map, that's just too much. Usually you should aim for 10 expansions, with your 4th and 5th expo being harder to take since they are placed towards your opponent. On this map it's rather easy to take about 5 expansions without even coming near my opponent's territory. Its size makes it also rather hard to get units into a good position. Controlling space on it is really hard to do, which makes it impossible to beat a good zerg with ling/muta on this map. This makes it very hard to go into detail about it's layout, since this huge flaw renders it rather useless.
- texturing. It looks pretty random and doesn't support gameplay. Usually textures are used to give each cliff level a unique look. That also makes it easy for players to recognize what part of the map they are currently looking at since every area gets a unique feel. Using different cliff types also help a lot. You pretty much used temple stones into temple masonry into even more temple walls. That makes it hard to differentiate locations of the map from each other.
- This map doesn't have a overall theme that it sticks to. It mostly features a conglomerate of doodads into a aiur temple setting, with the doodads not fitting in. Sure, there's a lot of impressive stuff in the editor one can put on a map, but most of it shouldn't be used. For example the huge arc that spans the map. Impressive in single player, but nothing one should ever use on a multiplayer map. You used doodads of a lot of different tilesets on this map. But those crystals from char, pipes from space platforms and metal homes from agria just don't fit into an aiur setting with ancient temple walls. Same applies to those protoss power lines. They look awesome. But be stingy with them. Use them only to set small, subtle highlights to your map. Use shrubs, Trees and temple debris instead. Sure, those aren't that impressive. They even look rather boring. But your final result will more pleasing to the eye. After all, a map should usually keep a rather low profile and cater to playability. A clean and unifying look helps a ton in this regard.
A good way to achieve this is to pick a set of maybe 8-12 doodads, and 3 "main textures" you want to use on the map, and stick to them. Try to make exceptions only for very good reasons like "i want to make the middle stand out a bit more". But also then, don't overdo it.
- minerals aren't placed the way blizzard does (chunks of 2-3 patches with 1-tile gaps in between). Just something that players are used to, and one should stick closely to it.
Sorry for my harsh words, i don't intend to be mean. I think you just have a lot of stuff to learn yet, and telling straight away what you need to do to improve is the best way i guess. Try to make a new, smaller one. Maybe 144x144 in size, 2 players with 4-5 expos per player, do all cliffs first, then pick a style to aim for, create a palette of doodads and texutres you want to use and go into further detail.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Itj0G.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o6PJ1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CsTdw.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/j6HCK.png)
