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Hotfix applied:
I recently noticed there was a problem with mining units. Since their size increased, as more and more of them piled up on a mineral line their mining capability significantly increased as well. I will be looking at a reasonable way to fix this issue but in the meantime miners have had their unit sizes reduced back to retail. All other units will remain unchanged.
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****Important:
I am looking to feature some nice clips in a youtube reel for the mod. Everyone please send me your replays. This will help me find some balance issues as well as make a nice reel for other people to get a feel for the gameplay.
Official channels to find other players playing this mod:
"No Deathballs"
and
"SC Pro"
There might not always be people in them, but stick around while you are on and someone might wander in. If im in there give me a shout out and ill gladly due some games(i have been really busy lately so you might not see me on much).
Thanks for all your feedback and support everyone. I am glad that so many people feel the same way as i do about Starcraft 2.
For everyone that is feeling uneasy, please rest assured i want whats best for the game and gameplay. This is not a rub in blizzards face or any of that. I grew up playing video games and I just want to do everything possible to make the game feel the way i would like it to. All i can say is give the mod a shot and post your feedback, good and bad is all appreciated.
UPDATE********:
Version .2 out now! Please check it out.
Changes:
- Roaches, Zealots and Sentries are now adjusted in size.
- Hellions, Marauders, Stalkers, Immortals and Hydras have had their sizes adjusted.
- New Map Available: "No Deathballs - Steppes of War"
Steppes of War has a wider open field and should allow for more open engagements.
I am looking for a bigger map that has even larger open spaces. If anyone has any suggestions please PM me or post them in this thread. It does not have to be a blizzard map.
No Deathballs(NOW AVAILABLE ON EU!!! Thank you woozie):
No deathballs is basically a mod where i tweaked radius settings down to the thousands place(X.XXX). The goal was to create a game that felt more like Starcraft 1. One of my biggest complaints about Starcraft 2 was the annoying "A-click your Deathball into my Deathball and then press a few buttons". The culprit behind this was how units tended to clump up together into giant balls of death. Although this is a simple change, this radius increase on every unit has so far worked out really well.
The irony: I was expecting the game to feel really unbalanced, due to the fact that it was balanced around this "deathball" fiasco. However, quite the opposite seems to have happened. With this increased radius, the game almost seemed to have balanced itself out:
- Melee units are doing great because the ranged units where not ALL shooting at once(deathball clusterfuck).
- some aoe's needed tweaking, but many felt even more balanced. The colossus still feels powerful, but it doesn't fry everything in sight in half a second(like retail).
- Psy Storm needed a slight radius buff, but it feels very balanced and similar to SC1.
- Engagements overall felt more persistent and continuous rather than rare and quick. Since it takes longer for units to create an arc, micro is important in making sure all your units are attacking. The A-click syndrome is severely diminished.
This is my first mini-mod. My ultimate goal is to create something i like to call, "SC Pro mod". For now this radius fix will hopefully make for some fun and memorable games, but in the future i plan to do even more to make SC 2 feel more competitive than it already is. Feel free to make suggestions.
Screenshots(sorry for the graphics. I had to take them on my laptop).
Please note: Screenshots really do not do this mod justice. You really just have to
play it to understand what really happens.
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/enslaver_2006/Screenshot2011-03-0801_31_45.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/enslaver_2006/Screenshot2011-03-0800_50_22.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/enslaver_2006/Screenshot2011-03-0800_34_57.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/enslaver_2006/Screenshot2011-03-0800_34_42.jpg)
*These screenshots where not manipulated. The units where not manually separated or put through weird circumstances. All units where either a-clicked or right clicked into those positions in one form or another.
Since i only did in-house testing i am certain that i looked over a few things, so this is the beta version. Please feel free to report any bugs, balance issue's or weird unit sizes that don't make sense.
Some things i am watching closely:
Ultralisk + Archon splas
Tank damage vs light(again, this unit size seems to have balanced tanks out quite a bit. I feel as if the nerve to light damage could be reverted. Please test things out to see how it feels).
Zerg in general feel a lot more powerful, but i wouldn't say unbalanced. Please test this out.
Hydra's might be a bit too small.
Stalkers feel a bit large. At first i wanted to reduce their size, but i thought they walked in a very cool formation so i kept it that way. It might be a bit hard to kite stalkers one by one, but overall they still function well.
Units that are not changed:
Zealot
Roach
The roach might prove to be problematic, but the zealots size does not seem to affect the game to any degree. Roach hydra feels pretty potent but it wont be stomping over every unit mix. But i am not a pro gamer so well see.
If you have any balance suggestions, a replay is worth a thousand words(or more!) Please include replays with any balance problems you may find.
Thanks for reading this far. Enjoy the mod!
Unfortunately i do not have a website, so please just browse through the list.
The map is called:
"No Deathballs - Xel Naga"
To play:
Click create custom game, and in the search bar type in: "No Deathballs". It should be the first one to come up.
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Please upload it to EU. I would like to play, but doesn't seem to be there.
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On March 06 2011 21:05 Rawr wrote:
Please upload it to EU. I would like to play, but doesn't seem to be there.
Do i need a EU account?
I would love to but i dont have access to an EU account.
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I love this idea! Something definitely to keep in mind though is that Helions seem utterly useless for anything but worker harass now.
btw, your name is ALongSchlong, really? 
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On March 06 2011 21:24 GP wrote:I love this idea! Something definitely to keep in mind though is that Helions seem utterly useless for anything but worker harass now. btw, your name is ALongSchlong, really?
Yes, what i found from hellions is that they are completely useless without blue-flame but still have a great role with the upgrade. You do actually need to kite to make them effective now!
Hydras, Lings Marines and Zealots still take a beating.
And ya, im probably gonna change my name back but its gotten me some good laughs so who knows
=D
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Chat channel for the mod(or future mods) will be "SC Pro" if you want to find other players to play with.
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Looks cool, has anybody found it fun?
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Pretty clever idea man. I'll check it out.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Really want to test this Mod, could really improve the game and stop those balls - maybe some splash units need a look afterwards - but i hate those 200 supply fights that look like early engagements.
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thanks 4 the replies. The mod is no where close to the top of the popularity list(lol!) so i recommend playing it with a friend and/or practice partner.
The current channel is "SC Pro" if you want to find other players.
@dezi: AOE spells where taken into consideration and their radius' have been adjusted. With more feedback i might fine tune it. I have done a lot of testing with common aoe units(colossus/storm/tanks etc.) in common scenarios, and they felt balanced. This is beta though so more testing shouldnt hurt.
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Could you upload this to somekind of SC2 map site? I'm on EU and I can't find it.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
can you please include screenshots or youtube vids? you could generate a lot of discussion i bet! i'm very interested in seeing what this looks like but i don't have to time to play!
On March 06 2011 20:28 Cryosin wrote:
reserved
please do not do this on these forums =P
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I like this idea. Compared to Brood War, I feel like this game is very claustrophobic, with all its deathball and crampedness. However, this does seem to throw some curveballs to the pathing system. I had some marines and marauders at the top of and on my ramp and a couple tanks behind them. I told the tanks to go down the ramp and they all got stuck kind of running in circles trying to make way on the ramp. I think either the size needs to be made slightly smaller or the maps all need to be opened up, which is something that I actually favor anyway.
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thumbs up on this one seems well put together gonna go try it out now =)
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Yea just tried to make a game, it's somewhere around 20 pages down on the customs list. God I hate the way customs are listed ;( Is there a way to search for a game by name that's already made, and not goto create game, search for it by name, then wait for an opponent?
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This sounds awesome. What are "radius settings?" Unit size? Collision?
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@bahi:
In regards to unit size relative to map:I was actually thinking about this myself. I was toying with unit size settings and it felt very rough. The units ended up being really small and hard to see(especially units like zerglings and marines). I decided to leave it on radius.
What i actually found is that some of the SC1 unit pathing problems seemed to have magically come to exist. The unit clumping idea could have been blizzards way of "fixing" AI pathing, but thats not what this thread is about. I too have noticed some problems with units trying to run down ramps, and ironically this is similar to what happens in SC1. I will toy with it some more, if necessary ill try to make a bigger map.
@Reborn8u
Well i am glad you at least found the game. My best recommendation is to find someone you know and play it that way. When you make a custom game there is a search bar where you can find any custom game you like(even if you did not download it yet). Why this is not in the custom game list i dont know, ask blizzard =\.
@saracen
Thanks! I did not do any % gains on all units(ie i didnt say, ok everything 50% bigger). All units with .35 radius settings had their size increased to .565. Other units i manually adjusted until it "felt right." Stalkers is a big one i am worried about for now, but i really like how they moved so i kinda kept it that way lol. We will see what really happens.
As for unit collision. Unit collision looks ok. Zerglings arent attacking things from miles away and everything seems to work out.
On average i would say its a 2/3rds increase in size, but some units needed bigger increases(like tech units: immortals, siege tanks etc.).
Screenshots will be posted soon. Sorry i didnt think of that =\.
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Wow, that actually looks much nicer than the current SC2 unit sizes. You can actually see individual units like in BW. Just to be clear, it looks like the units stayed the same size, but they don't clump as much. Is that right?
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This is awesome! This is one of the long-running problems I've always had with SC2. I told myself since release: This cant possibly stay this way.. they're going to have to change the pathing...
It seems it wasn't an issue within blizzard, which is a big mistake on their part IMO.
What you did seems pretty darn good.
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I have high hopes for this, keep up the good work dood. I'm gonna try it out later today. Sounds like an awesome idea, my only query going in would be how well ramp blocking is going to be.
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On March 08 2011 21:05 aka_star wrote:
I have high hopes for this, keep up the good work dood. I'm gonna try it out later today. Sounds like an awesome idea, my only query going in would be how well ramp blocking is going to be.
That would add a huge factor to the defender's advantage so it's a step in the right direction. Keep up the work!
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Reminds me of BW so much. I think that this type of change would require extensive rebalancing, but would eventually be productive.
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I really can't wait to see it in EU , you need to find someone to publish it for you !
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This looks like a brilliant way of jury-rigging and improving the game engine to produce the BW-esque gameplay we all love. The deathball mechanic does seem to be quite detrimental to the current state of the SC2 metagame, and it will be difficult to address game balance with its existence.
Unfortunately, I think the "ball" formation mechanic is an offshoot of the improved pathfinding that Blizzard attempted to implement into SC2. IMO, the pathfinding AI and unit control in SC2 feels much more comfortable and fluid compared to BW or any other recent RTS. As someone said previously in the thread, increasing collision size might have detrimental effects on the unit pathing, especially through chokes.
It's interesting to see that early in SC2's development, a lot of the early preview screenshots did not show too many symptoms of the dreaded deathball. This mod's screenshots replicate those early images, and in a good way.
Nevertheless, I'm just really worried about the problems that this may cause to unit pathing. I've already suffered enough with trying to micro retarded Dragoons and Goliaths in BW.
Also, have you tried contacting Maverick for possibly implementing this into the SC2BW mod? It seems like it would be a good option to have there.
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Unfortunately, I think the "ball" formation mechanic is an offshoot of the improved pathfinding that Blizzard attempted to implement into SC2. IMO, the pathfinding AI and unit control in SC2 feels much more comfortable and fluid compared to BW or any other recent RTS. As someone said previously in the thread, increasing collision size might have detrimental effects on the unit pathing, especially through chokes.
With this in mind, it is always possible to fix the problematic ''death ball'' directly through the pathing algorythms. For example, in SCBW it was impossible to make 2 units in the same selection touch eachother. It just could not be done. If you told both units to move to a point precisely in between, they would always leave a space.
I haven't done any extensive research in the matter, but I do believe there are more of these types of specific rules all throughout the BW pathings. I myself believe that SC2 would benefit greatly from having a more breathe-friendly pathing system, similar to the one described in OP and in SCBW.
It would probably unbalance the game, which would be subject to further balancing, but in the long run it can only be good for the game as a whole. It's funner to watch, and it's easier to visualise exactly what's happening to a more realistic setting.
If you see 5 stalkers fighting 2 siege tanks, with adequate distance in between, you can easily visualise from the game what that must look like in person.
However, if you see a giant deathball of stalker/colossus fighting a giant ball of thor/siegetank (Not that this would ever happen but for thoughtcrafting purposes only) it's difficult to really see how that is...
The thor pathing in perticular is quite unfriendly to visual extrapolation. If you have 10 thors in a ball fighting it just makes no sense.. each one has it's face hugging another thor's backside.
In this map, this is greatly remedied.. Though this solution is not perfect, it is definitely a huge eye-relief.
I
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Intriguing concept!
Good luck on the pro mod, I'll try this map out once I'm in game. I also wish there was a search function in joining games as there is in creating them.
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Definitely a good map concept, My opinion is that deathballs are the number one thing wrong with the game right now, making it inferior both to play and to watch vs BW. I don't think blizz will take action to fix this unfortunately, but this map looks like an interesting solution to it.
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Nice idea, to bad I cannot test it out on EU. While I am not convinced that this improves the game, I am very curious as to the different feel in game play.
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Really cool idea. I'm wondering if you might want to balance units specifically for this variant, considering that the game has already been balanced around clumping. Playing this way would strongly discourage banelings, hellions, fungal growth, storm, siege tanks, and colossi. There would have to be a way to give those units/spells a role in this variant.
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Omg I'm excited (:
Now if only we could combine this with the Obs version... d:
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Marines would be imba cause banelings/colosses wont hit much
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On March 08 2011 20:52 Saracen wrote:
Wow, that actually looks much nicer than the current SC2 unit sizes. You can actually see individual units like in BW. Just to be clear, it looks like the units stayed the same size, but they don't clump as much. Is that right?
Essentially, yes.
Map will be on EU by tonight(or tomorrow) thank you Woozie.
As for the Ramp situation:
Similar to SC1, it is very easy to block a ramp. You will have to actually move units out of the way if you want all of your units to move up a ramp.
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These changes are great and they really should get considered by Blizzard.
I always thought it looked so bad when large units started fumbling around and clipping through each other.
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I just played a game on your map, and zerg seems OP. Terran MM gets stuck a lot by mass speedlings or BL. Basically zerglings can now hold their own since collision walls are created in engagements which favours swarmy playstyles.
Marines could do well with smaller collision sizes.
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On March 09 2011 16:14 febreze wrote:
I just played a game on your map, and zerg seems OP. Terran MM gets stuck a lot by mass speedlings or BL. Basically zerglings can now hold their own since collision walls are created in engagements which favours swarmy playstyles.
Marines could do well with smaller collision sizes.
thank you for your feedback! could you please post a replay?
I am not saying its your play that is the matter, but a replay will help with many things(this is for everyone) such as:
1) How much bigger/smaller marines need to be
2) What situations favor zerglings over marines.
3) Other fine details that may cause imbalance issues.
I knew ahead of time that Zerg might be a bit overpowered, but replays would tremendously help me fine tune the mod.
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I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong".
... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.
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On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.
Thank you for uploading! I will update the OP.
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On March 09 2011 17:12 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess. Thank you for uploading! I will update the OP.
I've tested it out now, and It's pretty cool mod! Gotta try against some friends later, but for now I've had a couple of matches against AI.
If anyones interested, replays below
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/455671/No Deathballs Replays.zip
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On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess.
I can't find the map on EU :'(
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My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place  .
Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t.
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On March 09 2011 21:38 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess. I can't find the map on EU :'(
Try searching "Cryosin" and you should find it.
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im trying to imagine some hellions vs single file (bw style) zerglings.....aaaahh my goose is getting cooked
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From the screenshots, things certainly look a lot more BW-esque. The deathball syndrome is definitely bad for the spectator aspect of SC2, notwithstanding balance issues. I hope Blizzard gets a look at this and at least considers these changes. I have a feeling that they will probably be too drastic for their liking. More's the pity.
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On March 09 2011 22:59 woozie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 21:38 Jetaap wrote:On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess. I can't find the map on EU :'( Try searching "Cryosin" and you should find it.
Nope. Doesn't show.
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On March 09 2011 23:41 nforce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:59 woozie wrote:On March 09 2011 21:38 Jetaap wrote:On March 09 2011 17:09 woozie wrote:I just published it on EU under the name "No Deathballs - Xel Naga - By Cryosin 'n Alongschlong". ... but I think Alongschlong got shafted, because when I checked the map after upload, "Alongschlong" wasn't part of the name anymore Too long map name I guess. I can't find the map on EU :'( Try searching "Cryosin" and you should find it. Nope. Doesn't show.
Weird. I'm sure that I can find it just fine ... :/
anyway, if you're online right now and wanna try it, you could try adding woozie.663 and I'll play with you ^^
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Can't find the map on EU - are you sure you uploaded it public and not private?
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Awesome idea, I'll try it out when possible.
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On March 10 2011 00:35 dezi wrote:
Can't find the map on EU - are you sure you uploaded it public and not private?
I did actually upload it as private -_-
It's fixed now though!
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Map is now working on EU , thanks Woozie!! I played a game against him, the idea is really nice but it needs to be improved/refined.
I think the colision size of zergling is a bit too big, it's really hard to manage a big ling army correctly. On the other hand I think you should change the roach and increase it's size ,I don't really see a reason for being able to stack roaches more than zerglings :p ,.
Stalkers are a bit too spread out as well i think , but keep it going the idea is really nice !
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I started up a writeup about deathballs in general, but it got long enough i decided to post it in blogs instead. I definitely think deathballs are a serious flaw in the game design of SC2, and would definitely like to see their effectiveness reduced.
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This is awesome, I just sadly don't see Blizzard ever changing this, because they are proud of their new and advanced "fluid" like mechanics, even if it is detremental to play
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Oh wow this looks so clean! I wish sc2 was like this, I hate the ball of units 
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For those who might be interested a replay of my game vs Woozie on this map, I think none of us was too serious about this game ( terrible macro by me ^^) , but it was really fun , and i think it's worth watching.I think it gives you an idea of the mod
Here it is:
zvt no deathball
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thats an interesting concept, we gotta make this one really popular so blizz implement it in HotS
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I think it's pretty obvious blizzard won't slap this band-aid fix on the game a year into it's life. But I also wonder if they will implement an artificial restriction to encourage more interesting styles of gameplay.
+In brood war, units were buggier and stupider as the army size increased.
+In war3 there was upkeep to encourage engagement in earlier stages.
But again, it really is too early to declare that the game won't evolve from 1A syndrome by itself.
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Love the idea and the implementation so far, with a bit of refinement and testing this could become a viable implementation for Blizzard. Looking forward to more playing and discussion in the thread, wish there was a way to get this a little more attention
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Thank you for all the responses. Please keep sending me replays, i am looking at all of them. I am currently working on a new version that will be up sometime next week.
Please keep your suggestions coming.
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Is the channel still SC Pro? I want to try this out but there's no one in the channel :[
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Good work but why the hate toward the deathball? Blame the players, not the game. It's not the game's fault that players don't know how to micro their armies.
One day players' deathballs will start to get destroyed by careful positioning and micro, they'll have no other choice but to step their game up, and stop doing a-move deathball
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I just played a game. It was amazing. So much better, i cant believe it. I knew the deathball thing was a problem and always hated it but i didn't realize how much it would affect the game. I played vs a terran ai at insane, just messing around. I got marine rushed very early(I wasn't ready lol), but anyways, i had a few stalkers and even though i lost i was actually able to micro my stalkers quite a bit to pick off some marines. This was because not all the marines were super clumped, all hitting at the same time. Stalker micro was much more present than retail. Not only that, but it looked far better, cleaner and more clear. Simply amazing, i really REALLY hope blizzard pays attention to this. Anyone who hasn't tried it, please try it. I felt like one of my major gripes about this game had vanished. SC2 isn't broodwar, I know, but this is definitely something that shouldve remained the same. SC2 clumping/deathball sucks... really bad.
Thank you Cryosin, for showing me how unit collision size makes a bigger difference than i had ever thought it did.
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Hopefully this catches on with the the big shots :D
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maybe some of you could join the "nodeathballs" chat channel and we could play/spectate some matches. Then i could make a video of some battles and a thread could be made in the sc2 general forum with the video to bring more attention to this. Anyone game?
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Suggestion for Pro mod: siege tanks overshoot like they did in sc1. Makes for zealot-bombs and other fun dynamics.
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I played quite a bit and even though i like it i think its a tad overdone. So i think the idea is good, but the unit collision size has been made too big. Reduce it a bit and it should be good. But so far its a bit too much. And i understand why you thought the stalker seems too big now lol. But i think reducing the collission size a bit should be good.
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A new version is in the works. I need one final thing to add though. Does anyone know how to make spectators work? For some reason it wont let me do it.
Things happening in the new version:
Unit sizes have been refined. Many units(including stalkers) have been made smaller.
Zealot, Sentry, and Roach now have their sizes properly increased.
Possible map change and/or increase in ramp size.
Spectator feature is in the works(can anyone help me with this?)
And i also would like to know what map(s) people would like the mod to be on. Please post your suggestions here.
The new version should be out either by friday or monday at the latest. Thanks again everyone for the feedback.
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As a first impression, zerglings are horribly huge. Fighting in the chokes leading to the natural felt like fighting an a small ramp, with 4 marauders completely blocking every movement. Got frustrated by that so no comments on late game armies.
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I think this is a very very good idea , but as mentioned it may be necessary to lower the radius of some units and increase those of others to balance it out better
Nevertheless great job man
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United States17042 Posts
On March 10 2011 14:49 Stane wrote:
Suggestion for Pro mod: siege tanks overshoot like they did in sc1. Makes for zealot-bombs and other fun dynamics.
I think that this is a game engine thing, and not easily modifiable
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On March 11 2011 01:35 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 14:49 Stane wrote:
Suggestion for Pro mod: siege tanks overshoot like they did in sc1. Makes for zealot-bombs and other fun dynamics. I think that this is a game engine thing, and not easily modifiable
SC2BW did that just fine.
You just need to make it have a projectile with some short but non-zero travel time, IIRC.
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On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t.
Please don't.
To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on.
Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them?
Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing.
Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
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I'm gonna side with the Pro-deathball argument here. Any unit that deals splash damage becomes waaaay less effective, and players with better micro won't be at as great of an advantage.
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I dont think Zerglings can be considered a death ball unless you're just really bad.
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On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
Are you a wizard? You just read my mind  Don't make SC2 into BW, SC2 is a new SC, if you dont like it no one's holding you here, go back to your stupid units
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Stop trying to make it a sc2 vs bw post please... this is a mod trying to improve some aspect of the game , you don't like it : don't play it , that's all ...
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On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
I think you're taking the intent of this mod the wrong way. The goal was not to make something "better", because better at this point is opinion.
In "my" opinion(and clearly many others), the "deathball" mechanic of SC2 is not very fun to play.
I am no trying to make this game more like BW(there is SC2BW mod, which is a great mod that does that).
All i want is for the game to feel much more open and spacious, which again is personal preference.
I think the mod community adjusting the game to their preferences is something blizzard actually wants.
For example:
ICCUP ladder was introduced by the community and was a big reason sc1 had its life prolonged so significantly.
Im not gonna say that my mod is prolonging the life of SC2, but thats what the mod community should be doing, in whatever way they can.
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this is just a terrible idea game balance wise...
All the splash units in the game were balanced around units clumping together more. Compare the size of storm in bw to the size of storm in sc2. In bw it was a lot bigger. Similarly, in sc2, tank splash radius is actually pretty small, just increasing the damage wont balance it out, you need to increase the radius so it still does splash at all. If splash units dont deal splash or they are doing like 50% less damage, MMM will just be invincible lol
i also just dont see the point of this other than making the game look a little prettier
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On March 11 2011 06:03 GhettoSheep wrote:
this is just a terrible idea game balance wise...
All the splash units in the game were balanced around units clumping together more. Compare the size of storm in bw to the size of storm in sc2. In bw it was a lot bigger. Similarly, in sc2, tank splash radius is actually pretty small, just increasing the damage wont balance it out, you need to increase the radius so it still does splash at all. If splash units dont deal splash or they are doing like 50% less damage, MMM will just be invincible lol
i also just dont see the point of this other than making the game look a little prettier
The radius of splash was increased as well.
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this looks to make the game fun to play again, i love using good unit control to gain advantages, and there are so many units in SC2 which seem to take advantage of this. stalkers, lings, immortals, even reapers.
The death ball makes the game ugly to watch and less fun to play, and in honesty it will highlight issues with bad players and they will start to realise that maybe they are losing games because of bad control
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On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
There is no way you were into broodwar before starcraft 2. If you were, you would see right away how this deathball clusterf**k looks horrible and seems incredibly wrong. Micro more fun? What part of moving a huge ball of units together requires micro? Its definitely your opinion, but i just cant see how someone could have followed the bw scene, then sc2 comes out and they honestly think the deathball thing was a good move. Yes sc2 is its own game, and yes its fine if its different, but it should be different in the sense that it improves upon its predecessor, not just different for the sake of being different, even if its in the wrong direction. SC2 is where the future of esports is, and people like OP simply want the game to be as close to perfect as possible, and i strongly believe that his mod is an improvement. Deathball makes the game nooby, and makes it hard on the spectators.
And i love blizzard and i think they are amazing, but i also think they make mistakes just like anyone else. And honestly, for a complex game like sc2, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T make any.
Anyways to OP, in your next version please choose a bigger map. With larger unit collision sizes, the maps are going to seem smaller and tighter, so a map like xelnaga won't do too well. I'd suggest one of the bigger more open blizzard maps.
Unit collision sizes I believe need to be toned down slightly. Right now the spacing seems a tad extreme. Also you talk about reducing the size of certain units like the stalker. Its funny because the stalker used to be smaller before blizz increased its size, did you know? Just thought I'd mention. Great work, keep it up.
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On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. ... I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry.
He's not trying to make it into BW (that's SC2:BW). He's trying to make it into SC2 without deathballs. And I'm getting really tired of seeing every attempt at changing things up met with the old "why don't you go play BW" retort.
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On March 11 2011 05:45 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry. I think you're taking the intent of this mod the wrong way. The goal was not to make something "better", because better at this point is opinion. In "my" opinion(and clearly many others), the "deathball" mechanic of SC2 is not very fun to play. I am no trying to make this game more like BW(there is SC2BW mod, which is a great mod that does that). All i want is for the game to feel much more open and spacious, which again is personal preference. I think the mod community adjusting the game to their preferences is something blizzard actually wants. For example: ICCUP ladder was introduced by the community and was a big reason sc1 had its life prolonged so significantly. Im not gonna say that my mod is prolonging the life of SC2, but thats what the mod community should be doing, in whatever way they can.
Just to clarify, that wasn't directed at you. I understand that you were innocently making a legitimate mod that impacts gameplay significantly, and I noticed you were already evaluating the way it affected gameplay, so clearly you're doing something productive here that you enjoy.
I was more reacting to posts like the one I quoted and expressing a general dissatisfaction for the idea that SC2 is broken because it's not BW.
I hope you get tons of good feedback and an awesome community response.I have absolutely nothing against your mod, the idea is very compelling and could lead to some interesting gameplay. but the idea that this is the direction Blizz should take in balancing the game is just silly because it would completely defeat a lot of the new mechanics they worked so hard to implement.
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Seeing the OP you kind of realise that 'balance' can be quite subjectiv
Props to you for trying to make something even tough personally I never really understood what his wrong with closely packed units, I mean a line of roach will definitly beat the crap out of a ball of roaché
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On March 11 2011 09:11 gun.slinger wrote:Seeing the OP you kind of realise that 'balance' can be quite subjectiv Props to you for trying to make something even tough personally I never really understood what his wrong with closely packed units, I mean a line of roach will definitly beat the crap out of a ball of roaché
Imagine a 200/200 army in SC2, which I'm sure you've seen before. Now imagine that same army with this mod, spread across half the map and engaging on multiple fronts. This mod will definitely allow those sort of epic battles to happen and that is something I'm sure many people would like to see. So far, no pro SC2 games I have watched have that large-scale feel because everything clumps so tightly. This mod seeks to change that.
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The question I have is, is it possible at all to clump units?
This is some pic I found off of google, but it serves it's purposes. While units in BW would spread out quite naturally, you COULD still clump them up if you needed too very tightly. I'm sure you've seen Zerg's in BW clump up their groups of lings so that they take up less space, and tanks often would clump up into very tight groups.
If you can't have units to the point where they are actually touching then IMO it would take a small part of the game away and it might look a little strange. Obviously I have to play the map before I can comment on how natural it would play out in a normal game, but that's just one of my concerns.
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I think you're right about the clumping in bw , unit could clump , but they couldn't move in a ball formation . I think it was a consequence of the pathing algorithm in broodwar , and the fact that units could only move in 8 directions, so it would be really hard to make things work like they did in broodwar. However it doesn't mean that increasing unit colision size is not a good idea , it might be enough to improve the gameplay.
Concerning the maps I think you should definitely try somes of the big gsl maps.
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New version out. Just create a game and the update will download. Steppes of War is also available as a map.
Please check em out!
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Battles look way way more impressive
If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all.
I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are.
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i dont understand how people see deathball engagement as more impressive than a BW style unit spread that has several small scenarios going on where units are flanking, target firing in groups, kiting and retreating when weakened, moving out of each others way etc. Deathballs largely isolate small micro scenarios within fights in favour of huge 1a fests.
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On March 11 2011 10:21 0mgVitaminE wrote:If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all. I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are.
But it DOES affect gameplay. Flanking and getting a good spread are way more important with this. With deathball, the spread doesnt matter, you can right click, 1a click, right click, a click, your ranged units forward and since they're so close they would all get shots in. Here a spread is necessary and melee units naturally benefit from it as well, which i think is a good thing.
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Great idea OP, as someone who's only seen a few BW games, the multiple fronted micro battles were much more enjoyable to watch than the majority of current 1a style games I'm used to seeing in SC2, can't wait to give it a go in the morning!
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 11 2011 07:58 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:45 Cryosin wrote:On March 11 2011 02:57 Fateless wrote:On March 09 2011 22:30 GinDo wrote:My question is why didnt Blizzard do this in the 1st place . Now we have to spam this on the Blizzard Forums so it gets implemented. I seriously think Zergs problem is the fact that everything clumps. Zerg just dies to splash so badly. Before in BW with enough stuff they could over-run tanks, but now they can;t. Please don't. To OP I think your exploration of this mod is great, and none of the following is meant to insult your mod. I might be the only one, but I seriously think you should either just play BW or enjoy SC2 as its own game. This is getting kind of sad, it's like when your favorite dog dies and you get him stuffed instead of moving on. Why didn't Blizzard do this? Because they were trying to make a new game, this shit is unbelievable, Blizzard puts out another quality product after 10 years of research and development and all I hear is that it's either too much like BW or not enough like BW. Furthermore Blizzard employs the most talented game designers and artists in the f-ing world. Do you seriously think changing a couple of settings in the editor (THAT THEY BUILT!) is beyond them? Am I the only one who thinks micro is way more fun now? Battles look way way more impressive, Blizzard added a SHITLOAD of new mechanics, units, and content and still maintains a level of balance that is untouchable in the industry. But then someone changes a couple of settings and we get "ZOMG! SOMEONE TELL BLIZZARD WE FIXED THE GAME!" If blizzard made a balance patch like this people would shit their pants because the game would be completely broken and ten years of work would be for nothing. Sorry about the soap box, I'm just really getting tired of people just carelessly throwing our crit the game company that has done more to make awesome games and maintain a quality product then anyone else in the industry. I think you're taking the intent of this mod the wrong way. The goal was not to make something "better", because better at this point is opinion. In "my" opinion(and clearly many others), the "deathball" mechanic of SC2 is not very fun to play. I am no trying to make this game more like BW(there is SC2BW mod, which is a great mod that does that). All i want is for the game to feel much more open and spacious, which again is personal preference. I think the mod community adjusting the game to their preferences is something blizzard actually wants. For example: ICCUP ladder was introduced by the community and was a big reason sc1 had its life prolonged so significantly. Im not gonna say that my mod is prolonging the life of SC2, but thats what the mod community should be doing, in whatever way they can. Just to clarify, that wasn't directed at you. I understand that you were innocently making a legitimate mod that impacts gameplay significantly, and I noticed you were already evaluating the way it affected gameplay, so clearly you're doing something productive here that you enjoy. I was more reacting to posts like the one I quoted and expressing a general dissatisfaction for the idea that SC2 is broken because it's not BW. I hope you get tons of good feedback and an awesome community response.I have absolutely nothing against your mod, the idea is very compelling and could lead to some interesting gameplay. but the idea that this is the direction Blizz should take in balancing the game is just silly because it would completely defeat a lot of the new mechanics they worked so hard to implement.
First - thumbs up to both of you, unlike many others on this site you were able to have a really civlized argument despite having very opposing positions. Nice to see that happen every once in a while.
I don't have much to say on the whole topic and the mod itself, just one thing to you fateless, while I do agree that SC2 is a new game and know that it will not ever be BW (BW can not be replicated, many things that made bw so balanced and great were actually because of the *bad engine* of broodwar - which others might call genius, a matter of opinion. ) I do think you should keep in mind that whatever makes this a better game is a step in the right direction - be it more bw-esque or not, if SC2 is broken or not, BW became as balanced and good as it was because people were open for change and discussed about stuff. Without change a game can not evolve. Sure it might've been someone who had the exact attitude you adressed, but it really shouldn't matter if it really improves the game, no? I'm a BW'er and if something that was in W3 got implemented to SC2 and made it a lot better game I would appreciate that as well for example.
That's pretty much all I wanted to add! 
Cheers
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Wow. A mod that addresses my biggest problem with the game! Thanks so much.
Not that I think they would, but if blizzard implemented this (or at least spaced units out a bit more) the game would be so much better (though it probably would need balance adjustments).
Question: is your mod like BW where the units naturally stay spread, but you can micro them close together like zergling walls?
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Nice job! I'll definitely check this out at some point. Units that ball up less is something SC2 really needs to make it more fun to both play and watch.
Also, maybe I missed it in the OP, but does this affect ramp blocking? Are you able to block the ramp with just 1 or 2 units like in BW?
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Isn't there a more simple way to get rid of deathballs? Uhh like making a unit selection cap.
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On March 12 2011 12:28 Essentia wrote:
Isn't there a more simple way to get rid of deathballs? Uhh like making a unit selection cap.
That might get rid of the ability to move a giant ball with just 1a, but it wouldnt change the fact that all units will still be super tightly clumped which is both bad for the game and bad for spectators.
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A very novel idea for the BW fans, good to see someone trying to change the gameplay.
Like a previous poster said, I will agree that this should just stay a custom and not be implemented into the game itself. BW had the no-deathballing syndrome and unit selection cap due to the game engine back then, i'm sure it wasn't intentionally made to have 'huge scale' battles. Micro was more taxing and difficult just due to that- a limited game engine.
(If anything i find flanking to be more difficult in this game, it's harder to select just a few units in one box to spread out, rather than just grabbing a full control group from BW)
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Dude. Seriously.
people keep saying starcraft 2 has no micro, and will have no micro.
I realize a lot of us are from different games and backgrounds, but here's a concept that I don't think is explained well enough, so I'm going to try:
starcraft 1 was not "figured out" within 1 year of beta... At this point, barring huge imbalances, people were figuring out unit mixes and the fastest way to move stuff out. War2 players had a vastly new engine to explore, physics were tight as a drum...there's 10 years of unexplored tactics and strategery for sc2, and this map is not moving us in the right direction
starcraft 2 micro:
+ Show Spoiler +micro in brood war was fairly straightforward: the AI is bad so you have to make up for that, meanwhile avoiding the 1 hit death units and splash damage. of course it's endlessly more complex, but the goals are obvious.
starcraft 2 micro so far often revolves around positioning and map abuse, better concaves and things like that. it's definitely more abstract.
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On March 12 2011 16:53 jimmyjingle wrote:
Dude. Seriously.
people keep saying starcraft 2 has no micro, and will have no micro.
I realize a lot of us are from different games and backgrounds, but here's a concept that I don't think is explained well enough, so I'm going to try:
starcraft 1 was not "figured out" within 1 year of beta... At this point, barring huge imbalances, people were figuring out unit mixes and the fastest way to move stuff out. War2 players had a vastly new engine to explore, physics were tight as a drum...there's 10 years of unexplored tactics and strategery for sc2, and this map is not moving us in the right direction
starcraft 2 micro:
micro in brood war was fairly straightforward: the AI is bad so you have to make up for that, meanwhile avoiding the 1 hit death units and splash damage. of course it's endlessly more complex, but the goals are obvious.
starcraft 2 micro so far often revolves around positioning and map abuse, better concaves and things like that. it's definitely more abstract.
Are you implying BW doesn't have that? It has way more positioning, map abuse and other abstract concepts than sc2. Maybe you should watch some BW games some time. ;;
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Thank you for all the responses guys. EU Should have the new patch momentarily.
I am becoming very busy lately so updates will be somewhat less frequent, but i will be doing a very big update next including spectators and possibly other features. Stay tuned.
I am currently looking to make a youtube video featuring the mod.
Everyone please send me your replays so i can find some awesome clips. At this time i only have ONE replay of a player vs player game.
I understand that its hard to find players to play because of blizzards UMS design, but my best suggestion is to go to either "SC Pro" or "No Deathballs" Chat channels. There aren't always people in them but if someone wanders in give them a holler =D.
Please keep sending feedback and replays. I understand that some balance problems are bound to come to light, therefore i need all of your help in spotting them. I am also very busy right now so i wont have much time to play, but if you see me in the channel(s) give me a shout out and i will gladly do some games.
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On March 12 2011 17:36 maybenexttime wrote:
Are you implying BW doesn't have that?
no. I'm saying that people's skill and finesse makes interesting micro battles, not an old engine or warcraft 3 sized units.
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How does this go with Zergling Surrounds?
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On March 12 2011 11:39 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 10:21 0mgVitaminE wrote:Battles look way way more impressive If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all. I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are. But it DOES affect gameplay. Flanking and getting a good spread are way more important with this. With deathball, the spread doesnt matter, you can right click, 1a click, right click, a click, your ranged units forward and since they're so close they would all get shots in. Here a spread is necessary and melee units naturally benefit from it as well, which i think is a good thing.
I was only talking about the visuals themselves. Obviously the no-deathball aspect is going to affect gameplay greatly. I was merely responding to the "better looking battles" post, which I greatly disagree with.
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On March 13 2011 20:03 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 11:39 pzea469 wrote:On March 11 2011 10:21 0mgVitaminE wrote:Battles look way way more impressive If you're saying this based on the visuals, then ya I guess that makes sense but doesn't reflect gameplay at all. I have no interest in the graphics when watching high level games. Lurker/ling/defiler's (and many other unit comp's) beauty in bw came from the difficulty in controlling the army, not how it looked or how smooth the units moved. A well executed flank or a great swarm is what I like to see, not how shiny the new units are. But it DOES affect gameplay. Flanking and getting a good spread are way more important with this. With deathball, the spread doesnt matter, you can right click, 1a click, right click, a click, your ranged units forward and since they're so close they would all get shots in. Here a spread is necessary and melee units naturally benefit from it as well, which i think is a good thing. I was only talking about the visuals themselves. Obviously the no-deathball aspect is going to affect gameplay greatly. I was merely responding to the "better looking battles" post, which I greatly disagree with.
Oh, sorry, I understand.
As far as looking better, besides it being prettier, in an eye candy sense which is more an opinion thing, its also easier to see individual units which I think is good for both players and spectators.
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I'm not sure how I feel about this affecting balance but what seems problematic is, how will we have space for armies once players hit 3 or more bases? It would seem that on maps with chokes or little space for movement once you're pushing 170+ supply your army would become more of a liability to control on the battlefield.
I see how this could be of great value to armies skirmishing from 2 or even 1 base, but if both players play passively or either side holds a push whilst playing economically we're put in a situation where, with the some of the maps currently in use both on the ladder and in some tournaments, it becomes extremely hard for a player with slower units to engage against a faster army without getting parts of his army cut off or being attacked whilst maneuvering through a narrow space.
This very well might be a problem with maps though, I'm very interested to see how it feels and plays out in-game.
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Here's an idea, why not make the unit spread based on user input? Add a couple of buttons that allow you to increase or decrease the gap the units use. This way instead of just making a flat change that requires you to tweak all of the units you can leave everything in tact, and it will be up to the player to choose the spacing they want to use based on the current situation. So if I'm terran facing toss, I can space out my marines to help negate colossus splash damage but would make myself more vulnerable to zealots. I don't know if the editor would allow you to do something like this, but I feel like it would add a lot of dimension to your mod.
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This may be quite possibly the dumbest idea ever, but you should make it so that the player can only select one control card of units at a time; ie make the selecting limit 24. The would increase that SCBW feeling while keeping the pathing system similar to SC2 (something that I absolutely hating in SCBW). You should also use the gsl maps, which are way bigger and would lead to the more trench line conflicts that were prevalent in SCBW.
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On March 14 2011 02:58 Piscean wrote:
This may be quite possibly the dumbest idea ever, but you should make it so that the player can only select one control card of units at a time; ie make the selecting limit 24. The would increase that SCBW feeling while keeping the pathing system similar to SC2 (something that I absolutely hating in SCBW). You should also use the gsl maps, which are way bigger and would lead to the more trench line conflicts that were prevalent in SCBW.
This will be happening in the next update. Is there a specific map you guys would like to be used?
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On March 14 2011 05:30 Cryosin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 02:58 Piscean wrote:
This may be quite possibly the dumbest idea ever, but you should make it so that the player can only select one control card of units at a time; ie make the selecting limit 24. The would increase that SCBW feeling while keeping the pathing system similar to SC2 (something that I absolutely hating in SCBW). You should also use the gsl maps, which are way bigger and would lead to the more trench line conflicts that were prevalent in SCBW. This will be happening in the next update. Is there a specific map you guys would like to be used?
Use tal'darim altar, That map is pretty large and would be perfect for this. I like the idea I haven't tried it out yet, hope for the best. I don't really like the whole "deathball" thing either. I think zealots with charge would be much better with spacing.
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Does anyone want to take over the mod? I have been really busy lately and i dont think i will have the time to commit to something like this. I would really love for some talented individuals to take this mod even further, and i dont think i will have the time to carry this mod where it needs to go.
Send me a PM if you're interested.
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Was anyone else able to stack mutalisks in this mod? I'm not sure if that's supposed to be the case or what, but I got mutalisks to stack once or twice.
I'd take over the mod if I had the patience and the dedication, but sadly, I'm a very lazy person.
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I played through this mod as Terran, and I was slightly irritated that my Bioballs weren't as scary as before. Some of the ramps need to be widened, and I need to be more careful about building placement since the larger collision radius does weird things to the pathing, as expected.
Also, I almost never play against the AI, so it was amusing to see the Very Hard Protoss spam Warp Prisms and Immortals against my 4 Siege Tanks.
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Is this mod still being worked on or is it dead?
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I played through this mod as Terran, and I was slightly irritated that my Bioballs weren't as scary as before.
That's sort of the point. Protoss and Terran can't just deathball 1A into the enemy.
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I tried this custom map out and it felt really good. It made it easier to visualize and control. Gotta keep lings and other units on seperate hotkeys though otherwise lings just move as slow as roaches (which is a good thing!). I can really see this as a way to improve not only gameplay itself but to improve visualizing the game play. I think the mod's radius is just slightly too big, but otherwise it's really good.
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Is this mod still being worked on or is it dead?
I think it's dead, the maker had no time to work on the mod , he asked for someone to take it over but looks like nobody did :s. Too bad , I had a couple fun games on this map.
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One thing I noticed was that units should still be able to clump together on command, but when they are moving together as a group, then they separate from each other. How it is now there is a set radius space between units.
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I'm curious as how you did this in the editor. I'm also curious if units clumped would stay clumped if you moved them short distances. In BW they would clump if it were short distances but would line if it were long distances.
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I see that people are still interested in this concept.
Its summer time now and i a have lots of free time again. Yes, no one apparentl wanted to take over, but i guess that just means ill continue working on it.
I have looked at all of your suggestions and will be making some slight changes.
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I recently applied a hotfix to the mod.
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Hotfix applied:
I recently noticed there was a problem with mining units. Since their size increased, as more and more of them piled up on a mineral line their mining capability significantly increased as well. I will be looking at a reasonable way to fix this issue but in the meantime miners have had their unit sizes reduced back to retail. All other units will remain unchanged.
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I am making some huge plans to update this mod. Please keep playing and leaving me feedback.
The work on SC pro mod(with the radius increase included) is beginning, but i need your help!
Please keep leaving feedback and replays so i can fine tune this mod and make it work.
Also: Steppes of War is now the official map. its much bigger and wider so it should allow for more open engagements.
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good
User was warned for this post
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EPT![[image loading]](http://rakrent.com/rtsc/pix/scbw/scbw-melee.jpg)
