|
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA.
|
On August 01 2010 09:25 SharkSpider wrote:
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA.
Except that the problem is with all custom games, not just with FMP.
Blizzard is blocking users from playing what they want to. It's not intentional, they are just trying to create a good way of letting users pick among hundreds of thousands of games. Unfortunately, they are being way too restrictive.
|
On August 01 2010 09:25 SharkSpider wrote:
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA.
I think you're confused. SC ladder wasn't popular because it wasn't set to fastest, it was set to fast. It wasn't because people wanted to play money maps (i think that's what you are getting at?)
Besides, SC2 has matchmaking and even if you dont like the divisions the ladder is much more attractive to players than playing custom games, they don't need to conspire to ruin custom games so that people will play ladder. They just need to support the ladder, which they do.
The fact is, the custom map system sucks for the same reason so many other parts of bnet2 sucks. It was poorly thought out and implemented.
|
On August 01 2010 09:25 SharkSpider wrote:
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA.
How is any of this supposed to stop people from playing fastest?
|
@SharkSpider,
SC and SC2 melee are meant to be 1v1 games. I know there is 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 but the game wasnt designed or balanced for that.
DotA on the other hand is no less competitive than SC or SC2 melee, but it is meant to be played as 5v5 with teamwork involved. Top DotA players top 280 APM easily.
Bnet2.0 is screwed up and tons of ppl are raging about it.
|
On July 30 2010 06:48 luxx wrote:![[image loading]](http://sclegacy.com/features/sc2beta/b.netconcerns/Join-Custom-Game.jpg) Prototype Map Search Interface as shown at BlizzCon 2009.
They fucking need this, when a map has multiple playing modes. (like Marine arena, pick: classic, fast, fast double income, fastest triple income.) Same with Dota.
Just fucked up joining a pubic game without knowing what mode you will be playing. They should bring back individual game room with their own title.
|
On August 01 2010 11:16 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2010 09:25 SharkSpider wrote:
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA. I think you're confused. SC ladder wasn't popular because it wasn't set to fastest, it was set to fast. It wasn't because people wanted to play money maps (i think that's what you are getting at?) Besides, SC2 has matchmaking and even if you dont like the divisions the ladder is much more attractive to players than playing custom games, they don't need to conspire to ruin custom games so that people will play ladder. They just need to support the ladder, which they do. The fact is, the custom map system sucks for the same reason so many other parts of bnet2 sucks. It was poorly thought out and implemented.
I'm not confused, it just seems highly unlikely that the same company that made a pretty functional ladder system would make a custom map system that put roadblocks in the way of competitive custom map playing without at least thinking about what it would do. If we give blizzard even a little credit with how they designed bnet, custom games are supposed to be like facebook games. You play the ones that boatloads of people have thumbed-up but if you want to be serious you should be playing blizzard's maps on blizzard's ladder.
I'm not saying that it was intentional sabotage, but as someone in business, I know what it looks like when companies try to direct traffic, and bnet 2.0 has 'casual' branded all over custom maps and 'esports' branded all over quick match leagues. I can't claim to have a big sample size, but from my own group of friends, it appears to have worked. More people are opting to ladder in lower divisions than to play money maps or spend all day UMSing, and I rarely see someone do custom games more than a few times in a row before going back to playing starcraft on regular starcraft maps.
If you consider leagues, the fact that you no longer have to play too many games where you get stomped, the inefficiencies of custom maps and the setup of bnet 2.0, Blizzard really has done a decent job streamlining players in to just playing games like they'd do on xbox live. Obviously this has merits to it, but I personally disagree with the general sense of things and so do a lot of veteran SC players. But the fact is that bnet is working pretty close to how blizzard's views on competitive gaming have been, and I doubt these issues are just oversight.
|
@SharkSpider,
you are seriously confused. if all Blizz wanted SC2 to be was melee scrims only, they would have given us a map editor that only place doodads, terrains and start locations.
ever since the days of SC1, there have always been strong demands from the community to increase the power of map editor. the only benefit of it was for custom games.
|
On August 01 2010 16:39 SharkSpider wrote:
If you consider leagues, the fact that you no longer have to play too many games where you get stomped, the inefficiencies of custom maps and the setup of bnet 2.0, Blizzard really has done a decent job streamlining players in to just playing games like they'd do on xbox live. Obviously this has merits to it, but I personally disagree with the general sense of things and so do a lot of veteran SC players. But the fact is that bnet is working pretty close to how blizzard's views on competitive gaming have been, and I doubt these issues are just oversight.
So you think they made a shitty custom map interface so people have to play ladder?
...
|
bumping this here because I know blizz reads these boards from time to time.
|
On August 01 2010 09:25 SharkSpider wrote:
Ever consider that maybe the terrible, terrible custom map system has something to do with Blizzard's vision for esports?
Back in SC1, basically everyone who would have been a copper-gold player equivalent was playing Fastest because it simply took less skill to play it. Some of those players got really really good at it, but the fact was that the majority of the bnet community chose easy over hard. Same thing with WC3 and DOTA, and this time it was to the extent that it was virtually impossible to play any other custom game after a while.
Maybe blizzard doesn't want the majority of the community playing the game in easymode, so they gave us a pretty decent matchmaking system for 1v1s and a piece of crap for custom games. It would definitely throw a wrench in any sort of competitive community evolving for games like fastest or DOTA.
An interesting point. I can only hope that you're right, in my dreams I envision the designers being as elitist as us, but I doubt it's the reality.
In truth, as their other games have shown, they are much more interested in the casual gamer.
Those of us who are hardcore will always be the minority, and minorities don't bring in the dough.
|
On August 01 2010 16:46 dybydx wrote:
@SharkSpider,
you are seriously confused. if all Blizz wanted SC2 to be was melee scrims only, they would have given us a map editor that only place doodads, terrains and start locations.
ever since the days of SC1, there have always been strong demands from the community to increase the power of map editor. the only benefit of it was for custom games.
I'm not 'seriously confused', I'm just pointing out the fact that nothing about the custom map system says 'custom games are serious business' and that blizzard isn't incompetent enough to design a random system that doesn't work for what it's supposed to do.
I'm saying that maybe it's not an oversight by blizzard, and that many community members have a view on custom maps that differs from what blizzard things about them. Blizzard appears to have designed the custom map system based on having players play a few of the most popular custom maps casually. Players who want to be able to play them seriously just aren't part of that picture, and it shows.
|
I know i am supposed to contribute to this forum and all and not just copy paste, but this sums it up
Maybe they could just copy Bnet 1.0 system and it get it over with.
have 2000 people tell that to blizzard and they might get the message
Bnet 2.0 takes 5 steps backwards for a single step forward
oh and the step forward was the HD graphics
|
On August 02 2010 03:50 SharkSpider wrote:Blizzard appears to have designed the custom map system based on having players play a few of the most popular custom maps casually. Players who want to be able to play them seriously just aren't part of that picture, and it shows.
While it is true that some of the issues, like the popularity system, are by design, some of the other issues I pointed out, like the publishing system, are more likely unanticipated outcomes by Blizzard. It could be caused by rushed development or a focus on other areas, but these seem like bugs to me, not intentional design decisions.
I doubt Blizzard intended the average user to quit the game, load the editor and publish a map that someone else made every time they want to play a downloaded map. There is no reason they would make it intentionally hard, not when they created such a great editor. The publishing system is new too, and no matter how convoluted it is for non-authors to host maps, developing something like that is not free.
Even if you do not believe that, Blizzard was very excited about offering paid map content in the future. The worse off free custom content is, the harder it will be to convince users to pay. You could argue that they are crippling the system intentionally, with plans to roll out a better system for those who pay. I think that would just make it harder to sell though - not only would they be charging for something that was previously free, but they would be crippling the system before it reached critical mass.
I can't really see any motivation for Blizzard to cripple their system, not after investing so much into it.
|
On July 31 2010 19:38 QuothTheRaven wrote:
While I do agree that the system is messed up right now, you need to add this as a possible way to host a custom map:
4. Know the name of the map that you want to host and use the search bar to find it.
This works even when conditions 1, 2, and 3 are all false.
When hosting a custom game the search ONLY searches within
Blizzard Maps
Popular
Recently Played
My Published
Correct me if I am wrong, but I see no way to search "All" maps when creating a game. If the map is not in one of those 4 lists, but it is on your computer, there is no way to host without republishing.
Edit: I did not mention in the original post, but has anyone else noticed the search seems very bad? If I type in Defense or TD I get no results, even though there are clearly maps with that in the name.
|
On August 02 2010 05:59 luxx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 19:38 QuothTheRaven wrote:
While I do agree that the system is messed up right now, you need to add this as a possible way to host a custom map:
4. Know the name of the map that you want to host and use the search bar to find it.
This works even when conditions 1, 2, and 3 are all false. When hosting a custom game the search ONLY searches within Blizzard Maps Popular Recently Played My Published Correct me if I am wrong, but I see no way to search "All" maps when creating a game. If the map is not in one of those 4 lists, but it is on your computer, there is no way to host without republishing. Edit: I did not mention in the original post, but has anyone else noticed the search seems very bad? If I type in Defense or TD I get no results, even though there are clearly maps with that in the name.
The two boxes on the left don't limit or restrict your search.
For example, when I select "My Published" on the left, and then search "iCCup," it comes up with all of the maps made by the iCCup mapmaking team, even though I didn't publish any of those myself.
The search engine is a little strange, though. When you search for a term, it only looks for maps whose name STARTS with that.
For example, there is a map called "Vexal Tower Defense" on the US server (arbitrary example). Searching for "Vexal" will show the map, as will searching for "Vexal Tower" and "Vexal Tower Defense." However, searching for "Tower" or "Tower Defense" will NOT show the map.
Likewise, if I want to find the map "iCCup Fighting Spirit" (which is a pretty popular map to begin with), the searches "Fighting," "Fighting Spirit," and "prodiG" (map maker's name) all come up empty; only the searches "iCCup," "iCCup Fighting," or "iCCup Fighting Spirit" will display the proper result.
(This is why "defense" as a search term comes up empty, since no map names START with the word defense).
I have no idea why the search engine is operating this way. It's a horribly designed search, but it DOES work IF you know exactly what to search for.
|
Another thing that irks me about the custom games is the mapmakers themselves. All we've had so far seems to be crappy TD's and other remakes. We haven't started getting any creative custom games which uses the full potential of the editor. Is it too early, or are they just hidden under all the piles of TD shit?
|
posting because the current system really sucks ass.
It has some merits, but overall the old wc3 system was way better.
I really hope they will change it, but I also highly doubt it.
|
Help spread the word and our aggravation with the current state of SC2 custom maps. Up vote this reddit which links to this post.
|
On August 02 2010 10:36 Shauni wrote:
Another thing that irks me about the custom games is the mapmakers themselves. All we've had so far seems to be crappy TD's and other remakes. We haven't started getting any creative custom games which uses the full potential of the editor. Is it too early, or are they just hidden under all the piles of TD shit?
Mappers created over 2000 custom maps before beta ended, I don't see how you can blame them. Of course, you'll never see these maps, because no one can host them. I have hundreds of maps from beta, and try to republish 5 per night, but it takes so dam long that I just given up.
Mappers will stop making maps if there is not a better way to host maps. I mean, what motivation do I have to make a map when the fate of whether my map is among the 50 visible maps (out of the thousands that are created) depends entirely on a goofy popularity formula? I can't email the map file to my friend, or post the file on my blog, or on a map site, because no one can download it and host it. None of my friends can host the map, but even if they did republish the map, no one can join their game.
Your question should not be
"Why have mappers not made anything good?" but instead it should be
"Why would mappers bother investing time into a map with this system?"
I suspect that mappers, like the rest of community, simply had no idea it was this bad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
