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On March 18 2012 21:45 GreenFate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 20:11 Coopa826 wrote:On March 18 2012 19:53 GreenFate wrote:
I feel Zerg is the most powerful race overall, because of larvae system which makes you so flexible and allows macro mistakes. On the other hand, Terrans dominating code S may be due to the fact that stellar control makes your units much more powerful, that's why it only happens in code S ! The Zerg macro mechanic, you call it larvae system, does NOT allow macro mistakes. If you dont inject you have almost no units. Protoss can Chronoboost as many buildings as they want if they dont use chrono properly And i dont really have to talk about terran right? If they forget about their macro mechanic they get instantly rich by throwing 10 mules on one base or they have free detection and vision all over the map. Please never say zerg allows macro mistakes again -.- ' If you dont inject you have almost no units.' Yeah I play zerg, so I actually noticed that ... But even at my low level (plat) I'm okay with injects (relatively to my level), and I feel it's much easier for a zerg to inject regularly than for a terran to make units regularly from different kind of buildings. Yeah the zerg also has to make units ... from one control group of hatch ... not the hardest thing in the world I think.
if you are plat and have no problem with injects I envy you. Im low/mid masters and away from the earlygame I have a really hard time timing injects on all hatcheries while other things are going on. During say an 6-7-8gate I find it terribly hard to keep the timings and lategame more or less all my queens end up with full energy. Ive laddered all races seperatly to diamond/master (toss was a long time ago though, before masterleague :p) and I must say that zergs macromechanic is probably least forgiving.
This does in no way constitute imbalance though and I do in no way feel zerg is UP.
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On March 18 2012 22:02 Clbull wrote:
In my opinion (and this is pure opinion, coming from a low levelled player so disregard it if you will), it depends on the matchup but.
TvP
I feel like in this matchup, Protoss are super weak until they get Sentries then they become able to hold a lot of bio pushes. But it's when you see the colossus/storm mix that P turns from competing with Terran to overpowering them.
Yes, Ghosts exist but they are pretty hard to control, especially when an Observer in the right place could easily deny any EMPs or Snipes headed towards your HTs.
Additionally, the Snipe nerf has made chargelots harder to kill, as if they weren't hard enough to kill already. I mean a 150HP unit that is significantly more difficult to kite.
I think the issue with Protoss in PvT is how overly powerful storm is. Then again, blame Blizzard more for this because they made a 55HP unit one of the terran's staple units whereas Protoss and Zerg have infantry units with much higher health.
PvZ
PvZ is complicated, but generally, Protoss doesn't have a whole lot that can let them deal with Brood Lords. Yes, they have air but those airborne units are very weak for their expense and often require a sweeping tech switch just to make it a game changer. For instance, the Phoenix, whilst costing 150 Minerals and 100 Gas is in reality kinda useless in the later game.
Then there's the Void Ray, costing 250 Minerals and 150 Gas and often seen in cheese builds relying on the element of surprise to overwhelm your opponent.
And then there's the Carrier and Mothership.... There's a reason why these units are rarely ever used... They're expensive, they take a long time to build and their effectiveness is questionable.
Plus if the Protoss has air? Make more Corruptors. Not only does it let you keep air control but it lets you morph more Brood Lords later if you really want to.
Yes, Stalkers can and have butchered Brood Lords before but who really wants to blink into a solid, biological wall of fungal growths, hydralisks and roaches anyway?
ZvT
Out of all the matchups, I feel ZvT is the most balanced right now. However, Tier 3 throws a lot of Terrans off guard and most of the things that would come from this tier are just ridficulously hard for Terran to deal with.
You may remember a quote from Destiny saying "I only make Ultralisks when I'm really far ahead and want to lose", but in reality Stephano uses a lot of them in his play and somehow makes it succeed.
Three ultras are very hard to deal with without like..... 10+ Marauders which you wouldn't even think of building in the mid game unless you scouted a mass roach strategy. They take up 2 supply instead of 1, attack slower than Terran units and their only forte is being able to pack a punch against armored units and slow anything non-Massive down.
Now imagine a Zerg who went 12 Ultralisks and hits a timing where no marine tank medivac force could take it down? That's the ridiculousness of ZvT.
Ghosts used to be the ideal late game unit because they could not only take down Brood Lords before they annihilate your army but could do the same towards Ultralisks, albeit needing more snipes. Now? Snipe feels a bit underpowered.
Mothership is hardly rarely used. It is the only real solution protoss has to a zerg BL, infestor etc ball.. and its a damn good solution. Id say ZvP is horribly zergfavoured lategame before the mothership (if the zerg has brood infestor that is) but turns around completly when the mothership arrives. Corruptors sure, they can kill a mothership but in all honesty the mothership is only there for one reason and thats a vortex. Unless you suicide 20corruptors alone into it you wont kill it without it getting an vortex of on the broods and the toilet has arrived.
Ultras can be decent in ZvT but its mainly as a suprise. Its not really valid to keep going once scouted. The problem with the ZvT matchup lategame is that terrans dont really have any unit that works well when the zerg transitions between broods and ultras anymore. The ghost filled that role, maybe to well against BLs but still, it filled the role. Terran can still beat zerg superlategame definatly but its hard, harder then it is for the zerg (I play Z and T so this is from both perspectives...although its just my opinion)
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On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote:
Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively.
What parts of the Protoss arsenal remain unexplored, in your opinion?
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On March 18 2012 18:36 aicaramba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:16 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 00:45 aicaramba wrote:On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest
just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control?
Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many.
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even tho this is the first time in forever that P has had a winning percentage verse T it is still imba ok.
and before you go "but Stephano claims P is super under powered vs Z" he doesnt understand balance, what would the best foreign zerg know about the balance of the game! nothing. and even if he did he is clearly bias to P.
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On March 19 2012 01:19 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 18:36 aicaramba wrote:On March 18 2012 15:16 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 00:45 aicaramba wrote:On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest
just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control? Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many.
Just to be clear. Im not stating terran is the strongest race. I actually think its pretty balanced right now.
The top korean terrans are being most consistant and in most numbers. But I have yet to see any good explanation that the terrans dominating is due to better players rather then being due to the race they play.
Your statement can be used to proof terran is a stronger race just as easily/poorly as stating they are better players.
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Nearly 50% Protoss in EU-GM says everything.
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protoss obviously no question about it
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On March 19 2012 03:47 aicaramba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 01:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 18:36 aicaramba wrote:On March 18 2012 15:16 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 00:45 aicaramba wrote:On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest
just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control? Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many. Just to be clear. Im not stating terran is the strongest race. I actually think its pretty balanced right now. The top korean terrans are being most consistant and in most numbers. But I have yet to see any good explanation that the terrans dominating is due to better players rather then being due to the race they play. Your statement can be used to proof terran is a stronger race just as easily/poorly as stating they are better players.
It's not a statistical explanation, it's a conclusion you come to by watching the games and playing at a high level...
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Protoss, simply becauase Map pools are getting bigger and bigger which benefits protoss the most since
1) Warp-ins means distance doesn't affect Protoss, whereas it makes the other races reinforce slower
2) Protoss are strongest in late-game, bigger maps = harder to rush = longer games
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On March 19 2012 05:26 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:47 aicaramba wrote:On March 19 2012 01:19 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 18:36 aicaramba wrote:On March 18 2012 15:16 Pokebunny wrote:On March 18 2012 00:45 aicaramba wrote:On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest
just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control? Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many. Just to be clear. Im not stating terran is the strongest race. I actually think its pretty balanced right now. The top korean terrans are being most consistant and in most numbers. But I have yet to see any good explanation that the terrans dominating is due to better players rather then being due to the race they play. Your statement can be used to proof terran is a stronger race just as easily/poorly as stating they are better players. It's not a statistical explanation, it's a conclusion you come to by watching the games and playing at a high level...
Thats actually the best explanation I can think of, but it just doesnt convince me 100%. However you word counts a lot more then mine 
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30 % 32 % 38%
Poll confirms, Game is balanced
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In my experience, Zerg is the strongest race, followed by Protoss and then Terran.
I only remain Terran because of my Terran pride, even as I have hit top 3 master with both of the other races. If we get nerfed again though, I will switch permanently as I know I can do as well as or better with another race.
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It would be interesting to poll the top 300 players on each server in regards to balance. Or a sample of 100 of each race from the top 500 players on each server. Sure, there is obviously going to be bias, but an anonymous poll with that many participants might lend itself to a more useful sample.
Because let's face it, what's overpowered in one league is certainly not overpowered in another, it may just require micro or apm that someone in the lower league may not possess.
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Because let's face it, what's overpowered in one league is certainly not overpowered in another, it may just require micro or apm that someone in the lower league may not possess.
However, it can't be that only the 5 top korean can play terran and the rest of the world has to go with zerg and toss. Not even Kas or Beastyqt have an answer against toss at the moment. All weekly EU tournaments are dominated by protoss. In EU-GM terran has dropped down under 25% while 45% are protoss player and if you look at the leagues below GM its getting much more worse. In low master and high diamond terran is nearly not existent anymore.
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Protoss. There was no huge metagame shift or massive innovation, this map pool just really favors protoss.
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I dont think there's a strongest race, each matchup is different, we should look at it from this perspective. TvZ is balanced, TvP seems to get better and better then there's PvZ which is imo pretty fragile...(mutas and broods are good) Lets be honest, I dont know alot of P who can win late game agaisnt Z (w/o lucky archon toilette)
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I posted it in the "where did all of the terrans go" thread, but what do people think about nerfing colossi base damage? It seems like the unit isn't all that relevant now in pvz. In pvt, the problem doesn't seem to be storm/archons or colossus tech individually, but how hard it is to counter a protoss who gets both. Pvp midgame has also long been quite stale as a result of colossi tech dominating everything.
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LOL @ people.. :/
The races are all REALLY even.
Let me summarize 99% of the posts here:
Protoss is imba PvT:
- Protoss has storm. All you need to to place a couple storms and it's an auto-win.
- Protoss requires NO micro, just a-move and ff/storm. Terran requires tons more work to be as effective.
Protoss is imba PvZ:
- Protoss has ff
- immortal all-in imba
- Blink stalker invincible
- only way protoss loses is because he's bad
Let's start with zerg. Zergs, for a LONG time, have been playing the exact same way against protoss. Every zerg needs to watch stephano. Being a Protoss player, I would just insta-gg against stephano simply because I can not figure out how to beat his playstyle. Stephano says that Zerg is very, very favored ZvP. Protoss has very little deviation of openings. Protoss has the WEAKEST early game. Don't even argue, it's fact, that's how the race was designed. Stephano get's like, 4 bases REALLY quickly. He says that protoss simply can't stop him, and, if you watch his stream, he proves it. Zerg players need to learn to INNOVATE instead of trying to win with pure brute force, which is like 99% of zergs (especially pros, the ones we get inspiration from).
PvT:
Terran has so many options. Their units, while costing very little, are so very cost-effective. Terran as a race is so flexible and super hard to predict. Protoss is the most linear race, which is why it's the easiest to learn. It's also the easiest to predict.
On the actual topic:
I think all the races are really, really even. However, if I HAD to pick a race that had a slight advantage, I would pick Zerg. Stephano is showing everyone that no one knows how to actually play zerg properly. Watching him scares me.
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yes please nerf collossus! this is coming from a long time protoss.
I hate playing with them but feel i kind of have to sometimes. the problem with protoss is that gateway units just plain suck (cost efficiency).
That means toss AOE has to be powerful just to compete. I wish they would buff gateway units, nerf AOE and warpgate tech.
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EPT
