EPTWhich race is the strongest right now?
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MonsterBeast
Canada193 Posts
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Kola
United States3 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Maybe the one even Korean pros currently complain about | ||
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SolarJto
United States260 Posts
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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disgruntled187
8 Posts
1. Terran 2. Toss 3 Zerg. Seems like a fair reflection of the current balance argument. | ||
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:21 disgruntled187 wrote: look at the breakdown of Code S next season, 1. Terran 2. Toss 3 Zerg. Seems like a fair reflection of the current balance argument. you should definatly be a statistics professor! | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
people are so pathetic. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
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Xenomorph
United States137 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:21 disgruntled187 wrote: look at the breakdown of Code S next season, 1. Terran 2. Toss 3 Zerg. Seems like a fair reflection of the current balance argument. I would agree with this, but only at the pro level. For me (as a protoss) zerg are still very strong in NA diamond. Though I will admit that in korea there is a large bump from protoss win rates. | ||
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MildSeven
Canada311 Posts
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scarper65
1560 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. This sums up my thoughts exactly. | ||
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PandaMonk
United States300 Posts
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
T.T | ||
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jordan dallas padget
United States1 Post
T.T | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
 I've always felt Protoss is the most imba. When it is played perfectly it seems no race can efficiently counter it. Watching some of the games in code A, S where the P player plays flawlessly just makes me scratch my noggin wondering how it could possibly be beaten, especially with the rather early double chrono boosted upgrades that have been so popular as of late. I think when played almost perfectly Terran is not close behind them however. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:46 FlamingTurd wrote: Nice to actually have a thread where we can talk about balance I've always felt Protoss is the most imba. When it is played perfectly it seems no race can efficiently counter it. Watching some of the games in code A, S where the P player plays flawlessly just makes me scratch my noggin wondering how it could possibly be beaten, especially with the rather early double chrono boosted upgrades that have been so popular as of late. I think when played almost perfectly Terran is not close behind them however. Terran has to micro a lot more, and more perfecty when engaging Protoss or your whole army gets stormed a couple of times and you get absolutely destroyed. And even if you engage and micro well, Protoss just warps in a ton of units. Protoss is just dumb right now. | ||
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Danger Boy
United States47 Posts
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ForgeLife
United States6 Posts
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ChairManMao467
United States35 Posts
For PvT the matchup is actually quite stale imo. Build colossus, transition into chargelot HT and get storm based on number of bases. You mess up micro=you lose. You micro decently=you win. | ||
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Coz
Denmark7 Posts
P>Z (mommaship) Z>T (snipenerf) T>P (Emp) | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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Alethios
New Zealand2765 Posts
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kf4Yk.png) | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
Anyone who votes in this poll will be banned! Don't fall for it! >_> | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:56 ForgeLife wrote: protoss is SUPER weak in the early game. other than that they are the strongest, but honestly you can't really make a statement of which race is the strongest or not. it is almost perfectly balanced at this point. Yes I agree with you. And also, why not put a link to the most recent balance statistics report ? Toss units are in average the strongest on a per unit basis and I feel like it makes people inconsciously feel the protoss race is too strong. Players feelings about balance and the actual balance are quite different things imo. Reading TL threads has convinced me there is a pretty large majority of terrans here. So in addition to this poll, I think "what race do you play ?" would be quite useful too... | ||
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ElMacedonian
United States79 Posts
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:05 ChairManMao467 wrote: For PvT the matchup is actually quite stale imo. Build colossus, transition into chargelot HT and get storm based on number of bases. You mess up micro=you lose. You micro decently=you win. I really agree with this. Obviously micro is always important, but in the case of protoss because of the units cost, it's always very hard to recover from a micro miss on the battle field, harder than for the other races imo. Anyway I think the game is balanced, every race has strong and weak points. It would be interesting to do this poll with random players only. | ||
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power-overwhelming
Canada306 Posts
Protoss IS STILL BLAND. One dimensional. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:43 ElMacedonian wrote: it bother anyone else how there is no option in the poll for game is fairly balanced? o.O I didn't even notice but you're right ! | ||
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Glowinglight
United States76 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:50 power-overwhelming wrote: This is very misleading. 1/1/1 still beats any Protoss any day. The reason why GSL is losing to Protosses is because for majority of 2011 it was all tvtvtvzvzvtvt. Now that a few Protosses got in, these Terrans and Zergs haven't figured out how to deal with them and are losing. Nothing really changed as far as balance goes. Terran is still the MOST COMPLETE race with the best defense and offense. Zerg still has the easiest macro less use of micro. Protoss IS STILL BLAND. One dimensional. Games exist out side of the GSL though. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Grohg
United States243 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i hope everyone realize this poll is not to be taken serious ^^ but seeing how there is no neutral option to take in the poll i guess that just means this was made for fun. anyway, i voted for protoss :-) On March 14 2012 13:50 power-overwhelming wrote: This is very misleading. 1/1/1 still beats any Protoss any day. The reason why GSL is losing to Protosses is because for majority of 2011 it was all tvtvtvzvzvtvt. Now that a few Protosses got in, these Terrans and Zergs haven't figured out how to deal with them and are losing. Nothing really changed as far as balance goes. Terran is still the MOST COMPLETE race with the best defense and offense. Zerg still has the easiest macro less use of micro. Protoss IS STILL BLAND. One dimensional. lolol thank you for that post. very amusing | ||
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peekn
United States1152 Posts
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:50 power-overwhelming wrote: Zerg still has the easiest macro less use of micro. Protoss IS STILL BLAND. One dimensional. lol ok, real useful analysis there. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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Panzerfaust7
United States38 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On March 14 2012 14:06 MorroW wrote: rofl why would you make a poll like this its pretty ridiculous imo :/ only brings forward hatred and rage of people thats only arguments they have to back it up is their opinion and personal experience i hope everyone realize this poll is not to be taken serious ^^ but seeing how there is no neutral option to take in the poll i guess that just means this was made for fun. anyway, i voted for protoss :-) lolol thank you for that post. very amusing Yep, maybe to concentrate all balance whining and rage posts here so they don't polute others threads Not a bad idea imo ! | ||
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anguyenm
United States47 Posts
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iliektocreep
5 Posts
Anyways, I voted terran, and I main both zerg and terran (almost random I guess). Terran because they have the best risk/reward situations or tools imo, but only by a slight margin I would say. The recent or still short Protoss success is no reason for calling toss imba, especially when they were below terran/zerg by a bit for a while (in pro scenes, most notably, the GSL). The rise of toss maybe be likened to The Legend of the Fall! | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
There should always be the option that all races are about as equally strong right now.I went through the last 10 big events in the TL tracker and looked up the 1-4 place finishers, and I swear, I can't remember time when the picture is so ridiculously well balanced across all races. In almost every event top 4 has all 3 races represented, and they constantly rotate which race wins the events or takes 2nd, so doesn't seem there's any prevalence. Almost makes me sad that HotS is knocking on the door, because now - right now - seems the best time for SC2: WoL. I wish this period would last longer and we would enjoy tons of events with very decently even races. | ||
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Divination
United States139 Posts
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Noyect
Sweden129 Posts
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ShakaZu.Sc2
United States131 Posts
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d00p
711 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. No one said anything about imba. The poll asked which race is the strongest atm. And peolpe reconed it's toss. Why cry about it and think everyone else is wrong? | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
Toss gets "reversed" production, that means that they get the units first and then have the cooldown (production time) afterwards, This plays a significant role lategame after huge engagements. (like 200/200) Zerg has production "banks" which enables them to create up to 4-5 production cycles at once. Zergs production mechanic doesnt seem to cause too many problems for terran tho. | ||
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SC_Smoker
Austria16 Posts
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
no doubt about that. | ||
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-shArk-
Germany150 Posts
I think all the guys crying about imbalance are just bad and dont know how to handle some situations. You can see it at the high level that all races are balanced. So I also miss the "no strongest race" button in the poll ;( | ||
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AllSensePassed
Great Britain1 Post
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iEatWoofers
Switzerland108 Posts
But seriously... if you make a poll like this, an option like "i think it's pretty much balanced" would be nice. Since we have MLG Winterarena for the Terrans, GSL for the Zergs and IEM for Protoss. I think that's about the most even tournament results in a long time. Even the GSL Up/Down matches are/were even 2 Z, 2 P, 2 T. What more can you ask for? Funny btw how everyone still thinks in Deathball vs. Deathball mentality. "I can't just go MMM with some ghosts and win anymore *crycry*" or "our deathball consisting out of cheaper units doesn't win against the one made of more expensive ones! unfair!" Well guess what, running head on into a protoss army is generally a very very bad idea.So stop doing it. | ||
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Phays
Sweden162 Posts
no but srsly, why do you people vote T/Z? | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On March 14 2012 17:17 Chr15t wrote: Terran is only weak because of their production method. Toss gets "reversed" production, that means that they get the units first and then have the cooldown (production time) afterwards, This plays a significant role lategame after huge engagements. (like 200/200) Zerg has production "banks" which enables them to create up to 4-5 production cycles at once. Zergs production mechanic doesnt seem to cause too many problems for terran tho. Also, Toss can warp in as many units as they have warpgates AT THE SAME LOCATION. Zerg reinforcements have to travel all over the map from respective hatches. A moot point, but an important one. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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yourmydinner
Netherlands19 Posts
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Anyone can die to a timing attack if they're trying to macro, I wouldn't really factor in silly all-ins that happen in pvz/pvt. I've played zerg since beta though, i've suffered enough proxy-2rax-bunker rushes to have no pity for protoss who die while expanding with thin defenses. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On March 14 2012 19:05 darkscream wrote: Voted protoss just because the only way to beat a protoss army is a good engagement on favourable terrain, but the protoss army modifies the terrain and dictates the terms of engagement. Anyone can die to a timing attack if they're trying to macro, I wouldn't really factor in silly all-ins that happen in pvz/pvt. I've played zerg since beta though, i've suffered enough proxy-2rax-bunker rushes to have no pity for protoss who die while expanding with thin defenses. I like the way you stated your first paragraph | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:34 PandaMonk wrote: Look at win rates in korea. Protoss>all. Quarter finals this GSL, 1/2 protoss. Protoss seems to be the strongest but that doesn't mean they are OP. Gogo zerg! That argument just doesn't work. One season we had 6/8 Terran players in the quarterfinals. So... terran was super dominant. Even more so than P today. How much did blizzard nerf them? They only changed the ghost and now protoss is too strong? That doesn't make sence. Watch Stephano or any clearthinking zerg against a protoss. It aint pretty... But yeah... | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On March 14 2012 19:05 darkscream wrote: Voted protoss just because the only way to beat a protoss army is a good engagement on favourable terrain, but the protoss army modifies the terrain and dictates the terms of engagement. Anyone can die to a timing attack if they're trying to macro, I wouldn't really factor in silly all-ins that happen in pvz/pvt. I've played zerg since beta though, i've suffered enough proxy-2rax-bunker rushes to have no pity for protoss who die while expanding with thin defenses. I see your point... But really? As a zerg player you're complaining about protoss being able to alter your micro abilities? Really? Reeeally? Have you ever heard about fungals? Having pre-split and flanks ready will just drain the sentry energy - or give you an amazing engagement. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
But it's still really close and map dependent. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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MAmchlee
Australia6 Posts
protoss: vote terran/ zerg zerg: vote terran/ toss terran vote toss therefore....................toss/terran will get the most votes~ but there are more terran players so yep^ | ||
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Gihi
384 Posts
We have adjusted, and now people cry once more. Even terrans whining, I just don't get that while half GSL is terran. It's not because YOUR micro/macro is poor that another race is OP. This poll is not about what class cheeses best in bronze league. I personally think toss is wayyyy too weak early game, terran can just mm, zerg kan roach ling but we have to get robo units to even stand a slight chance. Our fast expands are fragile as well, since zealots have no chance against well microd barracks units, or roach pushes. But late game, we are certainly viable. People cry about death balls but what about playing against a zerg with 15 brood lords and infestors/roaches for the rest of his army supply? They are just as deadly. As well is a 3/3 bioball with siege support if everything is spread well and u target fire. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:15 SolarXPn wrote: Why would you vote terran... Makes no sense :/ Look at aggregate winrates for the past year in Korea as well as the rest of the world. The raw statistics should make some sense to you. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
dont they spend most of their time banning people or trying to discourage people from balnce whining? anyone saying storm is too good gtfo having EMP and Snipe both with longer ranges then storm mean theoretically storm shouldnt be much of an issue. One storm cant change the game as much as one EMP can | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
The recent TL poll also showed that the race distribution on this site isn't as scattered that people may believe, it's very close so I wouldn't say there is much bias. Just like Idra says ZvP comes down to forcefields. The two base immortal heavy sentry push is a perfect example to this you can lose even though you're maxed with roach/hydra, aslong as there are good forcefields on the ground you can't really do much. EDIT: Though I feel to some extent that terran could be the strongest. They make T1 units the entire game with a T3 support unit which are not combat units but medivacs. In ZvT you need tier 3 (ultras, broodlords, infestors) to counter a mostly T1 army with T2 support (marine, tank) which is fundamentally flawed since it is also paired with that zerg techs slowest and terran the fastest. | ||
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Cosmos
Belgium1077 Posts
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Phony
Russian Federation24 Posts
This "op race" election is definitly rigged! | ||
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
- Forcefields (Sentry) - Vortex (Mothership) - Auto-attack (Phoenix) And I'm not even talking of combinations of abilities that are very powerfull for Protoss : - Archon toilet (most of the time a game changer) - Forcfield behind your units + Storms (High Templar) - (Push with Sentrys forcefielding the ramp to your main base) Other races have some good abilities too, but generally I feel that they are easier to "dodge" or mitigate (besides juking a bit to make the Protoss fail his first forcefields, which really doesn't matter in late game). For example : "Fungal Growth is awesome for Zergs but in big battles you nearly have to sacrifice your Infestor everytime you want to get in range (Colossi, Storm, Siege Tanks ...etc.)". In my opinion spells like Fungal, Vortex, Phoenix auto-attack and Forcefields should be redesigned to make them reflect the two players's skill more. Just my two cents here. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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babybell
776 Posts
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Th30nE
United States44 Posts
On March 14 2012 14:06 MorroW wrote: rofl why would you make a poll like this its pretty ridiculous imo :/ only brings forward hatred and rage of people thats only arguments they have to back it up is their opinion and personal experience i hope everyone realize this poll is not to be taken serious ^^ but seeing how there is no neutral option to take in the poll i guess that just means this was made for fun. anyway, i voted for protoss :-) lolol thank you for that post. very amusing trolling or just insanely mis-informed? | ||
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a5mod
France61 Posts
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Hulavuta
United States1252 Posts
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Reasonable
Ukraine1432 Posts
Balance has been thrown off by the recent patch IMO. Protoss newbies from bronze to low masters were complaining about how mutas are oped and now there is only one viable strategy against protoss - surviving until brood lords. It doesn't matter when one race is easier to play or easier to win. When you have only one viable strategy for a certain match up - that is crap. | ||
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InfusedTT.DaZe
Romania693 Posts
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
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speknek
758 Posts
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Luisa_2
Germany200 Posts
2. i can see points where protoss may considered the "best race" but i think ZvP is even in Masters League Z-favored (slightly i admit that) cause once zerg hits infestor broodlord spines its almost unbeatable for Toss. Of course there's the mothership and archon toilet n stuff, but this is hard to pull of cause corrupter take toss air forces down immediatly. And to prevent zerg hitting this point u have to sum kind of 2 base all in, cause evry zerg can hold 1 base all in these days. Other way round i think that PvT goes to P (slightly aswell) cause once u hit 3armor chargelots its super hard for terran to counter its cause u have to micro ur ass off and toss just a klicks with chargelots and microes their AOE units and on top of that zlots can be replaced super fast otherwise to terran units. In TvZ i see Terran slightly ahead but i don't have to much indepth knowledge about this MU cause i dont have to play it. Summing up: Z>P>T>Z imo Pro-Scene: Balanced | ||
uThermal
Netherlands165 Posts
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sevia
United States954 Posts
The races are pretty balanced at the highest levels right now, so people will just vote for whatever they've been struggling against on ladder recently. Play random and you'll see, a protoss will bitch about insane zerg OP, then next game you roll PvZ and a zerg bitches about insane protoss OP. I voted terran because they've never really been the weakest \o/ | ||
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
http://imgur.com/a/1aAfu Terran has dominated two years, now the situation is better. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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CaEsaR_89
United Kingdom3 Posts
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DeaDoXFighting
Canada115 Posts
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spanky37x2
United States1 Post
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supsun
United Kingdom343 Posts
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partysnatcher
156 Posts
Terran hasn't had one of those yet. Of course it's safe to assume that when Terrans "low period" comes, it will last for a few months and T will come out stronger than before. Terran may stand more weak in the metagame right now, but in the long run, they have the most options and will soon be undisputed metagame kings again. Despite a seeming complexity in Terran matchups, Terran is still the least developed of the races. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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scrappycoco82
2 Posts
I am playing random in mid diamond on eu. So in 99.9% of my loses its obvisously my fault that i lost. But some matchups just feel not right sometimes. For me its TvP and ZvT where i can lose the game in a split second although i was way ahead. | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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Bubbas
Sweden76 Posts
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
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vitruvia
Canada235 Posts
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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Vallros
Denmark64 Posts
 and why isn't there "balanced" option? | ||
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LF9
United States537 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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thingULTRA
United States48 Posts
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SeinGalton
South Africa387 Posts
I feel the same way when I play TvP (I offrace as both Terran and Protoss from time to time), but to a far lesser extent. I don't think any race is necessarily stronger than another (and I don't think it's reliably measurable) but I do think that with the current metagame, Protoss has a good deal of depth and empowers various play styles that require very different reactions from both Terran and Zerg. Once Terrans and Zergs get the hang of it though, Protoss will seem less powerful and become more predictable. | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. This... Weirdly enough Protoss seems to be unexplored, players limit themselves in few timings and compositions per match up, no multi speedprism late game (fast drop who can warp in enemy's base + doesnt cost any gas? are you kidding me? why this isnt used late game, ever? 2 speedprisms well controlled vs a 4 / 5 base opponent is crazy good). And protoss are already starting to dominate the scene, when frankly, there is much fewer talented players at the highest level in protoss than terran or zerg... I'm sorry but MC has never, EVER been on the consistency level of an MVP, Nestea, DRG, even Leenock or Jjakji... You might be fan of the guy and his playstyle, but he just is behind those guys, we dont have a huge protoss champion emerging yet, and when it will, if patchs arent used well, lets say we're going to see a protoss MVP era... I really dont get how lowering the upgrades costs made any sense, since it's already too effective on many toss units, I actually never seen a protoss go for really fast 3 3 with 2 perma chronoboosted forges, but the timing would be insanely early, i'm not saying it is valid, i'm saying it's broke that you can do that, cutting by ~40% (including off chronos) upgrades or really important units should be balanced by adding 20 seconds to upgrades, fast +1 are way too effective vsZ for example, it forces an uneffective trade whatever happens... Oh and by the way, I played protoss for 6 months, I started as toss on SC2, it made me quit sc2 because I frankly had no fun playing the race, and was ashamed of seing an incredible multitask from my opponent, and still crushing him with frankly not that much skill. So yeah, you can think that i'm biased or whatever, but frankly I'm not, but sc2 is a really complex game, so none of us can really be sure of what the solutions, balance states are atm | ||
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Love and Justice
United States87 Posts
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Gorinn
Bulgaria21 Posts
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Love and Justice
United States87 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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RunnerMeep
United States79 Posts
MC wins IEM and people QQ.... Amazing | ||
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TheHansBecker
United States117 Posts
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oneill12
Romania1222 Posts
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Sniper937
Canada23 Posts
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
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anoit7
Croatia11 Posts
give me a hydra and queen buff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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AnYvia
Bulgaria474 Posts
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stickyhands
187 Posts
On March 15 2012 03:19 INTOtheVOID wrote: Toss weakest early game? LOL. That would be zerg...easily... why dont you try to make units instead of drones? Im sorry but, i think that pool is a terrible idea, people will get mad in comments | ||
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nexus1
Germany13 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. this! I think its still T... lets see what 2012 will show | ||
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Love and Justice
United States87 Posts
On March 15 2012 03:23 anoit7 wrote: Toss so strong Terran OP to and Zerg are not strong at all give me a hydra and queen buff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also lurkers. | ||
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PixelNite
France1008 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/edb/ranking/prizes If we consider another anayisis in Korea, MC is the only one that won a GSL tournament, and he did it two times. Inca and Genius got 2 Silver Medals. Terran won 9 Gold Medal and 10 Silver, Zerg won 7 Gold Medal and 6 Silver, Toss won 2 and 2. NOW, 42% of players say protoss is the strongest race? Just because the last month Protoss go slightly over 50% winrate, ilike 51 o 52... | ||
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Sssoul
5 Posts
fungals are three times better then storms when you get hit by it u cant move, 10infestors can spawn so many infested terrans that buildings disappear, banes walking mines that combine great with fungals, broodlords spawinming even more units that dont require energy or money, queens to heal all the vitals units and the macro in eraly game with three hatches and injects you can make so much units that its crazy but you have to know how to use them edit: forgot to add the cheapest unit zergling that comes in 2 Toss user here | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:49 samurai80 wrote: I really agree with this. Obviously micro is always important, but in the case of protoss because of the units cost, it's always very hard to recover from a micro miss on the battle field, harder than for the other races imo. Anyway I think the game is balanced, every race has strong and weak points. It would be interesting to do this poll with random players only. well, as a mostly randomplayer Id still chose protoss. But I do think that the closer we come to perfect play the more it start getting to terran again, atleast in the TvP MU. A PERFECTLY (its not likely but still) microed terran army in a late game engagement beats a toss army. The big difference is how much you need to put in regarding unit management. As terran you need to work alot harder controlling your army endgame then toss and there is where the problem lies imo. Its the same in say PvZ but for toss in some scenarios. If a toss attacks with chargelots on 3 places the terran needs to micro all 3 places to be even close to effecient the toss does not. if a zerg attacks a toss at 3 places with roaches against stalker/sentry the toss needs to FF/blink on all three to be efficient the zerg does not, although the zerg can be more effecient with some micro but in the TvP example the toss more or less cannot micro. As I see it the game is balanced in the way that every race have huge strongpoints during the game but it is not balanced in sense of every races superlategame being balanced. there toss wins in all MUs. Before the mammaship PvZ zerg is stronger though but as soon as vortex energy is up toss is and in PvT with both HTs and Collosi again, toss needs alot less control then the terran. Although as I said before, its only toss favored cause the Terrans cant press enough buttons to counter it. Superlategame PvT is alot of chargelots, collosi, HTs and archons wich is basically a-move and T. As terran its snipe/EMP + stutterstep + viking micro. So I wouldnt call toss Imba, I mainly think its to easy lategame and I really hope HoTS fixes this. And again, a race being somewhat OP lategame doesnt mean imbalance at all if they have several weakpoints during the game. Aslong as win% looks fine at the prolevel the game can be considered balanced and blizzard should be alot more careful in nerfing.. give the metagame a chance to adjust it. And we should never forget the impact maps have on balance! Its not all unitstats. I would like to see the game going more towards BW in the sense that it is not 2 big balls of death and more alot of small battles over the map. | ||
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On March 15 2012 03:40 PixelNite wrote: Overall, the game is balanced and in the several competitions since 2012, I think every race is well represented.Though, there's like a triangle between the races in late game right now, where P>T and Z>P nice triangle. :p you missed T>Z to complete it and thats not something I would agree upon after the ghost nerf. and ZvP I really would say toss beats zerg once mammaship is out. | ||
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BradenKuntz
Canada59 Posts
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khanan
47 Posts
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
In my own games (I play zerg) most of my games that I win against protoss are base races since I can never ever win in a straight up engaugement even if I harass and macro really well get fast upgrades everything that should win you games. It just seems like you need to be 10 times better than the protoss player to win. I find terran still a bit too strong with mech which is annoying like mass hellions just mean you cant go ling, tanks mean you cant go roach and like 4 or 5 thors are great against muta and the fact that they can turtle up to make sure of the fact that they counter you is even more frustrating. Id say about 1/5 games are mech but I don't think ive won against a terran player doing that in months. The last time I won was when I did mass roach drop in his main but most of the time you just lose all your drones to them derping up your ramp and killing all your drones even if you have a wall and 3 spines when you scout the mass hellions. | ||
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arecognizablename
United States7 Posts
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
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Dumbtruck
56 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:11 khanan wrote: Delete this poll before this gets out of hand. toss getting tense when polls aren't in his favor I'd say TvP is heavily imbalanced in toss' favor. For example toss micro just helps toss. Terran micro is do or die. TvZ is quite balanced, though the ghost nerf was too harsh. | ||
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:27 arecognizablename wrote: Even me, being out of the loop for three months, still voted toss What on earth do you mean, even you?.. If you have been out of the loop for so long, maybe it just proves that all these votes on polls come from ignorant people who just have a hard time against that race they are playing... if protoss really is as strong as everyone claims.. then PLAY IT.. and SEE FOR YOURSELF... i'm a toss player.. and yeah.. the protoss deathball is strong.. but THATS IT... all other "advantages" the protoss has is balanced out by the advantages of other races... Besides that, i think these opinions are all retarded.. let evidence speak for itself as you can see protoss is the LEAST OP race of them all.. Another hint, look to the right of your screen right now - TLPD: How many toss can you see? 2... the rest is terran and zerg on the top.. All you are probably diamond league or lower, and have no proper experience with the races in such detail as the pro's or top master/GM... therefore this poll/thread and the people in it (the ones who do not agree with me) are fucking retarded in their narrowminded brainheads... Now there is no option to choose NONE... but.. If i had to say, i'd go with either terran or zerg.. and if you're calling me biased than you are a lazy retard who dont bother reading my entire post.. CASE CLOSED | ||
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HoBb3
Sweden38 Posts
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incrysis
United States2 Posts
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Njbrownie
United States13 Posts
On March 14 2012 22:23 LunaSea wrote: I voted for Protoss because from the many tournaments and streams I watched recently, I think that they're a the race with the most unit abilities which can't be avoided with skill (what I mean is that if your in a donut forcefield you can be MMA or mister #100 Bronze player it doesn't change much) : - Forcefields (Sentry) - Vortex (Mothership) - Auto-attack (Phoenix) And I'm not even talking of combinations of abilities that are very powerfull for Protoss : - Archon toilet (most of the time a game changer) - Forcfield behind your units + Storms (High Templar) - (Push with Sentrys forcefielding the ramp to your main base) Other races have some good abilities too, but generally I feel that they are easier to "dodge" or mitigate (besides juking a bit to make the Protoss fail his first forcefields, which really doesn't matter in late game). For example : "Fungal Growth is awesome for Zergs but in big battles you nearly have to sacrifice your Infestor everytime you want to get in range (Colossi, Storm, Siege Tanks ...etc.)". In my opinion spells like Fungal, Vortex, Phoenix auto-attack and Forcefields should be redesigned to make them reflect the two players's skill more. Just my two cents here. I'll be happy to rebuttle: -FF's : Force sentry energy to be spent early and often = rendered useless no matter what race and too gas heavy to be rebuilt -Vortex: Mothership is SLOWW fall back and reposition many smaller groups of units in order to minimize toilet losses -Pheonix: c'mon really??? They are so freaking fragile that a slight micro misstep and their dead... you try doing that without auto-attack -High Templar: again splitting is key and hitting snipes as terran or a couple unit hit squads for templar outta place as zerg are both effective counters The only unit I could truly say is difficult to deal with is colossus and it kinda surprises me you didn't really mention them seeing as every race has to go out of their way tech wise to really counter them and the toss player can tech switch fairly easily while your left with useless supply (vikings expecially, corruptors not so much). I think a lot of players find the things you mentioned difficult because army splitting is not the metagame for toss although it SHOULD be. IF you attack head on into a maxed protoss, which you should be trading effectively in order to avoid maxed encounters, but say you let them get maxed and a-move into them with your less expensive maxed army... You should lose. The units are obviously stronger due to capital spent on them. Protoss is also a very ability-centric race and if you let them utilize abilities on a big ball of units you will undoubtedly get crushed, A protoss rarely ever splits his "deathball" so if you can attack from 5+ directions on favorable terrain and micro your groups of units out of AoE threats; with a good composition you should win. To sum it up, engagements from every side with smaller groups of units would be better against a protoss because your limiting the AoE threat of the race in general. Storms even if landed perfectly only have a damage potential of x amount of units instead of a moneystorm on a larger majority of your units leaving them severly weakened / dead. Same with vortex, if a toss is resorting to this he is thinking he probably cannot engage you straight up without both you and him trading armies, or worse just outright losing horribly. Split units to minimize damage potential of vortexs and you stand a better chance of winning an engagement and possibly the game. FF's you force them to spend on a "fake engagement" losing a few zerglings to do so is more than worth it. | ||
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h1t-m3
Canada11 Posts
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ReD-FooT
Denmark22 Posts
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AznBoy00
Canada166 Posts
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Jornada
United States223 Posts
zerg is very strong early game and so is terran personally i think protoss hardest race to use | ||
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jaminski
England84 Posts
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Samp
Canada783 Posts
On the other hand, if the player is mediocre, playing Protoss would be the best because its the easiest and it takes less from a protoss to beat a stronger player than him. Also the match ups involving protoss are really wierd now. So I voted terran being the strongest, but thats only if the player is good, protoss is the strongest even if the player is bad. | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
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Kwaa
Sweden91 Posts
Arguments like "Terran destroys Protoss early game" are simply silly. While it might be true at the lower leagues, Protoss has the ability to defend very easily early game and then go into the midgame/lategame where they obviously have the stronger units and/or abilities. Sure, DRG might be the strongest player - doesn't mean you should vote Zerg. Probably a lot of trolling going on there. | ||
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djdnt
Bulgaria10 Posts
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djdnt
Bulgaria10 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:50 Jornada wrote: People who hate on Protoss are usually the ones who lose against them because of their own mistakes. Blame toss IMBA when u lose... yea..... makes sense..... get over yourselves and learn how to get better. zerg is very strong early game and so is terran personally i think protoss hardest race to use this made me laugh )) | ||
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frozzz
Croatia118 Posts
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
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Adience
United States7 Posts
Lower leagues I give up on caring about. | ||
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Kompicek
Czech Republic245 Posts
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:24 Greenei wrote: you should definatly be a statistics professor! haha for sure, I got alot out of that. | ||
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:30 scarper65 wrote: I'm a terran player, and I voted terran cause I feel like it is way to easy to win games even in master league and the only reasons I love is cause I fucked up, not because terran is a "weaker" race than any of the others. In fact, my weakest matchup is tvt because I have to play against another terran and they are always really strong. The only reason to love it because you fuck up ): | ||
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kyz
Canada2 Posts
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:05 Coz wrote: My thoughts (lategame) P>Z (mommaship) Z>T (snipenerf) T>P (Emp) I think this is completely wrong for Z>T.... Snipe was just ONE of the OP ways terran could deal with brood lords. Here's a couple Tank Marine Medivac + Viking Mass drop (almost always wins) Ghost EMP (w/o infestors brood lords suck butt) Mass ghost snipe STILL works, it's just worse I think that statement wasn't right at all. | ||
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CaF-Lunar
Germany126 Posts
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On March 14 2012 19:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I don't get how anyone who plays Zerg ever loses. WTF! Wanna play a PvZ (me protoss, protoss ez, diamond protoss, 20 games, masters zerg, 3000 wins)You little..... AHHHHH | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On March 15 2012 06:42 CaF-Lunar wrote: I am zerg, and i don´t know how to beat the protoss-race. Same bro. Only thing that has ever worked is roach ling and mutas (for me) | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On March 14 2012 18:59 yourmydinner wrote: I think everything is pretty balanced, except Mules. But nobody is using them correctly. A mule based economy late game, can give terran 50 army supply more. Which on big maps is really strong. This is done by i think all the terran pros... | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:36 Dumbtruck wrote: toss getting tense when polls aren't in his favor I'd say TvP is heavily imbalanced in toss' favor. For example toss micro just helps toss. Terran micro is do or die. TvZ is quite balanced, though the ghost nerf was too harsh. Stop complaining about TvZ at least, you have vikings and mass drop already. Ghosts were just one way you can deal with them, and they still work en mass, + you can just EMP the infestors and then rape the zerg. On top of that you have the imba nukes | ||
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klops
United States674 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. because iem was the only starcraft being played in the past 6 months do you ladder? | ||
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Befree
695 Posts
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GoSuChicken
Germany1726 Posts
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OmnIMinD
Netherlands9 Posts
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On March 15 2012 06:40 NOOBALOPSE wrote: I think this is completely wrong for Z>T.... Snipe was just ONE of the OP ways terran could deal with brood lords. Here's a couple Tank Marine Medivac + Viking Mass drop (almost always wins) Ghost EMP (w/o infestors brood lords suck butt) Mass ghost snipe STILL works, it's just worse I think that statement wasn't right at all. Those things are far from being overpowered. It's so frustrating having people come in these threads and complain about things that can be easily dealt with. EMPS are not strong against broodlord heavy compositions at all (infestors are chilling in the back so when you try to emp your ghosts will get killed by broodlords without doing anything). Dealing with drops takes practice but it can be done and when you are able to do it efficiently you are in very good position to win the game because the terran either loses too much army value with his drops or is behind in upgrades/economy. Marine Tank Medivac Viking is not powerful by itself in the lategame. If you are still complaining about ghost snipe all hope is lost for you being a good player ever. | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
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Sm1Le
United States179 Posts
Let me break it down to you forever diamonds. terran ---> Now that the ghost has been crzy nerfed, to where no one gets it in tvz. (Probably more nerfs to come, since blizzard loves the terran race). Terran has the weakest late game now. Terrans win games, by forcing mistakes. Dropping/playing aggressive/etc. Protoss ---> You simply just sit there and make a deathball. Literally, apm is completely irrelevant with protoss. Zerg --> If a zerg knows every single trick in the book and know how to properly react to them. They will be fine, the ability of their map control, and to expand everywhere is really good. If they know a 200 food toss army is coming, they just make mass infestor/brood, and their deathball simply beats the toss. Zerg players will argue (Oh no, mothership archon pretty good). Good zerg players don't keep their units clumped up into a ball. Also another reason why zerg is good, is because their all-ins are never considered "ALL-INS" unless they 6 pool or drone rush. A zerg can make only roaches and lings, and still have a bank of 300 minerals because their units are so cheap. They simply take a 3rd behind their "ALL-IN" and power drone really freaking hard while they "ALL-IN". A zerg player also has an option of base racing if they don't want to engage an army. Lings pretty fast. and to whoever gets their balance ideas from the GSL need to stop. Balance in a game revolves around the gameplay throughout the globe, not in one country. Globally zerg win the most tournaments. Terran win the most tournaments in Korea, simply because of their team. Terran is heavily revolved around build orders, and teammates help make build orders in tournaments vs certain opponents. Once all of the tricks are out of the bag, I believe terran will not be the top winning race in Korea. Amen~ | ||
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macncheezeplz
United States93 Posts
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MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. Not that I'm justifying using tournament results for balance discussions but the question was strongest RIGHT NOW, as in protoss winning tourney or getting to finals is relevant | ||
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MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On March 15 2012 06:40 NOOBALOPSE wrote: I think this is completely wrong for Z>T.... Snipe was just ONE of the OP ways terran could deal with brood lords. Here's a couple Tank Marine Medivac + Viking Mass drop (almost always wins) Ghost EMP (w/o infestors brood lords suck butt) Mass ghost snipe STILL works, it's just worse I think that statement wasn't right at all. Omg mass drop always wins? I'm going to do that right now. Wait a sec, not every terran in the world is MMA and has 300 apm... | ||
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QNdie
Poland210 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
I think if we ended up playing WoL forever, Zerg would emerge as the strongest race. | ||
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Ninfofan
Mexico18 Posts
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:42 samurai80 wrote: Yes I agree with you. And also, why not put a link to the most recent balance statistics report ? Toss units are in average the strongest on a per unit basis and I feel like it makes people inconsciously feel the protoss race is too strong. Players feelings about balance and the actual balance are quite different things imo. Reading TL threads has convinced me there is a pretty large majority of terrans here. So in addition to this poll, I think "what race do you play ?" would be quite useful too... Yeah I agree poll your race before you answer question. Although I am unbiased towards balance | ||
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
XD | ||
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System42
172 Posts
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Skoop
United States214 Posts
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horsebanger
141 Posts
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
This just shows right now the general playing population are finally starting to lose maybe 4/10 games against protoss where they would normally lose only 2 or 3 games out of 10. TvP and ZvP are changing but at same skill they're not favored for protoss right now because zerg and terran have more options and more ways to outplay the protoss (just like tvp in BW). While TvZ has stayed the same for a long long time with terran getting a somewhat sizeable ghost nerf recently (probably accounting for 80% of the players that voted Zerg being the best race. | ||
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NotTheMonker
United States131 Posts
I think Terran has been strong for a while in Brood War, but Protoss seems the best right now in SC2. | ||
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SaGa-
United States50 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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ulan-bat
China403 Posts
On March 15 2012 08:36 darkness wrote: Assuming perfection is achieved, I think Terran has no limits due to micro. That and floating buildings. Voted protoss though because the poll is about right now and how you feel. | ||
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zelevin
United States253 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:24 Greenei wrote: you should definatly be a statistics professor! One of the best comments ever. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. lol what? Protoss always used all their units, same with Zerg, its Terran who use same compostions since beta... | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
EDIT: On March 15 2012 07:09 OmnIMinD wrote: Strongest race : the race most people just lost to. Wiser words never spoken^^ And my last loss was to a Terran player, so they must be the strongest! | ||
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jkang
United States404 Posts
Protoss's macro is just warp in units, chrono buildings such as robo and forge, and make probes. Other two races aren't that much harder imo, but Protoss is probably the easiest. Zerg doesn't need the best micro to win a game. Muta micro isn't too different than Phoenix micro (which actually requires more time micro'ing cuz of lift), and everything else is just 1-A. In fact, you don't even need to micro after fungaling. Terran: Lost scv's? mules. Natural threatened? lift CC. Lost depots or forgot to make them? drop with orbital. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Zerg seems about right as of now, though ZvP sucks. Protoss is still a terrible race, but not OP. | ||
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NMxSardines
77 Posts
Based from what I know, I think that no race has been horribly overpowered in a very long time(if at all). There have been some small hitches - like Zealot build time or Sniper Round damage, but nothing that can be abused so to call it 'overpowered.' | ||
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dCc
Canada86 Posts
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ulan-bat
China403 Posts
Games from the international TLPD only Terran 50.8% (196-190) Zerg 50.7% (243-236) Protoss 48.4% (200-213) TvZ: Terran 49.6% (112-114) Zerg 50.4% (114-112) TvP: Terran 52.5% (84-76) Protoss 47.5% (76-84) PvZ: Protoss 49.0% (124-129) Zerg 51.0% (129-124) Games from the korean TLPD only spoilered because of lack of games + Show Spoiler + Terran 38.6% (17-27) Zerg 63.8% (30-17) Protoss 46.9% (23-26) TvZ: Terran 28.6% (6-15) Zerg 71.4% (15-6) TvP: Terran 47.8% (11-12) Protoss 52.2% (12-11) PvZ: Protoss 57.7% (15-11) Zerg 42.3% (11-15) Refer to my signature | ||
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YouMake
United States262 Posts
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
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nobuild
United States39 Posts
On March 15 2012 10:35 MichaelDonovan wrote: I think this poll is a little messed up. Redo it with a better title which is specific about whether we are talking BW or SC2 please. Otherwise this poll means very little. hahahaha bw.... actually though he has a good point. but upon results of the quiz... well no one thinks P is op in BW. | ||
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EsMuyVien
United States408 Posts
P > Z P > T So probably Protoss. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
EDIT: with 3 of the top 5 players being zerg and the top player in the world being zerg i still guess its zerg. | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Protoss is easy in the late-game, but harder in the early game because of the insane amount of things Terran can do. The reason for this is, Terran can do things like hide their second supply depot when they're going 1-1-1 to make the Protoss think you're going to 2-rax him. That said, it doesn't change the fact that Terran is stronger in all stages just because of the huge micro potential in their units. The Marine is the most obvious example. In PvZ I would have to say Zerg can still do things with mutas, just so long as they don't over-commit to them. It does take a while to tech to Fleet Bacon, after all. | ||
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Cassel_Castle
United States820 Posts
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Svennedude
Belgium86 Posts
On March 14 2012 13:28 Alethios wrote: Terrans are clearly the strongest race. Just look at Flash. (Not to mention Boxer, Nada and iloveoov himself). lol were talking about starcraft 2 here... not bw and from what i've seen early game terran has its advantages mid protoss late protoss because colossus just a move... combine that with a bit of forcefield micro and storms and it becomes really hard to beat a protoss as terran. standpoint from a zerg who often likes to play random^^ | ||
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RooStaR
United States58 Posts
In a game that depends so heavily on economy, Zerg is the best race. They lose all their drones? Spend a prouction cycle on drones, now back ahead in drones. Terrans have mules and Protoss has chrono. You know how to limit mules? Make terrans scan. Show them 1 burrowed baneling, you don't even have to make 1 more baneling. Zergs get to make ALL units out of their hatchery. They are a reactionary race and can stock pile minerals until the last minute to come up with the best combination to counter with. People think Ultras are awful, but maybe people should use infestors with Ultras before complaining. Fungal use with Ultras is amazing. I'm rambling, but my point is race population will decide the poll. There are more zergs, so they'll be third. There more terrans than protoss, so terran will be second. Bias rules polls. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On March 15 2012 13:50 RooStaR wrote: The problem with a poll like this is bias. People never want to blame their own shortcomings on themselves. In general, people are too weak to admit that they lost because they weren't good enough. This poll will probably end up in the order of race population; the race with the highest population will be last. In a game that depends so heavily on economy, Zerg is the best race. They lose all their drones? Spend a prouction cycle on drones, now back ahead in drones. Terrans have mules and Protoss has chrono. You know how to limit mules? Make terrans scan. Show them 1 burrowed baneling, you don't even have to make 1 more baneling. Zergs get to make ALL units out of their hatchery. They are a reactionary race and can stock pile minerals until the last minute to come up with the best combination to counter with. People think Ultras are awful, but maybe people should use infestors with Ultras before complaining. Fungal use with Ultras is amazing. I'm rambling, but my point is race population will decide the poll. There are more zergs, so they'll be third. There more terrans than protoss, so terran will be second. Bias rules polls. Simply wrong. Terran is the least played race. Aside from that, I play Terran and still voted Terran as the strongest race. Not everybody is unable to make objective decisions. | ||
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Fizzy
Sweden388 Posts
Most people who win against me just keeps pressure up and makes alot of expansions, sooner or later you are gonna have way superior economy and just trash the protoss army. I voted for Zerg just because i usually have problems against 3base zergling/baneling into broodlords. This build seems like it just require you to a-move your units and not rly care about what happens so it seems pretty imbalanced to me. Alltho im just a casual player on a high-platinum / low-diamond lvl atm, things might be totally different in other leagues. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 15 2012 13:50 RooStaR wrote: The problem with a poll like this is bias. People never want to blame their own shortcomings on themselves. In general, people are too weak to admit that they lost because they weren't good enough. This poll will probably end up in the order of race population; the race with the highest population will be last. In a game that depends so heavily on economy, Zerg is the best race. They lose all their drones? Spend a prouction cycle on drones, now back ahead in drones. Terrans have mules and Protoss has chrono. You know how to limit mules? Make terrans scan. Show them 1 burrowed baneling, you don't even have to make 1 more baneling. Zergs get to make ALL units out of their hatchery. They are a reactionary race and can stock pile minerals until the last minute to come up with the best combination to counter with. People think Ultras are awful, but maybe people should use infestors with Ultras before complaining. Fungal use with Ultras is amazing. I'm rambling, but my point is race population will decide the poll. There are more zergs, so they'll be third. There more terrans than protoss, so terran will be second. Bias rules polls. Well that whole post just reeks of bias. Sure if z gets behind they can just pump out a load of drones. But that just opens up a huge timing window because you just spent 2k minerals on drones (which btw would not be instant unless its super late game or you're playing like shit with a huge bank anyway). Lets talk about what terran does when they get behind shall we? Mules do not open up a timing. Zerg have a much harder time killing a terran who is behind than vice versa. If the T has siege mode and good sim city you basicallly can't attack them until hive tech or you run a quite high risk of losing your whole army very cost-ineffectively. If you get ahead of a terran you still have to play as if the game is even, you can expand a little more but you're still very vulnerable to losing a huge amount of eco from drops or hellions (which are much cheaper and often much more effective then muta). If somehow the T gets a third up he can make it a planetary and you have to commit a fuckton of gas into taking it out, else he just gets to 3base and then you're really screwed. If the terran gets ahead he just walks into your base and kills you. I know that sounds like a whine, but if you take out the emotion i'm basically saying I think T is most powerful atm because they have more tools to allow them to come back when behind. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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sixnoluv
41 Posts
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4Relic
24 Posts
Meanwhile at Blizzard... Dustin Browder: DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS, DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS. | ||
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Nadril
68 Posts
If my opponent makes no attempt to attack me or harass me in any way than I have an easy game. It's true. As a protoss I like to be able to tech just like I want and get my army composition that I want. However if a player does aggression and does it decently it becomes a whole other story. Suddenly I need to make sure I have just enough sentries and I need to make sure that I'm dropping great force fields. Spam too many, I run out of energy and die (or I make too many sentries and have a horrible army). A missed force field can cost you a game. Once I have to deal with a ton of mutalisks, or super aggressive roach/ling pressure, or a lot of these really strong Terran MMM timings.. it gets much more difficult and much more micro oriented. That's the only thing I wish people would realize. Protoss just feel weak early on. Sadly, as well, with the way the protoss army is our late game composition is incredible... but really good micro can deal with it. So we're stuck with being called "EZ Imba noob" on the ladder while Protoss still struggles in tournaments like the GSL. For the poll I voted zerg, as I think ZvT and ZvP is really good for them right now. Looking at players like DRG and Stephano, they just seem to be ridiculously strong in both match ups. (Also I think that no matter what month this poll would be posted Protoss would always be voted as most imba. Even when we sucked ass people called us imba) | ||
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mokumoku
157 Posts
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
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Faranth
933 Posts
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erazerr
Australia86 Posts
still.. funny this poll just came up after months of protoss being absolutely turd - 2 months of p as the strongest and EVERYONE no matter how RETARDED the matchups were just say that protoss is easiest blah blah etc. | ||
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EmperorKira
United Kingdom107 Posts
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FATJESUSONABIKE
184 Posts
it's ridiculously easy to play P at mid-high level and the imbalance is clear and confirmed at pro level (especially in PvZ, mostly unwinable for Z) and the poll will pick P. | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
So it's maybe: T>Z>P>T (atleast for me) | ||
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NL.Anonymous
Netherlands50 Posts
Then on the other hand I like to say that I think the game is kinda balanced at this point and I don't think there isn't a way to balance it more without adjusting the game big time. :-) | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
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GoingGoingGone
Slovakia529 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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Khalimaroth
France70 Posts
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On March 15 2012 18:33 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: not only P is the most broken race but it's also the most boring to watch. it's ridiculously easy to play P at mid-high level and the imbalance is clear and confirmed at pro level (especially in PvZ, mostly unwinable for Z) and the poll will pick P. ROFL | ||
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LunaSea
Luxembourg369 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:27 Njbrownie wrote: I'll be happy to rebuttle: -FF's : Force sentry energy to be spent early and often = rendered useless no matter what race and too gas heavy to be rebuilt -Vortex: Mothership is SLOWW fall back and reposition many smaller groups of units in order to minimize toilet losses -Pheonix: c'mon really??? They are so freaking fragile that a slight micro misstep and their dead... you try doing that without auto-attack -High Templar: again splitting is key and hitting snipes as terran or a couple unit hit squads for templar outta place as zerg are both effective counters The only unit I could truly say is difficult to deal with is colossus and it kinda surprises me you didn't really mention them seeing as every race has to go out of their way tech wise to really counter them and the toss player can tech switch fairly easily while your left with useless supply (vikings expecially, corruptors not so much). I think a lot of players find the things you mentioned difficult because army splitting is not the metagame for toss although it SHOULD be. IF you attack head on into a maxed protoss, which you should be trading effectively in order to avoid maxed encounters, but say you let them get maxed and a-move into them with your less expensive maxed army... You should lose. The units are obviously stronger due to capital spent on them. Protoss is also a very ability-centric race and if you let them utilize abilities on a big ball of units you will undoubtedly get crushed, A protoss rarely ever splits his "deathball" so if you can attack from 5+ directions on favorable terrain and micro your groups of units out of AoE threats; with a good composition you should win. To sum it up, engagements from every side with smaller groups of units would be better against a protoss because your limiting the AoE threat of the race in general. Storms even if landed perfectly only have a damage potential of x amount of units instead of a moneystorm on a larger majority of your units leaving them severly weakened / dead. Same with vortex, if a toss is resorting to this he is thinking he probably cannot engage you straight up without both you and him trading armies, or worse just outright losing horribly. Split units to minimize damage potential of vortexs and you stand a better chance of winning an engagement and possibly the game. FF's you force them to spend on a "fake engagement" losing a few zerglings to do so is more than worth it. - For the Force Fields look at this : Look at how many FF's MC placed down and this isn't even late game (they have roughly 130 supply so probably around 10-15 minutes). It's arguable that morrow should've forced MC to waste some Force Fields but never that many. The Tyler clip is like this too : http://youtu.be/i0B_oiJTcDI?hd=1&t=3m20s - Even if the Mothership is slow (not as slow as before but still) Broodlords are also very slow and since they are the core of the Zerg army in ZvP lategame you can't do much about it. --> http://youtu.be/i0B_oiJTcDI?hd=1&t=3m55s - The best example of Phoenix auto-attack would be the first game (not sure about this) of White'Ra vs Stephano 5K $ showmatch in IPL. - I didn't complain about Archons just saying that the combination of Archons and Vortex (Archon Toilet) is too powerfull. Same for Force Fields + Storms ...etc. - Another example of Vortex would be the first game of Grubby vs. White'Ra (PvP) at IEM WC. Like the commentators said Grubby was 3 steps ahead but in the late game Grubby had no Mothership = instantloss because his collossi got vortexed. - Collossi are less of a problem if you don't have that many "traps" like FF's. You can deal effectively with a correct amount of collossi with corruptors and vikings. | ||
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Penke
Sweden346 Posts
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ZeroSix
England54 Posts
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GodOfWar
870 Posts
Protoss used to be weaker but are now up there with the Terrans, and MC shows perfectly how to use the race to its limits. Terrans pretty much are still very strong, but MVP is injured and MMA not consistent enough these days. Polt and MKP make up for those two though. 1) Protoss & Terrans (its a draw really) 3) Zerg (only very slightly behind in terms of success - maybe the Addon will make them the overpowered race, but hey right now Korea at least got current GSL champ DRG and Europe got Stephano, two very successful players for sure) No need to cry about imba here, its all good. If you cant beat a certain matchup, you are not good enough and need to practice more. | ||
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Sigmur
Poland497 Posts
So for me the poll is totally pointless, due to the fact people voting have no competence in judging the topic. Let the statistics say, especially among the pro games. | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
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SadMachine
United States98 Posts
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rinzz
Bulgaria26 Posts
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MillaKilla
1 Post
In TvP I believe it is balanced up until the Protoss has Storm, but when Storm hits and you are not the greatest micro player, you are pretty much screwed over because generally when a Terran goes up against Protoss they play bio, but when Terran units used when they play bio only have between 55 and a 125 HP and a storm hits which deals 80 damage over 4 game seconds which is like 3 and a half seconds or so, there goes most of your Bio force while Protoss still has all of their ground units basically untouched. Colossus could also be brought up but since they can not attack air I feel like thats an argument that I'm not going to have a good response too if someone questions it. But imo I feel like those are the only balancing issues with the game. You could either reduce the damage done by Storm, which in my opinon should be the same as every other casting unit that the other races have to offer, ex. infestor or ghost, or you could increase the amount of energy forcefields take up to like 50. Those would be the only changes I feel that would make the game truly balanced. Btw, infestors fungal growth deals 30 damage(40 to armored) and Ghost emp deals 100 damage to shielded units or energy units. Following the same logic though you would say that Ghost's emp should be nerfed but when Protoss have shields that can regenerate at an alarming rate and actually dont deal any physical damage to the unit so it is basically a nonkilling cast, which is unique to the other casting attacks. That why I believe they have it deal as much damage as it does. Just putting my 2 cents in. I feel like this is a fairly accurate description of the imba in the game today | ||
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Typhus
Norway122 Posts
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justin1850
United States1 Post
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Metaphorical
1 Post
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hyperknight
294 Posts
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:07 JimmiC wrote: this is silly, no one thinks there own race is strong because everyone thinks the reason they lose is the race they play not their own play. Yet everyone can choose the race they want. CRAZY Haven't you realized by now ? Noone play the best race because they have too much self respect. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
Complaining about warpgates and forcefields? Really? Is my calendar wrong? Is this March 2011? Where were you when toss was in the shitter? People vote with their eyes. They see storm and force fields and wonder how the T or Z could have a-moved better and thus conclude that Toss is op. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. I'm seeing same comps as in almost as far as beta. Other races are the ones who learn more unique styles atm. Zerg and Terran unbelievebly strong too if you think about it. ^^ | ||
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
On March 15 2012 18:33 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: not only P is the most broken race but it's also the most boring to watch. it's ridiculously easy to play P at mid-high level and the imbalance is clear and confirmed at pro level (especially in PvZ, mostly unwinable for Z) and the poll will pick P. Switch to P and keep talking. Everybody says Protoss is easy and OP but toss is the least successful race in the game. | ||
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gamingaddictmike
Canada30 Posts
"Which race is the strongest" is different from "Which race is "over powered" I don't want to sound incredibly rude but I feel zergs have a tendency to complain that they are weakest consistently and I just don't see that much proof in it (at least lately, obviously early days of SC2 was a zerg nightmare). I am a diamond random player so obviously I haven't been exposed to the high level of skill required to see the balance of the game in detail, but I actively watch GSL and other high level tournaments, and follow the strategies of the races through shows like "The Artosis Hour" and others that focus on analysis. I feel strategically even if my diamond status doesn't show it I have a pretty good knowledge of the races and their balances respectively. As such, I feel Zerg has strong advantages that Protoss and Terran don't, and the same is true for Terran having strong advantages over P and Z, and Protoss having strong advantages over T, Z..as the game was designed that way... I feel when mutas were dominating no zerg was willing to admit that at that Point in the game zerg was pretty strong...and it bothers me a bit, but maybe I'm just biased. At least when 1/1/1 came out terrans were OK with admitting it was very difficult to deal with.. At the moment I think a lot of the matchups aren't simply "strong" or "weak" but rather weak and strong at different times.. for example PvZ = Protoss being very strong with 2 base timing attacks and if microed perfectly it feels unstoppable..but then it is (imo) very weak when it comes down to hive tech + brood lords..at that point as a Zerg I feel I'm in a really strong spot as long as I'm smart about positioning (ie: it's my mistakes that cost me the game much like how it is vice versa for protoss early game) TvP = Terran early game pushes are very powerful and are incredibly difficult for toss to stop. A good 2 racks timing alone can end a protoss. Then moving into late game charge zealots are very strong with colossus and archon/storm... Still though I feel this matchup is more balanced (or at least more explored) and comes down to positioning... TvZ= Not as much to say on this because the ghost nerf really hurts T imo.....but still Hive is very difficult to stop.....I feel TvZ is pretty balanced too though (if not for the patch) Basically I find it's either a flaw in the game design or just the way it was designed, but for me I don't really believe anything is purely stronger 100% of the time...it's just difficult at different times. I also think players of each race should be more willing to admit that they may have an advantage, but this will only come if more players are willing to consider that it's not simply a balance issue.... Hope someone agrees with me ^^ | ||
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Woj
United States133 Posts
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razmusmoren
11 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. biased reply is biased. | ||
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-ReD-
Canada167 Posts
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SadMachine
United States98 Posts
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
Anyway I voted for zerg. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:25 mrRoflpwn wrote: protoss wins a tournaments after 6 months~ protoss is immediately imba people are so pathetic. ALL SAID! I am P and what i can say is that Z is above P for sure ... not as unbalance as in SC-BW where PvZ is almost a free win for Z but still Z favored ... i can't pull out a clear win without cheesing the Z in some way at the beginning ... PvT seems more balanced. Don't know about ZvT. | ||
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gamingaddictmike
Canada30 Posts
On March 16 2012 04:48 Xeln4g4 wrote: ALL SAID! I am P and what i can say is that Z is above P for sure ... not as unbalance as in SC-BW where PvZ is almost a free win for Z but still Z favored ... i can't pull out a clear win without cheesing the Z in some way at the beginning ... PvT seems more balanced. Don't know about ZvT. But what is that actually based on? Like I think out of my 3 races I would say P is my favourite and i'm tempted to agree with you but the community can't just make blanket statements based entirely on their own performance. That's what IdrA does and he says P is ridiculously over powered that's what Naniwa does and he says P is under powered... it doesn't feel like an intelligent way to approach the matchup Without trying to sound conceited I feel the method I offered in which you look at it more complexly focusing on win rates, but match times too.. I hate when Zerg's get to hive..I hate that I feel have to think of new creative all ins (or rather steal other players new creative all ins) as protoss..but that doesn't mean that zerg is the clear favourite?? | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 15 2012 16:23 mokumoku wrote: everything is pretty balanced right now, the only thing that sucks in the game now is TvT. but i don't think they can fix it. Uh, what? | ||
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DarkMatterUK
United Kingdom33 Posts
For Terran the hardest match up is Zerg. Sure protoss have some nice timing attacks but using ghosts correctly and getting a good composition (which is part of the game) is the way to beat toss. With Zerg late game now it forces terran to either go mech from the off. Or do a polt and abuse the moveability of a slow BL army. Therefore from a Terran perspective - Zerg Lets look at Zerg. The hardest match up now is arguably Protoss? I feel this is because the meta game has changed (See some guy called MC or Genius about this) you could say ZvZ is hard? but its more of a dogfight really... So for Zerg, hardest match up is - Protoss And for Protoss. Well its difficult but Id say that both match ups are difficult. If a Terran goes late game the Protoss definitely has the advantage, however vs Zerg if you don't have a mothership your almost certainly dead. So its split. I guess you could say that : Late Game - Zerg Early Game - Terran Weighing it all up, with recent patches and such you'd have to say Zerg is in a powerful place right now. Protoss is doing alot better due to shifts in the metagame and the decreasing risk of mass mutalisk (DANG that was strong) and you cant discount terran. Early/Mid game Terran is extremely strong and stylistic choices are the main things to look at before saying theyre weak. I mean look at tournaments. And for those who are really hating on the protoss right now? Look at the best players in the world right now... MKP - Terran DonRaeGu - Zerg MMA - Terran NesTea- Zerg MC - Protoss This isnt stacked for any race? certainly not protoss. So calm down guys! The balance is producing exciting games and I cant wait for the next meta game switch where everyone starts hating terran again (: Marine are imba. | ||
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Mnemosyne13
Sweden3 Posts
Terran army is rather slow, they dont have the ability like protoss to warpin units so big maps is really a problem. About the units, Terran is really strong in lower leuages cuz of smaller units. All their DPS can get clumped up on a very small space compared to protoss that require a larger portion of space many times. The more clumped up the units are, the weaker they become to AOE like, fungle, storm, that better players use more often and more successful but its still needed to clump them up if you want to max your DPS. Fungle isnt nearly as dangerous for stalkers as for marines and terran lack of AOE spells (except a joke called seeker missile). Sure terran have ghosts with emp but they only work vs protoss and if we compare it to fungle EMP do less damage then the average fungle and dont root(imba) the units. People complained about ghosts dealing too much damage, one snipe 45 dmg or whatever but how much does a fungle deal? Its just incredible sometimes. If we compare it to storm, guys, EMP can never kill protoss units no matter how much hits you get. But you dont need many storms to kill a stack of 25 marines. I belive it might be a psychological effect when they see their shields go down instantly but remember, its not like you even lose 50% of the total amount of health its way less and if Protoss storm would have the same effect on terran as EMP have on protoss? Few would even bother to dodge it. If id start playing a new race today, it would be Zerg no doubt. There are few maps like "SC1 BloodBath" in the mappool. Maybe its harder to play Zerg perfectly then the other races, but their potential are absolutley higher on most of the current maps. One question, why do we so rarley see aggressive zergs early on (exept in ZvZ) while both Z and P try to be it. Answer is an unmatched accelerated growth, they can but dont have too, its better to play defensive. While the other races more or less have to keep preassure or zerg goes out of controll. That standard zerg macro cheese is ... awesome =) | ||
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Fluffeh
Sweden66 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:50 Esk23 wrote: Terran has to micro a lot more, and more perfecty when engaging Protoss or your whole army gets stormed a couple of times and you get absolutely destroyed. And even if you engage and micro well, Protoss just warps in a ton of units. Protoss is just dumb right now. Right now? It's been like that for what, ever? And the high number of Protoss (gsl)champions clearly shows it's really good. | ||
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Troxle
United States486 Posts
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tHecHiCkEn
Germany5 Posts
and in pvz protoss is in my opinion really micrintensive so hard to hold in midgame with only 100 supply against zergs 150. Other problem is against muta ling that if u didnt know exactly that zerg go for that style ur fucked as protoss. tvz is hard for terran i think because its also very microintensive. if u go mac style it hink u have problems against muta because of ur immobility and if u go for bioarmy and tanks its hard to force against banelings btw im protoss player. so maybe im completely wrong in tvz^^ conclusion: z p t | ||
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babybell
776 Posts
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
Toss is the most frustrating race to play against for me because it nearly always comes down to one engagement, not that there aren't others, but its extremely difficult to slowly accumulate an advantage (as zerg needs to do) vs a race that can all in on the fly. | ||
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Xardas1987
Germany2 Posts
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HoBb3
Sweden38 Posts
The fact that high level Terrans are having more success is because multitasking benefits terran alot more than protoss. Same thing with Zerg but not as much. | ||
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gamingaddictmike
Canada30 Posts
People who claim you must be masters or higher to enter this discussion are right if the person uses only their games as support to their claims.... | ||
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smurfcruiser
1 Post
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miScythe
Norway16 Posts
On March 16 2012 06:14 HoBb3 wrote: The fact that one race have to micro more then the other doesn't make one or the other stronger, but easier. The fact that high level Terrans are having more success is because multitasking benefits terran alot more than protoss. Same thing with Zerg but not as much. I 100% agree. Protoss may be a bit easier to play, I admit, at least in the lower leagues. But I still think it is pretty hard to master Protoss at the higher levels. Terran may be the hardest race to play, but when you master it, it can be pretty damn good, if not the best. Terran is so diverce than the other races, so if a person is really good, then it is hard to beat a Terran. But does that mean that it is unbalanced? Not at all. You have to earn the skills to be best and find the race that benefits your playstyle the most. As it is now, I am actually pretty pleased with the balance in general. I lose some, I win some - against every race. I really don't bother that much with the balancing matters, I just play the game and adapt to that. | ||
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Peqqz
Germany201 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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Cassel_Castle
United States820 Posts
On March 16 2012 01:28 Metaphorical wrote: At diamond level zerg is imba because they don't get punished as hard for poor macro. If a terran or protoss misses a round of units they will never be able to make them again. Whilst a zerg can sit on 5000mins/gas and just chuck it all into units when they remember they have a keyboard. It works the opposite way for mules/chronoboost vs larva inject though, so I'd imagine that's intentional. | ||
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
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CrashLight
Germany1 Post
Zerg > Terran Protoss > Zerg Terran > Protoss Therefore you have to split the power of each race in the early, mid and late game to decide which is the strongest race. | ||
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Cthulhukicks
United States16 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On March 16 2012 01:28 Metaphorical wrote: At diamond level zerg is imba because they don't get punished as hard for poor macro. If a terran or protoss misses a round of units they will never be able to make them again. Whilst a zerg can sit on 5000mins/gas and just chuck it all into units when they remember they have a keyboard. Well your hatchery doesn't naturally produce larva once its at 3 but I suppose thats not as big of a deal at diamond level. On March 16 2012 07:17 CrashLight wrote: My Opinion Zerg > Terran Protoss > Zerg Terran > Protoss Therefore you have to split the power of each race in the early, mid and late game to decide which is the strongest race. Hah the funny part is that historically that is the exact opposite of what bw was like xD Maybe i'm just the only one that gets a kick out of that. But honestly I didn't vote in this poll because there's no way to tell which race is the strongest. The best we can do is come up with which race feels the strongest based on the ignorance of the players. Until the game is figured out (which it wont be before HoTS) "which race is the best" can't be answered without scripting perfect AI and pitting each race against each other. Maybe i'm taking the question a little to seriously but I see much too many mistakes in the games that I watch and the things I see that are exclaimed to be imba, I see pro players handling those situations horribly (or at the very least sub-optimally). I anticipate this poll again a couple years after LoV when the pros have refined their skills and know what exactly they are doing. Hopefully it will be a 3 way tie ^^ | ||
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
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CFCryptos
United States70 Posts
On March 14 2012 20:20 Mentalizor wrote: That argument just doesn't work. One season we had 6/8 Terran players in the quarterfinals. So... terran was super dominant. Even more so than P today. How much did blizzard nerf them? They only changed the ghost and now protoss is too strong? That doesn't make sence. Watch Stephano or any clearthinking zerg against a protoss. It aint pretty... But yeah... Woah woah stop right there.. 1st of all are u freaking kidding me? ur saying only thing they nerfed is ghost? LOL Every patch terran gets nerfed i want you to go find a patch that terran didnt get nerfed in. Plx try cuz u wont find 1 | ||
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gamingaddictmike
Canada30 Posts
On March 16 2012 07:14 goldenwitch wrote: I like how this poll almost inversely correlates to the race distribution of TL LMAO so true | ||
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BLACKnegro
Canada1 Post
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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PopcornColonel
United States769 Posts
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:14 PopcornColonel wrote: I have no idea why people are choosing Protoss when it's statistically inaccurate... Sure TvP slightly (if not more than slightly) favours protoss, but the gap in ZvP favouring zerg is far wider than that in TvP. relax bro , i dont even know why this poll is here...name should be "to which race you lose most of the time"... | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On March 16 2012 08:06 CFCryptos wrote: Woah woah stop right there.. 1st of all are u freaking kidding me? ur saying only thing they nerfed is ghost? LOL Every patch terran gets nerfed i want you to go find a patch that terran didnt get nerfed in. Plx try cuz u wont find 1 To be fair... Since then the noteworthe changes for TvP is: Longer raxx build time Longer bunker build time 100% --> 75% salvage EMP "only" does 100 dmg/energy drain rather than all the energy/shield and -1 radius on EMP Ghost cost changed from 150/150 --> 200/100, which imo is a buff. Changes not really changing the TvP metagame: Faster BC's Faster seeker missiles Ghost snipe altered (doesn't change much for TvP since you will most likely be sniping dt/ht and maybe a few zlots, but that's not their main issue) Blueflame going from +10 --> +5, which really doesn't alter much in TvP either. So sure, there are some changes. But if you remove everything including ghosts you will have a +5sec raxx, a +10sec bunker and fewer minerals on salvaging. I realize there are actual factors on how a game can swing. But comparing to how protoss got hit with the nerfhammer since then (almost +1minute on warpgate research, removing khaydarin amulet) I cannot see, how those changes are actually worth mentioning as being the ones breaking the TvP metagame I | ||
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Svennedude
Belgium86 Posts
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dnld12
United States324 Posts
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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ProxySilmaril
81 Posts
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RRider
United States16 Posts
anyway voted terran for the fact that there early game i feel is pretty darn good | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
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GloryOfAiur
United States127 Posts
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ailouros
United States193 Posts
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Ailox
Norway10 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:56 ForgeLife wrote: protoss is SUPER weak in the early game. other than that they are the strongest, but honestly you can't really make a statement of which race is the strongest or not. it is almost perfectly balanced at this point. Thank you ser! People complaining about HT is just poor-.- By the sound of it people think storms are just to be thrown out... the time and gas spent to get a decent number of HTs with energy is quite large contra the fact that ONE emp at the right moment will render them dead or an inactive morphing archon... As it is now I'd say it is all fairly ok. Only thing I can think of that I dislike at this poin is terran's mid-game ability to leave 2-3 tanks at home and be totally safe whilst their entire bio-army is stimming about in my main... althought that is to blame on my own inability to handle drops well, not terran being OP. | ||
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krnboyxjin
United States98 Posts
but at the pros level.....where more micro and macro can be done to the max...it really is hard to say what is the best race. Still..toss is a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot easier to play | ||
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
So I voted zerg because Stephano dominates foreigners and DRG is the best player in the world right now (or at least last time we really got to see.) Both are zerg. I don't think zerg is op by any means, but the top players for zerg can beat pretty much anyone that comes at them. Can't really say the same for either T or P; they both have to deal with the monsters that are DRG and Stephano ;x. | ||
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similarion
Canada10 Posts
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
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Scvhero
United States20 Posts
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
- All terrans nerfs - Map pool is better for both races. Remember we had maps like steppes, kulas, delta, LT, very easy win for terran. - Immortal buff : makes protoss less weak at start, easier to take fast expansion. - Ultra buff : makes possible for zerg to switch late game between BL or ultra, making them very powerful. | ||
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terran_op
Germany3 Posts
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catabowl
United States815 Posts
Toss complained that the 1-1-1 was OP for Terran... Immortal buff... now Toss has no weakness against Terran. They can double nexus early without any consequence. | ||
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xevis
United States218 Posts
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
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ConRa
Sweden42 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
Zerg you got my vote! | ||
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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
Id say the game is a lot more balenced than a lot of people make out, but protoss late game is a little too strong atm, and it makes protoss the strongest race. | ||
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Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
Edit: I just think this feeds people to complain more about the race they have problems with. Next to that the results of this poll don't mean anything, propably it's just a reflection of 'the other races' than the races people play who voted on this poll. Interesting poll next to this one would be: did you vote on your own race? yes no I think we all know the answer to this poll | ||
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A-BomB
Ireland79 Posts
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Audacitysc2
United States8 Posts
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Audacitysc2
United States8 Posts
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terran_op
Germany3 Posts
MC: toss>>>>>>>Zerg MC - Stephano: 3 - 0 questions? | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On March 16 2012 21:49 A-BomB wrote: this poll is beyond stupidity,not only do you have a bunch of bonze-diamonds who are gona vote for which ever race they cant beat AND people are never gona vote for there own race....all this basicly show is that protoss is the strongest at lower levels/has the lowest % on TL,i mean when zerg just won gsl,the only foreigner who can compete with koreans is zerg,and that foreigner himself said protoss needs a buff........................... Exactly, this poll is not beyond stupidity, it's proving a valid point - Zerg is easy to play at low levels, but it's not too strong to beat. Protoss is impossibly hard to beat in the late game at lower levels, and that's why most people voted on them. Terran still has the marine, but other than that they are harder to control at the lower levels, and so a lot of Terran players find it difficult to beat Protoss. Just because this is a Starcraft balance thread on TL doesn't mean that it's a balance thread about the highest levels. Go start your own, "which race is hardest to play against in the GSL?" Or since you think you're at a higher level than "bronze-diamond", why don't you start one for "Masters only"? | ||
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sPlosH
20 Posts
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deathzz
669 Posts
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Barabossa
Belgium8 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:50 Danger Boy wrote: Terran have to do to much to be effective, Protoss have little unit control to worry about... Lol. Sure, the race with the most spellcasters and with units that are good but expensive can just A-move. U so smart. | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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GodZo
Italy224 Posts
http://imgur.com/a/1aAfu http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_2/Code_S Much people can't understand the balance is not for silvers and golds | ||
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Frammer
Germany2 Posts
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zomgE
498 Posts
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mRpolite
189 Posts
zerg won gsl terran won mlg protoss won iem wc :D | ||
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Fierytycoon
United States85 Posts
usually protoss scouts zerg at 9 protoss scouts terran at 12 terran doesnt scout zerg overlord scouts obviously protoss is underpowered | ||
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Dyme
Germany523 Posts
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milan1101
5 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:56 ForgeLife wrote: protoss is SUPER weak in the early game. other than that they are the strongest, but honestly you can't really make a statement of which race is the strongest or not. it is almost perfectly balanced at this point. You dont know anything about this game cause SC2 will never be balanced perfectly its imposible... Toss is not weak in the early game cause you can make proxy pylon and spawn units and make a strong push.... | ||
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Noro
Canada991 Posts
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straycat
230 Posts
I play zerg. Yeaaaaah! | ||
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MistraL958
Switzerland100 Posts
Terran must be overpowered... Most arguments are so dumb on this poll. One should make a dataset with following splits (just an example) -How many games Race X wins before 10 minutes mark -How many games Race X wins after 20 minutes mark -How many games Race X wins after reaching Tier3 units -How many games Race X wins because of build order win -How many games Race X wins if ... bla bla bla One could also view all pro games withing a month and ask some progamer to answer some questions like: -Does player playing Race X win while his opponent was having a clear advantage at some point? Its just too time consuming but some analysis like that could make sense... Btw there are more Terran players today bcs Terran was the most dominant race at the beginning... Obviously there will be more Terrans then zergs but thats just bcs players do not switch races every 2 weeks... luckily... Basically, I think with current understanding of the game, Protoss is the strongest... | ||
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Doc_Starcraft
United States3 Posts
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rOse_PedaL
Korea (South)450 Posts
there is multitasking micro and macro if you are good at those then you can make terran strong but if you are just chobo you think that terran is really weak for me i pick toss they are hard to beat T^T | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
On March 17 2012 01:30 Dyme wrote: Z>P>T>Z It is like like this. Everything is unbalanced at the moment. I am a low master Terran and winning against toss is nearly impossible if they dont make any big mistakes. | ||
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vendettahow
14 Posts
On March 17 2012 01:26 mRpolite wrote: in my humble opinion, the game was never more balanced than it is right now. i feel that zerg is just a little behind 'cause it doesn't feel there are enough really really good players on a global level. they are amazing but there simply isn't enough of them. terran and protoss 'superplayer roster' is so much bigger they are pushing it more. especially protoss. they are really getting a hook on their HOLE arsenal. i can understand terrans for bitching (pardon my language) so much. it doesn't feel as easy anymore to win zerg won gsl terran won mlg protoss won iem wc :D I agree very much with this post. I don't believe zerg is at all underpowered, particularly after the ghost nerf, but I DO agree that there are essentially like two super players right now for Z, which are DRG and Stephano. Most other zergs are streaky in the current meta, and in my opinion the zerg race must know the meta more than any other. Protoss have always been as strong as they are right now, but they opted to go for timing attacks and all-ins up until now, with their champions being players like MC. It seems Korean Protoss are just now realizing they can win by doing nothing but defending and reaching 200/200. Terran must outplay their opponent to win from mid to late game period. Unfortunately, that has always felt like what Terran must do, but terran players have had the advantage of having dozens of top-tier pros to look to for builds, variety, and timings. Also, Terran is the most versatile race in early to mid-game, being able to win with nearly any unit composition if controlled correctly. However, from midgame on this is no longer the case b/c of the way Terran upgrades work. The only example of terran turtling to 200/200 and still winning was MvP's mass ghost play, which is no longer an option. The race that was created to turtle in BW and expected to turtle in SC2 can do nothing of the sort. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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ClapYoHandz
United States5 Posts
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AldjinnEU
France27 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:43 jordan dallas padget wrote: storm good T.T Storms don't kill people. Templars kill people. | ||
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SharkZ
Bulgaria8 Posts
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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veGGen
Norway62 Posts
If you think DRG and stephano are bad players and should stfu, please keep it to yourself cause you are making a fool of yourself. | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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Felwarrior
United States10 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:56 ForgeLife wrote: protoss is SUPER weak in the early game. other than that they are the strongest, but honestly you can't really make a statement of which race is the strongest or not. it is almost perfectly balanced at this point. lol i guess you've never seen what early stalkers can do... | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
It's hard to say which race is the strongest right now. Terrans dominate the GSL (keep in mind that the foreign terrans are significantly worse than the foreign zergs and tosses), but it could be possible that those players are just that good. Remember in BW that the most famous players are mostly terran; in fact, 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terran. But this didn't mean terran was OP; it just meant that those players were that good. | ||
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tns
1054 Posts
not because terran are strong... because it suits their (koreans) style the best... Micro & multitask... not because it's so strong ;o NesTea bonjwa! | ||
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OzkanTheFlip
United States246 Posts
just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is | ||
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Lakanen
Sweden1 Post
templars have energy for 2storms 160dmg. Terran bio army = kite vs chargelots or you die.. so Terran need 2run away from the units protoss use the most. Funny isnt it | ||
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Lisitsa
Korea (South)29 Posts
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Mzimzim
United States221 Posts
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phyK
Germany73 Posts
On March 17 2012 07:16 Mzimzim wrote: i wish we could get the stat of how many people voted for there own race. probably like 2% well I voted mine | ||
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
Congratulations, you just made yourself the 1% | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On March 17 2012 06:36 Lakanen wrote: 1 Storm 80dmg. templars have energy for 2storms 160dmg. Terran bio army = kite vs chargelots or you die.. so Terran need 2run away from the units protoss use the most. Funny isnt it yea its SO FUNNY !!! that Ghosts do 100 dmg with EMP instantly, you cant dodge them like Storms, 2 snipes and the ht is just dead (plus the fact that ghosts snipe has more range than feedback), and you kite zealots 4 ever... funny, isn't it ? rofl ... | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
On March 17 2012 01:54 straycat wrote: I voted zerg. I play zerg. Yeaaaaah! Okay after tonight's session I would like to revise my answer and say that Protoss and Terran is the strongest race. Both. | ||
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ilju
Finland7 Posts
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Embryous
42 Posts
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Twitos
Canada1 Post
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote: terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is Well said. Toss players constantly cite GSL results as if it's the undeniable identifier of balance lol. The bottom line is the best players currently use Terran, has nothing to do with race balance. On even player skill, Protoss is the strongest race. Easily. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
The new maps and balance changes seem like they have worked pretty well. I'm going to say Z is the strongest because: 1) Infestor broodlord. 2) No pros are good at exploiting all aspects of Z, except maybe DRG. Nobody can find a "best" style, and the styles are changing rapidly. | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
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brainox
Germany292 Posts
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Hilo
Estonia114 Posts
On March 17 2012 20:10 brainox wrote: Protoss strongest atm because late game army of protoss is the strongest early midgame not so much imo but late game can be really tough especially for terran i think Protoss lategame is the weakest.... but I have to say terran is the strongest atm.. maybe because of their style.... protoss has weak early-midgame army and they need to all in a lot to win (GSL) hard to macro vs other races... you need early 3rd or all in... gateway units weak + eco weaker than other races... | ||
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DeuceStarcraft
Canada60 Posts
The Starcraft Masters map kind of highlights this in one of the challenges where it's a small gateway army vs. a tonne of Zerglings, which is only winnable by intelligently placed forcefields. I think about this in regards to a 200/200 Protoss Deathball, vs. a 200/200 Zerg army. In a normal engagement, I think the Protoss Deathball would win in a great majority of cases (of course I'm not taking composition into account here at all), but would have a huge amount of loses. Whereas, great forcefield placement would allow the Protoss player to pretty much decimate the Zerg army with minimal loses. I find it odd that HUGE victories for Protoss seem to rely so much on a single, early game unit, and requires a great deal of skill in order to use effectively. Just my two cents. Feel free to argue, like I said, I'm a Zerg player, so my knowledge of Protoss is lacking. | ||
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aicaramba
Netherlands110 Posts
On March 17 2012 06:36 OzkanTheFlip wrote: terran has been getting better results in tournements but that because the terran players are just better, protoss is still best race and zerg is the weakest just because toss hasnt been wining tournements doesnt say anything about how good the race is How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) | ||
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MMOwnageSports
United Kingdom300 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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Mario1209
United States1077 Posts
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Kpaxlol
813 Posts
On March 18 2012 01:42 GamingLively wrote: Protoss in the lower leagues but in the hands of a pro player, Zerg rules. MC says hi. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
But honestly who cares about lower levels, we wanted a competitive game that was balanced around the proscene, so we got one. High level play seems quite balanced atm. | ||
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Thomassn
Netherlands12 Posts
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kineticSYN
United States909 Posts
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crystyle
Poland8 Posts
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
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ig0tfish
United States345 Posts
On March 18 2012 03:20 Thomassn wrote: Terran, might be because I just lost to A SINGLE DROP of marines where I must have send at least 50 lings at a time at with superior upgrades he didn't micro at all... they just stood there shooting down everything kiling my pool and my lair I was confused how this even happend it's like he had immortality cheat from GTA or something. Yeah I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
On March 18 2012 06:48 Monsen wrote: I'll judge that when T starts using all of their units. Whining on a new level: I want to call Terran OP but since it is getting kind of hard, I'll say they are hypothetically OP. Brilliant. | ||
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WGhyperion
United States2 Posts
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ElvisWayCool
United States437 Posts
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Paladia
802 Posts
Zergling running past your army? No problem, just raise supply depot. Forgot to make detection? NP, just use scan. Forgot to use macro mechanic energy? NP, just throw down 10 mules at a time. Invested in too much static defense? NP, just use salvage. Lost all your workers? NP, just use mules. Afraid of losing your expansions? NP, just lift off or use PF. Can't scout? NP, just use scan. Don't want to invest in drops? NP, just use your medic. Can't macro? NP, all unit production can be queued. Still can't macro? NP, each production facility can make two units at a time. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On March 18 2012 06:59 blackone wrote: Whining on a new level: I want to call Terran OP but since it is getting kind of hard, I'll say they are hypothetically OP. Brilliant. You're right on so many levels I just have to congratulate you. 1.) You're absolute spot on with "new level of whining". However, since I stopped playing SC2 ages ago (probably close to 1 year) whatever butthurt is around, might just have to be your own. 2.) My brilliance. I am indeed a smart motherfucker, but, my dear fan- so are you. And because I know you are, here's a little riddle for you. *Spot the difference* "If terrans used all their units, they would be overpowered." "Once(when) terrans use all their units, I'll judge that (which race is the strongest)." If you could spot the difference, here's your reward + Show Spoiler + | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. the only unit that isn't used is the carrier. and before archon toilets the mothership. protoss have been using their full arsenal since the beginning. | ||
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Covariance
Canada59 Posts
On March 18 2012 09:08 Paladia wrote: Terran, just too many safety mechanics. Zergling running past your army? No problem, just raise supply depot. Forgot to make detection? NP, just use scan. Forgot to use macro mechanic energy? NP, just throw down 10 mules at a time. Invested in too much static defense? NP, just use salvage. Lost all your workers? NP, just use mules. Afraid of losing your expansions? NP, just lift off or use PF. Can't scout? NP, just use scan. Don't want to invest in drops? NP, just use your medic. Can't macro? NP, all unit production can be queued. Still can't macro? NP, each production facility can make two units at a time. Haha, well put! A lot of forum content makes me weep for humanity (e.g., the number of people who don't realise that presenting numbers does not constitute inferential statistics) but this was very well put :D | ||
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Putain_De_Putois
France9 Posts
An interesting thing would be to deduce something about balance from the gap between votes and players percentage. Lets assume random is proportionnaly distributed between all races. We would have : 36% of protoss players / 40% of votes 34% of terran players / 31% of votes 30% of zerg players / 29% of votes According to this, TvP needs a slight modification. And i dont mean balance modification, maybe just some meta game evolution, as the numbers are not shocking. Time will tell. | ||
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Tpyro
France10 Posts
Zergling running past your army? No problem, just raise supply depot. Supply wall? Hello banelings. Forgot to make detection? NP, just use scan. Or you just don't forget. Forgot to use macro mechanic energy? NP, just throw down 10 mules at a time. Yes, and Chornos Boosts sure are a waste. So are creep tumours and transfuse... Invested in too much static defense? NP, just use salvage. Bunkers, building that don't attack on there own unlike spore/spine/cannon? Lost all your workers? NP, just use mules. Got me one that one. Afraid of losing your expansions? NP, just lift off or use PF. Let's lift our expansion to find a burrowed ling/pylon in its place! Can't scout? NP, just use scan. Inivisble obs and changeling are hard to use... Don't want to invest in drops? NP, just use your medic. Let's not mention Nydus Worm and Warp-in / Recall Can't macro? NP, all unit production can be queued. Let's stack more minerals! Still can't macro? [i]NP, each production facility can make two units at a time. Zerg only has one production building that builds many of all units. Protoss can chrono boost production buildings, no matter the tech unit being built. At least try and see the pros and cons... | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
Many of the posts in this thread perfectly exemplify why top players really hate giving their opinions on issues like these. I'm not going to offer my own viewpoint, but come on. At least TRY to discuss in a meaningful manner.. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:45 aicaramba wrote: How do you know for sure that terran players are better then protoss or zerg players? Explain me plz, because i dont know how you can compare players who play different races with eachother. How do you know its the players and not the race? (Im not trying to say terran is the strongest race) If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. | ||
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Spoogymcgee
Australia14 Posts
On March 18 2012 09:08 Paladia wrote: Terran, just too many safety mechanics. Zergling running past your army? No problem, just raise supply depot. Forgot to make detection? NP, just use scan. Forgot to use macro mechanic energy? NP, just throw down 10 mules at a time. Invested in too much static defense? NP, just use salvage. Lost all your workers? NP, just use mules. Afraid of losing your expansions? NP, just lift off or use PF. Can't scout? NP, just use scan. Don't want to invest in drops? NP, just use your medic. Can't macro? NP, all unit production can be queued. Still can't macro? NP, each production facility can make two units at a time. Terrible argument same thing could be said for each race. Personally all the races are quite balanced currently. However; I do not feel the same about the maps. I feel most people are forgetting about how bias some of the maps are to certain races. | ||
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MaTaAeRuKaNa
United States95 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
However since the game has evolved too, using the advantages of a map seems to be the strongest way to play. I don't think any race is in particular imbalanced, I play Zerg and I find it extremely strong if played well. The only reason the results for Zerg at least in Korea may be lower is the maps - The maps suit Terran (at least a fair few of them). Protoss has been getting a few better maps too, helping them even things out and actually take a lead statistics wise along with the metagame shift. Balance patches have gotten more and more minor and niche, so patches since the initial fungal change haven't really caused a drastic change across the board. I personally voted Protoss, simply because the style of Map being released along with the style of play that Protoss uses makes them scary and they will only get stronger in the coming months... i.e once more is understood about the solve-all style ZvP that is referred to as 'Stephano style' this could happen. I do not enjoy the word imbalance or anything implying it nowadays in SC2. Playing BW back in the day has simply made me a map hater :D | ||
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aicaramba
Netherlands110 Posts
On March 18 2012 15:16 Pokebunny wrote: If you look at Korean Terran players, they all have extremely strong multitasking and control. This is why you see a lot of Korean Code S Terrans doing very well, and slightly less so for other races, and it's also different outside of Code S. And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control? | ||
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GreenFate
France289 Posts
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Coopa826
Germany161 Posts
On March 18 2012 19:53 GreenFate wrote: I feel Zerg is the most powerful race overall, because of larvae system which makes you so flexible and allows macro mistakes. On the other hand, Terrans dominating code S may be due to the fact that stellar control makes your units much more powerful, that's why it only happens in code S ! The Zerg macro mechanic, you call it larvae system, does NOT allow macro mistakes. If you dont inject you have almost no units. Protoss can Chronoboost as many buildings as they want if they dont use chrono properly And i dont really have to talk about terran right? If they forget about their macro mechanic they get instantly rich by throwing 10 mules on one base or they have free detection and vision all over the map. Please never say zerg allows macro mistakes again -.- | ||
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S8on
United States11 Posts
Protoss does seem easy to play when compared to other races. It does a have a tendency to be called the "easy race" or the "1a race". I even surprise myself with what I can get away with sometimes. But until I see another Protoss win GSL or do more than win just 1 major, I will tend to believe there is something wrong with this race. Though if Protoss players continue to play as well as they are, I believe very soon my opinion will be changed. | ||
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Spoogymcgee
Australia14 Posts
On March 18 2012 17:36 Camlito wrote: The maps over time in SC2 have become what dictates results. Early on in the game Terran was legitimately imbalanced and so were the maps (although the style of play back then didn't really show how terrible the maps really were). The maps nowadays are much better and the reasons for a race having an advantage include 'hard to take 4th' or 'too easy to secure 3 bases'. This is much better than '1 second rush distance' or '2 second rush distance. However since the game has evolved too, using the advantages of a map seems to be the strongest way to play. I don't think any race is in particular imbalanced, I play Zerg and I find it extremely strong if played well. The only reason the results for Zerg at least in Korea may be lower is the maps - The maps suit Terran (at least a fair few of them). Protoss has been getting a few better maps too, helping them even things out and actually take a lead statistics wise along with the metagame shift. Balance patches have gotten more and more minor and niche, so patches since the initial fungal change haven't really caused a drastic change across the board. I personally voted Protoss, simply because the style of Map being released along with the style of play that Protoss uses makes them scary and they will only get stronger in the coming months... i.e once more is understood about the solve-all style ZvP that is referred to as 'Stephano style' this could happen. I do not enjoy the word imbalance or anything implying it nowadays in SC2. Playing BW back in the day has simply made me a map hater :D I love that line "reasons for a race having an advantage include 'hard to take 4th' or 'too easy to secure 3 bases". It is exactly what I've been decisioning with my friends. Protoss are probably the strongest on 3 bases (Correct me if I am wrong). Also one of the biggest shifts with the maps which have given protoss such an advantage is that the natural is easily defended and can always FFE without any repercussions compared to maps like Xel'Naga and Duel Sight where the natural is harder to defend and FFE isn't as safe to do every game. | ||
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GreenFate
France289 Posts
On March 18 2012 20:11 Coopa826 wrote: The Zerg macro mechanic, you call it larvae system, does NOT allow macro mistakes. If you dont inject you have almost no units. Protoss can Chronoboost as many buildings as they want if they dont use chrono properly And i dont really have to talk about terran right? If they forget about their macro mechanic they get instantly rich by throwing 10 mules on one base or they have free detection and vision all over the map. Please never say zerg allows macro mistakes again -.- ' If you dont inject you have almost no units.' Yeah I play zerg, so I actually noticed that ... But even at my low level (plat) I'm okay with injects (relatively to my level), and I feel it's much easier for a zerg to inject regularly than for a terran to make units regularly from different kind of buildings. Yeah the zerg also has to make units ... from one control group of hatch ... not the hardest thing in the world I think. | ||
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Panthae
Canada205 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
TvP I feel like in this matchup, Protoss are super weak until they get Sentries then they become able to hold a lot of bio pushes. But it's when you see the colossus/storm mix that P turns from competing with Terran to overpowering them. Yes, Ghosts exist but they are pretty hard to control, especially when an Observer in the right place could easily deny any EMPs or Snipes headed towards your HTs. Additionally, the Snipe nerf has made chargelots harder to kill, as if they weren't hard enough to kill already. I mean a 150HP unit that is significantly more difficult to kite. I think the issue with Protoss in PvT is how overly powerful storm is. Then again, blame Blizzard more for this because they made a 55HP unit one of the terran's staple units whereas Protoss and Zerg have infantry units with much higher health. PvZ PvZ is complicated, but generally, Protoss doesn't have a whole lot that can let them deal with Brood Lords. Yes, they have air but those airborne units are very weak for their expense and often require a sweeping tech switch just to make it a game changer. For instance, the Phoenix, whilst costing 150 Minerals and 100 Gas is in reality kinda useless in the later game. Then there's the Void Ray, costing 250 Minerals and 150 Gas and often seen in cheese builds relying on the element of surprise to overwhelm your opponent. And then there's the Carrier and Mothership.... There's a reason why these units are rarely ever used... They're expensive, they take a long time to build and their effectiveness is questionable. Plus if the Protoss has air? Make more Corruptors. Not only does it let you keep air control but it lets you morph more Brood Lords later if you really want to. Yes, Stalkers can and have butchered Brood Lords before but who really wants to blink into a solid, biological wall of fungal growths, hydralisks and roaches anyway? ZvT Out of all the matchups, I feel ZvT is the most balanced right now. However, Tier 3 throws a lot of Terrans off guard and most of the things that would come from this tier are just ridficulously hard for Terran to deal with. You may remember a quote from Destiny saying "I only make Ultralisks when I'm really far ahead and want to lose", but in reality Stephano uses a lot of them in his play and somehow makes it succeed. Three ultras are very hard to deal with without like..... 10+ Marauders which you wouldn't even think of building in the mid game unless you scouted a mass roach strategy. They take up 2 supply instead of 1, attack slower than Terran units and their only forte is being able to pack a punch against armored units and slow anything non-Massive down. Now imagine a Zerg who went 12 Ultralisks and hits a timing where no marine tank medivac force could take it down? That's the ridiculousness of ZvT. Ghosts used to be the ideal late game unit because they could not only take down Brood Lords before they annihilate your army but could do the same towards Ultralisks, albeit needing more snipes. Now? Snipe feels a bit underpowered. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On March 18 2012 21:45 GreenFate wrote: ' If you dont inject you have almost no units.' Yeah I play zerg, so I actually noticed that ... But even at my low level (plat) I'm okay with injects (relatively to my level), and I feel it's much easier for a zerg to inject regularly than for a terran to make units regularly from different kind of buildings. Yeah the zerg also has to make units ... from one control group of hatch ... not the hardest thing in the world I think. To be fair you can have all production facilities for Terran on 1 control group too. I used to play Terran, its not hard to have your rax, factories, and ports in one group and just tab through it all. You can still watch the battlefield while doing that while as Zerg you have to flip your screen back to each hatchery to inject. Edit: Protoss also have to flip their screens to pylon power to put down gate units. With MULEs too, I think Terrans have more forgiving macro. Micro is where Terrans need to be strong. The risk is great but the reward for good micro is also huge | ||
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MakyIsME
France66 Posts
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ETisME
12364 Posts
Warp prism coupled with gateway mechanics have always been said to be unexplored and we are finally seeing how good it is now. I can't help but to think that it is going to be even strong when more synergies with strategy would be discovered | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On March 18 2012 22:20 MakyIsME wrote: fast expand in pvt gets cancelled 2 out of 3 time whereas never the other way arround. Terran is the best race to secure a late game plan because of bunker and auto repear. Protoss have just good cheeses. So yes Terran is still the strongest race. Terran late game plan? If you mean getting rolled by collosi-storm-chargelots, losing your entire army while taking out ~15 zealots and being unable to reproduce anything while warpgates replenish immediatly, then sure. | ||
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AveranceEU
Germany23 Posts
If you think your own race is severely underpowered and another one is particularly strong, just switch to the stronger one and show everybody how good you really are instead of whining. | ||
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hoburame
Netherlands48 Posts
I even think alot of GM can't as well because they just dont know how the other races work. But I will say one thing. Terran has a versatility that no other race has, can fake standard openings and do cheesy build instead. Also, terran is very cheese proof compared to other races. Protoss are realy streamlined in their openings, current metagame or not i dont know about it. Protoss do have the stronger kind of maxed army. But good usage of ghosts is possible to conter this. ( good ghosts usage require good templar usage to counter, but terran has the edge, or the easier way if you prefer, here since ghosts are cloaked units ) Protoss versus zerg is quite strange, early protoss is very streamlined as well, but has the lategame andvantage with the different casters. Zerg is realy hard to get, cheese from terran comes in various ways, heavy hellion, double proxy rax etc. very safe for terran as well but very dangerous for zerg if the correct response is not given in time. I do not think this is unbalanced but I do think, as a stategist, terran has a realy important edge that the other races dont have in the same, simple and efficient way. ps: talking players that are at an even level of mastering their respective race. | ||
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Amoment
Germany175 Posts
SINCE BETA Terran is OP | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On March 18 2012 21:45 GreenFate wrote: ' If you dont inject you have almost no units.' Yeah I play zerg, so I actually noticed that ... But even at my low level (plat) I'm okay with injects (relatively to my level), and I feel it's much easier for a zerg to inject regularly than for a terran to make units regularly from different kind of buildings. Yeah the zerg also has to make units ... from one control group of hatch ... not the hardest thing in the world I think. if you are plat and have no problem with injects I envy you. Im low/mid masters and away from the earlygame I have a really hard time timing injects on all hatcheries while other things are going on. During say an 6-7-8gate I find it terribly hard to keep the timings and lategame more or less all my queens end up with full energy. Ive laddered all races seperatly to diamond/master (toss was a long time ago though, before masterleague :p) and I must say that zergs macromechanic is probably least forgiving. This does in no way constitute imbalance though and I do in no way feel zerg is UP. | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On March 18 2012 22:02 Clbull wrote: In my opinion (and this is pure opinion, coming from a low levelled player so disregard it if you will), it depends on the matchup but. TvP I feel like in this matchup, Protoss are super weak until they get Sentries then they become able to hold a lot of bio pushes. But it's when you see the colossus/storm mix that P turns from competing with Terran to overpowering them. Yes, Ghosts exist but they are pretty hard to control, especially when an Observer in the right place could easily deny any EMPs or Snipes headed towards your HTs. Additionally, the Snipe nerf has made chargelots harder to kill, as if they weren't hard enough to kill already. I mean a 150HP unit that is significantly more difficult to kite. I think the issue with Protoss in PvT is how overly powerful storm is. Then again, blame Blizzard more for this because they made a 55HP unit one of the terran's staple units whereas Protoss and Zerg have infantry units with much higher health. PvZ PvZ is complicated, but generally, Protoss doesn't have a whole lot that can let them deal with Brood Lords. Yes, they have air but those airborne units are very weak for their expense and often require a sweeping tech switch just to make it a game changer. For instance, the Phoenix, whilst costing 150 Minerals and 100 Gas is in reality kinda useless in the later game. Then there's the Void Ray, costing 250 Minerals and 150 Gas and often seen in cheese builds relying on the element of surprise to overwhelm your opponent. And then there's the Carrier and Mothership.... There's a reason why these units are rarely ever used... They're expensive, they take a long time to build and their effectiveness is questionable. Plus if the Protoss has air? Make more Corruptors. Not only does it let you keep air control but it lets you morph more Brood Lords later if you really want to. Yes, Stalkers can and have butchered Brood Lords before but who really wants to blink into a solid, biological wall of fungal growths, hydralisks and roaches anyway? ZvT Out of all the matchups, I feel ZvT is the most balanced right now. However, Tier 3 throws a lot of Terrans off guard and most of the things that would come from this tier are just ridficulously hard for Terran to deal with. You may remember a quote from Destiny saying "I only make Ultralisks when I'm really far ahead and want to lose", but in reality Stephano uses a lot of them in his play and somehow makes it succeed. Three ultras are very hard to deal with without like..... 10+ Marauders which you wouldn't even think of building in the mid game unless you scouted a mass roach strategy. They take up 2 supply instead of 1, attack slower than Terran units and their only forte is being able to pack a punch against armored units and slow anything non-Massive down. Now imagine a Zerg who went 12 Ultralisks and hits a timing where no marine tank medivac force could take it down? That's the ridiculousness of ZvT. Ghosts used to be the ideal late game unit because they could not only take down Brood Lords before they annihilate your army but could do the same towards Ultralisks, albeit needing more snipes. Now? Snipe feels a bit underpowered. Mothership is hardly rarely used. It is the only real solution protoss has to a zerg BL, infestor etc ball.. and its a damn good solution. Id say ZvP is horribly zergfavoured lategame before the mothership (if the zerg has brood infestor that is) but turns around completly when the mothership arrives. Corruptors sure, they can kill a mothership but in all honesty the mothership is only there for one reason and thats a vortex. Unless you suicide 20corruptors alone into it you wont kill it without it getting an vortex of on the broods and the toilet has arrived. Ultras can be decent in ZvT but its mainly as a suprise. Its not really valid to keep going once scouted. The problem with the ZvT matchup lategame is that terrans dont really have any unit that works well when the zerg transitions between broods and ultras anymore. The ghost filled that role, maybe to well against BLs but still, it filled the role. Terran can still beat zerg superlategame definatly but its hard, harder then it is for the zerg (I play Z and T so this is from both perspectives...although its just my opinion) | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:27 MildSeven wrote: Protoss is unbelievably strong at the moment, and they've only just started learning how to use their full arsenal effectively. What parts of the Protoss arsenal remain unexplored, in your opinion? | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 18 2012 18:36 aicaramba wrote: And how do you know its not race mechanics/units that allows for better multitasking? How do you know its not the units that 'allow' for better control? Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many. | ||
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ray ragnarok
United States1 Post
and before you go "but Stephano claims P is super under powered vs Z" he doesnt understand balance, what would the best foreign zerg know about the balance of the game! nothing. and even if he did he is clearly bias to P. | ||
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aicaramba
Netherlands110 Posts
On March 19 2012 01:19 Pokebunny wrote: Because you watch the games, and see 10 korean terrans playing top level play while only a handful of z/p players can match them. They can and have been matched by other races, just not by many. Just to be clear. Im not stating terran is the strongest race. I actually think its pretty balanced right now. The top korean terrans are being most consistant and in most numbers. But I have yet to see any good explanation that the terrans dominating is due to better players rather then being due to the race they play. Your statement can be used to proof terran is a stronger race just as easily/poorly as stating they are better players. | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
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taitanik
Latvia231 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 19 2012 03:47 aicaramba wrote: Just to be clear. Im not stating terran is the strongest race. I actually think its pretty balanced right now. The top korean terrans are being most consistant and in most numbers. But I have yet to see any good explanation that the terrans dominating is due to better players rather then being due to the race they play. Your statement can be used to proof terran is a stronger race just as easily/poorly as stating they are better players. It's not a statistical explanation, it's a conclusion you come to by watching the games and playing at a high level... | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
1) Warp-ins means distance doesn't affect Protoss, whereas it makes the other races reinforce slower 2) Protoss are strongest in late-game, bigger maps = harder to rush = longer games | ||
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aicaramba
Netherlands110 Posts
On March 19 2012 05:26 Pokebunny wrote: It's not a statistical explanation, it's a conclusion you come to by watching the games and playing at a high level... Thats actually the best explanation I can think of, but it just doesnt convince me 100%. However you word counts a lot more then mine | ||
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GodOfWar
870 Posts
Poll confirms, Game is balanced | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
I only remain Terran because of my Terran pride, even as I have hit top 3 master with both of the other races. If we get nerfed again though, I will switch permanently as I know I can do as well as or better with another race. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Because let's face it, what's overpowered in one league is certainly not overpowered in another, it may just require micro or apm that someone in the lower league may not possess. | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
Because let's face it, what's overpowered in one league is certainly not overpowered in another, it may just require micro or apm that someone in the lower league may not possess. However, it can't be that only the 5 top korean can play terran and the rest of the world has to go with zerg and toss. Not even Kas or Beastyqt have an answer against toss at the moment. All weekly EU tournaments are dominated by protoss. In EU-GM terran has dropped down under 25% while 45% are protoss player and if you look at the leagues below GM its getting much more worse. In low master and high diamond terran is nearly not existent anymore. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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Xialos
Canada508 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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DemonicTaco
United States5 Posts
The races are all REALLY even. Let me summarize 99% of the posts here: Protoss is imba PvT:
Protoss is imba PvZ:
Let's start with zerg. Zergs, for a LONG time, have been playing the exact same way against protoss. Every zerg needs to watch stephano. Being a Protoss player, I would just insta-gg against stephano simply because I can not figure out how to beat his playstyle. Stephano says that Zerg is very, very favored ZvP. Protoss has very little deviation of openings. Protoss has the WEAKEST early game. Don't even argue, it's fact, that's how the race was designed. Stephano get's like, 4 bases REALLY quickly. He says that protoss simply can't stop him, and, if you watch his stream, he proves it. Zerg players need to learn to INNOVATE instead of trying to win with pure brute force, which is like 99% of zergs (especially pros, the ones we get inspiration from). PvT: Terran has so many options. Their units, while costing very little, are so very cost-effective. Terran as a race is so flexible and super hard to predict. Protoss is the most linear race, which is why it's the easiest to learn. It's also the easiest to predict. On the actual topic: I think all the races are really, really even. However, if I HAD to pick a race that had a slight advantage, I would pick Zerg. Stephano is showing everyone that no one knows how to actually play zerg properly. Watching him scares me. | ||
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covote
United States86 Posts
I hate playing with them but feel i kind of have to sometimes. the problem with protoss is that gateway units just plain suck (cost efficiency). That means toss AOE has to be powerful just to compete. I wish they would buff gateway units, nerf AOE and warpgate tech. | ||
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blue1008
Canada1 Post
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Slarkle
Australia2 Posts
On March 14 2012 12:50 Danger Boy wrote: Terran have to do to much to be effective, Protoss have little unit control to worry about... I disagree, a win or lose for protoss can often come down to 1 or 2 forcefields, making protoss micro extremely important. I also find it really amusing when Ts complain about 1a(ing) Protosses as if pressing click, s, click s with their ball of M&M makes them the authority on all things micro. I played a game recently where an opponent advised me of my disadvantageous heritage on my mothers side, advised me that I was a cleaner of some sort, and that I merely 1a(ed) to victory. I hope he watched the reply to find that I had multiple observers in position, waited til he was unseiged (to take his 3rd), proceeded to run all zealots into his marine ball, focus down all his tanks with my immortals, target down his medvacs with the stalkers while simultaneously dropping 4 zealots in his main. But he is probably right. All Protoss does is 1A. | ||
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
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RiPPy
Norway23 Posts
Toss is......... dunno where to begin. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On March 19 2012 15:55 RiPPy wrote: Roughly 15.000 has voted Terran or Zerg. Which means almost 15.000 people not in touch with reality. No wonder there is war in the world when people cant even agree on the obvious. Toss is......... dunno where to begin. Yeah, real weird that all people dont agree that the race that has byfar the least high level tournament resoults is strongest. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
Again, I'm not even a masters player yet so I'm really just venting and throwing my thoughts out there. IMO zerg simply needs another late game option in ZvP (crossing my fingers for ultras to be worth making one day). It seems to me that you have to go corruptor/BL to beat the colossus deathball (other than muta), but there's no real answer if they go for the archon toilet. I gave up on mutas in ZvP a few months ago because I couldn't seem to make it work generally, but I might switch back to that in order to go for base trades instead. Honestly I'm usually happy to get hit with a timing attack (typically against my third) because at least there are reliable ways to hold that. If I screw up defending my third, I have a very solid idea of how/why I lost. It's sad to be an aspiring macro zerg but dread the late game =/ The only thing that I actually like about ZvP is that the metagame right now lets you get a fast third in response to FFE in almost every game. It's great that the metagame has gotten to a point where you can get a third going before 26 food, although not being able to go hatch first is pretty annoying. Especially because the main worry is that Protoss will beat you with buildings, which I don't think is really a good thing for SC2--early pressure is entertaining because of the intense micro (ofc, if you only have a few units, losing just one of them can be a huge deal) but you can't micro buildings. It's not that I think it's imba, because there are ways to prevent it and I actually don't die to this stuff anymore because I use the overpool build (18 hatch variant). It's also not that I have a problem with being obligated to defend my FEs, I don't have any complaints against bunker rushes (and again I find these entirely beatable, as have most Zergs lately). I would just prefer that early pressure be unit-based because I think that makes for better, more interesting games as a player and spectator. Going back to the late game, one thing that has become effective for me is baneling dropping mineral patches once they get on 3+ bases. If you do a little distraction, usually works like a charm. The other thing that helps is that I never use banelings for any other reason in ZvP (for example, trying to carpet bomb their main army), so they usually aren't expecting the bane drops. I also don't show drop tech/ovie speed until I'm using it on their workers. If I can get that to work, then I can usually win just based on my economic lead after killing ~20 probes, such that I don't have to worry as much about trading efficiently. | ||
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Fizzy
Sweden388 Posts
Grandmaster average: P (58.0% win) T (60.4% win) Z (58.0% win) - Terran is strongest Master average: P (51.4% win) T (51.3% win) Z (51.2% win) - Protoss is strongest Unfortionatly you cant see win percentage below masters since the ladders doesnt show amount of losses from diamond and down. Diamond average: P (208 points) T (210 points) Z (209 points) - Terran is strongest Platinum average: P (168 points) T (164 poitns) Z (177 points) - Zerg is strongest Gold average: P (151 points) T (147 points) Z (166 points) - Zerg is strongest Silver average: P (156 points) T (149 points) Z (170 points) - Zerg is strongest Bronze average: P (174 points) T (166 points) Z (181 points) - Zerg is strongest Total of Protoss being stronger in 1 league, Terran in 2 and Zerg in 4. Zerg dominating the 4 lowest leagues and terran leading 2 of the top 3. You might think these statistics doesnt show much since there is different race distribution making some races get more wins or more points.. atleast so i thought but then i noticed that: - Protoss has the most players in Grandmaster but not the highest win% - Zerg has way more players than Terran in Master but still 1% less wins - Zerg has the most players in Diamond but Terran has higher average points - Protoss has 140k more players than Zerg and Terran has 60k more players than Zerg in Silver, but still Zerg has way more average points - Terran has almost double the amount of Zerg players and Protoss has 1/3 more players than Zerg in Bronze and still Zerg has way more average points With this said i would like to point out the following flaws in earlier statements: - Zerg is not harder than any other race since its obviously the best race in all low-skill leagues. - Protoss is not more imba than Zerg and Terran in higher skilled games since they share the same win percentage as Zerg and has less than Terran in the GM league. source: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all To further elaborate on my last statement - here are some more facts: - Protoss has 2 gold medals, 2 silver medals and 7 3-4place medals in GSL - Zerg has 5 gold medals, 2 silver medals and 3 3-4place medals in GSL - Terran has 6 gold medals, 8 silvermedals and 17 3-4place medals in GSL - Terran is the only race to have a mirror match in a GSL final - Zerg is the only race not to have more than 1 player in top 4... ever - Terran has always had the most players in code S - PvT stats were 172-230 in favor of Terran in GSL at 8/12/11 (has not been updated since then) - PvZ stats were 123-131 in favor of Zerg in GSL at 8/12/11 (has not been updated since then) - TvZ stats were 214-211 in favor of Terran in GSL at 8/12/11 (has not been updated since then) Sources: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League , http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League/Statistics And now everyone thinks that "hey the poll is about what race is most imba at the moment"... well look at these results of 2012 major tournaments: - Lone Star Clash - Winner: Stephano (Z), Runner-up: Polt (T) - FXOpen Invitational Series #5 - Winner: DongRaeGu (Z), Runner-up: MarineKing (T) - The SHOUTcraft Invitational #4 - Winner: Stephano (Z), Runner-up: Thorzain (T) - AoL: The King of Kongs - WInner: DongRaeGu (Z), Runner-up LosirA (Z) - IEM Season VI World Championship - Winner: MC (P), Runner-up Puma (T) - MLG Winter Arena - Winner: MarineKing (T), Runner-up: DongRaeGu (Z) - Assembly Winter - Winner: Polt (T), Runner-up: Stephano (Z) - IEM Season VI Global Challenge Sao Paolo - Winner: viOLet (Z), Runner-up: SuperNoVa (T) - IEM Season VI Global Challenge Kiev - Winner: MMA (T), Runner-up: DIMAGA (Z) - 2012 GSL Season 1 - Winner: DongRaeGu (Z), Runner-up: Genius (P) - HomeStory Cup IV - Winner: MC (P), Runner-up: Sound (T) Which puts us at: - Zerg has 6 wins and 4 second places in major events so far in 2012 - Terran has 3 wins and 6 second places in major events so far in 2012 - Protoss has 2 wins and 1 second place in major events so far in 2012 Sources: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments , http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments ----- Anyhow statistics are just statistics and there are lots of variables which cant be included in calculations.. such as which race has the most skilled players, which race practises the most etc. - all i wanted to do was put some stats out there to make you think twice before you state such things as "zerg is the hardest race to play" or "ofc protoss is gonna be voted highest since they have the most players." But i decided to vote for Zerg as the strongest race atm since i hate playing against them on the ladder, they win the most tournaments right now and seem to be the easiest race to play atm since they dominate all low-leagues. | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On March 19 2012 16:54 Sea_Food wrote: Yeah, real weird that all people dont agree that the race that has byfar the least high level tournament resoults is strongest. You are talking results inside Korea. Outside Korea the picture is different | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On March 19 2012 17:41 Fizzy wrote: - Terran is the only race to have a mirror match in a GSL final Wrong . Losira vs Nestea | ||
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ReboundEU
508 Posts
............................these are interesting numbers :D | ||
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LiteCore
Canada21 Posts
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JazzNL
182 Posts
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porsh0
1 Post
Terran had been nerfed so many times while protoss got cruical buff with cheaper upgrades which are now IMHO scaling PvT in P favor. On the other hand Protoss hasnt won GSL in a year now, how come they are strongest? Thats nonsense. P may be favored in PvT, while in PvZ, Zerg is obviusly stronger race from statistics. Zerg > Protoss. TvZ- no comment. | ||
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
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VanBuKK
Germany6 Posts
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
On March 19 2012 21:27 VanBuKK wrote: lol guys, its Starcraft....dont talk about micro because,,,,no micro needed in this game ;D Whut lol | ||
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VanBuKK
Germany6 Posts
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Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
On March 19 2012 17:41 Fizzy wrote: - Terran is the only race to have a mirror match in a GSL final - Zerg is the only race not to have more than 1 player in top 4... ever ZvZ finals in GSL July, invalidating these two points. Of course, that was because most of the Terrans were off elsewhere tearing everything up. | ||
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RaiD.RaynoR
United States294 Posts
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Jealous
10116 Posts
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Jealous
10116 Posts
On March 15 2012 08:34 NotTheMonker wrote: Is this poll about SC2 or Brood War? I think Terran has been strong for a while in Brood War, but Protoss seems the best right now in SC2. Don't be silly hahahaha ;; | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
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Paulio
Netherlands60 Posts
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tyler233
United States8 Posts
T>Z Z>P P>T | ||
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ConRa
Sweden42 Posts
On March 20 2012 01:29 tyler233 wrote: I think it is a triangle. The differences in balance are small and can be overcome easily but none the less i think T>Z Z>P P>T I do not agree to your TvZ statement. I think the most balanced matchup atm. is Terran vs. Zerg, I would not give the edge to Terran at all(or Zerg). Right now I'm feeling too that Protoss is slightly stronger vs. Terran. I also think Zerg is abit ahead vs Protoss. But in general I think the game is pretty balanced but not perfect. I read the overall winrate for february 2012 and it was 50%~ Z, 50%~ P and 45%~ T, so I guess Terran atleast have gotten abit weaker. | ||
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Stiedos
United States1 Post
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Fizzy
Sweden388 Posts
- protoss being way easier than zerg at lower skills - protoss being stronger at pro level - more people playing zerg than protoss busted. All i have to say is that in the lowest of low leagues, zerg has half the amount of players compared to protoss but still average about 20 more points in the league, they also lead silver, gold and platinum where they are at a player disadvantage. AND since the ghost nerf (where terrans cant wtfpwn zergs in lategame) the tide has changed from terrans winning almost all tournaments, to zerg winning almost half and terrans winning almost half. | ||
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Hilo
Estonia114 Posts
On March 20 2012 05:50 Fizzy wrote: Ok im sorry, i made a misstake, only protoss have never had a mirror matchup in GSL. Which only proves my point even further, all this talk about - protoss being way easier than zerg at lower skills - protoss being stronger at pro level - more people playing zerg than protoss busted. All i have to say is that in the lowest of low leagues, zerg has half the amount of players compared to protoss but still average about 20 more points in the league, they also lead silver, gold and platinum where they are at a player disadvantage. AND since the ghost nerf (where terrans cant wtfpwn zergs in lategame) the tide has changed from terrans winning almost all tournaments, to zerg winning almost half and terrans winning almost half. Game has to be balanced on pro level , terran is hardest in lower leagues and as Stephano said : "You can make only one build vs protoss and it always works" | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Protoss is the most linear race, which is why it's the easiest to learn. It's also the easiest to predict. Actually, you can't make sweeping generalizations like this. As a Top master Terran player (also as Protoss), I find Protoss to be much more unpredictable at certain points at the game. If you failed to sneak an scv out before that first stalker contain, you may well be in the dark lest you waste a scan on the Protoss natural. And even then, you still won't know the Protoss tech path, gas values, etc. | ||
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Thomassn
Netherlands12 Posts
On March 18 2012 06:44 ig0tfish wrote: Yeah I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that. Call it all you want I don't care what you think I know the truth | ||
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Dumbtruck
56 Posts
On March 21 2012 02:03 Thomassn wrote: Call it all you want I don't care what you think I know the truth You know you're a bad player. Don't blame the game if you lose because of your mistakes. | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
It's possible T and Z just need to adapt and learn additional timmings, but I think blizz might of overcorrected. Toss didn't need a big buff in the 1st place- giving them a massive one was a mistake imho- but again it may be a little to early to call at this point. | ||
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mRpolite
189 Posts
On March 19 2012 18:40 Chr15t wrote: You are talking results inside Korea. Outside Korea the picture is different who cares what happens outside of korea? thats like saying the usa has the weakest army and armament just because they are not here or the nba sucks cause they dont play in europe korean results are the only ones that matter | ||
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