|
On July 06 2010 20:45 HnR)hT wrote: Today's results help Plexa's cause a lot I woudl say. Not at all. Jaedong lost a ZvP vs one of the greatest PvZérs ever, even if Bisu was slumping lately, he's still better then Ruby. And he lost a ZvZ, which is the most volatile matchup in the game. I think it proves absolutely nothing.
|
Saying that Flash caused his team to miss the playoffs last year is like saying Jaedong caused his team to miss the playoffs this year which is utter rubbish.
I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true.
|
On July 06 2010 20:50 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:45 HnR)hT wrote: Today's results help Plexa's cause a lot I woudl say. Not at all. Jaedong lost a ZvP vs one of the greatest PvZérs ever, even if Bisu was slumping lately, he's still better then Ruby. And he lost a ZvZ, which is the most volatile matchup in the game. I think it proves absolutely nothing.
Well, Flash did win a TvT again finally, against ...KHAN's 2nd-best (I'm guessing) Terran.
So yeah.
|
Rofl, Flash wasn't losing all his TvTs, just his TvT aces. Generally he won a TvT vs the person he lost to in ace. That said it's a dominant win for flash and two tough losses for Jaedong.
Also screw off to anyone who thinks Jaedong "cost" Oz a playoff spot. Blame Killer for his performance overall for that one, not just Jaedong fumbling at the final stretch. You'd pass out too if you had to run a Marathon carrying three other people on your back. Same stupid argument to Flash's losses to STX last season, still stupid.
|
On July 06 2010 21:22 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:50 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On July 06 2010 20:45 HnR)hT wrote: Today's results help Plexa's cause a lot I woudl say. Not at all. Jaedong lost a ZvP vs one of the greatest PvZérs ever, even if Bisu was slumping lately, he's still better then Ruby. And he lost a ZvZ, which is the most volatile matchup in the game. I think it proves absolutely nothing. Well, Flash did win a TvT again finally, against ...KHAN's 2nd-best (I'm guessing) Terran. So yeah. Flash has been winning most non-ace TvT. He would've lost the rematch
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player.
IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped.
The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.
|
On July 06 2010 20:45 HnR)hT wrote: Today's results help Plexa's cause a lot I woudl say. Um excuse me, but why? lol What happened today doesn't effect LAST MONTHS PR.
|
On July 06 2010 21:42 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true  . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player. IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped. The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.  Alright, so we should actually go back and change the RPs in the middle of the month because of all this new information to take in to account then?
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On July 06 2010 22:15 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 21:42 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true  . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player. IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped. The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.  Alright, so we should actually go back and change the RPs in the middle of the month because of all this new information to take in to account then? WTF? How did you draw that conclusion from what I have written?
|
On July 06 2010 22:16 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 22:15 khellian wrote:On July 06 2010 21:42 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true  . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player. IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped. The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.  Alright, so we should actually go back and change the RPs in the middle of the month because of all this new information to take in to account then? WTF? How did you draw that conclusion from what I have written? Ok, se we agree that it should not affect last months PR and have nothing to do with it?
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On July 06 2010 22:27 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 22:16 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 22:15 khellian wrote:On July 06 2010 21:42 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true  . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player. IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped. The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.  Alright, so we should actually go back and change the RPs in the middle of the month because of all this new information to take in to account then? WTF? How did you draw that conclusion from what I have written? Ok, se we agree that it should not affect last months PR and have nothing to do with it? It is obvious and trivial (and I can' believe I have to say it) that the PR doesn't have to be rewritten with each new result, but that doesn't stop a past, and especially a recent PR, from being viewed in light of games that took place afterward.
|
On July 06 2010 22:33 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 22:27 khellian wrote:On July 06 2010 22:16 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 22:15 khellian wrote:On July 06 2010 21:42 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 20:52 revy wrote: I don't know about the whole "results after the PR is released can validate it" idea, I don't really like it. The PR isn't written to predict the future, it's more a statement of who would win in an impromptu BO5. Now sometimes these two things can align, but one being true does not necessarily imply the other is true. You may not like the idea, but it's true  . It's not out of the ordinary for subsequent information to shed light on past events or to necessitate a reassessment of past judgements or predictions. Whether the PR is "written to predict the future" has nothing to do with it. With only a few days having passed between now and when the PR was submitted, it can't really be argued that Jaedong has gotten worse and that he's no longer the same player. IMO (and this point may be debatable, but to me seems obvious) the purpose of the PR is to rank according to who is the better player right now, given all available evidence. If you accept this, then the results of games played 5 days before the PR have approximately the same relevance as games played 5 days after the PR. The only reason that the latter evidence is not used is because it is impossible to know the future. This seems counterintuitive, but it's a simple point once grasped. The only way you can logically disagree with the above is if you have a different conception of what the PR should be about. For example, some may think that the PR should judge who has been the best player last month, instead of who is the best player now given evidence mostly from last month. But I believe that if you think about it, that idea is just silly.  Alright, so we should actually go back and change the RPs in the middle of the month because of all this new information to take in to account then? WTF? How did you draw that conclusion from what I have written? Ok, se we agree that it should not affect last months PR and have nothing to do with it? It is obvious and trivial (and I can' believe I have to say it) that the PR doesn't have to be rewritten with each new result, but that doesn't stop a past, and especially a recent PR, from being viewed in light of games that took place afterward. You dont have to be condesending to get a point across. I still dont agree with results this month validating last months PR.
|
It's kind of silly to say it's completely negligible, though. The PR posited that Flash is still ahead of Jaedong, despite a worse record, and future events have thusfar helped a little in showing that.
|
On July 06 2010 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to say it's completely negligible, though. The PR posited that Flash is still ahead of Jaedong, despite a worse record, and future events have thusfar helped a little in showing that. I haven't said it's completly negligible, but I dont think it validate it either. What if it was the other way around, Jaedong won two games today and Flash lost. Would that change anything? I don't think so, because it will be taken into account on the next PR, it doesn't change the last. I guess we have to agree to disagree (no matter what players we are talking about).
|
Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months.
|
On July 06 2010 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months. Why would it do that? Clearly in this case it was felt that Jaedong was the better player LAST month. Him losing THIS month doesn't change what he did last month. I just don't agree. I will drop this now.
|
United States10328 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:25 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months. Why would it do that? Clearly in this case it was felt that Jaedong was the better player LAST month. Him losing THIS month doesn't change what he did last month. I just don't agree. I will drop this now.
I think there's a difference of opinion here. Some people view it as a power rank "for last month," while some view it as a power rank for "now." You're thinking of it as the former; they're thinking of it as the latter, and that means games after the PR can "validate" who is the stronger player right now as opposed to last month.
Nothing to argue about
|
On July 06 2010 23:25 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months. Why would it do that? Clearly in this case it was felt that Jaedong was the better player LAST month. Him losing THIS month doesn't change what he did last month. I just don't agree. I will drop this now.
You seem to be misinterpreting me. I'm not saying that anyone's wrong to say that Jaedong should've been 1st last month. It was very controversial, but Plexa made a call. That call, if it is a good one, will carry through until next month changes things. It's okay to still think that Jaedong should've been #1, but if Jaedong goes on a 10 game losing streak this month while Flash crushes everyone (not likely), it does look kindly on the rank for making a controversial call in the right direction.
|
On July 06 2010 23:25 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months. Why would it do that? Clearly in this case it was felt that Jaedong was the better player LAST month. Him losing THIS month doesn't change what he did last month. I just don't agree. I will drop this now.
I don't believe that PR tells you who was the "better" player last month. It tells you, AT THE TIME OF THE WRITING of the PR, who (in authors own opinion) is the strongest (most powerful) player in the world. It is called monthly PR because it comes out once in a month, not because it takes just the last month into consideration. Sure the last month statistics are taken into consideration. Usually the month before that is also taken into consideration (with less significance possibly). Also special events are given additional importance, like last played OSL, MSL and WL or PL finals. Pure statistics never was and never should be the only factor for creating the PR cause then you wouldn't need the the PR.
|
On July 06 2010 23:49 nimoraca wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:25 khellian wrote:On July 06 2010 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: Obviously it can't have a retroactive effect, but it's ridiculous to say it doesn't help validate something controversial. Say Flash and Jaedong have a close month and Plexa puts Jaedong at #1 and Flash at #2, and then in the next week Flash beats Jaedong in a series -- this reflects poorly on his decision to state that Jaedong was ahead of Flash.
The rank is up on the site for an entire month before it can be changed, it has to have a sort of longevity between the months. Why would it do that? Clearly in this case it was felt that Jaedong was the better player LAST month. Him losing THIS month doesn't change what he did last month. I just don't agree. I will drop this now. I don't believe that PR tells you who was the "better" player last month. It tells you, AT THE TIME OF THE WRITING of the PR, who (in authors own opinion) is the strongest (most powerful) player in the world. It is called monthly PR because it comes out once in a month, not because it takes just the last month into consideration. Sure the last month statistics are taken into consideration. Usually the month before that is also taken into consideration (with less significance possibly). Also special events are given additional importance, like last played OSL, MSL and WL or PL finals. Pure statistics never was and never should be the only factor for creating the PR cause then you wouldn't need the the PR. Exactly, if one player has worse record than the other during the month, that doesn't mean he is the worse player.
|
|
|
|