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Power Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 27

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
July 07 2010 02:42 GMT
#521
I'm not entirely sure why some people think that the PR should be some sort of monthly MVP ranking, if that's what it was supposed to be then that is probably what it would be called (i.e. a ranking of how players did in the last month). It is, however, called the power rank, and as such implies that it represents the players that the writer of the rank feels are the most powerful right now. The very definition of a powerful player is one that you would expect to win games against even the toughest opposition, hence future results very much validate (or make mockery of) what has been written in a power rank.

In fact I think that the most important job of the power rank writer is to look at the results of the month and decide which players looked like they were genuinely good (or bad), and which players simply had a good (or bad) streak and you would expect to going back to their old ways soon. I've never been a fan of giving streaky players high spots in the rank for having a good month (like ZerO, when he was placed above Jaedong) when you just know that they will go back to playing mediocre in the next month. Similarly, one bad month isn't enough to convince me that Flash isn't still the player to beat and a favourite against anyone (and I'm a pretty big Flash antifan / Jaedong fan). Of course by similar token I think that putting EffOrt above Jaedong was hilariously bad last month.
Creator of LoLTool.
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
July 07 2010 10:32 GMT
#522
On July 06 2010 04:37 zer0das wrote:
I don't have the internet at my home for the next few days, because I'm moving. I've taken this as an opportunity to watch old VODs I downloaded back in the days of yore where you couldn't find every game on youtube. While I think Plexa's reasoning is terrible, I still think he got Flash on top right.

Here's why: back in the days of Etter being the king, Bisu sat on top for 6 power ranks (and another FakeSteve one). And here's the thing- he was complete and utter trash in proleague. I have VODs of him losing to ChRh and Boxer in absolutely depressing fashion, almost single handily causing MBC to lose the match. And this was the norm! And yet he was still on top of the pile.

And you want to know why? Starleagues! No one had the potential to plow his way through the competition like Bisu, even if he was complete garbage in proleague. I'm not exactly sure at what point people started to put so much weight on proleague, but quite frankly Flash just won a MSL gold and an OSL silver, and Jaedong was not the reason he got the OSL silver- in fact, Jaedong just got 3-0ed by him. Yeah, okay, Flash lost to Effort in the MSL group stage. He's been kind of sketchy in proleague. But you know what? He just came off being in both finals back to back, and there's really no good reason to believe he won't do it again, aside from the fact that he'd have to be a freak to do it. But that's pretty much what he is.


People started putting more weight on proleague when the players themselves started putting more weight on proleague.

On July 07 2010 07:21 Plexa wrote:
The thing 90% of the people complaining about this ranking don't get is that the PR tries to look beyond the simple statistic. You can't accurately gauge the performance of a player by his record. The PR is meant to reward players who play good starcraft in the previous month (or two if necessary) and try to give you an accurate gauge of who is the best starcraft player at the moment. In other words, if you were a betting man - which players would you want to put your money on. Despite how well Jaedong played in June and how mediocre Flash's record, the statistics were deceptive.


Necessary to keep a zerg/jaedong out of the first place amirite?
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4732 Posts
July 07 2010 10:38 GMT
#523
On July 07 2010 08:38 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 07:22 Malinor wrote:
Yeah, he is not entitled to have a opinion, write 475 one-liners first, then comeback.

And a big huge capslock LOL @
Plexa
His losses last night do not surprise me in the least.

Care to elaborate on your reasons for that statement? Because I cannot remember when Jaedong has ever lost 2 games in one PL-match. And he has been under pressure a hundred times before. So your reason cannot be history, it cannot really be pressure (at least I would disagree completely) and it cannot be his lackluster play, after convincingly going 8-1 last month.

When you are writing stuff like that without anything to back it up, you just discredit yourself.
PL is a fickle beast, anyone - and I mean anyone - can lose 1-2 games in a night. If you look at it completely from a statistics point of view - even if you have an 80% winrate there is a small chance you can lose twice. It happens.


Yeah, of course you are right about PL. Still finding it strange that it doesn't surprise you at all, because it happens so rarely to Flash and JD, like once a year.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 07 2010 10:54 GMT
#524
I don't at all think the players put more weight on Proleague than individual league games, except for maybe the Proleague finals. Especially not now that palyers don't know who they are facing. But even before, where was it that players would do their match fixing? Starleague or Proleague?

Also, to Goragoth: I don't at all think that Zero is a streaky player. His ZvT and ZvP have consistently been among the best for over a year now. He's #2 in both ZvT and ZvP ELO for a reason. What kills him is his ZvZ, 10-15 so far this year. Terrible compared with his 13-6 ZvT record and 13-3 ZvP record. (I'm just using the start of 2010 as a reference point to get a large enough sample to be meaningful -- in point of fact, Zero's ZvZ seemed to be steadily declining until very recently).
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
dogabutila
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1437 Posts
July 07 2010 11:27 GMT
#525
I don't know that the players place more weight on proleague then individual leagues. However, players do certainly place more import on proleague now then they used to. Winning proleague now is certainly more prestigious then it was before and that is all I ever claimed. Not at all that proleague is more prestigious then individual leagues are.
Baller Fanclub || CheAse Fanclub || Scarlett Fanclub || LJD FIGHTING!
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-07 13:07:37
July 07 2010 13:03 GMT
#526
On July 07 2010 19:54 Mortality wrote:
I don't at all think the players put more weight on Proleague than individual league games, except for maybe the Proleague finals. Especially not now that palyers don't know who they are facing. But even before, where was it that players would do their match fixing? Starleague or Proleague?

Also, to Goragoth: I don't at all think that Zero is a streaky player. His ZvT and ZvP have consistently been among the best for over a year now. He's #2 in both ZvT and ZvP ELO for a reason. What kills him is his ZvZ, 10-15 so far this year. Terrible compared with his 13-6 ZvT record and 13-3 ZvP record. (I'm just using the start of 2010 as a reference point to get a large enough sample to be meaningful -- in point of fact, Zero's ZvZ seemed to be steadily declining until very recently).


Yes they do. Players routinely say they practice more for proleague than individual leagues in their interviews. Proleague has become much more important to players because the team aspect has become much more important. Player contracts are even setup now to reward players who perform well with bonuses and PL weights a lot more heavily when deciding whether to extend contracts and increase salaries. JWD admitted as such in the August 09 ranking with the words:

"Now blatantly obvious: Proleague has usurped the OSL's position as StarCraft's most prestigious contest. The 08-09 PL's massive season and suitably epic new playoff format have garnered an unprecedented level of attention from from fans, media, sponsors, coaches, and players; the Power Rank ought follow suit. Individual league best-ofs can no longer be the litmus test for PR placement. Even ignoring his OSL and MSL victories but considering his loss in GOM, Jaedong deserves this rank's top spot for carrying Hwaseung with two crucial single-set wins on BW's new biggest stage."
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 07 2010 13:39 GMT
#527
On July 07 2010 22:03 setzer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 19:54 Mortality wrote:
I don't at all think the players put more weight on Proleague than individual league games, except for maybe the Proleague finals. Especially not now that palyers don't know who they are facing. But even before, where was it that players would do their match fixing? Starleague or Proleague?

Also, to Goragoth: I don't at all think that Zero is a streaky player. His ZvT and ZvP have consistently been among the best for over a year now. He's #2 in both ZvT and ZvP ELO for a reason. What kills him is his ZvZ, 10-15 so far this year. Terrible compared with his 13-6 ZvT record and 13-3 ZvP record. (I'm just using the start of 2010 as a reference point to get a large enough sample to be meaningful -- in point of fact, Zero's ZvZ seemed to be steadily declining until very recently).


Yes they do. Players routinely say they practice more for proleague than individual leagues in their interviews. Proleague has become much more important to players because the team aspect has become much more important. Player contracts are even setup now to reward players who perform well with bonuses and PL weights a lot more heavily when deciding whether to extend contracts and increase salaries. JWD admitted as such in the August 09 ranking with the words:

"Now blatantly obvious: Proleague has usurped the OSL's position as StarCraft's most prestigious contest. The 08-09 PL's massive season and suitably epic new playoff format have garnered an unprecedented level of attention from from fans, media, sponsors, coaches, and players; the Power Rank ought follow suit. Individual league best-ofs can no longer be the litmus test for PR placement. Even ignoring his OSL and MSL victories but considering his loss in GOM, Jaedong deserves this rank's top spot for carrying Hwaseung with two crucial single-set wins on BW's new biggest stage."


Quote taken out of context alert.

You forget that August 2009 was when the Proleague Grand Finals were taking place. Kind of a different story than a regular PL game. The Proleague Grand Finals is the most prestigious stage in Starcraft. Random PL matches, however, mean absolute shit compared to SL matches.

And when it comes to contracts, the biggest contracts are held by players who have won Starleagues.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
July 07 2010 13:47 GMT
#528
On July 07 2010 22:39 Mortality wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 22:03 setzer wrote:
On July 07 2010 19:54 Mortality wrote:
I don't at all think the players put more weight on Proleague than individual league games, except for maybe the Proleague finals. Especially not now that palyers don't know who they are facing. But even before, where was it that players would do their match fixing? Starleague or Proleague?

Also, to Goragoth: I don't at all think that Zero is a streaky player. His ZvT and ZvP have consistently been among the best for over a year now. He's #2 in both ZvT and ZvP ELO for a reason. What kills him is his ZvZ, 10-15 so far this year. Terrible compared with his 13-6 ZvT record and 13-3 ZvP record. (I'm just using the start of 2010 as a reference point to get a large enough sample to be meaningful -- in point of fact, Zero's ZvZ seemed to be steadily declining until very recently).


Yes they do. Players routinely say they practice more for proleague than individual leagues in their interviews. Proleague has become much more important to players because the team aspect has become much more important. Player contracts are even setup now to reward players who perform well with bonuses and PL weights a lot more heavily when deciding whether to extend contracts and increase salaries. JWD admitted as such in the August 09 ranking with the words:

"Now blatantly obvious: Proleague has usurped the OSL's position as StarCraft's most prestigious contest. The 08-09 PL's massive season and suitably epic new playoff format have garnered an unprecedented level of attention from from fans, media, sponsors, coaches, and players; the Power Rank ought follow suit. Individual league best-ofs can no longer be the litmus test for PR placement. Even ignoring his OSL and MSL victories but considering his loss in GOM, Jaedong deserves this rank's top spot for carrying Hwaseung with two crucial single-set wins on BW's new biggest stage."


Quote taken out of context alert.

You forget that August 2009 was when the Proleague Grand Finals were taking place. Kind of a different story than a regular PL game. The Proleague Grand Finals is the most prestigious stage in Starcraft. Random PL matches, however, mean absolute shit compared to SL matches.

And when it comes to contracts, the biggest contracts are held by players who have won Starleagues.


And coincidentally those players just happen to perform really well in PL too. And just because that was posted during the 09 playoffs does not mean it is not true for all of proleague. Most players know they have little to no chance of ever winning a SL. Getting onto the a-team and being fielded for proleague is to many more important than making the ro32 of the OSL. I think you are looking at this too narrowly.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
July 07 2010 14:24 GMT
#529
On July 07 2010 02:59 PeT[uK] wrote:
ZERO neeeeds to be on this list. He is most definitely one of the top 10.


when someone's best wins in a given month are against jangbi and hyuk, they don't. zero had an awful june
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
khellian
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)922 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-07 20:26:55
July 07 2010 19:50 GMT
#530
On July 07 2010 23:24 sixfour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 02:59 PeT[uK] wrote:
ZERO neeeeds to be on this list. He is most definitely one of the top 10.


when someone's best wins in a given month are against jangbi and hyuk, they don't. zero had an awful june

So had "some other" players... *cough* ^_*
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
July 08 2010 00:28 GMT
#531
As much as I love BaBy, he needs to be off the PR next month unless he does some amazing turn around.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
July 08 2010 07:20 GMT
#532
Stats, Snow...
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-08 10:08:19
July 08 2010 10:04 GMT
#533
On July 08 2010 16:20 SuperArc wrote:
Stats, Snow...

What happend to Stats, I havent been around this week so I dont know, as far as I know he only lost to fantasy (which shouldnt derail him at all because he is ranked above, and fantasy is the better player).
Snow dropped the ball twice. In each league. At PvT. He had a flukey month imo.

Ah he dropped outta the OSL, Ah well. Guess Bisu is 1st toss again.. Damnit!
On the other hand I get someone to hate on, getting boring to hate on Fantasy tbh...
In the woods, there lurks..
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
July 08 2010 13:09 GMT
#534
Why does free suck in individual leagues? Just wondering.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-08 13:30:55
July 08 2010 13:20 GMT
#535
On July 08 2010 22:09 Musoeun wrote:
Why does free suck in individual leagues? Just wondering.


Free is in my opinion a player who is able to play real good starcraft sometimes, but in general is just a bit better than mediocre. There is nothing special about his play.
Therefore, everytime someone writes that he is/was the best protoss player for the last couple of months I am hurting, because it reflects onto the state of the protoss race. If people expect Free to really challenge the best players in the world in individual leagues, they are mistaken.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
July 08 2010 15:33 GMT
#536
On July 08 2010 22:09 Musoeun wrote:
Why does free suck in individual leagues? Just wondering.


Idk he's not that bad imo, at least compared to a player like Sea who is far better than his starleague performance. Maybe he can do well in OSL
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 08 2010 20:23 GMT
#537
On July 07 2010 22:47 setzer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 22:39 Mortality wrote:
On July 07 2010 22:03 setzer wrote:
On July 07 2010 19:54 Mortality wrote:
I don't at all think the players put more weight on Proleague than individual league games, except for maybe the Proleague finals. Especially not now that palyers don't know who they are facing. But even before, where was it that players would do their match fixing? Starleague or Proleague?

Also, to Goragoth: I don't at all think that Zero is a streaky player. His ZvT and ZvP have consistently been among the best for over a year now. He's #2 in both ZvT and ZvP ELO for a reason. What kills him is his ZvZ, 10-15 so far this year. Terrible compared with his 13-6 ZvT record and 13-3 ZvP record. (I'm just using the start of 2010 as a reference point to get a large enough sample to be meaningful -- in point of fact, Zero's ZvZ seemed to be steadily declining until very recently).


Yes they do. Players routinely say they practice more for proleague than individual leagues in their interviews. Proleague has become much more important to players because the team aspect has become much more important. Player contracts are even setup now to reward players who perform well with bonuses and PL weights a lot more heavily when deciding whether to extend contracts and increase salaries. JWD admitted as such in the August 09 ranking with the words:

"Now blatantly obvious: Proleague has usurped the OSL's position as StarCraft's most prestigious contest. The 08-09 PL's massive season and suitably epic new playoff format have garnered an unprecedented level of attention from from fans, media, sponsors, coaches, and players; the Power Rank ought follow suit. Individual league best-ofs can no longer be the litmus test for PR placement. Even ignoring his OSL and MSL victories but considering his loss in GOM, Jaedong deserves this rank's top spot for carrying Hwaseung with two crucial single-set wins on BW's new biggest stage."


Quote taken out of context alert.

You forget that August 2009 was when the Proleague Grand Finals were taking place. Kind of a different story than a regular PL game. The Proleague Grand Finals is the most prestigious stage in Starcraft. Random PL matches, however, mean absolute shit compared to SL matches.

And when it comes to contracts, the biggest contracts are held by players who have won Starleagues.


And coincidentally those players just happen to perform really well in PL too. And just because that was posted during the 09 playoffs does not mean it is not true for all of proleague. Most players know they have little to no chance of ever winning a SL. Getting onto the a-team and being fielded for proleague is to many more important than making the ro32 of the OSL. I think you are looking at this too narrowly.


I think you're confusing the issue. You're talking about qualifying for the OSL, which isn't something you can especially prepare for. Offline prelim groups aren't released well in advance and there are too many possibilities and too many unknowns you would have to prepare for to make it worth really bothering. Furthermore, if you have to show off a special build at that level, then it really isn't worth bothering.

But those people aren't even in the Starleague yet.

By the time you've made Ro16 in either league, your matches are indisputably more important than any non-playoff match in PL excepting perhaps a situation where your team is literally on the brink of playoffs and winning or losing will determine whether you move on or go home. And don't even get me started on the importance of a finals.



In other news, Stats and Free, I am disappointed.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Tianx
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1196 Posts
July 08 2010 21:15 GMT
#538
Free is fully capable of stunning StarCraft. Sad to see him crash and burn like that.
Intrigue: "as i've said to many others your troubles in life may be directly correlated to your dirty protoss icon"
WWJDD
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
India342 Posts
July 09 2010 12:04 GMT
#539
Damn + Show Spoiler +
Baby
. How can you lose like that?

Also + Show Spoiler +
JD rape train left the station. I don't think Protoss playing against him have any hope at all in individual leagues.
choo choo.
WWJDD??
Tianx
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1196 Posts
July 09 2010 12:53 GMT
#540
Interesting timing on saying that Jaedong's ZvP is invincible, seeing that Jaedong literally just lost to Bisu (in his first loss to a Protoss not named Stork since June... of 2009. Holy balls). That's more to Bisu's credit more than anything else, though. Looking at today's games, Jaedong's ZvP is as brutally ruthless as ever.

Man, does it suck to be protoss.
Intrigue: "as i've said to many others your troubles in life may be directly correlated to your dirty protoss icon"
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