EPTRight now I do not see any Zerg playing at the S-class level losing to any Protoss player in a bo5 except maybe, maybe, Bisu if he keeps playing like this. That means Jaedong and it means Effort and Zero when they are playing their best.
Power Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 29
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Right now I do not see any Zerg playing at the S-class level losing to any Protoss player in a bo5 except maybe, maybe, Bisu if he keeps playing like this. That means Jaedong and it means Effort and Zero when they are playing their best. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 11 2010 09:37 Mortality wrote: I think Effort at his best displays a similar caliber of ZvP. If I were to compare Effort and Jaedong, I'd say the biggest differences between them as players are that Jaedong is more well rounded and more consistent. Right now I do not see any Zerg playing at the S-class level losing to any Protoss player in a bo5 except maybe, maybe, Bisu if he keeps playing like this. That means Jaedong and it means Effort and Zero when they are playing their best. Nope, not Zero. Unless you're talking about the potential future, since Zero's never been s-class. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:11 Cpadolf wrote: Before those games, however, he was on a ridiculous tear against Protoss. And all in all he is 35-8 in his last 43 ZvP's, which coincidentally is exactly the same record Savior had at the height of his ZvP dominance. Jaedong's vP is quite clearly the most dominant matchup in all of BW right now. Not so much. I certainly won't argue that  Jaedong's ZvP is his strongest match-up, and he has the best ZvP of anybody, but it's not correct to suggest that it's by a wide margin. For example, EffOrt's ZvP is 31-12 in the same amount of games, which is less, but hardly staggering. ZerO's last 43 (why 43, anyway?) has him going 30-13. Calm went 30-13 as well. And yes, Jaedong has gone 23-2 since October 14th of last year, which is absurd. (EffOrt: 17-6, ZerO: 19-9) But from April to December of last year, EffOrt went 18-3 in ZvP while Jaedong went 18-7. So when you say things like this: On July 11 2010 08:34 setzer wrote: It took miracles from Bisu and Stork to beat Jaedong. No other protoss has even a chance in a bo1 let alone a bo3 or bo5. Jaedong's ZvP is only a completely different tier than everyone else, and that is saying something considering how the matchup has been lately. You just sound silly, because it's not true. Just like any match-up, players of somewhat equal calibre can win against each other with the right strategy, tactics, and luck. That still means JD's ZvP is the best in the game, and I don't see any protoss beating JD in a BoX in his current form, but still, he's beatable. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On July 11 2010 10:48 tree.hugger wrote: Not so much. I certainly won't argue that Jaedong's ZvP is his strongest match-up, and he has the best ZvP of anybody, but it's not correct to suggest that it's by a wide margin. For example, EffOrt's ZvP is 31-12 in the same amount of games, which is less, but hardly staggering. ZerO's last 43 (why 43, anyway?) has him going 30-13. Calm went 30-13 as well. And yes, Jaedong has gone 23-2 since October 14th of last year, which is absurd. (EffOrt: 17-6, ZerO: 19-9) But from April to December of last year, EffOrt went 18-3 in ZvP while Jaedong went 18-7. So when you say things like this: You just sound silly, because it's not true. Just like any match-up, players of somewhat equal calibre can win against each other with the right strategy, tactics, and luck. That still means JD's ZvP is the best in the game, and I don't see any protoss beating JD in a BoX in his current form, but still, he's beatable. Yes it is. Just because calm records one win and Jaedong records one win does not make them equal. Jaedong's ZvP is far and away better than everyone else and the only person who is close is Effort, and he plays a completely different style than Jaedong, making it a bit harder to compare the two. Almost every single one of Jaedong's ZvP wins in the last year have been complete rapes. And just to compare the #1 ZvP to the #2 ZvP (effort imo), just look at their ELO. Jaedong has a 148 ELO advantage over Effort. I see no indication in his play that he will slow down and stop the protoss tears from flowing. | ||
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
Tree.hugger, you're constantly saying that the skill level between jaedong and effort is closer than most people imagine. I agree with you there. But Jaedong's recent ZvP really is on a completely different level. There's no comparison at the moment, imho. I think Jaedong is beatable, but only in the most literal sense of the word. Yes, there is a very slim chance that he may lose a boX. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 11 2010 12:00 LucasWoJ wrote: Anyone who's been tracking Jaedong's ZvP game-by-game would notice that there have been numerous adjustments made. His ZvP since about August is a little different than it was before, and it's arguably the reason why he's so incredibly successful at it. He almost exclusively does the ling run-by and doesn't build any drones until after his third hatch, thereby giving him a slightly faster gas, tech, and scourge. I'd be really interested to read a Final Edit on the topic. Been the standard for over a year | ||
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
It's been the standard for jaedong. | ||
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NoFormula
Norway9 Posts
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Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
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NoFormula
Norway9 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 11 2010 12:00 LucasWoJ wrote: Anyone who's been tracking Jaedong's ZvP game-by-game would notice that there have been numerous adjustments made. His ZvP since about August is a little different than it was before, and it's arguably the reason why he's so incredibly successful at it. He almost exclusively does the ling run-by and doesn't build any drones until after his third hatch, thereby giving him a slightly faster gas, tech, and scourge. I'd be really interested to read a Final Edit on the topic. Tree.hugger, you're constantly saying that the skill level between jaedong and effort is closer than most people imagine. I agree with you there. But Jaedong's recent ZvP really is on a completely different level. There's no comparison at the moment, imho. I think Jaedong is beatable, but only in the most literal sense of the word. Yes, there is a very slim chance that he may lose a boX. I'm not only saying it's closer than you expect between Jaedong and EffOrt, but I'm saying that on any given day, there are a battery of zergs who can have very good ZvP. Jaedong does it day in and day out, because his mechanics are incredibly solid, and because he has a better understanding of the match-up then, say, HoeJJa. But this is the same as Flash's TvT and his TvZ, and Bisu's PvZ, and BeSt's PvP, and Jaedong's ZvZ, and all other match-ups once deemed invincible. This isn't by any stretch a knock on Jaedong's ZvP, it's the best, I'll say it again... but just when you think someone's figured out a match-up completely and totally, they start losing in it. And he didn't even come close to inventing or popularizing ling runbys. As long as there have been fast expansions, there have been ling runbys. | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 11 2010 10:48 tree.hugger wrote: Not so much. I certainly won't argue that Jaedong's ZvP is his strongest match-up, and he has the best ZvP of anybody, but it's not correct to suggest that it's by a wide margin. For example, EffOrt's ZvP is 31-12 in the same amount of games, which is less, but hardly staggering. ZerO's last 43 (why 43, anyway?) has him going 30-13. Calm went 30-13 as well. And yes, Jaedong has gone 23-2 since October 14th of last year, which is absurd. (EffOrt: 17-6, ZerO: 19-9) But from April to December of last year, EffOrt went 18-3 in ZvP while Jaedong went 18-7. So when you say things like this: You just sound silly, because it's not true. Just like any match-up, players of somewhat equal calibre can win against each other with the right strategy, tactics, and luck. That still means JD's ZvP is the best in the game, and I don't see any protoss beating JD in a BoX in his current form, but still, he's beatable. I counted from 43 games since Saviors greatest stretch of ZvP dominance lasted that long, which is what I compared him to. It's not even very beneficial for Jaedong's record to count with that many games since most of his loses comes from the back half of those games. And I didn't say that it was the best by a wide margin, but it is the best by a big enough margin to make it clearly noticeable at least. | ||
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DracoVolantus
Poland236 Posts
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nonduc
Russian Federation405 Posts
 Jaedong/Overall Statistics — is this helpful? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 11 2010 19:19 DracoVolantus wrote: Any Zerg ZvP streaks are pitiful compared to Bisu's PvZ streaks, he wins with such dominant fashion, it is so obvious nobody can stop him when he is at top form that reading what You wrote above makes my eyes hurt. I actually went to check his match history because you said something like that, and he's never had a streak that's even close or somewhat comparable. Stop talking trash please. | ||
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serenidite
Korea (South)505 Posts
On July 11 2010 19:19 DracoVolantus wrote: Any Zerg ZvP streaks are pitiful compared to Bisu's PvZ streaks, he wins with such dominant fashion, it is so obvious nobody can stop him when he is at top form that reading what You wrote above makes my eyes hurt. unfortunately this is false :/ For example Savior had one of the most dominant ZvP's in the world Up until that GOMTV MSL no P could even hope to touch him. The only players giving him "trouble" were T players same with Julyzerg. That big man has god-like ZvP and won the 08 OSL with it. (great great series) And Jaedong. Beat Bisu in the GOMTV Speical Bo5. It was CLOSE and their H2H is very close, but by saying "Any Zerg ZvP streajs are... Bisu's PvZ streaks" .. its kinda ignorant and fanboy-ish | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On July 12 2010 00:28 Shikyo wrote: I actually went to check his match history because you said something like that, and he's never had a streak that's even close or somewhat comparable. Stop talking trash please. Bisu's 30-10 through his last 40 pvz slump and all. Jaedong's 32-8 in his last 40 zvp. None of Bisu's streaks dwarf Jaedong's obviously and Jaedong might even have a slight edge, but I think Bisu is at least comparable. What streaks or stats are you talking about? | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 12 2010 01:07 Nick_54 wrote: Bisu's 30-10 through his last 40 pvz slump and all. Jaedong's 32-8 in his last 40 zvp. None of Bisu's streaks dwarf Jaedong's obviously and Jaedong might even have a slight edge, but I think Bisu is at least comparable. What streaks or stats are you talking about? If you extend it over a longer period of time they will be more comparable, of course, but for the strongest selective streaks Jaedong is currently 23-2 in his last 25, and a few years back he had a 24-3 run. The best ones I can see for Bisu are 29-9, 18-5 and 14-2. Because of matchup imbalance I wouldn't necessarily say that Jaedong's are much more impressive though. | ||
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nonduc
Russian Federation405 Posts
On July 12 2010 01:07 Nick_54 wrote: Bisu's 30-10 through his last 40 pvz slump and all. Jaedong's 32-8 in his last 40 zvp. None of Bisu's streaks dwarf Jaedong's obviously and Jaedong might even have a slight edge, but I think Bisu is at least comparable. What streaks or stats are you talking about? Nope. Bisu is only 27–13 in his last PvZ according to TLPD: link. And in TLPD the loss to JD 0–2 in Semis of WCG 2009 GF is missed (and it’s counted by Fomos, see here or here). Actually it’s 26–14 in last 40 games, only 65%. Good, but not great. | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 12 2010 01:28 nonduc wrote: Nope. Bisu is only 27–13 in his last PvZ according to TLPD: link. And in TLPD the loss to JD 0–2 in Semis of WCG 2009 GF is missed (and it’s counted by Fomos, see here or here). Actually it’s 26–14 in last 40 games, only 65%. Good, but not great. I hardly think team evaluation or Ultimate PL should be counted though. | ||
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