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On July 05 2010 10:02 Trap wrote:
I enjoy watching the Chintoss, but I don't think any Protoss is playing well enough all round to merit higher than 8th. Stats is like the Hiya of KT, who's proven himself a solid player over the last few months but not really extraordinary or favored vs any top ranked player. Same deal with the last toss-of-the-month Snow @ 6th. If you're going to favor the momentum a player has been building up rather than their most recent monthly statistics, then it makes sense to gradually introduce them to the power rank.
Also what's with the surge in monthly power rage? It's just one guy's opinion that happens to be on the first page, not an attack on everything you hold dear about Starcraft.
Yeah but apathy doesn't win arguments and at the end of the day it's not about what plexa or tl or korea thinks, it's about being right
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On July 05 2010 09:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss.
Clearly you and Musoeun should settle this by posting links to every VOD of a ridiculous comeback by a top progamer.
Please?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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I still laugh everytime I browse TLnet and see the ranking. Deep down I know it wont be changed, but I cant stop hoping quite yet. I am such a sucker lol. ^_*
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United States8841 Posts
On July 05 2010 12:53 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 09:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss. Clearly you and Musoeun should settle this by posting links to every VOD of a ridiculous comeback by a top progamer. Please?
Rofl I guess I could just link all of his games vs FBH, the July/Shuttle games from GOM, his ridiculous comeback on ultimatum vs Jaedong, uh, I think he had like 2 or three crazy games with Kal where he was behind and won.
Basically I just remember people saying Flash is really lucky that he came back from X game and then I realized that Flash comes back from huge deficits all the damn time. 90% of his games he starts off with a disadvantage.
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On July 05 2010 20:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 12:53 Severedevil wrote:On July 05 2010 09:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss. Clearly you and Musoeun should settle this by posting links to every VOD of a ridiculous comeback by a top progamer. Please? Rofl I guess I could just link all of his games vs FBH, the July/Shuttle games from GOM, his ridiculous comeback on ultimatum vs Jaedong, uh, I think he had like 2 or three crazy games with Kal where he was behind and won. Basically I just remember people saying Flash is really lucky that he came back from X game and then I realized that Flash comes back from huge deficits all the damn time. 90% of his games he starts off with a disadvantage.
Yes, clearly this is true lol. Sorry man, I agree that Flash is good at combacks, no denying it. But stating that he is in some sort of disadvantage 90% of the games he wins is just ridiculous.
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United States8841 Posts
No, that includes games he loses. Just in general, unless Flash pulls something like scout ->14 CC or a good bunker rush, he ends up with some disadvantage.90% is just an overexaggeration but I was making a point rather than a conclusive fact.
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On July 05 2010 20:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, that includes games he loses. Just in general, unless Flash pulls something like scout ->14 CC or a good bunker rush, he ends up with some disadvantage.90% is just an overexaggeration but I was making a point rather than a conclusive fact.
Alright, but why try to use statistics if you are just exaggerating and trying to make a point, it just looks bad. I do se your point (lol) and I agree that he is very good at at. A big part of it as I see it is that he really makes very few mistakes and almost always puniches his oppent for their mistakes, when he is in form that is. Clearly he is not in form at the moment though. ^_*
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I hope Action will keep on winning so he can make an appearance of the next PR. He's fucking good. ^__^
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United States8841 Posts
On July 05 2010 21:07 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 20:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, that includes games he loses. Just in general, unless Flash pulls something like scout ->14 CC or a good bunker rush, he ends up with some disadvantage.90% is just an overexaggeration but I was making a point rather than a conclusive fact. Alright, but why try to use statistics if you are just exaggerating and trying to make a point, it just looks bad. I do se your point (lol) and I agree that he is very good at at. A big part of it as I see it is that he really makes very few mistakes and almost always puniches his oppent for their mistakes, when he is in form that is. Clearly he is not in form at the moment though. ^_*
There was no relevant statistic, people use off cuff percentages all the time to make an exaggeration.
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On July 05 2010 22:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 21:07 khellian wrote:On July 05 2010 20:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, that includes games he loses. Just in general, unless Flash pulls something like scout ->14 CC or a good bunker rush, he ends up with some disadvantage.90% is just an overexaggeration but I was making a point rather than a conclusive fact. Alright, but why try to use statistics if you are just exaggerating and trying to make a point, it just looks bad. I do se your point (lol) and I agree that he is very good at at. A big part of it as I see it is that he really makes very few mistakes and almost always puniches his oppent for their mistakes, when he is in form that is. Clearly he is not in form at the moment though. ^_* There was no relevant statistic, people use off cuff percentages all the time to make an exaggeration.
Alright, I get it. So unless people actually point out that the numbers they throw around are relevant, I should just assume they are exaggerating? LOL That is just absurd, as is the amount of exaggeration in this thread.
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On July 05 2010 21:58 Holgerius wrote:
I hope Action will keep on winning so he can make an appearance of the next PR. He's fucking good. ^__^
I second this. Action has impressed me ever since his game versus Flash and his attempted 4pool against Fantasy. I would love to see him step up and win more.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States8841 Posts
On July 05 2010 22:38 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 22:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 05 2010 21:07 khellian wrote:On July 05 2010 20:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, that includes games he loses. Just in general, unless Flash pulls something like scout ->14 CC or a good bunker rush, he ends up with some disadvantage.90% is just an overexaggeration but I was making a point rather than a conclusive fact. Alright, but why try to use statistics if you are just exaggerating and trying to make a point, it just looks bad. I do se your point (lol) and I agree that he is very good at at. A big part of it as I see it is that he really makes very few mistakes and almost always puniches his oppent for their mistakes, when he is in form that is. Clearly he is not in form at the moment though. ^_* There was no relevant statistic, people use off cuff percentages all the time to make an exaggeration. Alright, I get it. So unless people actually point out that the numbers they throw around are relevant, I should just assume they are exaggerating? LOL That is just absurd, as is the amount of exaggeration in this thread.
Actually yes, if someone does not back up their numbers implicitly then there's no reason to believe it's anything more than a basic comment.
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On July 05 2010 20 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 20 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 12:53 Severedevil wrote:On July 05 2010 09:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss. Clearly you and Musoeun should settle this by posting links to every VOD of a ridiculous comeback by a top progamer. Please? Rofl I guess I could just link all of his games vs FBH, the July/Shuttle games from GOM, his ridiculous comeback on ultimatum vs Jaedong, uh, I think he had like 2 or three crazy games with Kal where he was behind and won. Basically I just remember people saying Flash is really lucky that he came back from X game and then I realized that Flash comes back from huge deficits all the damn time. 90% of his games he starts off with a disadvantage.
Half of those games he wasn't even at a disadvantage in the first place, FBH vs Flash was probably the only one but even in that game he never was a base down. I don't get how he ever was at a disadvantage on Ultimatum vs Jaedong. Winning vs players of the caliber of July and Shuttle is a comeback? The shuttle game you could consider that but I didn't think so at any point, that's how his build works and it doesn't matter if Tasteless thinks he's behind to me. Maybe you just have problems judging if someone is behind if you truly think that Flash is at a disadvantage after the early game in nearly every game.
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United States8841 Posts
Rofl, okay, 7 gas zerg vs 3 base terran is totally not a disadvantage. 3 Base terran against 5 base toss, He was definitely behind on bases vs FBH. You're a complete loon if you didn't think he was behind in every game I cited.
I mean those were just the games off the top of my head. If you want more recent, in both his Bo5 with Movie and Pure he was at a disadvantage due to his opponent's intelligent build in almost every match and still won the series convincingly. This doesn't have a lot to due with the current power rank but goddamn if it doesn't annoy me when people discredit Flash for the entirely wrong thing
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Don't forget Flash's comebacks versus Free on Andromeda and vs. Hwasin on Medusa.
Only dramatic comeback I can think of JD participating in is vs. Lomo in GOM a couple years ago. I know there are more, but it definitely seems like Flash has a lead there.
In terms of entertainment, I think Bisu wins out. There's no player with more flair when he's going good. Not particularly a fan of his, but he's damn fun to watch.
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United States8841 Posts
Jaedong came back against flash in their RH3 game if you want a notable and exciting one for him.
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On July 05 2010 20:52 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 20:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:On July 05 2010 12:53 Severedevil wrote:On July 05 2010 09:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss. Clearly you and Musoeun should settle this by posting links to every VOD of a ridiculous comeback by a top progamer. Please? Rofl I guess I could just link all of his games vs FBH, the July/Shuttle games from GOM, his ridiculous comeback on ultimatum vs Jaedong, uh, I think he had like 2 or three crazy games with Kal where he was behind and won. Basically I just remember people saying Flash is really lucky that he came back from X game and then I realized that Flash comes back from huge deficits all the damn time. 90% of his games he starts off with a disadvantage. Yes, clearly this is true lol. Sorry man, I agree that Flash is good at combacks, no denying it. But stating that he is in some sort of disadvantage 90% of the games he wins is just ridiculous.
lol yeah. He says that includes the game he lost but still, making a statement like that rofl
Yes Flash is soo amazing he can do 14 cc and kill zergs and he knows how to cheese omg! all hail flash, twotone =)
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United States8841 Posts
Didn't you just get warned for trolling?
Flash has past accolades, this isn't a surprise. I was just correcting abit of Museon's analysis which I otherwise agree with.
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Flash *does* come back from disadvantages a lot because he builds that into his style. Flash's early game is designed to not lose outright to anything, but the trade-off is that it's fairly predictable and can be exploited***. This is a good trade-off if you know you're better than everyone --- you suffer few no-chance BO losses, but your opponent can sometimes get a head start that lasts until your superior skill kicks in. (Bisu and Jaedong suffer no-chance BO losses more often because they mix things up more, but they also get more "free wins" --- especially Bisu, who used to DT rush every other Terran until it stopped working.)
Also, I've always felt that part of why Flash is good is that he wins 100% of the games he's "supposed to" win, and 75% of the games he's "supposed to" lose, judging by the state of the midgame. Maybe it's just the nature of the Terran race, but it also has to do with the way Flash just makes fewer mistakes than his opponents, so his position 5 minutes later is almost always better than his position 5 minutes earlier.
So yeah, Flash makes more comebacks than any other progamer. (Although check out Jaedong in 2009 JvZ.) It's just a calculated risk --- if you want to play an "all-purpose build" that folds to nothing, then people will cut corners against you and you will have to fight a lot of uphill battles.
Oh yeah, and Flash really knows how to turtle when he needs to, and the turtling player almost always looks behind even when the game is even. Tank upgrades are like that.
***In Bo5's against S-class opponents he throws that out the window and plays mindgames just like every other good series player.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/flashsigh.gif)
