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On July 04 2010 06:39 Mortality wrote:
It sounds to me like you'd be willing to accept my argument (or at least most of it) for Flash as #1, even if you would disagree. Is this correct?
...It's as much a discredit to them as it is to Flash to say otherwise. Flash just tried to do his usual. and even though he played solid Starcraft, it wasn't enough. These other players deserve the credit for their wins, rather than saying the wins were a fault of Flash.
I'm not entirely sure what your argument is. My argument for Flash #1 - if I were making the argument - would be, "Flash just beat Jaedong last month, and has accomplished the historic double-dual-finals. Give him a break, man." This is literally the only argument I will accept for Flash #1 this month (and it's a reasonable one for the PR).
Your argument appears to be - apologies if I'm reading this wrong - that since other players are figuring out Flash's play, it's not actually Flash's fault he's losing, he's still just as good just having a poor transition period or something. I think this line of argument is pure nonsense: it doesn't matter whether you're worse or the other guy is better if you're losing. And Flash - apart from a shaky MSL showing - hasn't won when it mattered this month.
Here's why I don't believe Flash is #1: from the play they've been showing, EffOrt and Jaedong have both made themselves favorites over Flash - EffOrt clearly, Jaedong a bit more shakily because of course Flash did just hand him his ass six weeks ago; but since then Jaedong's been playing much better than Flash. Competent Terrans have a good shot at Flash right now; very good ones like Sea and fantasy are probably favored in a Bo1 at least if not series play. Top Zergs I'd give even chances against Flash right now. That string of ace losses has created too much doubt in my mind to keep Flash #1 unless everybody else sucks too. And they don't - EffOrt, Sea, and free at least all have show solid outings (especially EffOrt), and never mind them, there's a clear challenger for #1: the only thing JD's lost lately if a goofy game vs YellOw which was at least 60% a BO loss.
So that's sort of how I'm approaching it. Yes, Flash has been on top of the world; yes he beat Jaedong soundly six weeks ago; but since then he's been the image of unconvincing. If Kal and Calm had been playing even competently, and STX had overtaken KT for #1, those losses would look a lot bigger than the not-really-mattering Flash fans have convinced themselves they amount to.
What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively".
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On July 04 2010 13:01 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 12:55 jalstar wrote:
Sorry, but how does Snow getting eliminated from rounds of leagues that Stats hasn't played yet prove Stats is better? Not supporting either player here, I'd personally pick Snow to play a PvT and Stats to play PvP and PvZ. Stats has actually been deep in an individual league before? Beating Fantasy & typeB, July twice and then coming back from 0-1 against Jangbi, before getting raped by Jaedong like any protoss player would.. Obviously if he gets knocked out of MSL and OSL like Snow you have a decent point, but just based purely off the hype for both players (Snow moreso than Stats) and the results they've shown Stats > Snow I think it's unfair to just write him off as "another Snow/shuttle" type player. EDIT: And yeah De4ngus I get you. Hard to be a protoss fan these days.
I agree Stats > Snow, I have Stats on FPL but not Snow (not that I'm doing well in FPL mind you)
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On July 04 2010 13:50 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 06:39 Mortality wrote:
It sounds to me like you'd be willing to accept my argument (or at least most of it) for Flash as #1, even if you would disagree. Is this correct?
...It's as much a discredit to them as it is to Flash to say otherwise. Flash just tried to do his usual. and even though he played solid Starcraft, it wasn't enough. These other players deserve the credit for their wins, rather than saying the wins were a fault of Flash. I'm not entirely sure what your argument is. My argument for Flash #1 - if I were making the argument - would be, "Flash just beat Jaedong last month, and has accomplished the historic double-dual-finals. Give him a break, man." This is literally the only argument I will accept for Flash #1 this month (and it's a reasonable one for the PR).
I think a second (smaller) good argument for Flash is, that he won in the most important game for KT in June, against Kal vs STX. If they had lost head to head, the race for the first seed could easily have looked much different.
Still favouring Jadeong slighty for #1, for all the reasons already mentioned by a lot of people.
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i wouldnt of even given flash #2. Putting him as no #1... wtf. All the arguments people are makng for flash staying no #1 i think are ignoring the basic facts, he only had 50% win rate this month.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
Wow, several days and 22 pages later no one is talking about anything but Flash and Jaedong. Maybe creating this "controversy" was a bad idea after all 
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United States8841 Posts
I wonder if this will be the first PR to break 1K replies.
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I can feel your anger JD fans, i was there too when JWD didn't put Flash on PR even though he was in tournament final. God i was angry back then, but i am happy now and can only laugh at your rage. JD is 2nd? The space will probably collide! JD is right where he belongs, in comfy and calm Flash's shade.
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On July 05 2010 01:05 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I wonder if this will be the first PR to break 1K replies.
me too 
and I believe that Flash will go over 9000 (2400) ELO again after this MSL &OSL :X
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On July 05 2010 01:26 johanes wrote:
I can feel your anger JD fans, i was there too when JWD didn't put Flash on PR even though he was in tournament final. God i was angry back then, but i am happy now and can only laugh at your rage. JD is 2nd? The space will probably collide! JD is right where he belongs, in comfy and calm Flash's shade.
Holy cow some people take this rank thingie way too seriously. Can't tell if this is scary or just sad Oo
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On July 05 2010 01 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 01 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:26 johanes wrote:
I can feel your anger JD fans, i was there too when JWD didn't put Flash on PR even though he was in tournament final. God i was angry back then, but i am happy now and can only laugh at your rage. JD is 2nd? The space will probably collide! JD is right where he belongs, in comfy and calm Flash's shade.
Even I didn't agree with him being off the PR at all, it weren't just Flash fans who were complaining, it was just wrong. Just like this is wrong.
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What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively".
Musoeun,
The highest win rate, rolled Jaedong, doesn't drop games to scrubs (except for the most recent blip). What exactly is an "aura of fear." Because clearly you aren't basing it on actual gameplay and results. You people are ridiculous. There is no one on the pro scene that's been gunned for like Flash over the past three years. Give the guy a few weeks and he'll be back in form. He's never even had a prolonged slump. I wish you people understood the concept of variance, especially in a game like Starcraft.
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On July 05 2010 03:50 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:Show nested quote +What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively". There is no one on the pro scene that's been gunned for like Flash over the past three years.
Past 3 years? I think you're talking about Jaedong.
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On July 05 2010 03:50 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:Show nested quote +What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively". Musoeun, The highest win rate, rolled Jaedong, doesn't drop games to scrubs (except for the most recent blip). What exactly is an "aura of fear." Because clearly you aren't basing it on actual gameplay and results. You people are ridiculous. There is no one on the pro scene that's been gunned for like Flash over the past three years. Give the guy a few weeks and he'll be back in form. He's never even had a prolonged slump. I wish you people understood the concept of variance, especially in a game like Starcraft.
What I mean by "aura of fear" is exactly that. Flash does not project dominance by his own self; he has nothing that compares with "Angry Jaedong". Day in and day out, Flash is on average the best there's ever been; but except at the very top of his game, when his play just looks completely mechanically unstoppable, he doesn't project "threat" the way most other top players do.
And yes, this is subjective. Yes, this is unfair because I'm judging Flash for being what he is. But what I'm saying is, Flash has never seemed to project the aura of winning games just because he wants to - think about some of the more ridiculous examples of JvZ - so when he slips at all, it looks like he's slipped a lot.
I guess I'd put it like this: Flash plays like a machine; when a gear starts ticking a little wrong, it may not actually change all that much, a little slower than usual, but it just doesn't look or sound right. And that's kind of what I think about Flash right now. It's not that he's bad or not one of the top players or whatever, but he's not quite "right", either.
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On July 05 2010 01:26 johanes wrote:
I can feel your anger JD fans, i was there too when JWD didn't put Flash on PR even though he was in tournament final. God i was angry back then, but i am happy now and can only laugh at your rage. JD is 2nd? The space will probably collide! JD is right where he belongs, in comfy and calm Flash's shade.
That'll make it even better when the Dong will butt-rape him in the next finals. If he gets past effort.
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On July 05 2010 04:27 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 03:50 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively". Musoeun, The highest win rate, rolled Jaedong, doesn't drop games to scrubs (except for the most recent blip). What exactly is an "aura of fear." Because clearly you aren't basing it on actual gameplay and results. You people are ridiculous. There is no one on the pro scene that's been gunned for like Flash over the past three years. Give the guy a few weeks and he'll be back in form. He's never even had a prolonged slump. I wish you people understood the concept of variance, especially in a game like Starcraft. What I mean by "aura of fear" is exactly that. Flash does not project dominance by his own self; he has nothing that compares with "Angry Jaedong". Day in and day out, Flash is on average the best there's ever been; but except at the very top of his game, when his play just looks completely mechanically unstoppable, he doesn't project "threat" the way most other top players do. And yes, this is subjective. Yes, this is unfair because I'm judging Flash for being what he is. But what I'm saying is, Flash has never seemed to project the aura of winning games just because he wants to - think about some of the more ridiculous examples of JvZ - so when he slips at all, it looks like he's slipped a lot. I guess I'd put it like this: Flash plays like a machine; when a gear starts ticking a little wrong, it may not actually change all that much, a little slower than usual, but it just doesn't look or sound right. And that's kind of what I think about Flash right now. It's not that he's bad or not one of the top players or whatever, but he's not quite "right", either.
Sorry if I got you wrong here, but reading your post I would get the impression that Flash is a player depending on his mechanics, which is completely false. Jaedong is mechanicaly the better player for example and his gameplay is also much more dependant on good mechanics.
What makes Flash so good is his game sense, that's what really sets him apart from his opponents (even JD). He just know what to do and when and how to do it better than anyone else. That's also the reason he is so hard to copy, because it's not something you could easily learn (like muta micro). All other Terrans last couple of seasons totally sucked, not getting even to the semis of any individual leagues. Fantasy is the solely exception, but he has totally different playstyle anyway.
I'm not really arguing whether Flash has any aura of fear or not, that's purely subjective. I just feel the need to clear this up. Flash doesn't play like a mashine...in fact, in one sense his gameplay is furthest from machine from every progamer out there.
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^ What? Flash really is mostly a mechanical player, and his gamesense is mostly strategic in nature that seeks to enhance his mechanics. He doesn't do anything special in almost any game and relies on his builds and mechanics to win, whereas JD can sometimes do something completely insane that might work or might not. Flash is one of the safest top players.
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On July 05 2010 04:07 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 03:50 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:What it comes down to is: I don't believe in Flash. Yes, he's potentially the best; yes, he's ridiculously good; but he doesn't project the aura of fear that Jaedong, EffOrt, or Bisu do when they're playing well. So when he slips, he loses credibility, no matter how ridiculous that may be "objectively". There is no one on the pro scene that's been gunned for like Flash over the past three years. Past 3 years? I think you're talking about Jaedong.
Thank you I can't believe he said that -_-.
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On July 05 2010 05:30 L0thar wrote:
Sorry if I got you wrong here, but reading your post I would get the impression that Flash is a player depending on his mechanics, which is completely false. Jaedong is mechanicaly the better player for example and his gameplay is also much more dependant on good mechanics.
What makes Flash so good is his game sense, that's what really sets him apart from his opponents (even JD). He just know what to do and when and how to do it better than anyone else. That's also the reason he is so hard to copy, because it's not something you could easily learn (like muta micro). All other Terrans last couple of seasons totally sucked, not getting even to the semis of any individual leagues. Fantasy is the solely exception, but he has totally different playstyle anyway.
I'm not really arguing whether Flash has any aura of fear or not, that's purely subjective. I just feel the need to clear this up. Flash doesn't play like a mashine...in fact, in one sense his gameplay is furthest from machine from every progamer out there.
I used the term "mechanical", and by that I don't mean 400 APM (which Flash might have) or perfect macro (which top-form Flash, at least, does have), but the way the game looks - mechanical precision, the inevitability of Flash winning the game. Flash at the top of his game doesn't have anything to match Jaedong killing everything with mutalisks, or Jangbi or Reach annihilating your entire army with storm, or Leta's wraith-happy micro stunts - Flash instead "just" controls the entire game. Flash at his best sets the pace, sets the conditions, and then just breaks you, however he wants. And he does it because of his game-sense. Even though he probably can match the mechanics of other players, the micro stunts, that doesn't define him: the impossibly controlled and in-control approach to the game, as (for example) three months ago every single Flash TvZ was a straight-up win by denying the third and winning. There appeared to be no one who could stop this. Flash was ahead of the rest of the pack because he understood something about the game.
I meant the term "mechanical" to call to mind the machine, as contrasted to the force of nature. Jaedong's best wins stretch to the bizarre comebacks and strategies, from the original "ee han timing" game vs Stork to his game against Iris on SCR last year where he just won with mutas, to vs Flash on RH3 where he survived early pressure and won largely on the strength of a hidden expansion. Bisu's best wins take the opponent apart with harassment from front, rear, and sides, until finally he just breaks you. BeSt makes more units than you, and when you can't keep up any more you lose. Kwanro attacks you, and then attacks you some more, and if your defense holds or you make him get Hive, you win. In contrast to all these sorts of natural specialties in game play, Flash is just better than you at everything. In contrast to a style of play - even Jaedong, for all his skill with everything, will play with mutalisks by preference if at all possible - Flash takes the game itself, breaks it down, and uses it. The weakness is that when he demonstrates his understanding too often, it can be copied, analyzed in its turn, and defeated.
And if it sounds like I am praising Flash, well yes, I am. His approach to the game makes him the pinnacle of the Starcraft player. When Flash is at his best, no one is better - probably no one can be better (although that's always a dangerous proposition) because in a sense he is the game. But by the same token, when he's not at his best, while he still beats bad players - most bad players at least - and most decent players, he's in far more danger against other good players than other greats. Because he's not working with the game any longer. He's at the wrong timings, or whatever - and he has no signature trick to fall back on. Jaedong can screw up and still kill you with mutalisks if you give him an inch. If Flash screws up, he's mistimed an attack and he has no army - and he's lost, because doing everything exactly right is what defines him. Most of his opponents will still manage to lose eventually, because most will still give him just enough time to do the next thing; but the good player will punish him immediately, say with zerglings, and he's lost.
And this is what I'm seeing from Flash right now: the little mistakes, the uncertainties and tiny foul-ups, that doom him because of the way he plays. Flash is the Ultimate Weapon; but that means something crafted, something that can come apart. In some ways, Flash's play-style owes most to sAviOr's management Zerg - Flash is a management Terran. And while we haven't seen Flash anywhere near forgetting stim yet, it's that kind of mistake that dooms the management player.
Do we remember how close Jaedong came to beating Bisu after accidentally canceling his Spire? Yes, he lost... but I don't see Flash managing to come anywhere near that close to winning against a top player if he made a similar mistake. I guess I'm kind of rambling on, but what I'm trying to get at is this: Flash is the definition of a master of game and meta-game, but doesn't appear to have anything beyond that to draw on. I guess I'd put it this way: I remember no Flash wins - maybe I'm ignorant - that are comeback wins, outside of TvT. And even in those there's some key that makes it entirely explainable. Flash can control the game 70% of the time, but when he doesn't, he loses.
And right now he's not controlling games when it matters (ace games, for instance).
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United States8841 Posts
Flash has more ridiculous comebacks than any other player, though. He's quite possibly the best player in the world at damage control and wresting the match away from a certain loss.
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I enjoy watching the Chintoss, but I don't think any Protoss is playing well enough all round to merit higher than 8th. Stats is like the Hiya of KT, who's proven himself a solid player over the last few months but not really extraordinary or favored vs any top ranked player. Same deal with the last toss-of-the-month Snow @ 6th. If you're going to favor the momentum a player has been building up rather than their most recent monthly statistics, then it makes sense to gradually introduce them to the power rank.
Also what's with the surge in monthly power rage? It's just one guy's opinion that happens to be on the first page, not an attack on everything you hold dear about Starcraft.
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EPT
