EPTPower Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 20
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o[twist]
United States4903 Posts
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On July 03 2010 22:58 johanes wrote: So the PR isn't super objective assessment of each players form for the last 30 days that everybody agrees upon? Oh the horror, the horror... Yeah dude I get your point but the fact isn't that a minority of people disagree on it, but that a clear majority disagrees. This discrepency of opinion gives a lot more weight to the invalidity of the PR than if only a few people disagrees, don't forget to consider that. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 03 2010 19:12 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that I didn't even dispute the fact that flash should have been ahead in the PR then. I just claimed that the finals sucked. There was nothing special about them at all. Both of them played far below what they were capable of. Or do you dispute that JD did not look like he slept at all. Come now, I think even you can tell when somebody looks tired vs when they look focused. It has been clear that Plexa HATES Zerg players and for some reason idolizes Flash. It has been clear for a long time even. People have shown posts and chats of plexa himself saying he hates zerg players, and hates jaedong. CLEAR bias. Yet when I point out facts in favor of something in the past that you merely highlight and cannot dispute the accuracy of....that is bias as well? Game one of the finals was one of the highest level games I've ever seen. Your assertion that both players weren't playing well and that Jaedong somehow forgot to sleep the night before is hilarious. Just because the player you were cheering for lost, doesn't mean it was a bad series. On July 03 2010 22:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's not really anything new that Jaedong has more fans. Even when Flash was the obvious favorite coming into a game, Jaedong would get more votes. True, but passing this off a reason for those poll results is just being disingenuous. Not that Plexa should follow poll results anyway, but I think it is somewhat clear that most people do think that Flash and JD are misranked. On July 03 2010 23:23 o[twist] wrote: we'll know if plexa was right if jaedong continues to play better than flash this month Except the ranking isn't a predictive rank. Sure people tend to quiet down when a player who was on the rank performs up to expectations, but never has the PR been used as a prediction of the coming months. Everybody knows BW doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we'd have to put great on the PR after months where he sucked. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On July 03 2010 19:48 L0thar wrote: Hilarious thread. And useful too. When somebody asks why I think Jaedong has the worst fanboys, I could just link it and rest my case. Props to you who keep the discussion civil and arguments logical though, I know it's not always easy. If you have nothing to compare it to, that stance is groundless. It's ironic that you praise logical arguments. | ||
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Ideas
United States8097 Posts
On July 03 2010 13:19 koreasilver wrote: I highly disagree with comparing Effort to July. If there's a Zerg player that is comparable to July then it is Jaedong. July has been one of the greatest Zerg players to play the game but his success was due to how good his instincts were, not necessarily due to a layout of systematic decisions. July's methods couldn't be adopted by other Zergs because July's play could only be imitated by himself. Jaedong follows this vein as the style of ZvZ that he innovated couldn't be imitated by other Zergs for an extremely long time, and the same goes for his ZvT and ZvP. Jaedong is able to pull it off because he is Jaedong. Effort isn't really like this. Both him and Zero have a far more systematic and measurable way of playing. Their success comes from a more rudimentary and fundamental understanding and innovation rather than something of more pure instinct like Jaedong. plexa wasnt saying that effort was stylistically like july at all (which he isnt), rather that his career looks like it might be following a similar path. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 03 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 03 2010 23 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:23 o[twist] wrote: we'll know if plexa was right if jaedong continues to play better than flash this month except PR isn't supposed to be an attempt at fortune telling, but a reward for doing well the past month. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
At the time Oov lost those 5 games, was he no longer #1? At the time Jaedong got his butt spanked by Fantasy in the Proleague Grand Finals, was he no longer #1? Jaedong fangirls have been quick to call me a Flash fanboy (evidently, they didn't bother reading last month's Power Rank), but I have been quick to defend Plexa's choice for the very reason I bring up here. Arguments that Flash's skill has dropped are ridiculous. Arguments that none of his opponents (save perhaps Ruby) should have had a chance are ridiculous (Hiya is 15-7 in TvT in 2010 and played his best TvT ever; Baby is 12-7 in TvT in 2010 and played his best TvT ever; Really is erratic as hell in TvT, but is 9-1 in it on Match Point where he won; Free is #1 in PvT ELO right now; SkyHigh is #2 in TvT ELO all-time; and Effort is the defending OSL champion). What is true, and what is the only argument against Flash, is that other players are showing signs of learning his timings. But so far, only Free and Effort have been able to capitalize on that outside of ace matches, and both of them recently trained to face Flash in bo5's. However, I would be quick to point out that Flash and Jaedong and Oov and every other top superstar over the years has faced the issue of other players working out their timings. Top players continually evolve to stay on top. Just as how Jaedong went from being unable to play a halfway competent ZvP to save his life to being strongest in ZvP, Flash has been continually working on his timings. The evolution hasn't gone full stop and there hasn't been a regression. Top players are known for going into "mini-slumps" (that are not really slumps) after winning a Starleague just for this reason. And Flash has all too recently shown some of the greatest dominance ever in the history of SC. So long as Flash continues to advance in OSL and MSL, the "mini-slump" (that, again, is not an actual slump) is a complete non-issue. The truth is that if Flash had gone 3-0 over Effort and 2-3 against Jaedong, it would have been Jaedong at #1. I have full confidence that Plexa would agree. But that didn't happen. So Flash was given the benefit of the doubt. All this butt-hurt over a one rank difference has gotten totally out of hand. You'd think that Jaedong was the undisputed top gamer in all of SC. He isn't. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On July 03 2010 23:28 5unrise wrote: Yeah dude I get your point but the fact isn't that a minority of people disagree on it, but that a clear majority disagrees. This discrepency of opinion gives a lot more weight to the invalidity of the PR than if only a few people disagrees, don't forget to consider that. Every time a new Power Rank comes out, the people who flock to respond are the people who have a bone to pick. | ||
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baller
527 Posts
On July 04 2010 04:26 Mortality wrote: The truth is that if Flash had gone 3-0 over Effort and 2-3 against Jaedong, it would have been Jaedong at #1. I have full confidence that Plexa would agree. But that didn't happen. So Flash was given the benefit of the doubt. i doubt it. plexa was in love with flash's achievement so much that he wrote probably the most biased blog ever written in the history of TL writers, saying effort won OSL through luck not skill. he'd put flash #1 no matter what happened in those two finals as long as flash won 1 of them. i would agree -- flash deserved #1 there (even if he beat effort and lost to jd). u can justify all flash's losses with lots of text, but flash was very, very close to being dropped from the MSL. s2 was winning in their game and flash barely advanced. then all the pl losses, and its clear flash has slipped into a "mini slump." jd won every game but 1, a 40minute zvz. what more evidence do u need? from the responses to this and how much Plexa had to write (10 paragraphs lol) that he was straining and reaching for reasons to keep flash #1. oh well. i just hope the next time our PR writer has to make a close decision (i dont think this was a close decision lol), he chooses non-bias. do u not agree? if ur a fan of X and writing a rank that should be judged fairly, and u have to make close decision between X and Y, isn't it more responsible to pick Y, because u can assume u r biased to X? plexa has admitted himself he is a big flash fan. when in doubt, go against ur bias. this decision just makes PR look so bad and corrupt overall. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
And I'm growing very tired of people speculating on Plexa's character just because the Power Rank didn't go the way they wanted it to go. It's getting out of line. Most of you together haven't done as much for the community as he has. | ||
snowdrift
France2061 Posts
Flash goes 7-7, a mediocre record, still #1. You realize #2 for Flash would still be giving him considerable benefit of the doubt, given that other players have better records this month, including free, who beat him? And back then, Jaedong's enteritis was even used against him. You'd think that a very temporary illness should be ignored, but no, it's actually "the final nail in the coffin"! | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On July 04 2010 04:26 Mortality wrote: Arguments that none of his opponents (save perhaps Ruby) should have had a chance are ridiculous (Hiya is 15-7 in TvT in 2010 and played his best TvT ever; Baby is 12-7 in TvT in 2010 and played his best TvT ever; Really is erratic as hell in TvT, but is 9-1 in it on Match Point where he won; Free is #1 in PvT ELO right now; SkyHigh is #2 in TvT ELO all-time; and Effort is the defending OSL champion). What is true, and what is the only argument against Flash, is that other players are showing signs of learning his timings. But so far, only Free and Effort have been able to capitalize on that outside of ace matches, and both of them recently trained to face Flash in bo5's. ... Top players are known for going into "mini-slumps" (that are not really slumps) after winning a Starleague just for this reason. And Flash has all too recently shown some of the greatest dominance ever in the history of SC. So long as Flash continues to advance in OSL and MSL, the "mini-slump" (that, again, is not an actual slump) is a complete non-issue. ... All this butt-hurt over a one rank difference has gotten totally out of hand. You'd think that Jaedong was the undisputed top gamer in all of SC. He isn't. The stats can be wrangled to show whatever you want. I showed "pretty conclusively" that only about half the players Flash lost to have recently been showing vs Terran that would beat "good Flash", by defining "recently" as 10 games/two months. You take a combination of 2010 numbers and ELO and "show conclusively" that all of Flash's opponents were vs Terran aces. So the only thing to do is look at the actual results, for this actual month, which says: Flash is not winning ace games. He's not winning ace games against players he already beat. He's not winning against his closest challengers (free, EffOrt). He may have advanced in the MSL, but he did so by beating Classic and s2 - things any good Terran should be able to do, so all that proves is that Flash hasn't become bad. Flash's timings, or game sense, or tendencies, or whatever the case is, are being exploited so that players no more than decent are beating Flash on a regular basis. And the observant player could see this coming: i.e. his Proleague record in May. Everything indicates that this month Flash was nowhere near #1. Can we just admit that, to start with? Now, this is the Power Rank. We make allowances for more than one month. If Plexa had just said, "Okay, Flash had a bad month, I don't care because he's just off double-dual finals and he smashed Jaedong," I'm sure there would be some disagreement but you can't really argue with that. You can either agree or disagree, and that's about it. (I'd have disagreed, but accepted it.) Instead, Plexa went through an elaborate defense of Flash #1 which just doesn't correspond to reality. By defending a position with arguments which are flat ridiculous, Plexa set himself up for this kind of mayhem to ensue. And then you dismiss the difference like it means nothing? People grousing over #2 and #3 always amuse me. But number one is special. Number one is the invoking of god-status for the month. Objectively there may be more difference between #2 and #10 than there is between #1 and #2, but subjectively there's far more difference between the latter. Number One is the number of an expected champion. Number two is second best. The dictum of competition, especially at the professional level, is "win or go home", and #2 goes home just like #238, just a bit later. I'm not defending all the asinine comments made in the thread, but to get all surprised, "Number one is a big deal? Why?" is just silly. | ||
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Engdrew
United States890 Posts
On July 03 2010 10:26 Ideas wrote: omg rofl hiya went 11-3 and almost no one noticed  he belongs above effort really i agree. i was surprised that hiya wasnt even in CNBC he's in both leagues, albeit he qualifed with wins over shine + reach... as much as i like reach, hiya didnt have too much trouble getting past him and shine put up more of a fight clutch wins over some pretty good people in PL (forgg, flash, effort, calm...errr scratch calm hahaha) looking at the last PR (5/31) im pretty sure his win over flash wasnt taken into account last month really disappointed how flash is still #1...sorry to jump on the bandwagon, but i really dont think its very justified | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On July 04 2010 05:06 snowdrift86 wrote: Flash goes 7-7, a mediocre record, still #1. You realize #2 for Flash would still be giving him considerable benefit of the doubt, given that other players have better records this month, including free, who beat him? And back then, he even had the gall to use Jaedong's enteritis against him. You'd think that a very temporary illness should be ignored, but no, it's actually "the final nail in the coffin"! Despite Flash's losses, he still won as many games as anyone else in June, and against harder opponents than anyone else (not counting preliminaries, where opponents sucked anyway). You can argue that Jaedong should be ahead of Flash based on being indestructible in Proleague for 2+ months, but arguing that Flash belongs anywhere lower than #2 is ridiculous. Who exactly is supposed to take #2? Apart from three Proleague games, Free beat Canata and Calm in June. Is that supposed to impress anyone? Effort pretty much went 50-50, against mixed opposition. Fantasy won a lot of games, but pretty much all were against bottom-of-the-barrel opponents. Who else? I agree about the enteritis thing, though. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On July 04 2010 05:06 snowdrift86 wrote: Flash goes 7-7, a mediocre record, still #1. You realize #2 for Flash would still be giving him considerable benefit of the doubt, given that other players have better records this month, including free, who beat him? And back then, Jaedong's enteritis was even used against him. You'd think that a very temporary illness should be ignored, but no, it's actually "the final nail in the coffin"! That month in question is not an analogous situation. On the ranking given in March (March 1, 2010), Jaedong stayed as #2 despite not living up to expectations in the Winner's League. Statistically other people had much better February's, but Jaedong was the defending MSL champion. This was Jaedong's benefit of the doubt month. In the ranking given in April, Jaedong fell to 4th. This was two months after the MSL finals. Jaedong continued to fail to live up to expectations in Winner's League. Meanwhile you had MBC Heros rampaging their way through everyone. Why? Because of Sea and especially because of Light. Light was the undisputed MVP of Winner's League, ahead of Flash even. This being now two months after the MSL finals, do you think it was wrong for Light to be above Jaedong? The only "controversial" choice was putting Sea over Jaedong as well, but Sea was successfully performing clean-up duty over a difficult roster. I recall some people arguing that Sea should have been over Light as well. I don't recall much (if any) argument of Jaedong being too low. I'm not going to browse the whole thread of that month's PR to check. On July 04 2010 05:40 Musoeun wrote: Now, this is the Power Rank. We make allowances for more than one month. If Plexa had just said, "Okay, Flash had a bad month, I don't care because he's just off double-dual finals and he smashed Jaedong," I'm sure there would be some disagreement but you can't really argue with that. You can either agree or disagree, and that's about it. (I'd have disagreed, but accepted it.) Instead, Plexa went through an elaborate defense of Flash #1 which just doesn't correspond to reality. By defending a position with arguments which are flat ridiculous, Plexa set himself up for this kind of mayhem to ensue. It sounds to me like you'd be willing to accept my argument (or at least most of it) for Flash as #1, even if you would disagree. Is this correct? The thing is, based on a couple of short PM's I exchanged with Plexa, I'm pretty sure that he's thinking what I'm arguing. The problem is that he did a terrible job explaining it. He knew that his choice was controversial and so he tried to get defensive about it instead of sitting down and laying it out clearly. But even so, given the discussion at the end of last month's Power Rank, I'm pretty sure that even if Plexa had written out his argument very clearly and logically (which I reiterate is not what he did) it would have been heavily disputed. Edit: I didn't ignore the discussion of statistics because I didn't read or didn't care. I thought about it and decided that I want to comment on it after all. Certainly Flash is the favorite against just about any player of any race. My point was to show that these are strong or underrated vT players who were all well prepared for facing Flash and played their hearts out. It's as much a discredit to them as it is to Flash to say otherwise. Flash just tried to do his usual. and even though he played solid Starcraft, it wasn't enough. These other players deserve the credit for their wins, rather than saying the wins were a fault of Flash. | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
Except I would like to see Stork up there  | ||
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grax
United States41 Posts
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baller
527 Posts
if plexa keeps writing like this, why not make the PR once every 3 months then, because its pointless to have a monthly rank if ur going to change the standards to suit certain players staying on top. flash played shockingly bad at times. one or two games dropped maybe, but 0-5 or smth in ace matches is simply unacceptable. i would argue that its quite difficult for a #1 in the PR to play much worse -- can u even find any times in the past where the #1 PR guy played this bad and stayed #1? if ur going to keep flash at #1 after a performance like his this past month, why even bother writing a july rank, u should just write "flash #1 june july no matter what." this rank defeats the entire purpose of the feature and kills the credibility of all the previous PRs. | ||
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InTheFade
United States1721 Posts
I have a strong belief that the games a player loses tells you a lot more about his skill level than the games where he wins. Flash's losses indicate that he has no single weakness in his game I like how  Flash is the best when he wins and loses. With this kind of logic, he'll never drop out of the top spot.On July 04 2010 07:07 baller wrote: i think power rank should be more fluid. PR should be able to punish bad performances, especially from #1 player. if we wanted something that took into account games that happened two months ago, we'd look at the kespa ranks. if plexa keeps writing like this, why not make the PR once every 3 months then, because its pointless to have a monthly rank if ur going to change the standards to suit certain players staying on top. flash played shockingly bad at times. one or two games dropped maybe, but 0-5 or smth in ace matches is simply unacceptable. i would argue that its quite difficult for a #1 in the PR to play much worse -- can u even find any times in the past where the #1 PR guy played this bad and stayed #1? if ur going to keep flash at #1 after a performance like his this past month, why even bother writing a july rank, u should just write "flash #1 june july no matter what." this rank defeats the entire purpose of the feature and kills the credibility of all the previous PRs. Also, this. | ||
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