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On July 03 2010 13:10 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 12:38 Musoeun wrote:On July 03 2010 12:23 Mindcrime wrote:On July 03 2010 10:26 Ideas wrote:On July 02 2010 21:45 moochu wrote:
where's the hiya love? omg rofl hiya went 11-3 and almost no one noticed  he belongs above effort really I noticed. I also noticed that he was a complete baller. I would've kicked great off to make some room for hiya at 9 or 10. Gotta love it when people notice one player's good month and decide he's better than another player who did fantastic, just because. What about Stats? Can we kick Stats off and put HiyA on? Now that would make sense.  Stats went 6-4 in major leagues with his best wins against EffOrt, Kwanro, and ZerO.  HiyA went 7-3 in major leagues with his best wins against EffOrt, Calm, Flash and forGG. Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Plexa just completely forgot about HiyA. Not that Stats at #6 wasn't odd enough anyway, but still.
Stats best wins also include 3-0 Lomo and he's play was excellent in May as well meanwhile for HiyA May was atrocious.
On July 03 2010 13:44 Neverhood wrote:
I think the bias is pretty obvious just by reading Flash and Jaedong's paragraphs; JD's paragraph ismostly downplaying his record and performance, and Flash's defending his losses etc. And it didn't even mention his 0-5 record in ace matches which i would assume would play a huge factor in determining how a player is doing. I mean lets face it, with MSL/OSL only in its early stages, ACE matches in R5 should be considered the best wins or worst losses. I also think losing 2 ZvZs is alot more forgiving that losing 5 TvTs.
IMO:
1. Jaedong
2. Flash
3. Fantasy
and TBH i think the gap between 1 and 2 is greater than 2 and 3 (for this month).
You are the one who's extremely biased against Flash. You put big emphasis on rankings being for this month, and yet extend he's losing streak in aces way past this month saying that's a huge factor while completely ignoring 3-0 in the finals over JD which was one of the 2 most important events of the past couple months (and the other one including Flash too).
On July 03 2010 14:43 cemlions wrote:
I think, a clear understanding of the importance of individual criteria towards the ranking should be made.
It was made clear before on many different occasions. OSL/MSL > Other Ind. Leagues > SPL; BoX > Bo1; Level of play/opponents > statistics. It just some people don't bother learning about PR criteria or about PR at all till their favorite player has a hope for #1
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You are the one who's extremely biased against Flash. You put big emphasis on rankings being for this month, and yet extend he's losing streak in aces way past this month saying that's a huge factor while completely ignoring 3-0 in the finals over JD which was one of the 2 most important events of the past couple months (and the other one including Flash too).
Lol his 0-5 ace match record is this month.
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On July 03 2010 15:28 InRaged wrote:
Stats best wins also include 3-0 Lomo and he's play was excellent in May as well meanwhile for HiyA May was atrocious.
3-0ing lomo isn't such a huge deal these days unfortunately. While in May Hiya also probably threw away advancing in a series against free in order to play one of the most epic games i've seen in ages. his play in April was also pretty good, so i think 2 out of 3 months at least deserves some mention in CBNC.
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someone correct me if I am wrong, maybe there are rules for PR that I don't know or something.
imo, the way the PR works, not following a criteria so hard, is what makes it unique. if you try to be fair and coherent every month, you will need rules like the kespa ranking and then it won't be the good and human-like power ranking we have, which is based in the players recent performance and specially the feelings/vision the man in charge(plexa) have.
so, don't expect it to be statistically fair. it will never be and thats the good thing.
for instance:
- jaedong wins 2 games going 5 pool
- flash loses 2 games after being cheesed, but still showing S-class skills to survive way longer than expected.
in this case, kespa would give jaedong points accordingly to his opponents and would also remove flash points, while plexa could see how well flash performed and would still give him the first spot.
at the same time, plexa could not have noticed how well flash performed...
so, basically, get easy on plexa. its hard to make a PR based in your feelings and vision and still fair to the majority of the people here.
if you disagree, it's ok to say what you think, but there is a lot of people being too harsh.
+ Show Spoiler +and what the hell do I have to do with it? I just don't like to see it happening. lol
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Poor arguments for #1 vs #2 although Flash might still deserve top spot. Where is HiyA ?
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Good to see that other people also miss hiyA.
He did great this month, I was really impressed by his solid play.
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lol not going to get into either side of the argument but has the PR ever been this bad on how Plexa did? I haven't been around for them all but this one seems to have most of everyone in this thread bashing Plexa on his biasness (which I have to agree with to extent).
I do think some people need to chill a little bit bias or not Plexa is going to do what he wants and bashing him is really only going to get you banned.
Hopefully the next PR isn't as bad as this one and hopefully plexa doesn't forget about Hiya! 
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Snow, just another Proleague sniper? It's sure looking that way.
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On July 03 2010 06:40 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 04:08 dogabutila wrote:On July 02 2010 21:57 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On July 02 2010 15:56 dogabutila wrote:On July 02 2010 10:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Whether I disagree with him or not, I've always been struck by Plexa's consistency, and I think he's doing a good job. Insulting him simply because you disagree with the order of names on a list is childish. On July 02 2010 10:10 Waxangel wrote:
I'm kind of annoyed with this ranking because the criteria is not consistent enough with the past editions of power rank. In the past PR has been based very much on recent results, even the ones Plexa has written. It's kind of jarring to see it abruptly change to "overall power rank over unlimited period". I know you think that your somewhat snarky quoting served as a sort of rebuttal, but I stand by what I said. As far as I can remember, Plexa has consistently used the current and previous month to make his ranks. Maybe to everyone's consternation, and maybe he's never outlined his particular rubric, but that has always seemed to be the case when I read his PRs. Wax's "unlimited period" is simply just exaggeration. Despite the surreality making it easy to forget, Flash did 3-0 Jaedong in the MSL just days prior to the month in question. Sure, maybe Plexa always errs on the side of Flash, and I may personally disagree with his final decision, but they're still relevant results, in my opinion. Relevant enough that all of the caterwauling and bloodlust in the comments is unjustified. Riiiight. I love how MSL wins only count when flash wins them. When jaedong rapes the shit out of flash it doesnt mean anything. If you think this PR still has relevant results, then I am glad you are not doing PR either. Also you need to start watching starcraft again. In all seriousness, it seems like you're being unreasonably spiteful, and I think perhaps you need to take a break for a bit to calm down. The January PR was exactly what I was referring to about Plexa's consistency, i.e., he used Flash's 2-0 over Jaedong in the OSL from late December as more relevant data in the direct comparison. Saying "Jaedong rapes the shit out of flash" referring to that MSL final is more than a little loaded and incorrect. Not only that, but the results and games of this most recent MSL are far more in line with your colorful terminology than the previous MSL. At least you're consistent, however:
Not really. Both players played the best they could. Jaedong won handily. When they both are playing the best they can, jaedong is better. On averages, an average flash is better then an average jaedong. It's pretty clear to anybody that when Jaedong brings his A game, that focused, deathglare type of game that he is unstoppable by anybody. It is also quite clear that it is easier for flash to keep up a higher level of play then jaedong.
On February 01 2010 08:34 dogabutila wrote:
There is just no way that flash should be over JD. JD destroyed flash in the finals. Game 1 was simple. Game 2 was wtf greater spire, otherwise he wins easily. G3 he destroyed flash. G4 he destroyed flash. WL he outplays flash and doesnt research consume.
2-2 vs flash even taking out the power outage game where he was ahead far and away.
The two games flash won were not by his own strength but because JD made a mistake.
It would not have been surprising to see all of those games go to JD at all. So, how is it possible to say that flash is better then him? Cause flash can beat other players who are not as good? JD can beat them too. Lets not forget him destroying #6 Kal.
Demolishing the #1 player and #6 player and finishing #2 does not make sense when the #1 player hasn't done the same against anybody in the top 10 power rankings.....
Cool bolding. What was the point? Are you debating that he did not outplay flash, or that flash was behind and won because of a JD mistake?
About the December OSL, Flash 2-0 Jaedong Show nested quote +On February 01 2010 11:00 dogabutila wrote:On February 01 2010 10:54 Redshirt wrote:On February 01 2010 10:51 dogabutila wrote:On February 01 2010 10:24 Redshirt wrote:On February 01 2010 08:34 dogabutila wrote:
There is just no way that flash should be over JD. JD destroyed flash in the finals. Game 1 was simple. Game 2 was wtf greater spire, otherwise he wins easily. G3 he destroyed flash. G4 he destroyed flash. WL he outplays flash and doesnt research consume.
Why are these justifications for anything? The better player ALWAYS wins and it just happened that Flash won his games in Winner's League and that game on Ultimatum because at the end of the day Jaedong played worse (forgetting consume is a massive mistake and don't assume it isn't). Jaedong won the MSL finals and that simply means he was the better player that day but really they're more or less at the same level. In a normal day, JD wins unless he makes a huge game ending mistake. How often do you think that happens? I dunno, it happened during the OSL Ro8 when Jaedong got loving smashed by Flash on Fighting Spirit. Did you see that game? It wasnt a normal day. It's pretty much the mental equivalent of G4 MSL. You could tell how tired and worn out he was in the booth pregame just watching the camera flick on to him. This last MSL: Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 01:36 dogabutila wrote:
Boring finals. Looks like JD didn't get any sleep. Nothing special from either player.
// Looks like plexa got an excuse to keep Flash #1 on power rankings now. Really now.. you're doing the same things you accuse Plexa of doing, and your bias is overwhelmingly obvious. How are the MSL finals results irrelevant? Because it happened two days prior to a cut-off that will benefit your favorite player? Again, I reiterate: Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 10:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Indeed. Everyone tends to gerrymander the results to their favorite player's advantage (i.e., last month does/doesn't count, month before last does/doesn't count) in these discussions. Jaedong fans have done it nearly every single month ("it's a monthly Power Rank!"). Plexa's doing it now. Taking into account the current and the last month in that order of importance seems to be the most consistent. Anything else would mean far too much fluctuation and leads me to believe that most people don't actually know what they want from this rank. The latter half of the PR already fluctuates wildly enough.
So what exactly are you disputing? That I am biased? No. To show that you have to show that what I said is not true. Anybody can dig up old posts in support of something. So what exactly did I post that you dispute? That the finals sucked because they consisted of flash 14cc // jd 3 hat. Flash attacks with marines // JD has 0 units and loses (x3) or because that was something special?
The funny thing is that I didn't even dispute the fact that flash should have been ahead in the PR then. I just claimed that the finals sucked. There was nothing special about them at all. Both of them played far below what they were capable of. Or do you dispute that JD did not look like he slept at all. Come now, I think even you can tell when somebody looks tired vs when they look focused. It has been clear that Plexa HATES Zerg players and for some reason idolizes Flash. It has been clear for a long time even. People have shown posts and chats of plexa himself saying he hates zerg players, and hates jaedong. CLEAR bias. Yet when I point out facts in favor of something in the past that you merely highlight and cannot dispute the accuracy of....that is bias as well?
Oh, and just because somebody thinks that jaedong did better then flash in a given month does not make them a jaedong fan, or is biased. Because you know, when the writer has a clear bias towards one player and against another...chances are sometimes he is wrong. I've consistently weighted recent play much more strongly then play farther back, because a bad player on a hot streak is still technically more powerful (and worse to run up against) at that time then a good player doing average is.
//ad hom attack fail huh?
Again, I'll ask you. Disregarding names.
On July 02 2010 19:36 dogabutila wrote:
Would you bet your life on a 50% player in a BO1, BO3 or BO5?
You'd probably want somebody who did a little better right?
So the only reason you would want that 50% player is because he is flash. Yet when flash does not play like flash....you don't have anything.
Sigh. Anyway.. Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:44 Iplaythings wrote:
Am I the only who noticed the sudden, or well not sudden, spring of haters of KT and Flash (probally hates the former because of the latter)? I know some people hated him for his conservative playstyle. Haters gonna hate. My preferred theory is that they were cowed into silence by Flash's indisputable results, and now that they are disputable, they're coming out to.. dispute. And how. For example, it seems as if many voices who accepted Flash did so only begrudgingly, and have turned on him now that they can get away with it. 
Uh, way to show your own bias. More accurately, when flash does well people agree that he deserves the #1 spot. When he does poorly (as now) and other players do better, reasonable people cannot understand how he can still be ranked higher then better performing, currently stronger players. Plexa has a clear, documented, unreasonable bias against zerg players and against jaedong in particular. He would do anything possible to keep him off #1 power rankings (as seen here), saying that other people only accept flash begrudgingly is laughable when it clearly is the other way around.
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On July 03 2010 19:02 blade55555 wrote:lol not going to get into either side of the argument but has the PR ever been this bad on how Plexa did? I haven't been around for them all but this one seems to have most of everyone in this thread bashing Plexa on his biasness (which I have to agree with to extent). I do think some people need to chill a little bit bias or not Plexa is going to do what he wants and bashing him is really only going to get you banned. Hopefully the next PR isn't as bad as this one and hopefully plexa doesn't forget about Hiya!
JWD's SKT wishrank was pretty similar. This one is completely ridiculous though. JWD just saw SKT players as being better than they actually were (lol thezerg), but Plexa's rank is "I hate everyone on Oz with a passion." Quoted directly from TL attack btw.
Oh yeah, and that insane Effort/zerg hate blog doesn't help Plexa's case here either.
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On July 03 2010 19:12 dogabutila wrote:
Not really. Both players played the best they could. Jaedong won handily.
I can only assume that you haven't watched the Nate MSL finals.
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On July 03 2010 16:14 Neverhood wrote:Show nested quote +You are the one who's extremely biased against Flash. You put big emphasis on rankings being for this month, and yet extend he's losing streak in aces way past this month saying that's a huge factor while completely ignoring 3-0 in the finals over JD which was one of the 2 most important events of the past couple months (and the other one including Flash too). Lol his 0-5 ace match record is this month.
Well. I don't have anything to say in defense of my miscount there, then. I think I'm getting slowly consumed by blind Flash fanboism lol :>
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Hilarious thread. And useful too. When somebody asks why I think Jaedong has the worst fanboys, I could just link it and rest my case. Props to you who keep the discussion civil and arguments logical though, I know it's not always easy.
On July 03 2010 19:10 J1.au wrote:
Snow, just another Proleague sniper? It's sure looking that way.
I was just going to write it. He may be good enough to take down players busy with individual leagues, but he fails terribly when he has to hold his own in them. In his supposedly bonjwa matchup lol. Add his atrocious at worst and bellow average at best PvP and PvZ and you get...another overhyped player.
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I just want to comment a little on the number 1 spot.
This is the second PR in a row where Jaedong has been placed one spot lower than he deserved imo. You defend Flash's spot this time by looking at how he has performed in recent past, yet you have screwed Jaedong twice because he performed bad on a single day.
He is 19-5 in May and June! If we ignore that one day in the MSL finals he is 19-2. I know it's not really fair to simply ignore some of his losses, but it goes to show that other than the MSL finals he has lost 2 games.
The first loss was to Calm in a Bo5 that he won. The second loss was to Yellow. That was an epic zvz where he got an early BO disadvantage, but managed to stay in the game for another 30ish minutes.
I know it's not a win-loss rank, but to completely ignore records is just wrong imo.
I also think it's worth noting that Flash retained the number 1 spot in the PR after losing the last MSL final to Jaedong.
If you are going to argue that you should look at the whole, then why did Jaedong fall to third in May after a guy that wasn't in the PR in April. He also fell to forth in March even though he was second in February while Light was 7th in February and Sea wasn't even on the PR that month.
On July 02 2010 00:55 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
Plexa unveils the first every bi-monthly power rank to make up for a Flash slump. Yet when Jaedong had a terrible month ( tlpd stuff) he retained number 2 :O!?
First of all his record back then was better than Flash's record now. Second he only got placed at number 2 not at number 1. Third his loss against Stork has been considered one of the best games of the season. Come to think of it his loss against Yellow now is considered one of the best games of the season. If how you lose is so important then these losses is more favorable to JD than any of Flash's losses is to him.
Btw. I really think Hiya deserves to be in this PR. HiyA is 7-3 the last month according to the TLPD. Sure he has dropped games to Soulkey, Nada and Gorush, but he's taken games from Flash, Effort and Calm. Maybe he shouldn't be in the PR, but at the very least he deserved a CNBC.
Edit: W/e, Jaedong will continue playing well and grab the #1 spot next month
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On July 03 2010 19:19 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 19:12 dogabutila wrote:
Not really. Both players played the best they could. Jaedong won handily.
I can only assume that you haven't watched the Nate MSL finals.
I dunno, I actually watched that live. Jaedong read flash like a book throughout that series, and dropped a game because he decided to go guardians instead of continue muta harass.
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It kind of seems like a terrible idea to have a single person in charge of the PR. Of course it is going to be prone to favouritism - nobody is really 100% objective. I know that my judgement would always be clouded by fanboyism, or I would overcompensate by ranking my favourite players lower than they deserve. Best solution would be to have the mods cast a vote for PR IMO, that way the fanboyism would average out and we would be left with something a little more close to subjective. Add in shared ranks (e.g. Flash/Jaedong at 1, next person at 3) and you could remove most of the drama out of the PR. Of course some people think the drama is what makes it fun and interesting but personally I'm much more interested in accuracy.
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On July 03 2010 20:25 Goragoth wrote:
It kind of seems like a terrible idea to have a single person in charge of the PR. Of course it is going to be prone to favouritism - nobody is really 100% objective. I know that my judgement would always be clouded by fanboyism, or I would overcompensate by ranking my favourite players lower than they deserve. Best solution would be to have the mods cast a vote for PR IMO, that way the fanboyism would average out and we would be left with something a little more close to subjective. Add in shared ranks (e.g. Flash/Jaedong at 1, next person at 3) and you could remove most of the drama out of the PR. Of course some people think the drama is what makes it fun and interesting but personally I'm much more interested in accuracy.
If you want accuracy check out the ELO and the KeSPA ranking. Both rankings use numbers only and are not influenced by opinion. However KeSPA places more weight on individual leagues and ELO on "streakyness".
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On July 02 2010 01:51 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Poll: Does Flash deserve #1?No (122) 71% Yes (49) 29% 171 total votes Your vote: Does Flash deserve #1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Decide
On July 02 2010 01:36 Fenrax wrote:Poll: Who deserves #1 on PR this month?Jaedong (154) 63% Flash (92) 37% 246 total votes Your vote: Who deserves #1 on PR this month? (Vote): Flash
(Vote): Jaedong
I think these polls shows that this month's power-rank is not about objectivity, but about the rank-maker's own fanboyism. Opinions show a clear inclination towards Jaedong's #1, I wonder why?
*edit: sorry to break the format
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It's not really anything new that Jaedong has more fans. Even when Flash was the obvious favorite coming into a game, Jaedong would get more votes.
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On July 03 2010 22:40 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:51 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Poll: Does Flash deserve #1?No (122) 71% Yes (49) 29% 171 total votes Your vote: Does Flash deserve #1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Decide Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:36 Fenrax wrote:Poll: Who deserves #1 on PR this month?Jaedong (154) 63% Flash (92) 37% 246 total votes Your vote: Who deserves #1 on PR this month? (Vote): Flash
(Vote): Jaedong
I think these polls shows that this month's power-rank is not about objectivity, but about the rank-maker's own fanboyism. Opinions show a clear inclination towards Jaedong's #1, I wonder why?
So the PR isn't super objective assessment of each players form for the last 30 days that everybody agrees upon? Oh the horror, the horror...
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EPT
