[Opinion/IPL4] Much Ado About Nothing - Page 9

Well, the upset was bigger. Illusion is a korean american, that's like Select.
Sure, he did well, but he isn't the first male doing well in SC2.

Scarlett on the other hand is real special. She won a qualifier to get to IPL4 (so no afirmative action).
She is the first female doing that, the first female to win a round at a big tournament, the first female to beat an korean progamer and to make it even more against the odds, she isn't even korean herself.

That's why she gets the hype.

This matters why? Comparing him to Select is dumb because correct me if i am wrong but wasn't Illusion born in America and has lived in America his whole life, meanwhile Select was born in korea lived there during his childhood then moved to America for school hence why people call him an Korean.

edwardy3ap

Malaysia5 Posts

April 20 2012 17:50 GMT

#163

It seems to me that Illusion is a pretty bad ass player. Hope to see more from him in coming tournaments. Illusion fighting!

ElMacedonian

United States79 Posts

April 20 2012 17:52 GMT

#164

gogogo illusion, gogogo forighners, we are not out of this yet, have faith my friends. and even if we loose at least we get to see some wicked play!

CosmicSpiral

United States15275 Posts

April 20 2012 17:55 GMT

#165

On April 21 2012 02:26 ragz_gt wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 21 2012 02:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:

On April 21 2012 02:00 ragz_gt wrote:

On April 21 2012 01:57 CosmicSpiral wrote:

On April 21 2012 01:39 Dakure wrote:

On April 21 2012 00:59 FuzzyJAM wrote:

On April 21 2012 00:34 Nourek wrote:

On April 21 2012 00:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
It's pretty ridiculous to say "Think of all the foreigners who didn't show up to the event, that explains it!!" when at best 1/5th of the top Koreans showed up.

Of the top 44, 19 were in code S and another 11 were in code A. I'm not sure how that translates to "at best 1/5th of the top Koreans showed up."

Just over 1/2 the current GSL is obviously a lot and clearly the very cream of the crop was well represented, but the Korean scene is far larger than GSL. There are so many "B teamers" that would be favoured against most of the best foreigners that I think it's a reasonable thing to point out. That's where I'm getting my 1/5th from - the Korean scene isn't just Code S/A any more than the foreigner scene is Stephano/Naniwa/Sen, i.e. the only foreigners who have shown ability to compete in those tournaments recently.

So if I understand this correctly, you're extending "best Koreans" to cover koreans in Code S, Code A, and some (albeit top-level) Code B? So sure, maybe 1/5 of the top Korean scene showed up, but of that 1/5, around 25% were Code S players--the very VERY best of the Korean scene. 1/5 of the top koreans but ~66% of the absolutely best Koreans (as defined by GSL-rankings).

Code S and Code A do not represent who is the "absolute best" of the Korean scene. There are plenty of Code B players who are good enough to replicate the same performances at IPL4.

While there certainly people who hangs on in Code S / A, the overall talent gap between Code S / Code A is significant, and the gap between Code A / Code B is huge. While there are Code B player that could do pretty well, if you replace all Code S/A player in IPL4 with Code B players, I'd be very surprised if they did half as well.

It only appears significant in the GSL, which is a circular argument when it comes to skill. There is a large gap between Code S and Code B just based on overall experience and presence and a smaller gap between Code S and Code based on luck of the draw and composure. The gap between Code A and Code B is nonexistent because Code B is just the players who did not pass the Code A qualifiers. And there are a lot of Code B players who outclass current Code A players.

That is true for lower Code A / top Code B. However, the disparity within Code A itself is huge, and within Code B is much larger. An average Code B player is not a proper match for average Code A player and stands little chance against top tier Code S player, this is pretty obvious if watch a lot of KR ladder stream.

Perhaps the disparity within Code A is huge because it is not a proper designator of skill at all and it is drawing from two pools of talent, so obviously there will be a gigantic discrepancy between the very worst and the very best. This just proves how silly it is to rely on the Code S/Code A/Code B mythos.

If I used KR ladder stream as my basis for determining skill, then Nestea would not crack the top 50 of the Korean professional scene.

Dr. Henry Killinger

United States23 Posts

April 20 2012 17:56 GMT

#166

Koreans did well, no surprise. I disagree that it was "embarrassing" to have this happen at a foreign tournament. Koreans play the same game everyone else does, they have no advantage other than practice. If foreigners want to win tournaments they need to practice more...

DYEAlabaster

Canada1009 Posts

April 20 2012 18:05 GMT

#167

Honestly the biggest problem of IPL4 was the fact that the sheer depth and magnitude of the tournament went woefully underrepresented by the organizers.

I felt I was watching the same 16 players over and over and only heard (or saw on Liquidpedia) the amazing results that foreigners were pulling. And I'm super active about realizing results.... so that made me sad.

teknotrance

61 Posts

April 20 2012 18:12 GMT

#168

the write up seems to be more synonymous every time I read one to another. the pattern is seemingly the same every single paragraph. too many fillers. I don't know if I'm reading a narration or overview of the event.

Arachne

South Africa426 Posts

April 20 2012 18:13 GMT

#169

This was amazingly written. Thank you

MrLefty15

United States3 Posts

April 20 2012 18:27 GMT

#170

Awesome article by tree.hugger. I totally missed Illusion's play, now I wished I hadn't. ;(

raga4ka

Bulgaria5679 Posts

April 20 2012 18:36 GMT

#171

People should get used to seeing korea dominate the world in SC . Just like China dominates everyone in table tennis . When a sport is accepted in a country to the level of a national sport you will see that country dominate the others . The effort put in by koreans far more exceed that of the rest of the world . Single talents will eventually get swept away with time if they don't keep up with the koreans ever developing skills . And this isn't even half as worse as it will get when KESPA switches full-time to SC2 . The skill gap won't get any worse then it was in BW at least .

masakenji

Australia415 Posts

April 20 2012 18:37 GMT

#172

i disagree with this opinion.

Hiea

Denmark1538 Posts

April 20 2012 18:46 GMT

#173

On April 20 2012 20:46 SenorChang wrote:

Show nested quote +

Squirtle is a motherfucking badass

The dude has a 70% win rate in PvZ and 75% win rate in PvP IN KOREA
He will play his ro16 matches in GSL next thursday, with 2 other protosses in his group. You should check it out

yea, who is this guy?!
Educate yourself fool

also: Top EU guys do not compare to MMA, MC and Nestea (except stephano who was there, and naniwa who probably could've been there if he wanted)

I knew who Squirtle was, but his never achieved anything untill recently, he 3rd at IEM WC 2010, other than that, his just been average Code A, i'm not saying his bad, but his not got anywhere near the following any of the other koreans in pool play who have become very popular.

And if you actually look at the amount he played, its below 30 for PvP, and he never really beat any big names (he beat HerO and Oz, but that was in May 2011).

His doing well now, but he hasnt done anything in the past, and you can't argue against that.

This is what happens with good players in Korea, they are overshadowed by the top guys.

ArchDC

Malaysia1996 Posts

April 20 2012 18:59 GMT

#174

Nice that Illusion and Sase getting some much deserved appreciation!

pullarius1

United States522 Posts

April 20 2012 19:05 GMT

#175

Hey all, I don't usually try to piggyback on front page posts, but a did a mathy breakdown of the IPL4 field for ESFI here: http://esfiworld.com/feature/flexner-stat-corner-ipl-4s-stacked-field.

A similar issue that I have been pondering is how down people get on foreigners in Code S. I heard a lot of pooh-poohing of NaNiwa at the beginning of this season, saying as a foreigner he would of course do terribly. Actually, non-Koreans have pretty solidly outperformed what you would expect EVEN IF the standard of success was as high as "Code S Caliber." Even after Huk, Sen, and Idra washed out in so short a time, Foreigners still had a winning record in Code S, and had a slightly better than 50% chance of getting through each stage.

stichtom

Italy695 Posts

April 20 2012 19:05 GMT

#176

David Ting ‏ @dting888
We will be revamping our tournament system for #IPL5. Thank you @TeamLiquidnet for helping me with my decision.

Mystgun

Hong Kong311 Posts

April 20 2012 19:06 GMT

#177

I think the streams were fine and showed the games that people would care about. If you had known ahead of time that Scarlett and Illusion were going to make great runs in the open bracket then it's not a bad idea to give them some bandwidth on the stream. They certainly should've had more coverage after those runs were made but nobody would know before hand that those would turn out to be great games.

Rising stars are always interesting, but I think the majority of the people who attend these events go to meet their favorite players, many of whom happen to be Korean. As such, one can expect press coverage to focus mostly on the high-profile players.

As you rightfully call out, White-Ra and IdrA seeds were most likely awarded based on popularity of the players and less so on their actual competitiveness in the tournament. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with that as 1) IPL4 is still a revenue-generating event and popular players will increase viewership/attendance 2) there is an open seed for a "worthy" foreigner to climb through the ranks.

I don't agree that it is a numbers game at all - NASL has its share of diversity and it's always 2 Koreans who make it to the finals.

D_K_night

Canada615 Posts

April 20 2012 19:10 GMT

#178

I'm of mixed thoughts regarding the article and the various arguments it's representing. However it does say many things which are fair.

Success stories are one thing, I agree with this part. There should absolutely be more stories regarding the underdogs, but people didn't write those stories, because the open brackets weren't televised. The problem with this is, if there are only so many limited segments of the tourney which can be televised, how would anyone know which is newsworthy, and which is not?

Let's take the Scarlett story as an example. There was no way to know in advance, how well Scarlett would have done. If Scarlett was eliminated and early, then there would have been no story to report. But given the result, then there's something to be written(but as to why we can't, with the information we already have, is a different topic).

Point I'm trying to make is, it's a whole new set of challenges on determining/predicting what's a success story and what isn't. It seems to me more, that we're trying to find these diamonds in the rough that we can write up as David vs Goliath stories, but in piecemeal situations. And that's basically looking at not the winners, but the up-and-comers. But again - how is the tourney itself, to position that visibility to an audience who just wants to see games from the best of the best? You have a finite amount of time to cast this or that. How do you make that choice?

I think it's also an attitude shift from the audience which may need to happen as well; not always celebrating the winners, but looking at the people who didn't make it, not as losers, but as people who...we celebrate on their own merits. And this means completely ignoring the fact that they didn't win any prize money(it's not the point).

farside604

Canada127 Posts

April 20 2012 19:13 GMT

#179

I think alot of good points were brought up here especially that the foreigner invites had not been selected properly. I mean IPL 1 and 2 were a long time ago and really shouldn't have any bearing on current tournaments. The Koreans certainly wouldn't invite Fruitdealer to a trounament just cause he won the first GSL event.

TumNarDok

Germany854 Posts

April 20 2012 19:16 GMT

#180

On April 20 2012 21:39 LunaSea wrote:
Am I on the MLG Business / PR section ?

Ok, IPL did some mistakes with the stream and so but it certainly doesn't deserve this :

Show nested quote +

Well, if you REALLY think about it, then MLG did the exact same thing on their last championship(s).
2 days of almost exclusively group play of the same 16-24 invitees, and the 2 extra streams behind the pay wall.

However! This is what sells best to the majority of the fans so thats why these companies do it like that.
It is surely good for the businesses of the host organisation, it is surely not good in order to replace those names from 2007 (lol ReKrul threads) with new fresh blood and faces.

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