EPTYou don't need all this dancing around. If you want to see foreigners win, then turn StarCraft 2 events into pro wrestling and pay the Koreans to lose. That's really what some people seem to be asking for.
[Opinion/IPL4] Much Ado About Nothing - Page 11
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
You don't need all this dancing around. If you want to see foreigners win, then turn StarCraft 2 events into pro wrestling and pay the Koreans to lose. That's really what some people seem to be asking for. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:20 oxxo wrote: That's some backwards logic. So because there were Koreans in open brackets it becomes harder to get in? Isn't that the whole point though? That foreigners were not skilled enough to get in? I don't get this whole obsession with rationalizing and scheming for 'foreigner pride'. Instead of talking about how to change tournament formats/seeds or to exclude Koreans or to put quotas... why not talk about how to bring up foreigner skill level? It'd be a whole lot more productive. that isn't going to accomplish the goal. We need set that thought aside of "bringing up foreigner skill level" - god knows they are trying their very best and they are training the best they can. The point where their skill is "maxed out" - only the individual would know this...we need to just work what what we have. what would be MORE productive is doing a drastic format changeup. In addition to the quota(which really, is already going to be happening), is something easily as simple as requiring the Korean to win more than the Foreigner in order to take the crown. It's not unfair to the viewer with some creative spin on it. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:28 coverpunch wrote: I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you want us to do a better job of hyping up the underdog or just rig the games so that foreigners win? You don't need all this dancing around. If you want to see foreigners win, then turn StarCraft 2 events into pro wrestling and pay the Koreans to lose. That's really what some people seem to be asking for. we're not paying anyone to lose here. that's illegal, and would hurt everyone concerned. we're simply asking that the format is switched up to favor the foreigners slightly more. we're simply looking for a more interesting story than always seeing koreans win all the time, or seeing too many of them when the viewers are asking for more foreign representation(regardless of whose skill is greater). | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I'd like to try to clarify a few things, because I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough. nbd. First off, I really enjoyed IPL. It was a fun event, the quality was amazing, and they clearly worked extremely hard to pull it off. Occasionally I use words like 'silly', but it's not about assigning blame or saying that the people who work for IPL are idiots. Clearly they're not, and I think I understand a lot of the decisions they made. Similarly, I don't believe foreigners are as good as Koreans, and while, yeah I wish they were, I'm under no delusions. My real point is that foreigners have actually gained ground (slowly) since MLG Columbus and IPL3, and that sometimes results can't be measured in terms of wins or high finishes. That's especially the case when the tournament structure is set up this way. But I do think the foreign scene is deeper and stronger now that it's been since IdrA left Korea and Jinro last made the semi-finals of the GSL. So to combine those two points; my main idea was to look at the foreigner failure of IPL4. When I really looked into it, it seemed to be that foreigners had actually done quite well, relatively, and I set about explaining why that happened. My article then devolves into three points: the why foreigners didn't finish highly, the how we didn't know about it, and the what we didn't know. I absolutely think that IPL was a fun event, that Koreans still have an obvious edge, and that the only thing to do about it is to keep working at it; not to rig the event. I'd prefer to have no invites at all, frankly. But my main point is a little boring; it's mainly that there's no crisis, and that by staying the course and just redoubling our efforts as a community, we're in pretty decent shape. Thanks! | ||
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cmgillett
United States335 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:34 D_K_night wrote: we're not paying anyone to lose here. that's illegal, and would hurt everyone concerned. we're simply asking that the format is switched up to favor the foreigners slightly more. we're simply looking for a more interesting story than always seeing koreans win all the time, or seeing too many of them when the viewers are asking for more foreign representation(regardless of whose skill is greater). foreigners should just get better, problem solved. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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negativedge
4279 Posts
But the other problem is simply logistics. IPL and MLG run tournaments with HUNDREDS Of games played in a three day period. There's no way to cover all of that, no way for even hardcore fans to watch even a significant fraction of the games, no time for stories to develop, and an unenviable and inevitable string of lopsided brackets and unpredictable clusters of players doing well on one side while another is jammed with sloppy high master NA players. It would be really nice if these tournaments could be more broken up and spread out, even if that means holding large portions of them online. | ||
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Kiwiandapple
Belgium240 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:46 tree.hugger wrote: Hi, thanks for everyone's comments. I'd like to try to clarify a few things, because I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough. nbd. First off, I really enjoyed IPL. It was a fun event, the quality was amazing, and they clearly worked extremely hard to pull it off. Occasionally I use words like 'silly', but it's not about assigning blame or saying that the people who work for IPL are idiots. Clearly they're not, and I think I understand a lot of the decisions they made. Similarly, I don't believe foreigners are as good as Koreans, and while, yeah I wish they were, I'm under no delusions. My real point is that foreigners have actually gained ground (slowly) since MLG Columbus and IPL3, and that sometimes results can't be measured in terms of wins or high finishes. That's especially the case when the tournament structure is set up this way. But I do think the foreign scene is deeper and stronger now that it's been since IdrA left Korea and Jinro last made the semi-finals of the GSL. So to combine those two points; my main idea was to look at the foreigner failure of IPL4. When I really looked into it, it seemed to be that foreigners had actually done quite well, relatively, and I set about explaining why that happened. My article then devolves into three points: the why foreigners didn't finish highly, the how we didn't know about it, and the what we didn't know. I absolutely think that IPL was a fun event, that Koreans still have an obvious edge, and that the only thing to do about it is to keep working at it; not to rig the event. I'd prefer to have no invites at all, frankly. But my main point is a little boring; it's mainly that there's no crisis, and that by staying the course and just redoubling our efforts as a community, we're in pretty decent shape. Thanks! Was pretty clear to me! Thanks for pointing it out tho; loved this article aswell so, keep it up! | ||
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aruken
France348 Posts
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Overall, Koreans went 70--14 in b03 series. This is an 83.33% winrate. If we subtract all "Foreigner Unknowns", the list drops to 34-14. I defined "unknown" basically by unrecognizable names or those that had no TLPD/past tournament history, but it's certainly possible I overlooked a people. (None of the "unknowns" had wins vs Koreans however.) Scarlett is not an "unknown" for all intents and purposes. Select and Illusion were counted as Foreigners, not Koreans. That is a 70.83% winrate. Theres a high chance my count is off by a few matches, but I believe I was pretty close in counting, enough so that the winrate of Koreans is probably somewhere around 67%-73% or 80%-85%. Of course, this list is pitting people like Nony vs Leenock, and I'm not sure we would consider Nony a top foreigner at the moment, but I still think it's interesting to look at regardless. | ||
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Kiwiandapple
Belgium240 Posts
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JohnnyYen
United States313 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:54 aruken wrote: get over yourself, ipl 4 was great show and if the foreigners suck compared to korean it is because they do not train enough. And also people do not like to watch 1 year old macro/micro when they can watch player on the front field. End of story. You didn't read what I just wrote above.  | ||
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how
United States538 Posts
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how
United States538 Posts
On April 21 2012 07:41 tree.hugger wrote: You didn't read what I just wrote above. tree.hugger, you're awesome. Don't worry about the guys that can't take the time to read anything longer than a meme. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
I think it would go a long way to have an article of featured players every week. Say 2 from Korea, 1 from US, and 1 from EU. Maybe some of their plays in tournaments, maybe replays when possible, maybe interviews when possible, or just bios and a collection of whatever saved things we can find. Part of the reason I think that it's not interesting when a ton of koreans win is frankly, to a lot of foreigners Korean x or korean y winning are the same thing. It's not remotely fair and it's blatant ignorance, but it's the same ignorance that leads a lot of people to assume that the korean players are all just mindless robots. The koreans that have the most fans and interest are the ones that really stand out, OR the ones that are on foreign teams that get a ton of attention for being there (or being flat adorable). As a community I think we can find ways to give more attention to them, and while we're at it, address some of the "where the hell is the talent in the rest of the world?" by trying to provide more content and things on our end to help us identify with them and attach. I think at every level that could be done more and help multiple problems. -The sound and video problems really hurt IPL day 1 and 2 I think. It's funny when you compare it to an IPL that flat didn't have Starcraft2 playing almost the first whole day that still did enormously better, but it doesn't change that people in general are extremely impatient about lag, bad audio, bad video, and random audio and scene changes. Especially when they happen off and on for a full day and a half. -I love Kevin Catspajamas Knocke, but frankly IPLs caster staff was subpar relative to most other events. I don't know how else to say that. They've seemed very very set on having their list of casters, and then one or two guests for the past few IPLs now, and moreover, their casters aren't involved in other tournaments that give them the spotlight more, both lowering their image because they're not getting exposure, and keeping them from fixing some of their casting issues that maybe experience would fix (or more experience would show that maybe the problems some of the casters have with fans not liking them aren't fixable; whichever). -I think there have just been too many damn tournaments lately. I think the scheduling system is strange and tournaments really need to communicate with eachother. I'm fine with them competing, but when we have an MLG qualifier, then next week we have a _____ then the next week we have IPL4 while Pax is going on, then the next week we have MLG arena, then the next week we have I don't know what, maybe a full week break before another tournament (dreamhack?), all the while Code A Code S GSTL NASL and Ironsquid have and are going on...it's just too much. And then we have six weeks of gap. Or we have the period during winter and january or wherever it is that nothing happens for like two and a half months. But then we dive back into tournament tournament tournament. even if they're my favorite players, I don't want to see that many tournaments that often, it's just too much too often too fast. its overloading. - I'd like to go back to the first point, instead of just putting it int he paragraph right below because...I dont know, and say, I think teams could do a lot better of a job on the foreign scene with their players. Sure the argument is there that "well even if I do put out replay packs or interviews not many people are going to bother watching it"; you could at least do it though. "but we do do it we post it on our site and on facebook (which you then have to like to get to see anything)"; great. put it in a social medium that people actually go to in the community. And some teams of course, do, and do a great job of it, but...most dont. I think it'd be great to have more open qualifiers and for tournaments to really focus on the open bracket a little more at the lower level to introduce players that are there or even interview them at the beginning of the tournament JUST to get their faces out there and get people to latch on to them a little. I also think eventually it's going to be necessary for big name foreigners to start hosting more open qualifiers for their teams. I think the razer academy thing and complexity camp or whatever it's called are really interesting, and a possible way to get a lot more attention to lower names (and no-names), and possible ways to even look at recruitment. Either way the media around it is important. And either way I think eventually foreigners that are big are going to have to shit or get off the pot so to speak, from just a pure money stand point if nothing else. In the end I think there's a lot of room for "fixing" the issue at every level. There are definitely more solutions than just "well foreigners need to not suck". It's just up to people and the community to actually do it, in a way that's interesting, and preferably a way that people can see. I know that's already happening, but, more more more, always more. Except tournaments, holy hell. Seriously better spacing please, for everyone's sake. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On April 21 2012 06:34 D_K_night wrote: we're not paying anyone to lose here. that's illegal, and would hurt everyone concerned. we're simply asking that the format is switched up to favor the foreigners slightly more. we're simply looking for a more interesting story than always seeing koreans win all the time, or seeing too many of them when the viewers are asking for more foreign representation(regardless of whose skill is greater). It's only illegal if it's in the context of a professional league and gambling, because you're cheating other competitors and fans. But if you're talking about a single event where you want it to be fixed and it's not an actual competition, then whatevs. It's not a real competition but you seem to prefer a dramatic ending and a victor of your choosing. Like pro wrestling, it would be "entertainment", not sports. You're paying the players to put on a show, not compete with each other. I mean, you're talking about changing the rules so that Koreans can't win. I'm just talking it whole hog to make it fair. You're leaning a direction where the competition becomes insidiously unfair because you're making life harder on just Koreans so that a non-Korean has a better chance of winning. It'd be one thing if you wanted to segregate out some people, say Code S players, on the ground that they're too good. But to just lump them all together and make life hard for anyone with a Korean passport sounds really unfair. | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10346 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On April 21 2012 10:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote: We need a new elephant in the room article, about what it really means to actively root against koreans, and lump themselves together as "foreigners." That's what a lot of you are doing. If you're not rooting for your favorite non-korean player, you're rooting for whatever foreigner is left in the tournament, because he is not korean. Then you see comments like, "Aww, this is boring, only Koreans left." You're all scared of the SC2 scene becoming what the BW scene became: no foreign scene and untouchable korean scene. A smaller proportion of people, based on their comments in LR threads, seem to just be unknowingly racist. A lot of you actually appreciate quality gameplay, and are fans based of certain great pros based on that. They'll root for Naniwa, Steph, DRG, Parting, etc. But then the scene is still bogged with people just rooting against koreans. I really like that idea for an article. Personally I don't consider those people fans of Starcraft (the ones that are against watching Koreans and against Koreans winning). I don't know what I consider them but I find those attitudes disgusting so I try to just ignore them as best as possible. I wish I could write something like that but it would take me far too long gather all my thoughts and organize them half-decently, and also avoid sounding like a troll as much as possible at the same time. Hopefully a decent writer has the same thoughts and steps up to the plate though. =D | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On April 21 2012 07:02 1Eris1 wrote: Just for added discussion, I went ahead and added the overall head to head series together. Overall, Koreans went 70--14 in b03 series. This is an 83.33% winrate. If we subtract all "Foreigner Unknowns", the list drops to 34-14. I defined "unknown" basically by unrecognizable names or those that had no TLPD/past tournament history, but it's certainly possible I overlooked a people. (None of the "unknowns" had wins vs Koreans however.) Scarlett is not an "unknown" for all intents and purposes. Select and Illusion were counted as Foreigners, not Koreans. That is a 70.83% winrate. Theres a high chance my count is off by a few matches, but I believe I was pretty close in counting, enough so that the winrate of Koreans is probably somewhere around 67%-73% or 80%-85%. Of course, this list is pitting people like Nony vs Leenock, and I'm not sure we would consider Nony a top foreigner at the moment, but I still think it's interesting to look at regardless. That's a Flash percentage there. | ||
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