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October Revolution - Page 9

Forum Index > News
392 CommentsPost a Reply
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Tommylew
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Wales2717 Posts
November 15 2011 11:33 GMT
#161
well written, cannot wait to see how all three do in the next few weeks!!!
Live and Let Die!
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
November 15 2011 11:35 GMT
#162
I love idra playin whack a mole casually on the NA server
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10984 Posts
November 15 2011 11:46 GMT
#163
On November 15 2011 19:22 BrosephBrostar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 19:10 Velr wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:44 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:29 Velr wrote:
On November 15 2011 17:43 BrosephBrostar wrote:
The idea that winning is the direct result of hard work is something that makes Starcraft seem like a legitimate sport. Claiming that you can win with mentality like some kind of Saturday morning cartoon only makes the game seem like a fraud. By winning these tournaments Idra et al. are killing esports.


And it's still not true in TONS of sports.

Is Usain Bolt really training that much more or trying that much harder then everyone else? No, he isn't.
Is/was Michael Phelps just working harder to Swim the fastest? Don't be kidding.
Is Messi the best Football player because he trains more? For sure not.

Talent and Mentaility are BIG and important things that often outdo raw work ethic.


I don't think any Olympic champion would agree that state of mind can make up for training and effort.


I don't think any would disagree.
Why do people have "offdays" when not being ill and in theoretically perfect physical shape?
Why is the best Skier that dominated the whole season suddenly failing at the most important event?

Sorry... "Hard Work" is important... But it's not everything, by far not...

Yeah, the best guys on average train as much as they should/can whiteout hurting themselves... Are they all training the best/smartest way of all the atlethes? Some probably do, others for sure don't but still win more or do way better than they "should".



Competition just doesn't work that way. Good state of mind can make a good athlete better, but it won't make someone who doesn't work hard a winner. This isn't a question of training efficiently, it's comparing people who train in a professional environment to people who practice by playing against amateurs for a few hours a day.


Where did i say that?
All i said is that "working the hardest" won't make you a winner alone, not even nearly.


Working the hardest is not even necessarily a good thing if not done in a really smart way...
WigglingSquid
Profile Joined August 2011
5194 Posts
November 15 2011 11:49 GMT
#164
I hope not to appear as a hater but, regarding Stephano, it should be pointed out that self-reporting is not exactly reliable.
That said, I do think that a "train more" mindset is not necessarily as good as a "smart" training mindset (as in, focused training where the player actively endeavors to improve), while SC2 koreans seem to be aiming merely for the first.
I would be more careful about the whole "foreigners finally topping koreans", however: we need to see more players playing each other and more matches, because we are currently judging based on tournaments where koreans are very scattered and playing against very unfamiliar opponents.
SoniC_eu
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark1008 Posts
November 15 2011 11:51 GMT
#165
Nice article
In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure. http://da.twitch.tv/sonic_eu
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
November 15 2011 11:57 GMT
#166
Yeah, I'm just going to have to totally disagree with this.

You provide an example of three players. Three. Comparing player numbers, I believe Koreans are something like 5,000% more successful than foreigners in the pro scene. No, that's not an exaggeration, that's really how much more successful they are and that's even with the fact that, contrary to the foreign scene, pretty much all the top Korean RTS talent is not even playing SC2. Foreigners do not compare to Koreans overall. There are maybe 5-10 foreigners who won't be laughably unfavoured against the top Koreans. Almost all foreign pros have shown themselves to be sub-Code A level; i.e. not even top 75 in Korea, even with their multitude of free Code A spots that they've squandered. The gap between the foreign and Korean scene is utterly huge, that's just a fact and four tournaments don't change that.

So why are Koreans so, so much better than everyone else? To rule out the practise house entirely is just silly. You provide three examples that argue your case that it isn't primarily the practise. One of them is in a Korean house, one of them lived in one for years and is moving back to Korea for the superior practise, and one of them. . .well, fair enough, you have one good example. Huk is known to play even more than the Koreans (when he can) and talks about the travel hurting him and is the most successful foreigner. How are you talking about him as evidence of your claim in this article? Idra has himself said he has gotten worse (comparatively) after leaving the Korean scene and is moving back with the simple reason being he wants to improve. Stephano, again, I admit is a fair example. However, he is such an exception that we can simply call him an anomaly and be done with it.

There's an argument to be made that Koreans play too much. You can argue that mentality is huge important. That is pretty obvious, I think. That doesn't change the fact that the Korean model is far, far more successful than any foreign model. Maybe the Korean model can be improved upon - play 8 hours a day instead of 12 or something - but it is still a large reason for their success. To say it's simply mentality is to go against the facts. That would rely on the idea that foreigners play much worse against Koreans or Korean play much better against foreigners. This is simply not the case if you watch Koreans vs. Koreans and foreigners vs. foreigners - the same gap in play that is demonstrated in Koreans vs. foreigners is utterly apparent when they're playing within their own circle.

It isn't that foreigners are simply mentally weaker, it's that they are almost all worse players in almost every facet of the game.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
aTo
Profile Joined September 2011
Austria588 Posts
November 15 2011 11:57 GMT
#167
hahaha
thats exactly how huk would act in war xD
2 guns - pew pew pew
zap zap zap
BrosephBrostar
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States445 Posts
November 15 2011 11:59 GMT
#168
On November 15 2011 20:46 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 19:22 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On November 15 2011 19:10 Velr wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:44 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On November 15 2011 18:29 Velr wrote:
On November 15 2011 17:43 BrosephBrostar wrote:
The idea that winning is the direct result of hard work is something that makes Starcraft seem like a legitimate sport. Claiming that you can win with mentality like some kind of Saturday morning cartoon only makes the game seem like a fraud. By winning these tournaments Idra et al. are killing esports.


And it's still not true in TONS of sports.

Is Usain Bolt really training that much more or trying that much harder then everyone else? No, he isn't.
Is/was Michael Phelps just working harder to Swim the fastest? Don't be kidding.
Is Messi the best Football player because he trains more? For sure not.

Talent and Mentaility are BIG and important things that often outdo raw work ethic.


I don't think any Olympic champion would agree that state of mind can make up for training and effort.


I don't think any would disagree.
Why do people have "offdays" when not being ill and in theoretically perfect physical shape?
Why is the best Skier that dominated the whole season suddenly failing at the most important event?

Sorry... "Hard Work" is important... But it's not everything, by far not...

Yeah, the best guys on average train as much as they should/can whiteout hurting themselves... Are they all training the best/smartest way of all the atlethes? Some probably do, others for sure don't but still win more or do way better than they "should".



Competition just doesn't work that way. Good state of mind can make a good athlete better, but it won't make someone who doesn't work hard a winner. This isn't a question of training efficiently, it's comparing people who train in a professional environment to people who practice by playing against amateurs for a few hours a day.


Where did i say that?
All i said is that "working the hardest" won't make you a winner alone, not even nearly.


Working the hardest is not even necessarily a good thing if not done in a really smart way...


My point is that working hard is absolutely necessary to be a champion in any legitimate sport and suggesting otherwise like OP is makes SC2 look like a farce.
Deleted User 81929
Profile Joined June 2010
243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 12:04:22
November 15 2011 12:01 GMT
#169
--- Nuked ---
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
November 15 2011 12:02 GMT
#170
Amazing read; Very well thought out.
This made me think about practice structure in a new way.
As well as maybe check out that book that unslumped idra.
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
eDifana
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden11 Posts
November 15 2011 12:05 GMT
#171
Very nice read, ty!
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
November 15 2011 12:06 GMT
#172
I'd be interested to know more about Stephano's training method, especially what he means by "dedicated training".
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9071 Posts
November 15 2011 12:08 GMT
#173
love it, TL is on a major roll this week
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
BrosephBrostar
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States445 Posts
November 15 2011 12:11 GMT
#174
On November 15 2011 21:01 dTox wrote:
Amazing article, incredibly well written and overall inspiring. Thank you for this OP! :D:D:D

Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 20:57 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Yeah, I'm just going to have to totally disagree with this.

You provide an example of three players. Three. Comparing player numbers, I believe Koreans are something like 5,000% more successful than foreigners in the pro scene. No, that's not an exaggeration, that's really how much more successful they are and that's even with the fact that, contrary to the foreign scene, pretty much all the top Korean RTS talent is not even playing SC2. Foreigners do not compare to Koreans overall. There are maybe 5-10 foreigners who won't be laughably unfavoured against the top Koreans. Almost all foreign pros have shown themselves to be sub-Code A level; i.e. not even top 75 in Korea, even with their multitude of free Code A spots that they've squandered. The gap between the foreign and Korean scene is utterly huge, that's just a fact and four tournaments don't change that.

So why are Koreans so, so much better than everyone else? To rule out the practise house entirely is just silly. You provide three examples that argue your case that it isn't primarily the practise. One of them is in a Korean house, one of them lived in one for years and is moving back to Korea for the superior practise, and one of them. . .well, fair enough, you have one good example. Huk is known to play even more than the Koreans (when he can) and talks about the travel hurting him and is the most successful foreigner. How are you talking about him as evidence of your claim in this article? Idra has himself said he has gotten worse (comparatively) after leaving the Korean scene and is moving back with the simple reason being he wants to improve. Stephano, again, I admit is a fair example. However, he is such an exception that we can simply call him an anomaly and be done with it.

There's an argument to be made that Koreans play too much. You can argue that mentality is huge important. That is pretty obvious, I think. That doesn't change the fact that the Korean model is far, far more successful than any foreign model. Maybe the Korean model can be improved upon - play 8 hours a day instead of 12 or something - but it is still a large reason for their success. To say it's simply mentality is to go against the facts. That would rely on the idea that foreigners play much worse against Koreans or Korean play much better against foreigners. This is simply not the case if you watch Koreans vs. Koreans and foreigners vs. foreigners - the same gap in play that is demonstrated in Koreans vs. foreigners is utterly apparent when they're playing within their own circle.

It isn't that foreigners are simply mentally weaker, it's that they are almost all worse players in almost every facet of the game.


So, you want to refute the writer's 3 page, in-depth article with 3 paragraphs of what you call 'facts' with no relevant source or actual 'facts' to back it up, rounded off with a lame 'statement' you probably only concluded after being part of the SC scene for the last 6 months. Cool story mate.


I'll refute it in 3 sentences. How many players have made code S without experience in the Korean training model? Zero.
Mr Showtime
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1353 Posts
November 15 2011 12:12 GMT
#175
On November 15 2011 15:55 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 15:45 Amlitzer wrote:
I didn't think nudity was allowed on TL?

are you serious? dont you know the picture from somewhere?


........ it's a joke
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
November 15 2011 12:14 GMT
#176
Shemale stephano, fucking lol xD
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
IndoorSpawningPool
Profile Joined July 2011
United States99 Posts
November 15 2011 12:18 GMT
#177
Poor Puma :'[

Killed by his teammates... and without pants.
I build two drones in time of peace, and two in time of war. I build two drones before I build two drones, and then I build two more
LunaSea
Profile Joined October 2011
Luxembourg369 Posts
November 15 2011 12:21 GMT
#178
In my opinion if you can't be at the top while training (a lot) more than foreigners than the games has a lesser skill cap than expected.
"Your f*cking wrong, but I respect your opinion" --Day[9]
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 12:22:43
November 15 2011 12:22 GMT
#179
On November 15 2011 21:01 dTox wrote:
Amazing article, incredibly well written and overall inspiring. Thank you for this OP! :D:D:D

Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 20:57 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Yeah, I'm just going to have to totally disagree with this.

You provide an example of three players. Three. Comparing player numbers, I believe Koreans are something like 5,000% more successful than foreigners in the pro scene. No, that's not an exaggeration, that's really how much more successful they are and that's even with the fact that, contrary to the foreign scene, pretty much all the top Korean RTS talent is not even playing SC2. Foreigners do not compare to Koreans overall. There are maybe 5-10 foreigners who won't be laughably unfavoured against the top Koreans. Almost all foreign pros have shown themselves to be sub-Code A level; i.e. not even top 75 in Korea, even with their multitude of free Code A spots that they've squandered. The gap between the foreign and Korean scene is utterly huge, that's just a fact and four tournaments don't change that.

So why are Koreans so, so much better than everyone else? To rule out the practise house entirely is just silly. You provide three examples that argue your case that it isn't primarily the practise. One of them is in a Korean house, one of them lived in one for years and is moving back to Korea for the superior practise, and one of them. . .well, fair enough, you have one good example. Huk is known to play even more than the Koreans (when he can) and talks about the travel hurting him and is the most successful foreigner. How are you talking about him as evidence of your claim in this article? Idra has himself said he has gotten worse (comparatively) after leaving the Korean scene and is moving back with the simple reason being he wants to improve. Stephano, again, I admit is a fair example. However, he is such an exception that we can simply call him an anomaly and be done with it.

There's an argument to be made that Koreans play too much. You can argue that mentality is huge important. That is pretty obvious, I think. That doesn't change the fact that the Korean model is far, far more successful than any foreign model. Maybe the Korean model can be improved upon - play 8 hours a day instead of 12 or something - but it is still a large reason for their success. To say it's simply mentality is to go against the facts. That would rely on the idea that foreigners play much worse against Koreans or Korean play much better against foreigners. This is simply not the case if you watch Koreans vs. Koreans and foreigners vs. foreigners - the same gap in play that is demonstrated in Koreans vs. foreigners is utterly apparent when they're playing within their own circle.

It isn't that foreigners are simply mentally weaker, it's that they are almost all worse players in almost every facet of the game.


So, you want to refute the writer's 3 page, in-depth article with 3 paragraphs of what you call 'facts' with no relevant source or actual 'facts' to back it up, rounded off with a lame 'statement' you probably only concluded after being part of the SC scene for the last 6 months. Cool story mate.

I'm sorry for assuming people actually follow StarCraft II. If you like, I'll list some facts.

March: 4 foreign invites, 1 gets through Code A
July: 1 foreign invites, 0 get through Code A
August: 4 foreign invites, 0 get through Code A (also, one of the only two foreigners to earn their GSL spot without getting any advantages for being a foreigner is knocked to Code B)
October: 4 foreign invites, 0 get through Code A
November: 2 foreign invites, 0 get through Code A

So we've seen 15 foreigners get invited because of their performance in the foreign scene and one success. That one success was living in a Korean pro house, so I'm not sure how it's an example of a Korean pro house not being a huge advantage.

Would you like more facts? Or are you going to criticise me for not typing enough when your attempt to refute my post was to insult me and reply with two sentences?

I'm sorry, but you have to be utterly in denial to not realise that Koreans are vastly more successful in SCII than foreigners, which is only compounded by the fact that the best Korean RTS players aren't even playing yet and the total player base is far smaller than the foreigners.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
PopcornColonel
Profile Joined March 2011
United States769 Posts
November 15 2011 12:23 GMT
#180
Epic Picture! I loved it, great read, and great illustrations.
Zerg delenda est.
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