Banner by disciple. Pictures from playxp. Video from Blizzard Korea.
Amidst the hype and earthshattering clashes that our very own TSL promise to deliver, let’s not forget that within hours of this post, the GSL is rounding up their fifth successful season as the world’s premier Starcraft 2 tournament. The two heavyweights this time around are once again no strangers to the big stage. The lineage of BW progamers carries on in GSL March as oGsMC and ST_July butt heads for the title of GSL March Code S champion.
July’s first GSL Code S finals happened as quickly as it possibly could. Only entering the field from Open Season 3, July won his chance at Code S in January and never looked back. July has always said that he wanted to show how scary a person from Code A is, and he did just that. With relentless aggression, July disposed of MVP, Clide, NaDa, and anypro, definitely not a list of easy opponents. The question on everyone’s mind surely is "Can July replicate his success from BW?". With anyone else as his finals opponent, possibly. But with oGsMC, it’s a whole different story.
MC. Min Chul. The Protoss President. He didn’t earn that title from gathering enough votes from dedicated and loyal Starcraft 2 fans. MC is the best Protoss in the world because he’s hungry for a second GSL title in the span of three months. MC is synonymous to Protoss massacre with his 10-1 record for GSL March. MC is feared and respected because his game is perfect (or so he says). Now MC will hope to become the first player to win 2 GSL titles and while it won’t be easy, MC exudes such confidence that no other player can equate. Spectators will need to adjust accordingly to our first GSL finals without a Terran, and there is a high chance that will be long forgotten as all eyes lay on one of the biggest PvZs of the year.
MC4-1 - Much as I love him, July is not one of the best zergs in the GSL at all. Moreover, he has had a cupcake of a draw so far, and will see his first serious challenge here. He's not up to it. MC is the better player, and the better prepared player. No fear, MC easy.
MC4-2 - In their previous games against each other MC has looked in total control. July might catch him off-guard a couple of times, but I don't see a bo7 victory. PvZ is MC's least played and statistically worst matchup but he's only ever played Nestea and July. MC should to be the first to take multiple GSL titles.
MC4-1 - I feel like July has only figured out his "hyper-aggressive" style for ZvT. His ZvP games that we've seen so far this season haven't been the greatest, and definitely leave a lot to be desired. However, I'm generally wrong with these sorts of predictions so here's hoping that July will prove me wrong and beats MC in amazing games.
Goooo July. Sorry MC And no, I don't want to fight about who will win, I support July lol And I like the logic of MC = March Champion Too bad it starts at 7:00 AM...fml but the finals will will be badass...I hope :D
Wasn't there an OSL Finals where a super powerful on fire Protoss that was uber hyped met a supposedly "cake walk" bracketed, "over the hill" Zerg and got trounced....
He will show everyone the difference between a top tier, legendary progamer, and a really good player. Sorry MC, their is no way you can win this. MC's skill is up their for sure, but July will come out with everything, the mind games, macro, micro... domination.
I REALLY hope July has something up his sleeve for these matches, because its going to be completely one sided otherwise... Nonetheless, I think these will be the best finals, because lets face it, July always has something up his sleeve, lol.
I can't decide who to root for. Can they both win? It would be totally amazing and awesome for July to pull this one off, it would make him the first bonjwa (was July considered a bonjwa?... Golden Mouse winner anyways) from BW to take a GSL. Also, I'm a zerg so I find it hard to root against the Zerg. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is more deserving of being the first to take 2 GSLs than MC. This guy is total baller, total awesomeness. I love MC! Oh man, so torn. Both fighting!!!!
On March 19 2011 04:50 Zeddicus wrote: I can't decide who to root for. Can they both win? It would be totally amazing and awesome for July to pull this one off, it would make him the first bonjwa (was July considered a bonjwa?... Golden Mouse winner anyways) from BW to take a GSL. Also, I'm a zerg so I find it hard to root against the Zerg. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is more deserving of being the first to take 2 GSLs than MC. This guy is total baller, total awesomeness. I love MC! Oh man, so torn. Both fighting!!!!
Exactly, and that is why this is going to be such an amazing finals, because whoever wins the fans win.
This should be a great final after two roflstomps. Two aggressive players with full bags of tricks. I absolutely cannot wait. July has my full support!
Holy cow, never thought someone could make such an epic SC2 hype video
For predictions, my brain says MC as he's simply too good of a protoss, all balance aside - he's a more refined player than July.
What I hope however, and what my heart tells me, is that I want an epic 4-3 win for Julyzerg, to show that you can indeed do it with zerg and that July shows that he's back in old shape.
I want July to win. Not just because it'll make IdrA look silly for saying Zerg was unplayable, but because July's tendency to randomly flip the "I'm just going to fucking kill you now" switch and leave it on is exciting to watch.
Think I am more pumped for this than any of the previous GSL finals (excluding possibly the 1st one since it was well.. the 1st one.) REALLY hope July makes a good showing, im am not really worried about july losing MC getting stomped 4-0 but I cant really say the same for july, even though I kind of hope he wins after an epix 3-4 series.
tree.hugger seriously thinks July had a "cupcake of a draw" so far? How can you even say that since he took out MVP, NaDa, Clide and anypro? That's almost as tough a path as they come. He had to face the defending GSL champ, the Terran that Tastosis hails as one of the best Terran players in SC2, a SC1 legend who has proven himself in SC2 and a Protoss who has consistently provided solid results every season despite not actually picking up his own title. July is much better than some people give him credit for and I'm rooting for July because he's my second favorite BroodWar player and he plays Zerg like me! :-D
July got to where he is because he's been playing semi-all-in against players who over extend themselves. Normally over extending is OK in most games because, aggressive as Koreans are in their play, they can get away with it. Not against July.
MC will realise this. MC will not over-extend himself. He's going to play perfect. He's just going to go in and crush July. It's not going to be pretty. Hell, even PvZ is imba in P's favour these days.
Sorry July. And yeah July won't get far when his opponents will learn not to die to all ins.
At tastosis's suggestion, I went back and re-watched the group stage match between MC and July on Xel'Naga Caverns. It was actually terrifying how hard MC owned. MC 4-1.
The one and only God of War has this! well probably not, but i wont stop believing. Min Chul is just a random scrub, deservedly named suicidetoss and everyone predicting his win wl eat their words! well again, peobably not, but my faith in the god of war os unshaken, so there!
That guy is just...freaking baller man. Whos your biggest rival ? - No one Why is your gameplay superior to other players? - Since its perfect At least that what i understood from his "interview" you posted here :o
Set 1: <Metalopolis> MC Set 2: <Crevasse> July Set 3: <Terminus RE> MC Set 4: <Crossfire SE> MC Set 5: <Shakuras Plateau> July Set 6: <Scrap Station> July Set 7: <Xel'Naga Caverns> MC
If you include "special events" in MC's profile, (this will include the Gisado All-Starz events) MC is actually 8-3 versus Zerg with an 8 win streak, with only games against NesTea, July, and FD, bringing him to 3-1 against July, 3-2 against NesTea, and 2-0 against Fruitdealer, arguably the top 3 zergs (with IdrA and Losira). PLUS His two losses were back when NesTea won the Finals and MC was still very shaky.
Also the TLPD links them to their BW pages, should probably fix that :p MC is not 1-9
Also internesting that Metal and Shakuras are more even PvZ records and bring longer games than the new giant maps. Sad to see Shakuras being taken out, it gave the longest average games.
Oh wow, can't be more pumped after watching this! Really. Anyways, hope July takes this. Can't really see him winning vs MC, he's just so solid, and zergs tend to struggle vs toss now, but still rooting for July and only him! If some zerg can win this, it is July. I'm amused at how many people don't give proper credit to him, it's just absurd.
Oh wow, can't be more pumped after watching this! Really. Anyways, hope July takes this. Can't really see him winning vs MC, he's just so solid, and zergs tend to struggle vs toss now, but still rooting for July and only him! If some zerg can win this, it is July. I'm amused at how many people don't give proper credit to him, it's just absurd.
Because people seem to think that NesTea's smart, strategic, macro play is better than July's all-in style aggression, which is arguably more exciting, but it doesn't display all the 'skill' that NesTea's 4 bases in 8 minutes style macro.
On March 19 2011 05:28 phanto wrote: "MC = March Champion" blew my mind. How can anyone think anything else now?
In that case, July wins in July? Har har...
my prediction: MC wins but July takes at least 2 games, doing better then TSL_Rain :x
He does, all his OSL wins are in July....
I hope I blew your mind.
July (Z) over BeSt, BackHo, Luxury (Ever April 2008 – July 2008) July (Z) over GooDFriend, XellOs, GoRush (2005 Ever May 2005 – July 2005) July (Z) over Reach, iloveoov, Silent_Control (Gillette April – July 2004)
On March 19 2011 04:22 HeIios wrote: MC is gonna roll July, like he rolls everything else. He just wins at life, and while I adore Julyzerg he is not quite at the level of Min-chul.
On March 19 2011 04:15 Lovedrop wrote: <div style="padding-left: 20px">tree.hugger - MC4-1 - Much as I love him, July is not one of the best zergs in the GSL at all. Moreover, he has had a cupcake of a draw so far, and will see his first serious challenge here. He's not up to it. MC is the better player, and the better prepared player. No fear, MC easy.</div>
Clide, Nada, MVP, and anypro constitute an easy draw?
I think MC will win but comments like "Moreover, he has had a cupcake of a draw so far," from the writers prediction I don't understand, he has beat many great players.
Should really put a list of the common timezones for the people that frequent this site, seeing as how its a foreigner site.. It's not that hard to convert it from KST but really, accommodating your target audience is going back to the basics boys...
If July can take the first game and make MC lose his confidence, he definitely can win. If MC wins the first 1-2 games, I don' think he is stoppable anymore.
I wonder who MC's practicing against to prepare for July. Not many Zergs play like July - the closest would probably be FruitDealer in terms of unpredictability and aggressiveness, maybe Kyrix as well. I hope MC's on good terms with them so he gets good practice partners, because July definitely has some great Toss players such as Ace and Squirtle to practice with.
On March 19 2011 06:45 mesohawny wrote: Should really put a list of the common timezones for the people that frequent this site, seeing as how its a foreigner site.. It's not that hard to convert it from KST but really, accommodating your target audience is going back to the basics boys...
Well maybe you should know the basic features of the site, as the calendar has this.
On March 19 2011 04:15 Lovedrop wrote: <div style="padding-left: 20px">tree.hugger - MC4-1 - Much as I love him, July is not one of the best zergs in the GSL at all. Moreover, he has had a cupcake of a draw so far, and will see his first serious challenge here. He's not up to it. MC is the better player, and the better prepared player. No fear, MC easy.</div>
Clide, Nada, MVP, and anypro constitute an easy draw?
Clide is not good, Anypro is not even close to MC, MVP is amazing, and NaDa is great, but he played pretty badly compared to his normal TvZ
On March 19 2011 04:24 mucker wrote: July only loses finals matches to bonjwa terrans, sorry MC.
But July only wins Finals in July... I guess it will be a tie
BTW Drone Drills don't work anymore, sadly no Bisu faces
i play protoss but I'm rooting for July I just think something exciting gonna happen when July plays He will 6 pool you, He will bane bust you, He just do anything lol
All I'm hoping for is a close series ^^ Though I think I'm obliged to support Zerg, just as supporting the Zerg in GSL finals seems to be a winning formula :D
I'm really pulling for MC here. Being the first player to win two GSLs in a row would be so damn awesome. The guy has attitude, charisma, and talent. I want him to become the premier SC2 star.
Pretty stoked for this, I don't know if it's just me but this seems really hyped! July was a really good Brood War player and MC is arguably the best SC2 player at the moment.
Staying up till 2 a.m. tonight will NOT be a problem what so ever for me.
To premium users: as there will be a lot of viewers, from your past experience, do you think the HD stream will be lag free? I've never watched a gsl final live, if you already watched one, how was it?
Ugh too many July supporters crowding out the real hero. July has had his time to shine, its now MC's turn to rock! Btw Kratoss is not the God of War, he's the one that slays Ares. So 'nuff said.
On March 19 2011 10:26 gds wrote: To premium users: as there will be a lot of viewers, from your past experience, do you think the HD stream will be lag free? I've never watched a gsl final live, if you already watched one, how was it?
Lets hope we get insane matches and the last one goes to the point where all the minerals are mined out!(but in that case it would be a zerg victory more often than not right: ).
This match up is highly promising. Question is has July improved enough to take games off MC?
I seriously do hope this isn't as 1-sided as season 3 and 4 finals. 4-3 or 4-2 would be nice to watch.
Both the free and premium streams have been good and coherent in the past for the finals. Their servers only get caught off-guard when they underestimate how popular someone's games will be (e.g. HuK's up/downs).
On March 19 2011 08:23 nurle wrote: I cant help but mention that MC was such a insanely big failure in BW. Switches to Sc2, and suddenly he is the best... lOl
cant help but mention boxer was a God in BW and switched to SC2 to do average. Its a different skillset and right now the game rewards the players who understand their matchups. Both of these players understand their MUs as well as anyone so it should be a good series
On March 19 2011 08:23 nurle wrote: I cant help but mention that MC was such a insanely big failure in BW. Switches to Sc2, and suddenly he is the best... lOl
cant help but mention boxer was a God in BW and switched to SC2 to do average. Its a different skillset and right now the game rewards the players who understand their matchups. Both of these players understand their MUs as well as anyone so it should be a good series
MC is 11 years younger than boxer. Boxer is way past his prime and MC is about as good as he is ever gonna get. The best starcraft 2 players have yet to play starcraft 2. The players that are doing well in the GSL are either mediocre broodwar players or legends past their prime
On March 19 2011 11:18 Steel wrote: I hope MC smashes July and his gimmicky style.
I always have a hard time with this. Is the game like at 3am the 19th or the 20th in the EST?
How is July's style gimmicky? Because he 6-pools? Because he's agressive?
On topic, I hope this series is more competitive than most people say it's going to be, I think July will have a chance if he can keep MC off balance. Easier said than done though.
i'm predicting 4-3 July. Even though he is one of my heroes, I felt like he was past his prime, especially watching him last season. As I watched him this season, I was constantly expecting him to lose to strong and more formidable players. However, he blew my fucking socks off. Ever since his AMAZING july-esque games against Nada in Ro8, I have been cheering him on. His improvement against terran is anything but small, and his zvp is looking INCREDIBLY solid. I doubted his macro a little bit, but he proceeded to double bitch slap me and my doubts with his smashing performance against anypro. I would just love to see his zvz now. I felt last season he thought zvz was like zvz in sc1, which is a grave mistake. pvp is the new zvz. We'll just have to wait til next season, though as a zerg it still hurts to see two zergs knocking each other out in the tournament.
My logical part says mc will take it in a good series. I think mc is the better prepared player but you cant really prepare for july in my opinion he can do it all.but i feel the strong player will come out on top enjoy watching all :D You guys getting excited :O?!!
as much as i want the god of war to win, im afraid that just like the games, the Kratos protoss will roflstomp his way to another gsl title. still heres hoping for an epic upset 4-3 for to july!!!
Has anyone else realized that the only person to beat MC in a GSL season since season 2 was Jinro in Season 4? MC has not lost a match to another yet. (This is not counting sets this is only counting matches)
On March 19 2011 14:03 Jacob666 wrote: Has anyone else realized that the only person to beat MC in a GSL season since season 2 was Jinro in Season 4? MC has not lost a match to another yet. (This is not counting sets this is only counting matches)
Well, considering he's in the finals for GSL 5, obviously no one has beaten him a series since GSL 4 loss to Jinro or he wouldn't be where he is today....
It's cold, it's raining, I felt nothing. Then I saw this post, and I got a chill from my neck to my toes. This is going to be an AMAZING weekend, MC HWAITING!
And MC=march champion and it's not July yet - Lovedrop, that's just brilliant
OK its late (for me) I'm about to go to bed but it says 15:00 KST that's +9 GMT ... if I'm at -6 GMT does that mean at 18:00 (6:00) is when I should have 3 alarms sets for so I don't miss this?
On March 19 2011 14:37 Dakkon B wrote: OK its late (for me) I'm about to go to bed but it says 15:00 KST that's +9 GMT ... if I'm at -6 GMT does that mean at 18:00 (6:00) is when I should have 3 alarms sets for so I don't miss this?
Don't know what you talking about, starts in 10min..2am EST
On March 19 2011 14:03 Jacob666 wrote: Has anyone else realized that the only person to beat MC in a GSL season since season 2 was Jinro in Season 4? MC has not lost a match to another yet. (This is not counting sets this is only counting matches)
MC has supreme preparation. Jinro had to pull out mech which was thought dead in TvP at the time to confuse MC so thoroughly that he actually thought going carriers was a good idea. July needs something surprising enough to confuse MC just as much if he wants to win.
Given that Koreans are usually polite to a fault, I'm kinda surprised MC is trash talking as hard as he is. Was he always like that or might GOMtv be instructing the players to sort of stir some shit up to start some drama and boost ratings?
Wow, game 3 was sick. WP by July. that was almost exactly like his ZvT style where he drills over and over in the same spot... he just used overlord drops to get around the sentries/cannons. very smart
so July's new style is using overlords for elevator drops? That's pretty interesting, and was disgusting as f when he did it. I hope MC loses for the arrogant crap he pulled in game 2. Go July!
oh sjeesj MC where is the sportsmanship? It's only quick timing attacks.... yawn for more forcefields. But then again if you're ahead get further ahead? -.-
I don't know if FF should be nerfed but ffs, the ability to block all reinforcements with one FF and zerg having NO ability to do anything about it is just retarded.
On March 19 2011 16:56 Whatevers wrote: oh sjeesj MC where is the sportsmanship? It's only quick timing attacks.... yawn for more forcefields. But then again if you're ahead get further ahead? -.-
mc was going for heavy macro in set 3, july killed him with the drop, so why bpther doing that again? and then again, mc was way ahead in macro the last set. didn't understand the 3rd of july either. how would he defend those chokes ever?
On March 19 2011 16:56 Whatevers wrote: oh sjeesj MC where is the sportsmanship? It's only quick timing attacks.... yawn for more forcefields. But then again if you're ahead get further ahead? -.-
No man
when MC is ahead he KILLS
but in all honestly they were quite even on the last one, it was just the FF and that DT that cinched it
It kind of emphasized what we already knew: Zerg can't win unless Toss makes a mistake. MC doesn't make many, and forcefields are pretty ridiculous.
There's just so many situations where FF turns things into an auto-game loss (mostly where ramps are concerned). I get the feeling that if something doesn't change relating to it that Zerg are going to get ROFLstomped by most Protoss in a season or two, unless MC is just unnaturally good with his forcefields and nobody can ever equal him.
after watching the finals match I am now convinced that ZvP is 100% broken. Yes MC is a beast but so is July and MC made it look too easy. It might as well been myself (plat zerg) playing MC. It is going to take a lot more than an infestor buff to fix this. I really hope blizzard looks into this matchup more closely because it is without a doubt broken. FF's on ramps and 4 gates....If you do manage to stay alive then as a zerg you must not over make or under make your corruptors to combat the imminent colossi....Protoss has the upper hand as every point in the match. The zerg literally has to struggle each time to win while the toss makes it look so easy.... common blizzard help the zerg out
On March 19 2011 17:12 iamthedave wrote: It kind of emphasized what we already knew: Zerg can't win unless Toss makes a mistake. MC doesn't make many, and forcefields are pretty ridiculous.
i would disagree with you. in a pro game like this one mistake can lose you the game and this goes either way regardless of whether you're T, P or Z
On March 19 2011 17:13 Disarm22 wrote: after watching the finals match I am now convinced that ZvP is 100% broken. Yes MC is a beast but so is July and MC made it look too easy. It might as well been myself (plat zerg) playing MC. It is going to take a lot more than an infestor buff to fix this. I really hope blizzard looks into this matchup more closely because it is without a doubt broken. FF's on ramps and 4 gates....If you do manage to stay alive then as a zerg you must not over make or under make your corruptors to combat the imminent colossi....Protoss has the upper hand as every point in the match. The zerg literally has to struggle each time to win while the toss makes it look so easy.... common blizzard help the zerg out
If july had spread his creep more and not taken his 3rd at such a bad location he would have done alot better because he would have been able to engage MC in a larger area with creep.
Just a question about the GSTL: Since oGs and TL are essentially the same team, will Jinro and Huk possibly be in the GSTL? Jinro went up with the rest of the team to congratulate MC, and they do practice together/live together. I want to see HuK and Jinro in the GSTL (along with MC and NaDa of course).
If july had spread his creep more and not taken his 3rd at such a bad location he would have done alot better because he would have been able to engage MC in a larger area with creep.
yeah only to have his army split up by a dozen FF's
On March 19 2011 17:12 iamthedave wrote: It kind of emphasized what we already knew: Zerg can't win unless Toss makes a mistake. MC doesn't make many, and forcefields are pretty ridiculous.
i would disagree with you. in a pro game like this one mistake can lose you the game and this goes either way regardless of whether you're T, P or Z
The difference is that if MC makes a FF mistake he loses his army and can rebuild it.
If he DOESN'T make a FF mistake he wins the game instantly and July Zerg can do nothing. Which is, in fact, what happened in 4 out of 5 games, and in the 5th MC lost because he tried to do something that didn't involve abusive use of Force Fields.
I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
On March 19 2011 17:12 iamthedave wrote: It kind of emphasized what we already knew: Zerg can't win unless Toss makes a mistake. MC doesn't make many, and forcefields are pretty ridiculous.
i would disagree with you. in a pro game like this one mistake can lose you the game and this goes either way regardless of whether you're T, P or Z
The difference is that if MC makes a FF mistake he loses his army and can rebuild it.
If he DOESN'T make a FF mistake he wins the game instantly and July Zerg can do nothing. Which is, in fact, what happened in 4 out of 5 games, and in the 5th MC lost because he tried to do something that didn't involve abusive use of Force Fields.
lose his army and rebuild it while july takes the entire map and then some, correct?
but in all fairness, MC played perfectly and julyzerg slipped, even a little opening and mc can pry into it and tear apart the player. i don't think july's loss was a matter of balance between the race, it was more a matter of who was the better player and who came in with the stronger style
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
you also need to take into consideration that for 2 games MC didn't have any detection and July had burrow, yet he only used it like once at the beginning of one of the games. could've done way better with that by dodging the FFs (or even burrowing the damaged roaches, but I can't recall seeing any micro by july there). That's just the one thing that makes the big differences, Protoss really have to be on the edge of micro, when all zerg and terran (for the most part) are doing is a-move
Everyone fails to mention roach burrow movement with a the unit composition mc had being wayyy to sentry heavy he would have lost his army so fast had july zerg got burrow movement and just popped up right on mc's army especially considering i dont think mc made a robo in any of the games.
On March 19 2011 17:18 jorge_the_awesome wrote: Just a question about the GSTL: Since oGs and TL are essentially the same team, will Jinro and Huk possibly be in the GSTL? Jinro went up with the rest of the team to congratulate MC, and they do practice together/live together. I want to see HuK and Jinro in the GSTL (along with MC and NaDa of course).
I believe Gom considered ogs as OGS-TeamLiquid in the last GSTL, though I could be mistaken, however they also had TeamLiquid in the points system as a seperate entity as well.
Purely enjoyed the Dancing Zealots and Nexus in July's main. Those kind of mental games must have hit really hard if July had any doubts.
On March 19 2011 17:31 cheesemaster wrote: Everyone fails to mention roach burrow movement with a the unit composition mc had being wayyy to sentry heavy he would have lost his army so fast had july zerg got burrow movement and just popped up right on mc's army especially considering i dont think mc made a robo in any of the games.
He had a robo in the 3rd set, but lost to the hydra drop before it saw any use I do believe.
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
I have to agree there, watching the battles. Though July did make a lot of units to prepare for MC he still got crushed. We will have to see if people would be able to copy MCs FF ability. MC already made the 6 warp gate push explode in popularity probably mass sentry pushes now. In the final game though, July made some bad choices in engagements but the first 2 matches the FF just gave him no chance.
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
I have to agree there, watching the battles. Though July did make a lot of units to prepare for MC he still got crushed. We will have to see if people would be able to copy MCs FF ability. MC already made the 6 warp gate push explode in popularity probably mass sentry pushes now. In the final game though, July made some bad choices in engagements but the first 2 matches the FF just gave him no chance.
just not true, read cheesemaster's and my post just 3-4 minutes ago, there was no micro by july at all (and once he even had burrow movement)
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
I have to agree there, watching the battles. Though July did make a lot of units to prepare for MC he still got crushed. We will have to see if people would be able to copy MCs FF ability. MC already made the 6 warp gate push explode in popularity probably mass sentry pushes now. In the final game though, July made some bad choices in engagements but the first 2 matches the FF just gave him no chance.
just not true, read cheesemaster's and my post just 3-4 minutes ago, there was no micro by july at all (and once he even had burrow movement)
By the time he had burrow movement it was too late. In order to be properly prepared like you say, he would have needed 2 roach warrens with burrow and burrow movement training simultaneously in order to have a fair chance at surviving. Burrow alone was completely useless in the situations we witnessed.
On March 19 2011 17:30 qwert_ wrote: you also need to take into consideration that for 2 games MC didn't have any detection and July had burrow, yet he only used it like once at the beginning of one of the games. could've done way better with that by dodging the FFs (or even burrowing the damaged roaches, but I can't recall seeing any micro by july there). That's just the one thing that makes the big differences, Protoss really have to be on the edge of micro, when all zerg and terran (for the most part) are doing is a-move
It's kindof impossible to micro when your surrounded by half a dozen FFs
FFs are clearly overpowered vs zerg, why eles would MC use a ton of them every single game.. pretty boring finals, I was hopping to see atleast one good macro/late game.
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
I have to agree there, watching the battles. Though July did make a lot of units to prepare for MC he still got crushed. We will have to see if people would be able to copy MCs FF ability. MC already made the 6 warp gate push explode in popularity probably mass sentry pushes now. In the final game though, July made some bad choices in engagements but the first 2 matches the FF just gave him no chance.
just not true, read cheesemaster's and my post just 3-4 minutes ago, there was no micro by july at all (and once he even had burrow movement)
By the time he had burrow movement it was too late. In order to be properly prepared like you say, he would have needed 2 roach warrens with burrow and burrow movement training simultaneously in order to have a fair chance at surviving. Burrow alone was completely useless in the situations we witnessed.
Burrow is upgraded at any hatch once you have a lair, so this one doesn't make much sense. As well as roach speed doesn't effect how fast they move while burrow i don't think? so just one.
July is just way too used to being the aggresor in this season and isnt used to defending pushes like that. A more defensive zerg who actually used burrow movement would have faired wayy better against mc's pushes someone like nestea. Zergs can hold off 4 gates and 6 gate pushes at any level of play with the right unit composition mc's play was near perfect but with burrow movement it would have shut him down, burrow movement is the hardcounter to mass sentries there are lots of units in this game that have only 1 hard counter.
Also hydras with range and him playing defensively he would have done much better on the shakuras game, Hydras off creep (facepalm), also if this was july's new style it clearly wasnt working for him i think if he had tried to be more aggresive earlier on he may have done better if not then playing defensively with burrow movement against mc's only gateway armies would have won him some games there is no doubt in my mind.
Those games would have been macro games or turned into macro games had july been better at holding off pushes some of those games he lost himself.
On March 19 2011 17:22 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think it is right now just MC ability to use FF better then anyone else. If FF are nerfed in anyway you have to look at the PvT match up protoss would get destroyed by 3 racks play without FFs. Also the fact that no1 goes as heavy sentry as MC really.
true no one may use as many sentries as MC atm but now he just showed us how OP they are vs zerg. It will now become very popular and my guess is standard at the pro level. Zerg CANNOT stay on one base vs a toss unless it's roach cheese. The FF exploits the fact that zerg must expand. Simply FF the ramp constantly and then split the army with the rest of your FF's. Anyone who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that FF are ridiculous vs zerg in the early game.
I have to agree there, watching the battles. Though July did make a lot of units to prepare for MC he still got crushed. We will have to see if people would be able to copy MCs FF ability. MC already made the 6 warp gate push explode in popularity probably mass sentry pushes now. In the final game though, July made some bad choices in engagements but the first 2 matches the FF just gave him no chance.
just not true, read cheesemaster's and my post just 3-4 minutes ago, there was no micro by july at all (and once he even had burrow movement)
By the time he had burrow movement it was too late. In order to be properly prepared like you say, he would have needed 2 roach warrens with burrow and burrow movement training simultaneously in order to have a fair chance at surviving. Burrow alone was completely useless in the situations we witnessed.
Burrow is upgraded at any hatch once you have a lair, so this one doesn't make much sense. As well as roach speed doesn't effect how fast they move while burrow i don't think? so just one.
Yes you are 100% right, its late and im tired. my misteak
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
Edit: im only in plat league but ive had zergs have burrow movement off of 2 base by the time i came with my 4 gate push and won against me. I just think july could have had it out alot earlier.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Well when you see someone as good as July get crushed like that by a tactic, first response to said tactic is usually IMBA! That game though he had already lost a significant amount of roaches.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
by the time he actually did that his army had already dwindled and was quite small , had he had it at the begining of the engagement things would have gone differently. Also even artosis said he unborrowed pretty late there, it wasnt actually on top of everything most of the units had passed by and were sitting right on his hatch by the time he unburrowed.
I thought collosus void ray deathball was what all the zergs were complaining about ( i actually kind of agree with that) but complaining about gateway units >< (sentries mainly the only thing that makes gateway units even stand a chance)
also i dont recall july getting hardly any spine crawlers against most of those 6 gate pushes, spine crawlers are quite good against a 4 or 6 gate pure gateway armies. like ive said before hes used to being the aggreser and was probably planning on being aggresive shortly, so he wasnt thinking defensively at all wich is what you need to be doing against a style like MC's
On March 19 2011 16:56 Whatevers wrote: oh sjeesj MC where is the sportsmanship? It's only quick timing attacks.... yawn for more forcefields. But then again if you're ahead get further ahead? -.-
No man
when MC is ahead he KILLS
but in all honestly they were quite even on the last one, it was just the FF and that DT that cinched it
MC applies that to (game) wins =] not inside one game
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
My guess is you probably lose a lot to protoss and find this as a great opportunity to blame your inability to win on race imbalance. Or maybe, because you see that blizzard is nerfing P in the PTR and protosses are doing well in GSL for once (and I mean protosses, not just MC), you are jumping on the bandwagon of "protoss OP nerf please". You may also think July is at the same skill level as MC just because he got to the finals or because of some silly BW fanboyism.
July got OUTPLAYED, all there is to it. July decided to go for standard zerg play, MC saw a window of opportunity to punish that play. He had a perfect unit composition and perfect micro. July was not prepared for the attacks. -game over-
If you truly think that toss is OP in PvZ, then do explain why Huk and banban lost to losirA, why anypro lost to July, why genius lost to FD, why Ace lost to Coca.
If what MC did was so easy and imbalanced, anypro (lol) should be able to pull it off. You think the other toss players are too stupid to copy his "un-counterable" build? You think they don't want 50k in prize winnings?
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
i know that you're blinded by ur own arrogance, and having a vision that u are able to achieve high masters league in a month is just your own opinion. You're nothing if you don't execute what you say. In addition, how do u know the analysis you give is not wrong? its just what you believe, when you think everything you say and analyse is correct.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
i know that you're blinded by ur own arrogance, and having a vision that u are able to achieve high masters league in a month is just your own opinion. You're nothing if you don't execute what you say. In addition, how do u know the analysis you give is not wrong? its just what you believe, when you think everything you say and analyse is correct.
would it be anyone elses opinion but my own? i think thats pretty obvious, and everything your saying is just your own opinion. What your saying makes no sense, why do i have to be confident in my own abilities to judge a player like july? Obviously july made some mistakes i dont think anyone is going to argue with me there except for maybe you. If you dont think july made any mistakes and it was simply Protoss being overpowered or w/e you think is the reason then i would have to take your analysis into question regardless of your league because i honestly dont give a crap about what league your in. Its like saying i cant make judgements on a sports player playing a bad game because im not as good of a hockey soccer or w/e player as him , that is just totally false. I really dont even understand how my abilities have anything to do with how july played or how I and others perceived that he played, does that somehow make sense in your mind?
EditLAlso i never said i would reach high masters in a month i said high diamond or masters, i dont beleive i could reach high masters ever really the nerve damage in my wrist is fairly severe and after too much play my wrist starts to ache in excrutiating pain.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
If you said hey cheese what you said wouldnt work becaues "blah blah blah" i would respect your opinion alot more than just putting my analysis into question without coming up with anything to back that up besides the fact that i am in platinum.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours?
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours?
okay, kellymilkies and duo, two low level players who watch alot of replays and stream vs Tasteless and Artosis, who are two high level players. Which group do u think has more knowledge and better casting?. The reason everyone loves Tasteless and Artosis is because what they say is actually correct, despite all the jokes they make.
On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote: cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours?
okay, kellymilkies and duo, two low level players who watch alot of replays and stream vs Tasteless and Artosis, who are two high level players. Which group do u think has more knowledge and better casting?. The reason everyone loves Tasteless and Artosis is because what they say is actually correct, despite all the jokes they make.
Well obviously tasteless and artosis , but theyve also had wayy more experienced as casters. I still find tasteless and artosis being suprised by obvious things (they were wondering why a protoss player was getting armor before attack against terran , then by the time the up and down matches came around they were saying armor was the cats pajama's to get against terran) I think sometimes they just talk to much or get tired and thats why their analysis gets a bit off sometimes. Clearly they are some of the best but im not saying that im not trying to go into every intricacy about how july could have done better im just suggesting things that he could have done that at least would have prolonged the game( that i think are pretty obvious and a few ppl agreed with me in this thread) and although you are questioning my integrity on the matter you have yet to even aknowledge what i actually said on july zergs play.
The only real option July had, was using mutas. But yeah, MC also uses blink stalkers so that wont be that effective either. Burrow roaches are fine, but when he has an observer out, he has free hits till those roaches get out of the force fields. Then he just applies new ones and he has to burrow again so he has free hits and after a while, he will have effectively halfed that army without losing stuff himself.
On March 19 2011 19:37 Falcon_NL wrote: The only real option July had, was using mutas. But yeah, MC also uses blink stalkers so that wont be that effective either. Burrow roaches are fine, but when he has an observer out, he has free hits till those roaches get out of the force fields. Then he just applies new ones and he has to burrow again so he has free hits and after a while, he will have effectively halfed that army without losing stuff himself.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Im pretty sure Nestea would've given MC a much better fight. July isnt that great, he has relied on people being unprepared for his playstyle. You can whine all you want about FF protoss etc but the face is that MC is alot better then July.
Personally I think the nexus fake in the first game was quite genius. I often notice I get a mineral buffer during the construction of the additional 3 gates, and if you throw down a nexus at that point, and cancel it later when the production catches up with the economy, you can get a really nice timing. Note also that he hid half of his army in his base when zerglings poked around. Good games imo, even though none of them went into the epic stage, I still had major goose bumps.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
My guess is you probably lose a lot to protoss and find this as a great opportunity to blame your inability to win on race imbalance. Or maybe, because you see that blizzard is nerfing P in the PTR and protosses are doing well in GSL for once (and I mean protosses, not just MC), you are jumping on the bandwagon of "protoss OP nerf please". You may also think July is at the same skill level as MC just because he got to the finals or because of some silly BW fanboyism.
July got OUTPLAYED, all there is to it. July decided to go for standard zerg play, MC saw a window of opportunity to punish that play. He had a perfect unit composition and perfect micro. July was not prepared for the attacks. -game over-
If you truly think that toss is OP in PvZ, then do explain why Huk and banban lost to losirA, why anypro lost to July, why genius lost to FD, why Ace lost to Coca.
If what MC did was so easy and imbalanced, anypro (lol) should be able to pull it off. You think the other toss players are too stupid to copy his "un-counterable" build? You think they don't want 50k in prize winnings?
They all lost to zergs because they did not 4 gate / mass sentry each game What is the correct counter to what MC did? everyone is in agreement that he needed more spines, burrow, and burrow movement. How exactly does one achieve all these thinfs by the 6-7 min mark and have ample roach and lings to defend?
Man I feel asleep at like 4 then I woke up at 6 and watch the rest of the games.
Cool series MC definitely showing his superiority and not letting July even show his game. GG!
Oh and also The 4 Gate rush could have been stopped with more lings and roaches, it was tricky of MC but July should of gotten a hint from seeing so many units including stalkers. Then the 6 Gate should have been stopped with Roach Burrow which you should get asap every game (protoss used to 6 gate all the time and thats the counter). He needed better lair timing for the third loss (you don't have to tech right away when you get lair but having it gives you the option...and he had the money to get it) Then the last game he did terrible engagements with hydras off creep (lol). No clear imbalance here (there might be), July just got outclassed; I play zerg and he didn't respond correctly but it's so hard to scout a good protoss I don't blame him entirely.
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
You're going on as if these upgrades finished that zerg would hard counter and easily win, that's not the case at all. Besides for the 2nd time i'm telling you MC attacked before burrow was done. For him to hold off MCs pushes he'd have to have burow done as well as roach speed and tunnling claws (or w/e) AND have a TON of roaches. These upgrades alone don't counter fuckin shit. It's not like going robo and chrono boosting 2 immortals or going colossus.
On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost.
i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost.
i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
so you're suggesting that protoss is the least micro intensive race? just warping in units, blink and FF placement alone exceeds any micro most zerg or terran player ever have to do. that's also why it took the protoss players so much longer to really be able to beat terran and zerg (remember 2-3 months ago when protoss were struggling the most).
one other thing: you say july wasn't able to get enough army to fight MC. sure he wasn't b/c he was droneing up like a madman instead of building an army. that's the price you pay for being too greedy with your economy
On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote: He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it.
My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
Ok again dude, getting a baneling nest + all roach upgrades + 5-6 banes is so much of an investment july's standing army will be so much weaker compared to mc's when he pushed. Also how are you going to burrow when gets to your base "BEFORE BURROW IS DONE" Also for your robo contain post, just because you have burrow you cant just contain a toss that has 6 gateways, and if you really wanted to go very very fast burrow + tunnel you will need to skip roach speed and get tunneling claws first which is so bad.
I think you all aren't looking at July's build orders closely enough. He would always go pool and speed first even on the second map crevasse. He kept playing standard and never compensated for MC's aggressive style as well as he could have had a lot stronger econ at the very start. If he had gone hatch first, or maybe not even get speed so fast he could have more drones better econ and then more stuff for when MC would push. To me it is clearly MC came prepared with a game plan to never let July dictate the game flow while July on the other hand never did anything to throw MC off his game plan. Never threw in a 6 pool, early aggression, or even change his plan out of the standard pool and speed opening. He during many of the attacks he had tech buildings such as the hydra den but wasn't able to make use of it because he got it to early and didn't quite have the econ to support it. July didn't make the best decisions when going against MC, July followed a pattern MC saw the weakness in that style nad exploited it. Then July does the same build pretty much every game MC changed it up but exploits Julys style over and over again.
On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost.
i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
so you're suggesting that protoss is the least micro intensive race? just warping in units, blink and FF placement alone exceeds any micro most zerg or terran player ever have to do. that's also why it took the protoss players so much longer to really be able to beat terran and zerg (remember 2-3 months ago when protoss were struggling the most).
one other thing: you say july wasn't able to get enough army to fight MC. sure he wasn't b/c he was droneing up like a madman instead of building an army. that's the price you pay for being too greedy with your economy
blink micro is hilariously easier than people make it out to be. yeah protoss is the least micro intensive race, probably not when it comes to TvP but TvT and TvZ terran is probably the most micro intensive.
well basically if you build an army of 2 base to defend a 2 base protoss push you're going to lose
On March 20 2011 18:08 ShampooSuicide wrote: I think you all aren't looking at July's build orders closely enough. He would always go pool and speed first even on the second map crevasse. He kept playing standard and never compensated for MC's aggressive style as well as he could have had a lot stronger econ at the very start. If he had gone hatch first, or maybe not even get speed so fast he could have more drones better econ and then more stuff for when MC would push. To me it is clearly MC came prepared with a game plan to never let July dictate the game flow while July on the other hand never did anything to throw MC off his game plan. Never threw in a 6 pool, early aggression, or even change his plan out of the standard pool and speed opening. He during many of the attacks he had tech buildings such as the hydra den but wasn't able to make use of it because he got it to early and didn't quite have the econ to support it. July didn't make the best decisions when going against MC, July followed a pattern MC saw the weakness in that style nad exploited it. Then July does the same build pretty much every game MC changed it up but exploits Julys style over and over again.
came with a game plan? he did exactly what he does vs everyone. yeah july probably should have gone 15 hatch a few games but MCs aggressive play is the exact type of play that would stop it, you've seen his canon rushes i presume. and i don't think going speed alone lost july all of the gmaes. i don't see any zerg builds apart from 6pool that will "throw" mc off, i'm psure he went early sentries every single game. what can you do against sentries?
On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote: I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost.
i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
Wow that's just low man. MC is probably the best player in the world right now. He had awesome builds planned out, with genius timings that often relied upon not being scouted (hiding half of the army when he made the false expo, hiding a DT opening behind a 3 gate) Sentries are what makes the games interesting with protoss, as every matchup would be pretty silly without them. Yeah it's easy to 4 gate.. no buildorder is really tricky to do tbh if you have a trace of fundamentals in your play. Well executed builds, with huge amounts of sneakyness, mind games and crystal clear execution is what makes a good player. You can say his timings were "ridiculously stupid", but then how come protoss don't win every single PvZ? Because they can't play like MC, that's why. Also when other players come up with new strategies and tricks, they're rightfully considered geniuses. For instance the Foxer build. TvT requires more micro than PvZ? Lol, TvT is a position game, not a micro wars. TvZ is also either a lot of turtling with turret spam, or timing pushes with marine / tank. PvP is probably by far the most microintensive MU, and forcefields in PvZ and PvT requires ridiculous speed and precision. If you watch MC, his forcefields all come up at basically the same time, at exactly the right spots. If it's so ridiculously easy to do what MC did, why don't ya go to Korea and beat everyone with his build?
Yeah, clearly genius. Best player world. If he was zerg or terran he would just destroy GSL. Jk he wouldn't even get into ro18. Well actually, i can't really say that, because so far all his builds have been perfect. BUT i've yet to see a macro game from him (apart from last game with july - don't read into this too much, i haven't seen every MC game). He failed tremendously in other macro games i've seen in the previous GSL (i think). Truth is it's easy to abuse protoss builds like 4 gate and 6 gate to win easy games. Sure his timings were spot and he was very precice. But that alone shouldn't be enough to let you win 2 GSL tournaments alone. Wait what 'micro' does P have to use vs Z? I'm not sure where you're going with that cause i'm psure the zerg has to pull of some amazing micro to even do an army trade off (with toss having some of their units still remaining). I also said PvT not PvZ. PvP is the most micro intensive because it's just 4gate vs 4gate and it's always a small amount of units early on vs a small amount of units. Rofl please. Yeah i agree MC is really REALLY fast with his forcefields, i was shocked when they all came down at the same time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're easy to do and it pmuch wins you the battle if you do them right. Ehehe and of course the downy comment at the end of your post. I dunno really, i think it just may be my hatred for protoss just getting the better of me, oh well. Maybe i'm just bad and don't see all the possibilities july had to beat MCs builds.
Not to take anything away from MC, he's a great player, i'm not saying he isn't. But build orders alone and only gateway units are winning the GSL for him. He doesn't even have to try.
The problem I saw pretty clearly in this finals was zerg's complete lack of options. Even just the typical 4-gate leaves protoss with some choices, which in turn will dictate the zerg's response.
Blink Stalkers - they need to mass speedlings mostly, forget the roaches
Zealot and Sentries - they need to mass roaches. A lot of roaches. Tech comes slowly.
DT rush - you need to get a Lair or evo-chamber/spore-crawlers ASAP.
Protoss makes a build decision, and zerg has to counter or dies otherwise. There is no inverse of this. The only thing a zerg can really force on a protoss early-on is to force them to build a wall, which most protoss blindly do against zerg's anyways, and doesn't really effect much.
I know zerg is the "reactionary" race as a general rule, but watching the finals really struck it home to me that at high-levels, "reactionary" really means being easily manipulated.
Forcefields, blink. These are just such fun toys to have to choose from. Against protoss, all a zerg has to give his T1 units a tech edge is speed and burrow... not as exciting. Not as impacting as Blink or Charge, that's for sure.
On March 20 2011 22:59 Trig wrote: Yeah, clearly genius. Best player world. If he was zerg or terran he would just destroy GSL. Jk he wouldn't even get into ro18. Well actually, i can't really say that, because so far all his builds have been perfect. BUT i've yet to see a macro game from him (apart from last game with july - don't read into this too much, i haven't seen every MC game). He failed tremendously in other macro games i've seen in the previous GSL (i think). Truth is it's easy to abuse protoss builds like 4 gate and 6 gate to win easy games. Sure his timings were spot and he was very precice. But that alone shouldn't be enough to let you win 2 GSL tournaments alone. Wait what 'micro' does P have to use vs Z? I'm not sure where you're going with that cause i'm psure the zerg has to pull of some amazing micro to even do an army trade off (with toss having some of their units still remaining). I also said PvT not PvZ. PvP is the most micro intensive because it's just 4gate vs 4gate and it's always a small amount of units early on vs a small amount of units. Rofl please. Yeah i agree MC is really REALLY fast with his forcefields, i was shocked when they all came down at the same time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're easy to do and it pmuch wins you the battle if you do them right. Ehehe and of course the downy comment at the end of your post. I dunno really, i think it just may be my hatred for protoss just getting the better of me, oh well. Maybe i'm just bad and don't see all the possibilities july had to beat MCs builds.
Not to take anything away from MC, he's a great player, i'm not saying he isn't. But build orders alone and only gateway units are winning the GSL for him. He doesn't even have to try.
What kind of macro game are you talking about. The 2 games with byun wernt macro games? The final game with july could be considered a macro game. He got those 3 expos up. So not saying not seeing ANY macro games is very false. Failing in previous gsl's (im guessing you were talking where he lost to jinro) and winning this one makes you think...yes...HE GOT BETTER. MC also did great macro games against Rain and MKP in gsl season 3.
July's ZvP is nowhere near as good as his ZvT. If he only had some sick, aggressive builds for ZvP those finals would've been totally different. MC builds kill, period. July's builds kill as well, but he has to refine them against toss, the game he won he made up for the immobility of hydra's beautifully (he just got lucky that MC let him live long enough to get set up).
Seriously, if we could've seen an aggressive July 2base build vs an aggressive MC 2base build, it would've been the real clash of the titans that Tastosis had us all excited for.
In the interviews they showed before the games i was so stoked to see this new style July was gonna show, hoping for something like his ZvT. Oh well, he's lost a lot of weight since his BW days :D
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL2011Mar/mcvsjulyfinalver2.jpg)
MC vs. 
July
2011 2nd Generation Intel® Core™ Global StarCraft II League March![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/metalopolis.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/crevasse.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/terminus.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/crossfire.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/shakuras.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/scrap.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Lovedrop/gsl5/maps/xelnaga.png)
. GO Julyyyy
MC vs. 
July
![[image loading]](http://img19.imageshack.us/i/asdffkj8.png/)
