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Just out of interest. If a similar situation developed during a TSL match. Considering people are playing from home and siblings can kick out wires and so forth, it seems much more likely.
What would be the decision? 100% Rematch?
On January 23 2010 23:42 BG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:38 Predator_au wrote:
I think it was 50/50...
Although JD had the 2 defilers, I dont think he had enough to push up and attempt an attack on Flash's new expo.
At the same time, Flash would not have been able to wipe out the defiler/ultra/ling/sunk at 7 due to the irads he had just used.
Too close to give the win to JD.
I had initally thought it was correct going to JD, but after watching that VOD, its 50/50 in my opinion. lol. In the news today: Ret and Nazgul - 99% JD win. Idra - Massive advantage. Predator_au - "I think it was 50/50" + Show Spoiler +No hard feelings Pred 
Lol ouch.
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United States43968 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote:
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base
but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now
Look at the last 3 seconds of the vod. That line of mnm turn around and go back. 7 wasn't dying because Flash decided not to attack it. He decided not to attack it because he could see a defiler consuming lings right under his sci vessels. That defiler was very much not irradiated. Flash didn't have energy for it.
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On January 23 2010 23:47 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:42 BG1 wrote:On January 23 2010 23:38 Predator_au wrote:
I think it was 50/50...
Although JD had the 2 defilers, I dont think he had enough to push up and attempt an attack on Flash's new expo.
At the same time, Flash would not have been able to wipe out the defiler/ultra/ling/sunk at 7 due to the irads he had just used.
Too close to give the win to JD.
I had initally thought it was correct going to JD, but after watching that VOD, its 50/50 in my opinion. lol. In the news today: Ret and Nazgul - 99% JD win. Idra - Massive advantage. Predator_au - "I think it was 50/50" + Show Spoiler +No hard feelings Pred "Chill: I dont even think JD had the advantage" Chill and Predator chilling on the cool side 
Chill probably just saw the MBC playback without the extra 30 secs of footage showing JD's 7 oclock and Flash retreating, otherwise there's no reason he and guys like Ret, Naz and Idra would have such a different opinion. They all know how this game works.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:33 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine. ... Rainbow vs July Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too. About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either. At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before. Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with. The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it. Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times. Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing. I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either. Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/
In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact.
You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:33 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine. ... Rainbow vs July Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too. About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either. At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before. Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with. The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it. Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times. Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing. I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either. Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/ Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one. No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
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Canada5565 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote:
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure.
Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them.
So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else.
Noone will ever know.
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it was the right decision. Flash was mined out in 2-3 mins and jaedong had 4 gas ultra defiler vs no vessel energy.
Hardly the ideal outcome but with one player so firmly ahead it would have been stupidly unfair to regame.
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seeing you guys talking i never thought it occured that often...
It's a shame.... even if flash had lost tha game he could totally win the series 3-2.... that shit finished him out...
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United States43968 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:52 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:48 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:33 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine. ... Rainbow vs July Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too. About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either. At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before. Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with. The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it. Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times. Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing. I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either. Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/ Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one. No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not.
"We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter."
Still not convinced that's any better.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:47 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote:
This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already... When is a game 75% over? Honestly, when people talk about how "over" a game is its almost exclusively 50/50 or pretty much over. Perhaps 60/40 at a stretch, but really... Can you really quantify how over a game of starcraft is accurately?
Another great question. I say that, given the situation at the time of the power outage, it's impossible to predict with enough accuracy the odds that Jaedong would win to justify awarding him the game. To argue, using probabilities, that JD should have been awarded the win, I think you'd have to show both that
1) estimate of his probability of winning the game was sufficiently high to justify awarding him the win AND that
2) that estimate has a low enough error (in Flash's direction, that is in terms of Flash's odds of winning (if that makes sense)) to make it a reasonable basis for awarding the win
Regardless of the standard we pick for 1 (95%? 99%?) I don't think that 2 will be satisfied. I mean, even if you say that JD had a 90% chance of winning and you're only willing to admit error of +-10% or something, you will run into problems because a 1/5 chance for Flash is probably too high to award JD a win.
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On January 23 2010 23:52 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote:
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro. Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure. Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else. Noone will ever know.
There was nothing coming afer 18:49, he still had units producing but he was staying at the nat and retreating the leftovers from 7:00.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:50 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:33 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine. ... Rainbow vs July Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too. About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either. At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before. Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with. The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it. Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times. Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing. I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either. Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/ In this case, inconsistency was built into the system (deciding whether to award a regame or appoint a winner is a referee decision, according to KeSPA.) I don't think your argument holds up, given that fact. You say that the Leta deal is actually better than this because Leta knew he would get DQed after writing ppp. However, I feel that this situation is not too much different. Since uncertainty, and the need to make an on-the-spot judgment call, is written in the rulebook, players can assume that sometimes the referee will make a decision that they will not agree with. In fact, you might even say that players could expect that the refs might make a decision, a CORRECT decision, that screws them over to some degree. Remember, in the case of awarding a regame when a player was ahead at the crash, awarding a regame can be equally as hurtful as not awarding one. This just isn't the time or place to deviate from standard policy though. There are way too many unknowns. We can try to correctly assess just how far ahead Jaedong was off of what limited footage we have - but without the whole story how can you conclude that Flash had no chance? We don't know the size of his reinforcements etc or anything really. Sure, Jaedong had a tangible advantage but we cannot quantify it as far as I can see. Decisions in the past have been granted off complete knowledge of what was going on, and indeed, regames have been issued where players have been fucked over by the DC (i.e. rainbow). With limited information and no indication of precedent changing how can you argue that deviating from the norm is a good thing? It pissed off a lot of people, and ruined the series.
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On January 23 2010 23:40 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:38 Letmelose wrote:On January 23 2010 23:34 BG1 wrote:
Flash will probably admit himself tomorrow that he lost that game after reviewing the footage. Everyone knows it (the people with a functioning brain anyhow). They just want a rematch because the game wasn't technically finished, not because that would be fair, but because they've seen it being done before. Especially more so for people who root for Flash considering the huge advantage Flash would have had had there been a rematch. *sigh* It's obvious you yourself have no bias.
Who cares about bias? What gives you the idea that bias has anything to do with the fact that a rematch would never have saved the series in the first place? Rematch would have changed everything (Jaedong having exposed what may be his only winning card on a very tough map, the psychological hit of having lost an extreme advantage etc), and it's exactly for this reason why some people insisted on a rematch, not because they have faith in the "rematch system". Don't pretend that the rematch would have been the fair thing to do, because there wasn't any solution that would have been fair to both parties. You just wanted a rematch because that was the more advantageous decision for Flash. Of course Flash was screwed over. And yes, I would have been pissed if there had been a rematch. It wouldn't have been the fair thing to do, like you pretend it to be.
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On January 23 2010 23:41 JWD wrote:
This is a fascinating debate…the more I think about it the more I see there are deep-seated conceptions of justice/punishment at stake here. For example, is decreasing someone's chance of living (or getting some benefit) from 90% to 40% worse than decreasing it from 10% to 0%? This is a really interesting question and I imagine there is tons of intelligent philosophy surrounding it already...
Theoretically this matchup would be about 50/50 from the beginning if it was restarted (not exactly but whatever), game going for Jaedong is 100/0 win for him which would mean that chance-wise giving it to Jaedong would be twice as worse. If Jaedong had about 85% chance of wining the game when the outage happened game should be given to him in 35-15 ratio?
I don`t even know if this makes any sense at all.
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this is the worst fuckup i've ever seen, unbeliavable crap by MBC, a power outage, a FUCKING POWER OUTAGE? bring out the guillotine and the pricks responsible for the technical setup and let the heads start a-rollin' imo, atleast then i'd get some satisfaction from this crap they pulled, a power outage because of flash's fan??? what is this mid 70's Soviet union? uuurgghhhh.. 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:52 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:48 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:33 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:22 KwarK wrote:On January 23 2010 23:19 Plexa wrote:On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine. ... Rainbow vs July Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push disconnect game isnt over, regame occurs July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too. About time they started getting their act together then. If they fail to disqualify someone for typing "ppp" when their monitor dies I won't be complaining and bringing up precedent either. At least in that case the players knew what was going to happen. Part of having a good rule set is being able to interpret the result before the ref give his decision. There should be no surprises when that ref opens his/her mouth. That situation was dumb, but it was due to a shit ruleset. Everyone on KT expected regame because that's what has been done before. If they had called regame, hwaseung probably wouldn't have walked out (they would have been pissed though most likely) but they would understand the ruling because that's what's happened before. Now if you want to go and change the rules willy-nilly in the middle of the biggest final in history then what faith can player or coaches have in any KeSPA ruling? Hell, why have a ruleset to begin with. The old way of doing it was bad. I think I've seen that rainbow July vod. July does the hatch bug and crashes the game and then wins the re and rainbow never qualifies for shit again. Disappointing result. Anyway, that's the precedent you're defending. You're arguing a sudden change is surprising and everyone expected the same "always replay the game" result. That doesn't make that the right result, just the expected one. I'd argue that in a game as over as this one a replay is the wrong thing to do and it's about time Kespa started doing this. KT's and Hwaseung's expectations don't matter much. KT raging because they expected Kespa's usual incompetence to swing their way this time doesn't make it any better. Nor does the fact that Hwaseung would have stoicly accepted Kespa's incompetence if they got hit by it. Incompetence is bad. Less incompetence is a good thing, even if it comes at sudden and unexpected times. Hopefully this sets a precedent so next time intotherainbow doesn't get knocked out after July crashes the game after losing. I'm arguing for consistency and hence faith in the system, however flawed the system may be. Players and Coaches need to be able to rely on KeSPA do deliver consistent rulings. You take that away from KeSPA and then you have nothing. If the rulings are decided by an incompetent ruleset then that ruleset should change - if that means Leta gets hit in the process then that's an unfortunate casualty but for the greater good (since the rule has now been abolished). But atleast in that case Leta knew that there was a 99.99% chance of him getting DQd. You didn't see the OGN manager storm out of the stadium at that point either. Basically, you have a whole bunch of fans (and Flash) who had their expectations built up on precedent only to let them down in an extremely tense moment. That's why this whole incident is so bad, and why Flash's dad got so pissed etc. Incompetence is bad, but inconsistency is worse. Incompetence can be singled down to people not giving enough thought into the ruleset and having unintended consequences arise from that. Inconsistency is just so much worse than that =/ Say they're consistently bad and people complain. They then decide to be consistently good. There's a point between the final bad decision and the first good one where they're being inconsistent. There's no way of avoiding this though. The alternative is to be incompetent forever. I think Flash can take one for the team here. Especially if the hit he's taking is being hit by a fair decision when he was expecting to benefit from an unfair one. No the alternate is to fix the system when you have unintended consequences happening. This is CLEARLY not the first time this has occurred, and they have had ample time to adjust policy. But why in the MSL finals? Why in such a critical point in the series? Why in this specific moment do you decide to start ruling differently. You can argue that you have to start somewhere, but is starting at such an important moment the right time? I think not. "We're making a shit decision and fucking JD over and we know we are. But in fairness we have a history of making shit decisions so you can't really be surprised by this. Oddly enough, we actually know we're making the wrong decision in this case but we felt now wasn't the time to start being actually good at our jobs. We'll save the good decisions for when it doesn't matter." Still not convinced that's any better. They weren't even basing their decision off complete information ffs =/ this simply was not the time or place to start with this. And because they decided that they would, they pissed off a shit ton of people. You rule the other way and I bet you Hwaseung doesn't storm out and delay everything for 2 hours.
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Canada5565 Posts
On January 23 2010 23:56 BG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 23:52 Xxio wrote:On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote:
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro. Flash did have 3/3 upgrades, I remember that for sure. Also, if you look closely at the mini map at the last few seconds you can see a stream of m/m coming from Flash's main, so he was still producing units (for what purpose, who knows). They weren't scvs because he had already moved them. So when people say he was abandoning 7, he could have just been grouping up with those new units. Or he could have been planning to go somewhere else. Noone will ever know. There was nothing coming afer 18:49, he still had units producing but he was staying at the nat and retreating the leftovers from 7:00.
At 18:49 you can clearly see many yellow dots being produced in Flash's main and moving out to a rally point, at the very last frame you can see one of these dots out past the yellow blob that is the natural
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I think the psycological side is probably the problem, flash was probably hoping he could at least tire jaedong out, maybe they should've replayed with some form of special rule like playing for the rematch. So they would play again, if jaedong wins he gets the win and if flash wins, the game would be replayed, but this time it actually counts whereas before only jaedong could win a point and flash was playing for a rematch. So flash has to win 2, jaedong 1. My idea is bound to have tons of flaws but just a suggestion.
I dunno obv it wasnt fair but neither was replaying outright, oh well, no use crying over spilt milk i guess.
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On January 23 2010 23:40 Cassius wrote:
This is probably a really moot point, but you can clearly see seconds before the power went out that Flash's M/M was 3/3. You can also see another stream of yellow most likely another control group of M/M halfway to the base, while Jaedong only had 1 ultra 3 lings and a defiler in his base. I know there was more on the way, but I feel like if the defiler is irradiated and that base is taken out its now completely even with upgrades and base power. Jaedong's tech tree is already climbed, if Flash decides to take a couple minutes to incorporate siege mode after he possibly takes out that base then it's a completely different game IMO. This was wayyyy to close to call, I think they should have redid the game, or Jaedong should have manned up with some good sportsmanship and GG'd the 4th game and take it to a 5th. The 5th game would be on Matchpoint where Jaedong just owned Flash in less than 10 mins with ridge Muta micro.
Really good point and people have been overlooking it.. :/. Flash had MnM coming out of his raxs and you can see that on the minimap before it crashed. You definitely cannot call it. JD still needed to power economy to pump an army to crush Flash (which he didn't have btw before anyone says it, you can see like 4 lings and an ultra moving across the map before it cuts out and that's it)
JD would need to get a perfect swarm off in Flash's min only to seal the game quickly and there's plenty of ways Flash could have stopped that and delayed the game considerably longer. It deserved a rematch :/
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