EPTThe point I'm attempting to make is this: there's a sentiment, expressed by yourself and others, that unless the game in indisputably over in favor of one player, it should be a regame. There's a sentiment that an awarded game should not happen in the finals under circumstances. There's a sentiment that it doesn't really matter how badly Jaedong was winning, it should have been a regame. And my point is: I find this point of view ridiculous. It *very much* matters how far ahead Jaedong was. It *very much* matters how close to dead Flash was. As if it were only a slight lead, the KeSPA decision is clearly bad. But if Flash really was in serious trouble - 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th type trouble - then the decision was the right one. Hence, it seems to me that the debate should not be whether it's ever right to give a win in the finals, but whether Jaedong's lead was sufficient to warrant it.
[MSL] Power Underwhelming - Page 24
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Steve496
United States60 Posts
The point I'm attempting to make is this: there's a sentiment, expressed by yourself and others, that unless the game in indisputably over in favor of one player, it should be a regame. There's a sentiment that an awarded game should not happen in the finals under circumstances. There's a sentiment that it doesn't really matter how badly Jaedong was winning, it should have been a regame. And my point is: I find this point of view ridiculous. It *very much* matters how far ahead Jaedong was. It *very much* matters how close to dead Flash was. As if it were only a slight lead, the KeSPA decision is clearly bad. But if Flash really was in serious trouble - 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th type trouble - then the decision was the right one. Hence, it seems to me that the debate should not be whether it's ever right to give a win in the finals, but whether Jaedong's lead was sufficient to warrant it. | ||
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battarro
United States59 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
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phlamez
United States96 Posts
Would it have been shitty for Jaedong to replay a Terran favored map? Yes, it sucks but that was the fault of the map pool to begin with, under this interpretation of fairness we should have just handed Jaedong a game to begin with to counteract the map imbalance which is retarded. | ||
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duncannidaho
United States3 Posts
On January 26 2010 00:27 project_d.rock wrote: I understand that the game cannot be continued. But are there really no decisions that could be more fair than giving Jaedong the game or having a rematch on that same map? Put yourself in JD's shoes. Is there really a decision that'd make you satisfied for having being in the lead in an uphill battle of a terran favoured map? Honestly, I can't really see any. Would ya have to make Flash play Zerg against JD on the same map while JD plays terran? lol. Really though, I can't make a decision that would be fair for JD in ANY situation. Seeing as how he was in the lead, I'd think the only decision that'd be fair for him would be the only decision - but that's just me. Redo the game and that favors Flash who was in the losing position not because of anyone else but because of himself (and jaedong doing well to defend) So yeah, if you can answer your own question with any other better decision that would favor jaedong for having been in the lead, go out and attempt to say it. I mean, fantasy had said the game was Jaedong's. Now people can complain about the decision all they want. But really, giving the other options, there really wasn't much they can do and I can't say you can blame them for their decision when no one else can really give out another decision that would be fair. And no, a regame is not fair. It's just not. Go play 3 quarters of a football game, you're in the lead, you're playing AWAY, and most every expert out there is saying that there's little chance aside from your own team making a huge mistake that you'd lose. Game ends, you CAN'T continue. You can't sit there and say, "oh well, looks like ya gotta restart from scratch!" What exactly is fair? you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.> | ||
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LarJarsE
United States1378 Posts
On January 26 2010 05:42 dogabutila wrote: So basically, whenever I am about to lose instead of GG I should just kick out a power cable? If you have been reading this thread at all, you would understand that we are talking about how the power went out, and the person who was ahead at the moment of the crash won the game. If flash "kicked out his power cable" when he was about to lose against Jaedong, he would have received a loss and there would be no rematch. Dont kick out the power cable, ever. | ||
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project_d.rock
United States5 Posts
On January 26 2010 02:17 Steve496 wrote: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. I mean, I feel that the arguments in terms of Flash's small army size and dwindling economy versus Jaedong's stable position and growing economy is fairly compelling. Some people - apparently including yourself - don't. And that's fine. It's just hard to argue the point when you dismiss the significant and detailed analysis of the situation that has occurred as "biased". Which is not to say that there aren't some people on that side of the debate who are biased - I'm just noting that every detailed analysis I've seen based on counting units and econ comes up heavily in Jaedong's favor, and all the arguments in favor of Flash seem to come down to "well, it's Flash, and SC is a dynamic game, so maybe he could do something cool". If you feel otherwise, so be it. As I say, I'm not really here to debate that. The point I'm attempting to make is this: there's a sentiment, expressed by yourself and others, that unless the game in indisputably over in favor of one player, it should be a regame. There's a sentiment that an awarded game should not happen in the finals under circumstances. There's a sentiment that it doesn't really matter how badly Jaedong was winning, it should have been a regame. And my point is: I find this point of view ridiculous. It *very much* matters how far ahead Jaedong was. It *very much* matters how close to dead Flash was. As if it were only a slight lead, the KeSPA decision is clearly bad. But if Flash really was in serious trouble - 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th type trouble - then the decision was the right one. Hence, it seems to me that the debate should not be whether it's ever right to give a win in the finals, but whether Jaedong's lead was sufficient to warrant it. I've never once said that it doesn't matter how far ahead Jaedong was. In fact, that's my entire point. If we're going to say that it's possible to determine at X time that the game can be awarded to player A, then not only should X time be a point where it's nearly impossible for player B to win, X time should be something that can committed to so that should a situation like this ever happen again, we could--through the same set of tests--determine who would win. And I am not comfortable with using game 3 of this series as a precedent. I also did not say they should have played the game again. In fact I've said over and over that both decisions are equally unfair. I'd be equally as uncomfortable about that and I'm sure there'd be all the rage and uproar over it too. My question is, are there any other options that (mathematically, if we could) would be less unfair overall? Of course in hindsight it's easier to see how out of balance awarding game 3 made game 4. Our difference isn't that we disagree over whether a game can be awarded to someone. It's that you're sure that Jaedong was far enough ahead that it was impossible for Flash to win. I'm not, though I believe that Jaedong clearly was ahead. I mean in the end this is one of those "we'll never know" situations. I don't want to make this a bigger deal than it really is the grand scheme of things. I have nothing at stake in either player. | ||
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project_d.rock
United States5 Posts
On January 26 2010 06:23 duncannidaho wrote: you might get by with saying if Jaedong chooses the map to be played - then again, I'd still say people would not be okay with that if JD won. And again, those aren't in the rules and haven't been in the rules...... so ask yourself what they could have done >.> If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it. I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win. | ||
KwarK
United States42520 Posts
On January 26 2010 08:24 project_d.rock wrote: If Jaedong won after choosing a map as a "rematch" of sorts (and I'm still shaky on supporting this) I would be 100% fine with it. I know that option isn't in the rules, but according to Chill, neither is awarding a player a win. The rules are the referee can choose what to do. There is clear precedent for the referee doing this before (Bisu vs July on Blue Storm). This is within the rules and has been done before. | ||
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Gumbo
Canada807 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On January 26 2010 09:58 KwarK wrote: The rules are the referee can choose what to do. There is clear precedent for the referee doing this before (Bisu vs July on Blue Storm). This is within the rules and has been done before. This is you know.. slightly different seeing as it was an important game in the Bo5 of a GRAND FINAL. Everyone saying that the psychological impact of just losing the game 1-2 is much lower than you getting the game completely taken away from you in the first place is absolutely right. In hindsight it was akin to awarding Jaedong 2 games, not just one. I also love the whole map imbalance issue, as if that's a fault of Flash's to begin with. Maybe if the MSL had some freaking maps that were actually balanced we wouldn't have such a stupid issue to begin with. | ||
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aRod
United States758 Posts
1. Jaedong had a clear resource advantage, although not a major overwhelming power economy. 2. Flash recently became fully upgraded and appeared to be regrouping his army for either another assault on 7 or some other purpose. 3. Flash had 3 vessels, and 10 seconds before the outage used 1 Irradiate on an Ultra, and 2 other irradiates about 35 seconds before the outage. 4. Flash had been the aggressor the past 5 minutes. 5. The remaining two Ultralisk were badly damaged at 7. 6. 1 Ultra and a group of lings appeared to be in route. Unknowns: 1. How much longer was required before another irradiate was ready to take out the lone defiler at 7? 2. How many forces did Jaedong have available to nydus over to support 7 if Flash was only regrouping to make another assault? And the most important question is 1. Would 7 fall? If 7 was likely to fall, all of the position and resource arguments in favor of Jaedong are much weaker. The match appeared to be at the tipping point. And the tipping point was the battle for 7. Flash had been assaulting and assaulting that expansion. Towards the very last seconds before the blackout, and most people here agree, Jaedong had finally secured 7. He had two sunkens down, a defiler in defense, and who knows what else to shuttle over in the Nydus. Flash was for the first time retreating, and it did not appear that the remaining group of M&M posed a sufficient threat to 7 to warrant a regame. Jaedong wins. All the people arguing about it being a "T favored map" or the "Psychological impact of a regame," don't seem to understand that these points have NO RELEVANCE in determining whether or not a regame should be awarded. If you can't see this, read the rules. | ||
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realdksea
United States1 Post
How the hell could that be happend? | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
Obviously nobody cares, and it doesn't matter anymore, but I want my opinion out in the open. You can't give out starleague titles based on a player simply having an advantage. And as far as pulling random statistics like "Jaedong had it 99%" .... that is completely arbitrary and meaningless. Now I'm not claiming to be a great player or anything, but I do know a fair bit about the game, and small groups of 3-3 rines are capable of magic against late game zerg. Clearly it would have been tough for Flash, but the simple fact is that Jaedong never "won" the game, period. When I was finished watching the matches the other night, I couldn't help but feel that esports permanently lost something that night in terms of legitimacy. If we looked hard enough, we saw the ugly reality of professional starcraft, that it is on the life support that is cashflow. So much for fair competition, sportsmanship, and love of the game. It is true that there was no way to make a fair decision after the power failure, but that does not justify anything. It's not like this scenario was not totally unpredictable. It was inevitably going to happen at some point, we are talking about a PC game running on Windows. Such scenarios should have been taken into consideration when planning ie. there should have at least been an unambiguous rule to handle such situations. I feel that the entire event should have been replayed, but of course too much money was already invested in the event. Logistically it would not have been possible -- which is exactly why they should have planned better. Now I am feeling something that I haven't experienced in well over three years. I complete lack of interest in watching professional nerds play broodwar. | ||
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KwarK
United States42520 Posts
On January 26 2010 11:05 Jayme wrote: This is you know.. slightly different seeing as it was an important game in the Bo5 of a GRAND FINAL. Everyone saying that the psychological impact of just losing the game 1-2 is much lower than you getting the game completely taken away from you in the first place is absolutely right. In hindsight it was akin to awarding Jaedong 2 games, not just one. I also love the whole map imbalance issue, as if that's a fault of Flash's to begin with. Maybe if the MSL had some freaking maps that were actually balanced we wouldn't have such a stupid issue to begin with. What Kespa did was well within their rights. If a player gets a yellow card in football for something he disagrees with and argues with the ref he'll get a red card. It's his fault for not keeping his cool, accepting these things happen and getting his head back in the game. It's not Kespa's job to worry about whether Flash wouldn't be able to hack it, that's not their concern. It's Flash's job to act like a professional, to acknowledge these things happen and to maintain his cool. Obviously that's made harder for him by the extremely unhelpful reactions of his father and team but those aren't Kespa's fault. If a referee ends up sending a player off because he loses his cool over a yellow card you don't go "that was totally unfair, he may have only given him a yellow card but it was totally gonna result in a red". You blame the player for being unprofessional. If your argument is that Flash cannot separate his mental state from his game then that is a criticism of him as a player and no fault of anybody but him. | ||
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JdT
United States2 Posts
It's now a matter of what happened and what can we (meaning tournament hosts and SC lovers) do to assure this will never be a problem again. Basically how can we fix what can be fixed to try to avoid putting ref's, players and fans in a situation like this. Is this as easy as a battery back up? Can Blizzard be petitioned for a special tournament widget that auto-saves on the ref's computer every x seconds? I'm mad as hell about this. Not the decision. I'm mad the they allowed something as simple as data integrity to interfere with the outcome of one of the most anticipated SC matches ever. That is the mega blunder. That's what everyone should be raising cane about. Was the judges decision fair? Not the right question. Why was this situation allowed to occur and how is it avoided in the future. That's the right one. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On January 26 2010 06:29 larjarse wrote: If you have been reading this thread at all, you would understand that we are talking about how the power went out, and the person who was ahead at the moment of the crash won the game. If flash "kicked out his power cable" when he was about to lose against Jaedong, he would have received a loss and there would be no rematch. Dont kick out the power cable, ever. Sorry, i should have quoted the person just above me. | ||
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Iri
150 Posts
On January 26 2010 13:14 KwarK wrote: What Kespa did was well within their rights. If a player gets a yellow card in football for something he disagrees with and argues with the ref he'll get a red card. It's his fault for not keeping his cool, accepting these things happen and getting his head back in the game. It's not Kespa's job to worry about whether Flash wouldn't be able to hack it, that's not their concern. It's Flash's job to act like a professional, to acknowledge these things happen and to maintain his cool. Obviously that's made harder for him by the extremely unhelpful reactions of his father and team but those aren't Kespa's fault. If a referee ends up sending a player off because he loses his cool over a yellow card you don't go "that was totally unfair, he may have only given him a yellow card but it was totally gonna result in a red". You blame the player for being unprofessional. If your argument is that Flash cannot separate his mental state from his game then that is a criticism of him as a player and no fault of anybody but him. Well said. Flash's loss in game 4 was nobody's "fault" so much as his own. His team and father certainly made it more difficult for him, but no blame can be assigned to anyone else for that loss. Outrage over the result of game 3? Certainly, a great deal of blame can be apportioned between the host location and the sponsoring organization (by which I mean MBC, not KESPA.) But game 4? All Flash, baby. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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