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On January 25 2010 03:10 bias- wrote:
The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong.
A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play.
Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
Well that's the problem i think, we got 2 great games as apetizer. Then come the 3rd wonderful game and BAM blackout. We saw only a small part of Jaedong amazing play when i was expecting a full dish of it.
It as if you're near climax then suddenly you're kicked in the balls. xD
Edit : First there's suprise, then you're hurting, and in the end you're angry a bit like what's happening now on TL.
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A 3rd party organization should host a "rematch" tournament with Flash vs JD
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On January 24 2010 21:20 roMAD wrote:I've asked  fantasy what he thought and he said the decision to give the game to Jaedong was the right one, as he simply put it "jaedong win"
Something might have gotten lost in the translation?
Super awesome that you talk to Fantasy though :D
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-_-
I don't think we should be angry at Kespa. Did they make the right decison? I think they should have done a regame, but their decision wasn't terrible.
What we should be angry at is the MSL/allowing such an event to occur (the power outage). Its pretty fucking ridiculous that can happen at the MSL FINALS. I can't help but feel it taints the victory of Jaedong, just a little.
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On January 25 2010 06:20 ItchReliever wrote:
A 3rd party organization should host a "rematch" tournament with Flash vs JD
gomtv please.
they did the show match jaedong vs bisu, they now need to do jaedong vs flash gogo
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United States1719 Posts
To all the people whining about kespa's judgement: ffs stop. If they had set up a rematch, it wouldve created a torrent of jaedong fans raging. Either way one of the players was getting screwed because of the outage. channel your rage towards mbc game not kespa; kespa has definitely fucked up in the past in several occasions but this one was beyond their powers.
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I feel bad for both players. It seems ridiculous at this day and age where there isn't some way to recreate the game exactly how it was, with unit placement, hp levels and all.
SC2 really needs a map state recovery feature.
for sure and i hope Blizzard is watching this example. For esports to be treated seriously especially in the US some better tech or rules need to be worked out to prevent this sort of thing. It's almost like in MMA where after an eye gouge or low blow, there's an attempt to recreate the last positioning for the two fighters when the fight restarts. Other than that, re game is pretty necessary. Flash wasn't in a absolute lose situation, he hadn't taken any damage to any of his bases and who's to say he couldn't have defended a 3rd adequately. On the other hand, i don't think JD should have surrendered the next game auto matically like some people think. He's not a fool. He knew who he was going up against. They may be friends and practice partners in RL but this is the championships. Too bad this trophy will always have an asterisk next to it. JD played great aside from the misuse of GS tech and would have crushed any other terran in the world.
Thinking about the technical mishap we forget to mention how much of an epic game 3 was. I think it was ballsy to rush to hive relying on tech and upgrades, and then have to defend for so long without dark swarm or lurkers. After sucessfully defending the 7:00 it was clear that it was the right choice although i don't see any other zerg other than JD making it work. Flash was amazing too with constant pressure, finally killing the 1:00 and forcing JD to lose his muta group.
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I don't claim to be an expert at this game, but I'm surprised so many people are "okay" with giving Jaedong the win. Is StarCraft some kind of static sport where you can calculate an advantage by assigning points to units, map placement and economy? Do they, after calculating the points of pieces in chess and adding values to board control, stop the game at an arbitrary point in time because player X has such an advantage? What about football games where you're about to lose, but in a last-second extra point kick you block the kick, grab the ball, and run all the way for a winning touchdown? 1.5 seconds in a basketball game for one last shot from the sidelines?
There are plenty of examples of SC games where one player was clearly ahead. And yet, the game continued to take unbelievable turns until the opposing player pulled out a victory. If a similar situation had occurred and you called the game in one player's favor you would have missed out on an incredible comeback, and an incredible game.
Because SC is a dynamic game, and if it's going to be a sport you can't be okay with calling games until there is, without any absolute doubt, no possible way for one side to win. A football game with one team down by 21 points with 1 minute left. A basketball game 100-90 and 30 seconds left.
There must have been other options; I don't see why it had to be "Jaedong wins" or "rematch." Why not just skip the game entirely? Move on to game 4. And then game 5. If by then it's 2-2, give a nod to Jaedong's advantage in game 3 and allow him to choose the map for the final game. Redo the series later with different maps. Give the game to Jaedong but make it a Bo7, I don't know but there are more than 2 possibilities.
To just say Jaedong won is a disservice to the sport. Everyone is right; there were no good decisions, but this one was one of the poorer ones.
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On January 25 2010 05:22 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2010 04:33 ODiE wrote:
Some PLEASE reply to my question:
1. How does a frickin heat fan- thats what a couple of volts?- able to cut the power on an entire building?
2. How is this godam building so poorly set up that it has no back up?
Props to MBC and Nate.
1: It's not earthed properly. 2: Human error. In this case, the electrician.
Not earthed properly? should only cause his own computer to shortage, not the entire building.
Human error? a massive company like MBC and Nate to make an error on back up? I don't think so, if such a thing truly happened, then the designers of the building are sure to get fired and never find the light of day again.
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On January 24 2010 20:52 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:I feel that no, that isn't reasonable. Dealing in this situation when you are on the winning side is hardly any effort at all. Being on the losing side is when it's hard. But that is not all, being on the losing side while your coaches and father are raging hard leading to your dad being removed by security is not something that would leave anyone uninfluenced.
Jaedong dealt better with what was thrown his way but it was also not in the very least comparable to what Flash had to deal with. The fourth game was played on completely unfair grounds and postponing it would have been the right thing to do. For the large part these unfair mental grounds were created by Flash' dad and not the decision itself.
You make a fair point that the tough mental conditions were created by Flash's dad/team, as opposed to the game itself. I don't really have an answer to that beyond my own personal feelings that, since that was neither player's fault, nor the fault of KESPA/MBC/audience/anyone except Flash's support team, postponing the game would have penalized a lot of parties who didn't deserve it, while letting those who created the issue have their way... which leads me to the conclusion that, once KT/Flashdad created such a bad situation, KESPA had no choice but to continue the series.
Honestly, I still feel like the series went to the right person, as Jaedong had beaten Flash in Game 1 using the same strat that Flash had beaten - repeatedly - from every other major zerg in Korea, just on the strength of his mechanics. But you're right, Flash did have to deal with more mental strain caused by game 3 than Jaedong.
Oh well, still some terrific Starcraft for the first 3 games. :-D
EDIT: Apparently I need to clarify. I am referring primarily to game 4 and the various factors that played into the result when I say that Flash's mental state was something he failed to overcome. There are grounds for complaint regarding game 3, but not game 4.
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i honestly think they should have regamed because theres to many unknowns of what flash was capable of to combat it.
but ima agree that no matter what the situation was a player would have been screwed regardless of decision. so i will say that if a win HAD to be given then yes it would be more fair to award it to jaedong. but its BS either way for that to happen at a msl finals of all places.
i WANTED jaedong to win. i did not want flash to take the victory and was with jaedong all the way. but for him to win like that is just so anti climatic and just unappealing. it didnt feel like a REAL win at all and im sure alot of korean fans and especially flash fans will feel as if jaedong was struck with pure luck. u can tell at the vicotry celebration that no one hardly cared and almost half the stadium left as if to say "wtf thats BS! fuk that im going home." you can even see that when they came from commercial break right before game 4 ALOT of people already left the stadium after they gave the win to jaedong. and flash was just not himself in game 4 and seem just wrecked.
just honestly did not feel like a real win and tbh even if jaedong did have that match and as much of a fan i am of jaedong ill never consider it a real win.
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But it is Kespa's fault.
As the organization, they have to set up the provisions to help prevent this from happening. On this day and age the price for an UPC to backup 2 computers routers, and judges and observers is less than $500, that is a minimal investment Kespa can require out the organizations that run the Tournaments, Nate, Ever, etc,
A rematch was the, or a complete cancellation or postponing of the event, or making it a Bo7 would have been a more better choice than awarding such a crucial game arbitraty to one player.
For all those who claim Kespa made the right call, would you say the same if this would have been the final game? If the winner would have been decided by a judge, instead of the players.
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I don't claim to be an expert at this game, but I'm surprised so many people are "okay" with giving Jaedong the win. Is StarCraft some kind of static sport where you can calculate an advantage by assigning points to units, map placement and economy? Do they, after calculating the points of pieces in chess and adding values to board control, stop the game at an arbitrary point in time because player X has such an advantage? What about football games where you're about to lose, but in a last-second extra point kick you block the kick, grab the ball, and run all the way for a winning touchdown? 1.5 seconds in a basketball game for one last shot from the sidelines?
There are plenty of examples of SC games where one player was clearly ahead. And yet, the game continued to take unbelievable turns until the opposing player pulled out a victory. If a similar situation had occurred and you called the game in one player's favor you would have missed out on an incredible comeback, and an incredible game.
Because SC is a dynamic game, and if it's going to be a sport you can't be okay with calling games until there is, without any absolute doubt, no possible way for one side to win. A football game with one team down by 21 points with 1 minute left. A basketball game 100-90 and 30 seconds left.
There must have been other options; I don't see why it had to be "Jaedong wins" or "rematch." Why not just skip the game entirely? Move on to game 4. And then game 5. If by then it's 2-2, give a nod to Jaedong's advantage in game 3 and allow him to choose the map for the final game. Redo the series later with different maps. Give the game to Jaedong but make it a Bo7, I don't know but there are more than 2 possibilities.
To just say Jaedong won is a disservice to the sport. Everyone is right; there were no good decisions, but this one was one of the poorer ones.
I think you should acquaint yourself with a better analogy. Y'see, baseball games can get cancelled due to the weather pretty often in a rainout. Here's what can happen...
# If the game has completed the top half of the 5th inning and the home team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The home team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings.
# If the game has completed the bottom half of the 5th inning and either team is ahead, the game can be deemed an official game. The leading team is declared the winner, and the game officially counts in standings. from rainout(sports) wiki.
it also says a tie would have it be scheduled later and start where they left off (not really possible here)
As you can see, the game can be called even if there's a chance there's a way to come back. Hell, it's possible to get 20 points in the last inning. Of course, that's highly unlikely. Again, aside from their own judgement, what other better way to handle a situation in one person is winning (and pretty clearly if ya look at the replays, flash would have to have been lucky to win (not sayin it's not possible, i'm just saying - 20 points in the last inning is possible, just chances aren't, same as chances were that flash wouldn't be able to come back.)
Can call it a bad decision or a poor decision all you like but it's not fair to have extra games to someone who was winning. And he was winning, (at the time at least)
I mean really, if you're playing football and you're up 21 points at the last minute and something goes wrong. I'd be super pissed that the other team would get a chance to redeem themselves after being in the losing position. What you're basically saying is this: Even though our team was beating ya home field (terran favoured) if we can beat you at your home field it's okay (despite seeing the playbook they had to offer in that game) How is that fair for them when they had the win pretty much in the bag?
Also one of the bigger differences between rescheduling this, even if they could and would, is that it hardly makes it live and hardly makes it quick thinking. Giving them plenty of time to think of what to do next. The game ended when it did and jaedong was winning. There's really not much else to say. The only thing you can argue would be if he was clearly winning or there was an even shot at both winning. And i think flash had the burden on him.
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On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote:
Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory.
It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know.
It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic
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I second what Day[9] said on another thread:
I feel bad for Jaedong.
Jaedong played brilliantly against Flash, who the vast majority was betting on heavily, and now his rightfully won games 1 and 4 are totally eclipsed by a referee decision on game 3 that most ppl believe he was clearly winning as well, against all odds.
I also second Day[9] on another aspect:
Shame on MBC for such miserable fail, not just the power outage but the whole set up.
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you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
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wth people stop it. This is not baseball or chess or blabla, it`s starcraft. And yes, JD would`ve won that game anyway.
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Wimbledon would be a fucked up tournament if they had kespa-rules.
As many have said, it doesn't matter if jaedong would have one in 99/100. This will leave bitter taste to the winner in any way. To not be able to be proud of your victorys, just because some organisation wants to take the easy way out.. bleh, unforgivable.
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On January 25 2010 15:30 battarro wrote:
you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
"you are being a clear ****". where does it say that the game is replayed?! "The game picks up from where it left off.". And u can`t pick the game up from where it was in starcraft, so bad analogy.
Also read my post before this. Things should be clear if you think for a second and stop the bias towards flash.
The only thing is that it rubbed us the pleasure of a great final, because of the 4th game that followed. The decision was the best that they could`ve taken.
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congrats to jaedong, its just unfortunate that game 3 happened
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EPT
