EPTHe got disadvantage for sure, but JDs first two gases were almost depleted and he got 1 base up and running and that 7oclock base was almost saturated. Advantage to JD but not 99% lol. It's Flash.
[MSL] Power Underwhelming - Page 20
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
He got disadvantage for sure, but JDs first two gases were almost depleted and he got 1 base up and running and that 7oclock base was almost saturated. Advantage to JD but not 99% lol. It's Flash. | ||
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sechkie
United States334 Posts
On January 24 2010 12:56 Breach_hu wrote: Flash was 3-3 at the ending point as i could see. He got disadvantage for sure, but JDs first two gases were almost depleted and he got 1 base up and running and that 7oclock base was almost saturated. Advantage to JD but not 99% lol. It's Flash. but it's okay since Jaedong had picked up the dual gas expansion at the 7 so he was replenishing his gas supply, also I'm not sure on this but I believe that the terran will run out of minerals faster for whatever reason (worker saturation), but I'm not sure on this. Oh and one more thing, if someone says the game isn't over because it's Flash, someone else can say the exact same thing and say game over because it's Jaedong, both of these players are definitely the best in the game right now, if only Bisu would make a comeback >.< | ||
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duckhunt
Canada311 Posts
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Apexplayer
United States406 Posts
To me, It seems there is alot of JD fanboys here but most of you prolly know more than me. I just don't think flash is well represented. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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deus_073
Romania187 Posts
JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up. Re-match, the only way to go. 5 running gas? Do you think JD stockpiled it? I know flash did, i know how much gas T's have in the bank after 18 minutes. 3-4 bases did JD have? Well, the 7 o'clock had only 3 drones mining minerals. He had 2 gases, but you know what goes great with gas? Minerals! Main almost out, expo almost out, and that expo near the main. So he had 2+1/2 bases. Flash had 1 mineral only (fresh) and almost mined out expo (not mined out, you can see it on the minimap). Flash would have taken those odds! Retreating? He has M&M's, of course he is retreating, that's what medic and marine forces do! He had 3-3, not 2-2. JD had 2 sunkens, 2 ultras, 3 zerlings, 2 scourge. Flash would have been able to produce m&m. Not a lot, but he could produce, there is no doubt about this. And you've seen what Flash is able to do with those medic walls. This is pure BS. And we're listening to people saying - hey, kespa did the right thing. Fuck Kespa. They screwed up. Re-match for the spirit of the game, for the fans, for everyone. Neither of the players could have said anything. Now Flash can say something. Was JD in the lead? Sure. Was he overwhelmingly in the lead? No. Re-match? Yes. | ||
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Plethora
United States206 Posts
If it happens one minute earlier its almost certainly a regame, one minute later and its probably a hell of a lot easier to call it for JD. I don't necessarily think it was a bad decision, but it absolutely leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I'm sure it does for many people. It was probably the more fair of the two options but I have always really disliked Kespa calling games in almost any situation. As others have pointed out, had there been no outage and Flash managed to take the game, it would not have been the biggest comeback in Starcraft history, and Flash was deprived of the chance to make that happen. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 24 2010 17:05 Plethora wrote: If it happens one minute earlier its almost certainly a regame, one minute later and its probably a hell of a lot easier to call it for JD. oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case. Like others have said (as well as deus_073 just above), had game 2 crashed a few mins before the end, it would be heavily weighed in JDs favor (bases, tech, econ, map control). | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
 jaedong's win (was going to happen) is forever tainted. | ||
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Shatter
United States1401 Posts
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Steve496
United States60 Posts
On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over. Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not. Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 24 2010 17:49 Steve496 wrote: Bull. Games often have turning points, where before that point it's uncertain who will win, but after it's fairly clear. For instance, lets use the class Bisu/July example that keeps popping up. Taking a look at the game (here): at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win. It's hard to argue that July doesn't kill a bunch of probes, tech, and/or nexuses if he's given another 60 seconds. But 60 seconds earlier (that'd be at 6:32 in the vid), July was just starting his bust, and it was completely unclear whether it was going to work or not. Games can go from "very indecisive" to "very decisive" in very short periods of time. And in SC, a minute is a *long* time. Say what you will about just how decisive it was for Jaedong, but it was certainly looking a lot worse for Flash than it had a minute previously. I'm familiar with that game, and you can't bring that as a comparable example. You even said as much - "at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win". I'm not (nor ever did) disagree with that. The only 'bull' is saying that this match at the time of the outage was comparable to that game. Lets see, flash had just taken a fresh min-only expo, and was still mining off his nat. at the time of the outage, he was still producing (and since we have no replay we cant even see how much gas he has stored up or left in the nat). Consider that since his strat used pure SK Terran m&m (no tanks), he likely had a fair bit of gas saved, as he was only using it for vessels and medics (where as JDs gas has been used on mass mutas/ultras and defilers). I'm not saying flash had the game in the bag, nor that JD was losing (or would have lost had it gone on). All I'm saying (and have been) is that the match was not over. | ||
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NoobStyles
Australia257 Posts
On January 24 2010 16:40 deus_073 wrote: Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up. Am i the only one that thinks this is quite possibly the worst ZvT build ever. Its super easy to scout with scan. A greater spires take 2mins to morph +the qnest and hive time for terran to scan and see something is up. No lurks to use scanner energy on. A super easy hard counter that's already build right into any standard TvZ bio build (quick starport). T doesn't even get punished for not having vessels quite a fast because theirs, no lurks and no defiler. To be fair to JDs version its the best ive seen. A straight up 2hat into 3gas fast gards in the worst build Ive ever seen. Im not exaggerating the lest when i say as soon as I sore the greater spire, I put JDs chance of winning a 0% | ||
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zFly
United States75 Posts
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Steve496
United States60 Posts
On January 24 2010 17:59 moopie wrote: I'm familiar with that game, and you can't bring that as a comparable example. You even said as much - "at the point the game ended - both gateways down, no offensive units save corsair, no potential for getting them - it's pretty clearly a July win". I'm not (nor ever did) disagree with that. The only 'bull' is saying that this match at the time of the outage was comparable to that game. Lets see, flash had just taken a fresh min-only expo, and was still mining off his nat. at the time of the outage, he was still producing (and since we have no replay we cant even see how much gas he has stored up or left in the nat). Consider that since his strat used pure SK Terran m&m (no tanks), he likely had a fair bit of gas saved, as he was only using it for vessels and medics (where as JDs gas has been used on mass mutas/ultras and defilers). I'm not saying flash had the game in the bag, nor that JD was losing (or would have lost had it gone on). All I'm saying (and have been) is that the match was not over. I'm not attempting to argue about how over this game was. I'm merely attempting to point out that the argument you made - that because the game was close a minute before, it was too close to call when it ended - is ludicrous. Games can and do change that fast. Hence the state of the game a minute previously (which was, I freely concede, far more even) isn't at all relevant to how close the game was at the end. It needs to be assessed at how close it was at the end, not how close it was before several key exchanges played out. In terms of how close the game actually was - I'm going to make no effort to assess that. I'm not a good SC player. I'm a decently informed observer, and no more. I will say that my perception while watching it was that if Flash failed to break the double gas he was going to be in bad shape, and it looked to me like said failure was imminent. But given that I have absolutely no credibility in terms of asserting how close (or not) it was, I'm not even going to try, beyond noting that the overwhelming weight of opinion in this and other threads is that Jaedong's lead was somewhere between "very significant" and "overwhelming". The other argument I've seen is the fact that Flash had previously been up in that game, and that Jaedong had been ahead in game 2. The difference, as I see it, is that it was still clear how the game could still go to either player. In game 2, yes, Jaedong was on 4 bases vs 2 with hive tech... but it was pretty easy to say "if Flash harasses well with drops or air units he can get back in this economically". It was pretty easy to say "he builds wraiths out of the two starports he already has and shut down those guardians". Jaedong may have had an advantage, but there were clear ways that Flash could attack it. Similarly, after Jaedong lost top right, it looked bad - he was on 3 bases vs 2 with a big Terran ball coming at him. But you could look at it and say "well, yeah, that's going to be a problem, but Jaedong has quite a few ultras so if he gets off a good flank he has a shot". There's a clear route to victory - or at least, to getting back in the game. Problem with where game 3 ended, as I see it, is that that's really not very true of Flash. All the theories of how Flash comes back range from the ill-informed ("Flash had a secure third and was going to stomp all over Jaedong's double gas") to the highly speculative ("Well, if Flash builds two dropships and dumps his entire army into simultaneous drops on main and 3, while bluffing Jaedong into staying behind to defend the double gas, without Jaedong catching on that he can push and win, he might do enough damage to keep the game going") to the outright ludicrous (BCs!). Flash's situation is far more dire than it ever had been in game 2. Jaedong was never in as much trouble in game 3 as Flash was at the end. I'd have a lot more faith in the "Flash was still in it" camp if they could come up with a cohesive plan as to how he stays in it that doesn't involve a) tech we know he didn't have, b) money we know he didn't have, and/or c) Jaedong playing like a complete and total moron. I'm not saying no such plan exists - I just haven't seen it. And until I do, I confess myself sympathetic to the side of the debate that argues the decision to award Jaedong the win was justified. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 24 2010 18:47 Steve496 wrote: I'm not attempting to argue about how over this game was. I'm merely attempting to point out that the argument you made - that because the game was close a minute before, it was too close to call when it ended - is ludicrous. I found it amusing that you claimed you are trying to counter my argument (to which you first responded about the game not being over), yet you completely ignored the sentence that followed the one you quoted. Here you go: On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: ... its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case. This was also my main problem with you using the Bisu/July match as an example. On January 24 2010 17:49 Steve496 wrote: The other argument I've seen is the fact that Flash had previously been up in that game, and that Jaedong had been ahead in game 2. The difference, as I see it, is that it was still clear how the game could still go to either player. In game 2, yes, Jaedong was on 4 bases vs 2 with hive tech... but it was pretty easy to say "if Flash harasses well with drops or air units he can get back in this economically". It was pretty easy to say "he builds wraiths out of the two starports he already has and shut down those guardians". Jaedong may have had an advantage, but there were clear ways that Flash could attack it. I don't much see the point in arguing about how over round 2 was, but from irc during that match, as well as on the actual MSL thread (which got posted on constantly during the sets), people were at least partially writing Flash off, saying how he was getting mined out, had no tanks, very low vessel count, only a couple of control groups of m&m and JD was all over the place. Again, one could say that it was 60/40, or 70/30, or 99.9% (yes that has come up a lot regarding match 3 from some of these 'expert' fans), but either way the game was favoring JD and some people all but gave up and were expecting an incoming gg. Flash proved otherwise with great drop play (which wouldnt have been possible without the d-matrix). I don't know about you, but I for one didn't see that as a 'good' hole in JD's defense, but it worked (was even close, hence the d-matrix). Also, I never said that Flash could have a sure-fire way to come back into set 3, I dont know what he had planned at that moment (though I really hope to see an official interview about it, if he will be 'allowed' to speak about that incident publicly). I think that had the match ended properly, even with him losing outright from that moment on, it would still qualify as quite an epic match. Regardless, he was not down and out, he was still mining, still producing. No matter how favored you want to call the odds in JD's favor (again, i could even accept some people's 90/10 opinions), the match was not over. In all previous kespa matches where technical difficulties have been the cause for the end, unless if the match is completely over as in no army/no money/etc, it is a rematch. Now I realize that demanding a rematch of JD on that map at that time would have been insanely imbalanced and unfair to him, that would not be the 'only' solution, which some people don't seem to want to recognize. I'm not about to type this all out (I and others have done so enough in the past 24 hours), but a good one would have been rescheduling the event for a few days/week, even removing this map (now that JD used his risky opening and is stuck helpless) giving the players time to prep. Either start it back up at 1-1 (thus making it a bo3), or start at 0-0. Both players would have time to compose themselves, prep new strategies, etc. Ending the most hyped up MSL finals in history w/o 3 wins isn't right. In fact, game 4 wasn't even much of a game with the way flash was. anywy, tl:dr, I'm just saying in my book, round 3 wasn't over, round 4 was heavily affected, and the victory is tainted, which is a shame, because win or lose, the main thing I was looking forward to from this series was epic matches, which that 3rd set (had it finished) would have been one of the best tvz's all season. Perhaps the two will set up a revenge match to settle things (also with any luck flash doesn't start slumping because of this experience). | ||
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rtschamp
10 Posts
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jhNz
Germany2762 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On January 24 2010 16:40 deus_073 wrote: Would set number 2, if something happened before the drops, would have been awarded to JD? JD had 4 GASSSS, JD had 4 BASES!!! JD had ultras!!! JD had guardiens!!! JD had a million sunkens, JD had had. Flash had 2 bases omg, flash's main was going on empty, flash needed siege tanks to bust those sunkens and that would have taken 500 years, plus the gas and vessels and ... and... Right....so? D-Matrix, drop-drop-drop, expo => complete turn around while JD had everything is his favor. JD was like 70-30 (AT LEAST) in that game and look what happened. Shut up. Actually, no. Because Flash had an army, had minerals, and thus had options. That is a completely different situation then this game where Flash had nothing. There is a potential for comeback when you have units and an army. Esp when you have mapcontrol. I don't know which version you have seen of set 3, the live stream version or the actual studio one that lasts :30 seconds longer then the one that went out on tv and internet (tape delays etc), but in set 3 flash was pushed out of the 7:00 and had around 10 marines left. His main had mined out, and 1 patch from the natural was just mined out meaning that the others were soon to follow. The mineral only exp flash took at 9:00 has 6 patches. Correspondingly, JD had secured the 7:00 and gotten both gas's up and running and had started the 1:00. The count is 5(3.5) to 2(.5) gas, and 12?(6) to ~20(conservative) mineral patches. Even with JD's relatively poor saturation, his economy would far outpace Flash's. Economics notwithstanding, JD had heavily reinforced his 7:00 which was running both gas with 3 workers a piece and another few drones on minerals. Flash had retreated about 10 marines and a 3-5 medics to his 9:00 to attempt to defend. Now tell me what options Flash had? Press the attack and lose everything? Counter and hope to trade his single mining base for the not defended 1:00 that was building? Perhaps try a nice drop into JD's main and kill all his tech? Attempt to turtle inside a 3 entrance base with no irradiate support or tanks against a mass of ultras and lings with swarm? Either way, he has no means of stopping the ultras and lings even disregarding swarm. If you saw the HQ vod, it would not have been surprising to see flash GG. On January 24 2010 17:13 moopie wrote: deus_073 is correct. oh ffs... So if at the outage its "a hell of a lot easier to call for JD" but 1 before that its a "rematch" (if not called in flash's favor, when he was dismantling jd's top right corner) that just proves that you can't "call it". its not over till its over. if flash had 0 minerals, 0 mining expos, and 0 army and jd was producing on everything, then sure, but that was far from the case. Like others have said (as well as deus_073 just above), had game 2 crashed a few mins before the end, it would be heavily weighed in JDs favor (bases, tech, econ, map control). Flash pretty much DID have 0 minerals, 0 mining expos (6 patchs...really?) and 0 army (10 marines..) vs JD producing everything. Again, people try to draw parallels between set 2 and set 3 simply because one player has an advantage. Yet the same people that draw this parallel seem to ignore how strikingly different the two examples are. Advantages do not all come equal. Some are greater then others, and some are only temporary. Others are inherent, and still others are lasting. I think everybody who comments on the matter should find the HQ version of the VOD and watch the end of that before making assumptions. As much of a difference as that 1 minute makes, so too does an additional 30 seconds. What seems to be a tossup with micro as the deciding factor situation turns into a GG at any moment situation. | ||
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MartT
United Kingdom88 Posts
Not directed at post above btw, was going to quote someone much earlier in thread. | ||
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