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Clearly MSL is most at fault but kespa still made a shit decision. At best this will only cast doubt on a very well deserved 5th badge. At worse they denied flash a chance to make history.
Was jd ahead? Sure. But the fairness of this decision shouldn't be determined based on what would be the most fair for that game alone. Starcraft is different from other sports because one game can have a big influence on all the other games. When a player cheeses in game 1 of a bo5 that sets the tempo for the entire series. The effect of that decision on flash is much bigger than the reverse decision for jd. I think its safe to say that at the time flash still though he had a fighting chance and to go from that to needing to 2 0 jaedong is rough and you can see it on his face. Ruling a regame does much less to jd, for kespa to say that the game was not conclusive is something that at the time jaedong could not have been too upset about.
Even if jaedong deserved to win the game it doesn't mean he deserved the massive advantage of facing an utterly discouraged and mistake prone flash in the rest of the series. If this had happened bo7 I don't think I would be this disgusted.
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On January 25 2010 16:20 phlamez wrote:
Clearly MSL is most at fault but kespa still made a shit decision. At best this will only cast doubt on a very well deserved 5th badge. At worse they denied flash a chance to make history.
Was jd ahead? Sure. But the fairness of this decision shouldn't be determined based on what would be the most fair for that game alone. Starcraft is different from other sports because one game can have a big influence on all the other games. When a player cheeses in game 1 of a bo5 that sets the tempo for the entire series. The effect of that decision on flash is much bigger than the reverse decision for jd. I think its safe to say that at the time flash still though he had a fighting chance and to go from that to needing to 2 0 jaedong is rough and you can see it on his face. Ruling a regame does much less to jd, for kespa to say that the game was not conclusive is something that at the time jaedong could not have been too upset about.
Even if jaedong deserved to win the game it doesn't mean he deserved the massive advantage of facing an utterly discouraged and mistake prone flash in the rest of the series. If this had happened bo7 I don't think I would be this disgusted.
dude, it was a map that favored terran. You honestly think that if they regame`d JD could`ve won without a plan?! It would hurt JD even more.
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On January 25 2010 15:24 adamisuber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote:
Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory. It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know. It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic
Why not? It has even been done before, please explain your reasoning behind this absolute statement
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On January 25 2010 16:24 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2010 15:24 adamisuber wrote:On January 24 2010 10:23 Tien wrote:
Read Kwark's thread on the remake of the game.
I did a troop count via minimap.
At the time of black out, Flash had 10 marines + 9 medics near his 9 expo, clearly NOT ENOUGH to break 3 sunks / 3 ultras / 6 lings / 2 defilers of energy / 6 scourges.
Flash had 2 rounds of marines (max 20) at his natural.
It would take Flash another 30 seconds to re assemble for another push into 7 because at the time of blackout those 20 marines were still stationed at his natural.
By that time, Jaedong's army would have nearly doubled! And with an economy 3x the size of Flash, Flash would have had to win in the next minute. An impossible task given the troop / economy counts. Plus Jaedong only needing to continue reinforcing / casting swarms all over the 7 expo and let his superior economy ride him to victory. It doesn't matter. You cannot give the game to someone unless it is over because you don't know. It doesn't matter anymore but they should have rematched and allowed Jaedong to choose any map in starcraft history. Would have been epic Why not? It has even been done before, please explain your reasoning behind this absolute statement
it has no logical reasoning, believe me.
edit: I mean, I`m tired of all these fanboys that simply cannot get it.
Yeah, we all feel awful that the final wasn`t the one we all expected. But it was just MBCs fault. Kespa made the right decision...maybe it`s not fair, but there was not a better one.
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This is a game JD won , of which Flash didn't type out "GG" and thus JD didn't see it.
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Sorry to sidetrack a bit.
The saying around here is that Kespa based the decision of game 3 on resources and number of bases. I read on a chinese site that it's based on population and resource.
Anyone can clarify this?
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On January 25 2010 03:10 bias- wrote:The main reason I am a fan of Lee Young Ho. That man is genuinely happy for the (complete) games played and Jaedong. A lot of the grief I think stems from the fact that this would be icing on the cake for people's idea of someone being a neo-bonjwa. The only problem is none of the players like that idea anymore due to the multitude of great players. So let my/your dream of Flash reigning invincibly supreme go for now and just accept Jaedong's amazing play. Flash seems happy despite some serious bull going down just minutes prior. We should be too.
Photoshop-ed
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just watched the matches and i believe jaedong was not on advantage on match 3... it was the worst finals ever...
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On January 25 2010 22:05 PIJAMA wrote:
just watched the matches and i believe jaedong was not on advantage on match 3... it was the worst finals ever...
ooooooh snap, just read the other 999 comments about this please.
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United States43458 Posts
On January 25 2010 22:05 PIJAMA wrote:
just watched the matches and i believe jaedong was not on advantage on match 3... it was the worst finals ever...
I think Bisu would have pulled back that game vs July. With a player as good as Bisu you just don't know.
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On January 25 2010 15:30 battarro wrote:
you are being a clear **** for not pointing out last portion of the baseball rules. Ill bold it for you.
If the game has completed the 5th inning, and the teams are tied, or if the game is a playoff game, the game is considered suspended, and the resumption of the game is scheduled for a future date (usually the following day). The game picks up from where it left off.
If the game is a playoff it will be replayed or continued.
did ya miss the part where I talked about how it can't really be continued? The only time where it says they would replay an entire game would be if it's not half way done and if it's not a playoff game, which both really don't apply.
Anyways, like I said earlier - you can't just continue it because the whole purpose is that it's a fast paced and intellect game. It's like if ya stopped chess and came back to it a day later. Any expert woulda probably had all ins and outs already known. You'd just ruin the game from starting where they left off.
My point was, is that there are a lot of sports who hardly regame. Given the fact that it's not really possible to start off where they were, I'd rather they went to the person who was winning last rather than having to restart a whole new game(for the sake of the winner).
I mean, it's obviously not fair for someone who's winning and so much time elapsed in the game that they just regame. Jaedong would have to get some advantage for being in the lead...
I can't say I've got in depth knowledge of other sports, but I don't know any other sport that'd change the number of rounds. Even if it was changed to best of 7 and you gave him that game.. It's still GIVING him the game... Whatevs though, I think it was an outstanding game and jaedong played well to hold that off and get in the position he was. Just as i think it was for flash in game 2.
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It is actually the other way around, most sport, like baseball, on a playoff situation, they replay or try to continue at a later time, they don't adjudicate the winner by committee.
Either way congrats to Jaedong and his judge appointed victory.
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I would say that Flash had to give up the game because his fan caused the problem :D
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On January 25 2010 23:13 duncannidaho wrote:
did ya miss the part where I talked about how it can't really be continued? The only time where it says they would replay an entire game would be if it's not half way done and if it's not a playoff game, which both really don't apply.
Anyways, like I said earlier - you can't just continue it because the whole purpose is that it's a fast paced and intellect game. It's like if ya stopped chess and came back to it a day later. Any expert woulda probably had all ins and outs already known. You'd just ruin the game from starting where they left off.
My point was, is that there are a lot of sports who hardly regame. Given the fact that it's not really possible to start off where they were, I'd rather they went to the person who was winning last rather than having to restart a whole new game(for the sake of the winner).
I mean, it's obviously not fair for someone who's winning and so much time elapsed in the game that they just regame. Jaedong would have to get some advantage for being in the lead...
I think the fact that baseball can be continued and SC cannot is irrelevant. If the rules are unwilling to give a team a game during the playoffs under any circumstance, then obviously there is a principle behind it that the game cannot be decided. If SC is to be respected in a similar fashion then the same principle must apply.
My point is still this. Unless you can substantiate that there was zero possibility (aside from throwing the game) for one person to win, it's at least equally unfair to say one person won as it is to rematch. At what point in time can you determine that? Forget other sports, how many SC games have we seen where we think "Oh, so and so has it in the bag" only to have the game take a completely different direction?
I understand that the game cannot be continued. But are there really no decisions that could be more fair than giving Jaedong the game or having a rematch on that same map? If a baseball game is rained out, it still cannot truly be "continued." Players will come back into the game with different thoughts and expectations. Fan reactions will be different.
Think about it this way. Despite an incredible game 1, equally strong game 3 for as long as it lasted, Jaedong will still have won game 3 by a judge decision and game 4 as an extension of that decision. That is no way to win a finals and he cannot be happy with that.
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On January 26 2010 00:27 project_d.rock wrote:I think the fact that baseball can be continued and SC cannot is irrelevant. If the rules are unwilling to give a team a game during the playoffs under any circumstance, then obviously there is a principle behind it that the game cannot be decided. If SC is to be respected in a similar fashion then the same principle must apply.
My point is still this. Unless you can substantiate that there was zero possibility (aside from throwing the game) for one person to win, it's at least equally unfair to say one person won as it is to rematch. At what point in time can you determine that? Forget other sports, how many SC games have we seen where we think "Oh, so and so has it in the bag" only to have the game take a completely different direction?
1) The fact that games can be continued in baseball is *highly* relevant. Yes, a game continued on another day is not the same game. But it's still a lot better than having to start over from scratch. I don't think you're going to find anyone - *anyone* - arguing that, if KeSPA had somehow managed to recreate the game in the exact state it was in at blackout and let the players continue from there, that that wouldn't be the optimal solution. Clearly it would be. But this is not an option. So while it's true that, per the baseball example, restarting from where it left off is better than awarding a win, that in no way implies that a regame from scratch is better than awarding a regame.
2) It's a matter of degrees. Amazing comebacks to happen in sports. But there's always the consideration of whether there's "enough time left" to turn things around. If it's the bottom of the 9th with two outs and you're still down by 10 runs... yeah, okay, it's not technically over, but it would require a serious meltdown by the opposing pitching staff to pull it off. It may not be a guaranteed win... but it's pretty darn close.
So: let's say a baseball game is 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th inning, with two outs, and hail the size of golf balls starts coming down. Finishing then and there is not an option. So they have 3 options:
a) Award the team that's up 10-0 with two outs in the bottom of the 9th the win.
b) Play the last out some other day.
c) Restart the game from scratch, 0-0 in the first inning.
Now: b may well be the fairest choice. But you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that c is more fair than a. Anything can happen... but you have to make some acknowledgement that it would take something truly improbable for it to happen.
I'm not going to argue whether or not Flash's situation was more or less dire than that. I'm not qualified to make that assessment. All I'm saying is that there *are* circumstances - even with the game isn't technically 100% decided - where awarding a win is more fair than regaming. And I do think there's a solid argument to be made that this is one of them.
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What you are missing is that on baseball, and on a playoff game. you can not award the game without being played on its entirety, even on a such lopsided scenario.
Here are the MLS rules
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/start_end_4.jsp
and here is the important part
EXCEPTION: Optional Rules 4.12(a)(7), 4.12(a)(8) and 4.12(a)(9) for National Association Leagues will not apply to the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship season or league playoffs.
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This wasn't "the last scheduled game between the two" players. That just says you can't award a championship on a rainout (or whatever). And I'm pretty sure that even then, what would be ruled in practice is that they'd pick up where they left off rather than starting a new game from scratch.
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who is to say flash wasn't about to come back out of nowhere with some amazing m&m dropship play? I thought it was known that a starcraft game can change in an instant?
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On January 26 2010 00:52 Steve496 wrote:
So: let's say a baseball game is 10-0 in the bottom of the 9th inning, with two outs, and hail the size of golf balls starts coming down. Finishing then and there is not an option. So they have 3 options:
a) Award the team that's up 10-0 with two outs in the bottom of the 9th the win.
b) Play the last out some other day.
c) Restart the game from scratch, 0-0 in the first inning.
Now: b may well be the fairest choice. But you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that c is more fair than a. Anything can happen... but you have to make some acknowledgement that it would take something truly improbable for it to happen.
I'm not going to argue whether or not Flash's situation was more or less dire than that. I'm not qualified to make that assessment. All I'm saying is that there *are* circumstances - even with the game isn't technically 100% decided - where awarding a win is more fair than regaming. And I do think there's a solid argument to be made that this is one of them.
I agree there are circumstances where awarding a win is the not just as fair as could be but probably the right thing to do, and your situation is likely one of them. The win can be substantiated, the probability of 10 runs in 1 out at the bottom of the 9th is so close to zero it's negligible.
But SC is more fluid than baseball. There are no scores, no runs, no men on base. What situation in SC is equally as dire as being 10 runs down with 1 out left at the bottom of 9th? Neither of us clearly knows if Flash's falls into that category. I've yet to read a convincing argument (that isn't blatantly biased) that game 3 was so much in favor of Jaedong (or not in favor) that a Flash comeback was nigh impossible. I still think awarding the win is equally unfair/fair as having redone the match, especially with how game 4 turned out.
And I still think there must have been another option. Until then, I fully expect Kespa to hash out some method that will consistently render a win in any future similar circumstance.
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Baseball history
Cleveland scored 9 runs on the 9th inning with two outs in a comeback to beat Washington 14-13.
Another one: The Cleveland Indians trailed the Seattle Mariners 8-1 going into the bottom of the 9th in a 2001 game, then scored 8 runs to win 9-8.
Players make mistakes, Look at JD mismanaged of his Ultra leaving them out of the Swarm and losing two of them on a clear mistake. Same as flash mistake after taking down 1:00 coming for the kill on 3:00 and being flanked by the ultras, that play was the tuning point of the game. Excellent pincer by JD, using the border as a corner.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9341/flash1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6687/flash2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7563/flash3w.jpg)
