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It is legal. Look at Mafia 2. It was effective there as the Leader was completely protected from Mafia. It's less effective in this game as we don't know the number of each role so it is harder to ferret out lying.
If you aren't playing to win, why are you playing at all? The Mafia is organized and knows their own roles. Why the fuck shouldn't we take steps to organize ourselves? Mafia are just going to claim to be something else or they are not going to PM at all. We don't learn anything. It isn't isntant win. It just allows us to act as a unit like the Mafia are rather than everyone acting randomly and possibly wasting abilities due to duplication.
Why would you be against this at all? Shady, man. Very shady.
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On March 01 2009 00:32 BWdero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 00:29 Dyno. wrote:On February 28 2009 22:55 LTT wrote:From there, everyone needs to PM the veteran their roles. I was with you until this. Is it really legal for town members to claim in private to eachother? You'll probably think I'm maf for saying this, but that's incredibly lame and allows for a scenario such as the one you described where it's very difficult for the mafia to win. It is very much legal. It's how town won in game 2. And since I was mafia in game 2 i can tell you that is indeed very hard to win against and thus very beneficial to town if we can pull it off.
My point is it's too beneficial. It's beneficial to the point that it's ridiculously imbalanced for town.
Yes, mafia could fakeclaim, but not very easily. It would be impossible to fakeclaim as a veteran, since with LTT's plan they would all be verified, so that's already a bunch of guaranteed town. They could try fakeclaiming as a paramedic, but as soon as someone died that they were supposed to protect, it would be suspicious. Of course they could choose not to kill that target, so as not to arouse suspicion, but it would further shorten their list of viable targets. They could fake claim private eye, but even that could be outed by having the main veteran tell them to investigate someone they know is a veteran, and seeing if they correctly identify them.
I'll do whatever is necessary (and legal) to win, I just think it's pointless when the game is virtually solved from the beginning. It takes the point out of the game, which is trying to read people and determine how sincere they are. Of course, there will always be an element of puzzle-solving, as there should be, but when it's 100% out of the hands of either team, that's a bit ridiculous.
Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just wanted to voice my concern, and this will be the last post you see me doing it from here on.
It is a very well thought out plan, LTT. Kudos for that.
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Why would you be against this at all? Shady, man. Very shady.
I'm against it because I'm in favor of a fun, fair game.
Think what you will. I'm not mafia.
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Good morning guys. Just finished reading through all of the posts and listened to Scaramanga's idea. Question: How many vets should we assume there are? Chuiu specifically stated that Role counts are hidden this game so I'm not sure if we should just assume there are multiple Vets. The fact that medics can't protect consecutive nights will allow the "mouthpiece" to just get killed off. I think a votecheck into town circle is the best idea instead of blues just PMing the vet their roles. People just have to hope that the PE is responsible and can get the town circle set up.
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Having a bunch of confirmed town is the entire point of the plan. Is it unfair for the mafia? Yeah definitely. But I'm not about to play nice to them. I had to deal with an even harder situation (what with mayor and bodyguards and Ace's masterplan and all that) so mafia have no right to whine.
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Redtooth,
If you have an alternative into how we can have a confirmed cirle based off a private eye, I'm all ears.
Look at Chuiu's past games. I'm willing to bet the game on the fact that there are not 0 or 1 Vetaran. Even if there is only 1 though, we haven't lost anything. We learn the total numbers of each role at the cost of 1 veteran.
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Screw it. I'm a veteran.
Paramedics please protect me. Other veterans, do not use your extra vote today.
I will use my extra vote today to verify I am indeed a veteran.
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On March 01 2009 00:50 Dyno. wrote:
Screw it. I'm a veteran.
Paramedics please protect me. Other veterans, do not use your extra vote today.
I will use my extra vote today to verify I am indeed a veteran.
State now who you are voting for. You have to say it in advance.
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Dyno, who shall you use your extra vote on? We should know this so that nobody else will vote on the same guy.
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If people want to start PMing me your roles now, you can, but it would be an unwise decision since you don't know for sure that I'm a vet yet.
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DO NOT PM HIM YOUR ROLES. He is not confirmed.
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Both votes can be (must be?) on the same person, correct?
If that's the case, I cast my vote (and my extra vote) on blue_arrow.
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On March 01 2009 00:41 Dyno. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 00:32 BWdero wrote:On March 01 2009 00:29 Dyno. wrote:On February 28 2009 22:55 LTT wrote:From there, everyone needs to PM the veteran their roles. I was with you until this. Is it really legal for town members to claim in private to eachother? You'll probably think I'm maf for saying this, but that's incredibly lame and allows for a scenario such as the one you described where it's very difficult for the mafia to win. It is very much legal. It's how town won in game 2. And since I was mafia in game 2 i can tell you that is indeed very hard to win against and thus very beneficial to town if we can pull it off. My point is it's too beneficial. It's beneficial to the point that it's ridiculously imbalanced for town. Yes, mafia could fakeclaim, but not very easily. It would be impossible to fakeclaim as a veteran, since with LTT's plan they would all be verified, so that's already a bunch of guaranteed town. They could try fakeclaiming as a paramedic, but as soon as someone died that they were supposed to protect, it would be suspicious. Of course they could choose not to kill that target, so as not to arouse suspicion, but it would further shorten their list of viable targets. They could fake claim private eye, but even that could be outed by having the main veteran tell them to investigate someone they know is a veteran, and seeing if they correctly identify them. I'll do whatever is necessary (and legal) to win, I just think it's pointless when the game is virtually solved from the beginning. It takes the point out of the game, which is trying to read people and determine how sincere they are. Of course, there will always be an element of puzzle-solving, as there should be, but when it's 100% out of the hands of either team, that's a bit ridiculous. Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just wanted to voice my concern, and this will be the last post you see me doing it from here on. It is a very well thought out plan, LTT. Kudos for that.
It is not as "imbalanced" as you are claiming it to be. Previous games show that a town circle being set up doesn't necessarily equate to a win. You have to remember that Mafia are also talking to each other from the get go and setting up their own plans.
Also, Mafia "fakeclaiming" is a lot more complicated than what you are making it out to be. They don't just send a single PM "claiming" a role. They prepare what they are going to say, send the PM, and take actions to make that PM be more convincing.
On the flip side, townspeople aren't as trusting as you are making them out to be either. Just because someone claims they are a blue, they will take many steps before they actually trust that claim. Of course this could go either way (beneficial because they thwarted a mafia's claim to get in the blue circle, detrimental because they prevented a real blue from getting in).
If you don't
Finally, a request: If you a green, don't claim to be a blue unless you are trying to take a hit for one (an action which is beyond our selfish capabilities). This cuts the crap blues will likely have to face and makes it easier to catch mafias who are "fakeclaiming" by narrowing down the scenarios to either (A) a real blue is actually claiming his role or (B) a red is claiming a blue's role to get in on the circle.
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PM Chuiu that you are using your extra vote on blue_arrow. Veteran extra votes are hidden abilities, so they have to be done via PM.
We now wait for the first Vote Count
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Crap so much happened while I was writing my post. Hold up give me a second and I'll tell see if I can think of a plan.
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Crap realized vet already came out and claimed his role. Give me a second and we'll see what we can do.
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On March 01 2009 00:55 redtooth wrote:
Crap so much happened while I was writing my post. Hold up give me a second and I'll tell see if I can think of a plan.
It doesn't matter much now. The Veteran Leader plan has started.
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OK in this situation I suggest blues really do send their roles to a confirmed vet. Hopefully we end up having more than one vet throughout the game but we'll see how that turns out. You guys can get an irc started or something and start brainstorming. At least that's how they rolled in previous games (mafia also had IRCs rolling to plan posts carefully).
To make the town circle larger (and thereby eliminating candidates for mafia) PE should do vote listchecks early. It's really a win-win situation IMO. Either you snag a mafia on a list (and then we can do behavior analysis to narrow it down if its a large list) or you get a fully clean list who you integrate into your town circle.
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Nobody vote on blue_arrow. We need to make sure only Dyno shows up on that list. As for myself. I'm voting on the only solid clue lead we have.
I cast my vote on inertinept.
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I don't understand why he voted for blue_arrow. I'm sure he's nothing and its possible that he doesn't even realize the game is going on. inertinept is at least more logical.
Eh, I'm just ranting now. I'm sure Dyno. is a vet. No way mafia would come out and risk it.
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EPT
