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On March 19 2008 07:53 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 07:39 ahrara_ wrote:
...Ace will coordinate the real detectives Such cleverly disguised misdirection against me won't work. Don't use such a leading tone; you incite suspicion against yourself.
Chill. I posted what I felt was reasonable. I don't know if you're real or not atm, and I didn't mean anything by that adjective. My numerical assignments were based on my subjective opinion. I only introduced it to make my point more clear. I think if you fuddle the numbers around some, you'd come up with the same conclusion, that the risk of voting for you outweight the benefits. We have 4 detectives, and not two like last game. It sucks to have to lose one, but we can deal with three. I still feel that the pardoner, because he is protected and because he can keep the town in check, is more valuable. With 130 people, he'll likely be able to pardon more than last game too.
Seriously, I think your decision to reveal your role was a bad idea, regardless if you're mafia or townie. You could've become mayor by campaigning hard, adopting Ace's plan, and using your reputation from last game. It would've helped if you'd started earlier. Then, we would've had a detective mayor, and not had to go through this drama.
It comes down to this: We don't know if you're detective or scum or a townie who wants the mayoral position bad. There is absolutely no more reason to believe you're any of these roles than there is to believe that I am any of these roles. This is a simple, sound, and logical fact. On the other hand, the suspicions your actions invoked seriously hurt your chances of winning.
How? This is what I keep asking. We can't coordinate unless the detectives can all trust someone. They can only trust someone if they know he is towny. That means either: we waste 3/8 of the valuable yes/no questions, or the mayor reveals a bodyguard. Ace has said he does not want to reveal a bodyguard immediately, so how will he be able to coordinate the detectives?
He's going to have to reveal a bodyguard then. Sacrificing somebody to make sure the mayor can be trusted is worth it. I'm not actually sure about the specifics... Ace, wanna follow up?
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I don't know what to think of Emp now. If he is that good of a player I don't think he would out himself that easily as a detective. However if it is indeed an idea the mafia cooked up, why put forward such an experienced player for such a dangerous plot? It does seem to work however, since he is getting a lot of votes. So, for now, I think I will vote for Ace, just to make sure he will stay in the lead.
Can't wait to wake up tomorrow and having to read through like 50 pages.
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Is the town really getting anywhere with all of this? While discussion does promote contested claims, which can give us more to work with later, trying to deliberately stir up antagonism will only result in lack of objectivity as more clues become available. Currently, they are essentially worthless.
So, everyone, let's try to keep things civil and relatively calm. Until someone can convince me without falling back on vitriol or unsubstantiated nonsense, I'll be abstaining.
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Germany2896 Posts
On March 19 2008 07:58 Empyrean wrote:
1. Yes. I am acting very selfishly. It still benefits the town to guarantee that I'm a protected position.
That is only proofable using the cookie-axiom, so this statement is pretty useless
On March 19 2008 07:58 Empyrean wrote:
Think about it from a mafia standpoint: If I truly were mafia roleclaiming to be detective, once the election is over and under your plan, the detectives reveal their clues (not publically, of course), it'll be obvious that I wasn't a detective. So why would the mafia risk such a scenario?
Quick edit.
Mafiamembers are expendable in this game. Taking out the major is worth a dead mafia member.
@qrs:
The role question is imo not that valuable compared to the "how many voted for" question. And they are only expended if a mafia-member claims to be detective, which effectively kills this mafia member. So they are not wasted.
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So let us find out who here likes Quentin Tarentino as that might be a clue...
Kill Bill references
Reservior dog references
Pulp Fiction references (Mr. Wolf)
Also, Ghar could be mafia, but I don't think he is....But if he is I would greatly suspect Ace.
I voted for Fusion for Mayor.
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On March 19 2008 07:58 Empyrean wrote:
1. Yes. I am acting very selfishly. It still benefits the town to guarantee that I'm a protected position.
2. I support your plan. I probably should have made that more clear.
Think about it from a mafia standpoint: If I truly were mafia roleclaiming to be detective, once the election is over and under your plan, the detectives reveal their clues (not publically, of course), it'll be obvious that I wasn't a detective. So why would the mafia risk such a scenario?
Quick edit.
Ok I'll think about it from a Mafia standpoint:
1.) If you are Mafia and you don't win Mayor you could always get away with false claiming for a while if the Mayor isn't good enough to break that trend early
2.)If you are Mafia, you are hoping you do win the election and that by the time you really are investigated things are out of whack.
Essentially by the point part 2 comes up, if you were Mayor the Town loses a Mayor, you hope the BGs are in disarray, and any Detective or Jack that says you are Guilty will be labeled as scum or a traitor and won't be killed at night to keep the suspicions on them.
Honestly, the more you post about reasons to be Mayor the more I keep thinking about past games I've played and how people have tried stuff like this to pull one over the eyes of the town. Even if you were caught fast, the damage to the town would be sickening. You'd take up a valuable night spot, and a lot of active, smart players would be dead on the first night.
And as of now, you are not acting intelligent enough to be Mayor or Pardoner. I don't care what anyone says about last game, this game is showing that your selfish nature and by any means necessary attitude is not good for the Town.period.
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Guys vote me for mayor because I rule
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I don't particularly care that Empyrean is selfish. If it's the kind of selfishness that helps the town win, then I think it's fine. It's more a question of how credible he is, and to me, he's completely honest. Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role.
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On March 19 2008 08:12 MasterOfChaos wrote:
@qrs:
The role question is imo not that valuable compared to the "how many voted for" question. And they are only expended if a mafia-member claims to be detective, which effectively kills this mafia member. So they are not wasted.
It's a question of supply and demand. They are valuable because they can only be used twice in a game. The "how many voted for" question can be used every night.
They don't need to be expended at all (except for one, to check the mayor). If a mafia-member claims to be detective, he can be found out by all the detectives asking a "how many voted for" question.
Everyone, this is where Ace differs from me. I think we should preserve our "Is he Mafia" questions and risk outing one bodyguard. Ace thinks we should not out any bodyguards and rely on the detectives to prove the mayor innocent, instead wasting 3/8 of the "is he Mafia" questions and possibly a night (if it takes a night for detectives to get the answer). Read my original post for what I think the mayor should do. Vote for me or post in the thread here if you support that proposal. I won't push this issue any more: I've done my best to convince you all, and if I haven't done so, posting more probably won't help.
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17045 Posts
Well, I only want to be mayor to ensure that we get a good townie role as mayor. I'm essentially running off of nothing except my word. However, assuming all the other candidates are townies, I don't know if they have an other abilities either. I'm sure some of them do and just aren't as brash as I am, for better or for worse. I'm basically trying to assure the town of a detective mayor, and by revealing that I am a detective, pretty much guaranteed we get a detective mayor.
Besides, during the first night, another detectives can verify my role (although it would be very easy for a mafia member to pose a detective while framing me).
It's a leap of faith thing. But since no better "roles" came up for the mayoral election, I decided to reveal mine and ensure a good mayoral candidate.
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17045 Posts
And also: my acting selfishly helps the town since I am a member of the town.
I'll explain everything fully. Just as me some questions.
(and in game now, but feel free to ask me the questions!)
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On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote:
Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role.
None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town.
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Empyrean, your posts are not convincing at all. Sorry, but really like you stated it's an act of blind faith which by itself isn't a bad thing - but claiming that you are a Detective early in the game when it can not be verified hurts the town.
You do realize this don't you?
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Empyrean: you must know that in trying to force the town to vote for you as mayor already discredits both you're word and the role you chose to reveal. ANYONE can come out and say, "Hey im so&so role and i you should vote for me" and it doesn't mean they are the best candidate, if anything they are low on the totem pole because of being so rash about revealing a role, or lying about it. I cannot agree with anyone thinking you would be best as mayor, regardless if you are detective or not. Yes, a detective mayor can be good for the town, but to abuse that role and reveal it in attempt to secure protection is a selfish act and is more hurtful to the town. I urge everyone who has voted for Empyrean to re-think that vote, go through the thread where Empyrean first stated his role(check Falycnns blog for the link) and re-evaluate why it is Empyrean wants to be mayor.
i'd like to note i changed my vote to Ace, as i think he has solid plans and a good head on his shoulders to help organize the town and lead us astray from disaster like the other game.
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17045 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:25 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote:
Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role. None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town.
My problem with your candidacy is that the same thing could apply. You could be mafia as well, and all we have is your word. I'm basically going to be adopting a similar plan, so why not vote for the candidate who actually has a role? (Of course, you may as well.)
Also, I don't agree with the bodyguard plan qrs posted wholly - if the mayor were mafia, he could have a mafia member "reveal" that he was a bodyguard, and then the mafia would know the player's jobs/plan/etc., as well as waste a significant amount of paramedic protection.
That's why I think that we should investigate any person who claims bodyguard first.
But seriously.
If I'm elected, just get other detectives to check my role. The mafia will certainly fake some detectives, but I have ways around that which I can't reveal at the moment because it would compromise the method.
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17045 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:29 Ace wrote:
Empyrean, your posts are not convincing at all. Sorry, but really like you stated it's an act of blind faith which by itself isn't a bad thing - but claiming that you are a Detective early in the game when it can not be verified hurts the town.
You do realize this don't you?
The role can be verified after the election. What difference would it make? I'm 100% a detective, and by issuing the "ultimatum", I'm guaranteeing that we get a townie detective mayor. It's selfish, but also in the best interests of the town.
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My plan does use up the detective's limited skill very fast. But I stand by the purpose it serves. Total confidence in the mayor, trust is needed in this kind of relationship.
Detectives are unlikely to to be accurate with their choices this early in the game, but holding onto it for too long runs the risk of being killed before they can use it.
I say detectives can function effectively without the 2 investigates if they work as a team, because being able to ask Chuiu to tie a name to a clue is almost as good as investigating if you work together intelligently with other detectives, along with vote counts.
The network I'm proposing is more powerful than the detectives limited 2 time skill. Detectives have full confidence in the mayor, and each other. The Mayor stands out in the open and voices their findings so they're safe and hidden, and slowly the network expands as more people are confirmed innocent.
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On March 19 2008 07:54 ahrara_ wrote:
Some more points I want to make.
First, a protected detective is NOT that valueable. Under Ace's plan, it will be made clear who the detectives are. He will be their mouthpiece, and their identities will remain secret. They can only die if they're accidentally killed off.
Second, you can't really save somebody if the Mafia is determined to kill them. They can use several kill points to make sure they take out an important role. It might be viable in the beginning, when you have all 7 medics saving one person because that's the only one they know is worth saving, but it would difficult to keep him alive for long when there are more people (including innocent townies who are likely to be targetted just becaused the contribute a lot) worth saving later in the game.
Finally, clues at this point are useless. I can't emphasize this enough. Let me try again.
CLUES AT THIS POINT ARE USELESS.
All this pointless, unsubstantiated finger pointing is annoying, QUIT IT.
When a lot of them start to add up, and there's behavioral clues to add to it, then it becomes worth talking about. A lot of people were lynched last game on a whim. Let's not do that again. The clues pointing to Ghar aren't very sound at all. I don't buy them for a second, but if a lot of them started to suggest him loosely, then I'll consider it some more. In fact, I would ask that clue analysis be kept to yourself for now, because it makes you a target and it causes unneeded and unwarranted suspicions amongst townies. Although you should by all means continue analyzing, just post them ONLY when you have a strong case against someone. This and this clue might point to this person is pure shit. The town can only be hurt by this pointless finger pointing.
Oh man, that's a terrible pun. ;(
It is useless to blatantly point fingers at people and making accusations, but i don't think it is hurtful to provoke discussion and reference points for later to make connections to people via the clues we have at hand. I know for me, i am not saying anyone is mafia, im analyzing the few clues we have as a place to start at for town discussion and a reference point for later posts and clues.
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On March 19 2008 08:30 Empyrean wrote:
Also, I don't agree with the bodyguard plan qrs posted wholly - if the mayor were mafia, he could have a mafia member "reveal" that he was a bodyguard, and then the mafia would know the player's jobs/plan/etc., as well as waste a significant amount of paramedic protection.
That's why I think that we should investigate any person who claims bodyguard first.
That part of it was covered by Ace's original post: The mayor PMs all of the bodyguards the names of all the bodyguards and announces that he has done so. If a real bodyguard hasn't gotten this PM he announces, and we know that something is wrong. If no one says anything, that means that all the real bodyguards have gotten PMs, and the mayor cannot sneak a Mafia member into the list. (This assumes that we will know the total number of bodyguards, which we should.)
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On March 19 2008 08:25 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote:
Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role. None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town.
It's a little bit more than his word. Based on his response to speculations about his role, I cannot see him being a mafioso.
However, I'm beginning to see what you're arguing by saying it was selfish. By saying he's a detective, he's forced the town to take a risk, no matter what we do. If we don't him in as mayor, and he was a detective, the we lose a valuable role. If he is in the mafia and we DO vote him in as mayor, then...well, that's not desirable to say the least.
Either way (voting for him, or not voting for him), you're taking a risk, which is something someone may have wanted to avoid in the mayoral elections. I can see that as a valid point to abstain from voting, but to me, the risk of Empyrean being mafia is not too high.
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EPT
