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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On June 13 2024 10:45 AlphaZero wrote: this is irrelevantanyone calling me mafia needs to reconcile this fact btw. no one is asking whether you are skilled to bus undected or not the first question that should be asked is whether there is value to outright bussing; or to push-pull constantly. like you, i will leave that with the group to decide for themselves  | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On June 13 2024 10:57 AlphaZero wrote: this is so misleading. our approaches to the game, the cycle and the lynch are dramatically different.Thats fine, so why does scott town read mocsta and scum read me? Think about why that would be the case for a townie? scott has to furnish his interpretations himself however to posit that a town~scott must read you/me the same is a ridiculous assertion | ||
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Mocsta
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is this meant to be a setup on how dumb dmb is? its got to be vivax taking the piss/mickey/glory | ||
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Mocsta
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thats hillarious ##vote: alphazero | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 11:11 scott31337 wrote: I can talk to youSo Mocsta If you want to wait until other townies have more intel/info for today or even until D4 I'm fair with But are you hard claiming? That's the part I was speaking we were going to have a convo about i mean. i dont see how a claim changes anything? | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 11:22 scott31337 wrote: wait until d4 I sayBecause if you haven't been CC (counterclaimed) you are probably confirmed town and things make more sense But like i said it can wait until D4 I'm glad koshi is here though Replace idea for colours makes sense Although I'm working off phone. Maybe that has it Bloody hard I will have a look into your n2 post now | ||
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Mocsta
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Push pull as thread sentiment evolved is labeled as inaccurate representation. Yet the case is your posts with colours for emphasis - nothing more Dodge and reframe Accuses me of being teamed with Scott for voting with a former scum read even though we have only aligned when I have town read Scott Worse this point reflects to alphazero as a hypocrite who voted with his "actual" scum read sandroba | ||
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Mocsta
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I voted with sandroba? Lol.. the end of day count clearly shows you are talking about yourself along with vivax | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 12:59 AlphaZero wrote: nothing I have done is unchanged from my vote count with colourswhen did you town read scott, and what happened for this town read to develop? The rest is just bluster I have constantly talked of Scott beboping around being a town indicator for me And his shift over the past 24hrs to not bebop makes absolute sense as town because more information means the game.feels closer to being solved | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 13:03 AlphaZero wrote: your scum reads have barely changed eitherHe hasn't done that. His top scum read hasn;t changed all game really. What are you saying, lol | ||
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Mocsta
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Sure EoD2 vote count.. colours are purely to stand out in response On June 12 2024 08:57 Grackaroni wrote: Day Two sandroba (7); raynpelikoneet, Koshi, Scott31337, Oatsmaster, die_meatbaby, trfel, Alakaslam die_meatbaby (3): raynpelikoneet(1): Mocsta, Vivax (0): Koshi (0): scott31337 (0): Sandroba and AlphaZero voted together In AlphaZero world, Scott, DMB and Sandroba are F-Tier scum reads = guranteed scum I get there is a difficult of an F-tier on each wagon; yet alphazero never talks about this, such that its not even a consideration. and me identifying a blatant lie is in response to this: https://tl.net/forum/mafia/625928-sweet-summer-mafia?page=183#3644 On June 13 2024 12:51 AlphaZero wrote: 2.) he is not considering [red]mocsta[red] as mafia who also did not vote for sandro, and in fact was the most vocal opponent of the lynch and is in fact voting with him. if alphazero seeks to distort his post to at a point of time in d2, i shared the same vote destination as sandroba. this is true. i voted DMB and it had nothing to do with sandroba - ignored by alphazero Sandroba voted Rayn with me, as did AlphaZero & trfel - again ignored by AlphaZero | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 13:16 Trfel wrote: contextually yes;thats probably a good distillation.Mocsta, why is die_meatbaby town again? Your posts seem to indicate that she is town because AlphaZero is mafia? Is this a "the two wagons won't ever both be mafia" thing? firstly my world was flipped upside down, and im viewing oats read of the game as legit (who was pro DMB) then i read sandroba filter and am viewing the interactions with vivax as scummy. In that world, who is the partner.. could DMB/VIvax be a couple scum team? I just havent seen the game like that, and world upside down or not, being a married person myself i just dont see it regardless. so im thinking 1 of dmb or viivax. whatever az says of sandroba, my internnlisation was that he was pro-sandroba like me. so when i filtered sandroba to get a feel if anything indrect linked to DMB, i noticed the push-pull with az i was like this is weird because i dont recall.. but ctrl+f reveals all i then went through alphazero filter and was like whoah, this has been going on for way too long. extremely scummy. just the right amoutn of tension to pick a side.. only mafia does this when the noose is not on the neck. so if you ask me to logic why DMB is a town read. i would say. DMB is a leaning town read by PoE & i cant see DMB/Vivax as a scum team. thats the best i can give you | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 13:20 AlphaZero wrote: could be, i have guilty of a fewmy read on sandro evolved since the tier post (he started posting again) and my reasons for not wanting to lynch him yesterday are in my filter, which apparently you have read. The second part you have in red is a comprehension fail, I am saying scott is voting with you. i really dont see the fail though and i have re-read multiple times "scott (he) is not considering mocsta as mafia who also did not vote for sandro, and in fact was the most vocal opponent of the lynch and is in fact voting with him. the 3 ident lines all relate to "mocsta as mafia" | ||
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Mocsta
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as i have written a response.. i've gone.. damn. thats stupid from me and very fair points from you. what can i say. anti-town award for me? On June 13 2024 13:28 Trfel wrote: Mostly correct. Paraphrased its about the byproduct of AlphaZero posts/votes create voting optionality, and applies whether voting a town or scum flip. Mocsta, can I break this down with you? If there is something I am misunderstanding, please point it out. It is very possible that I am missing something. You think AlphaZero is mafia for how he posts about sandroba but doesn't end up voting for him, right? Basing this off of post #3410. Yes, town change reads and votes (I'm proof), and typically new information is the driver (or being stupid for me). Whereas, pursuing optionality, in particular without applying new information, is mafia mindset. The push-pull was about demonstrating through AlphaZeros quote history, the optionality kept open on Sandroba over 72 hours and 120+ posts that presented during that time; and bear in mind, this is for an F-Tier hard scum read so i attribute the optionality as opportunistic and therefore scummy. Why would AlphaZero, as mafia, share so many suspicions about his mafia partner sandroba and then not bus him when it becomes obvious sandroba is being lynched and sandroba gives up? (I mean, good mafia play is to bus him before it becomes hyper obvious, but at the very least he should do it at that point) It looks to me like your argument is that AlphaZero is mafia because he set himself up to bus sandroba but then just decided not to. I could buy this if there was any hope of keeping sandroba alive, but there clearly wasn't? We could be viewing two sides of the same coin? For example, in poker, there is the mathematically optimal way to play a hand; yet, that doesn't gurantee you win the pot. Somewhere along the lines, other human factors come into play. Some players, like yourself & Rayn veer towards the analytical approach to the game; others like town!sandroba veer towards the human intuition side, and then occasionally you get muppets like me that create lots of noise. BTW, my argument is that AlphaZero used push-pull to save Sandroba and maintain distance.. I read all his pushes as soft and I personally view AlphaZero push-pull defense of Sandroba as preventing him from bussing if that was a desired outcome - i.e. to jump in the last 5 hours would be sus.. and perhaps only rayn can resolve this via discussions from mason log Like, why does this make AlphaZero mafia when what you (Mocsta) did, defending sandroba and looking for alternative wagons, presumably comes from town? How is what AlphaZero did any scummier or more mafia motivated than what you did? yep, after the fact, my play is anti-town.I reduce this to: 1. not trusting town, that they would come together and stick. like, what game locks in wagons 5 hrs before lynch. 2. being overly concerned about last minute majority flips i mean, if you examine the whats, perhaps there is an argument of similarity much like what you have poited. I know my why, i shared it. you can choose to believe it or not. It has become anti-town, and thats not the same as mafia up-side either. The elements I have identified consistently across 72hrs with AZ, for me, if i implemented that optionlaity opportunisticly, the why is mafia upsides each and every time. | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 13:44 Trfel wrote: uhh this was funny.. logistically valid, yet practicably useless Okay, from your perspective, AlphaZero is mafia and his not voting on a strong scumread is a sign that he is mafia. Why are you mad about your strong scumread, AlphaZero, doing something that shows that he is mafia? Shouldn't this make you happy and excited? im still laughing | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 13:57 AlphaZero wrote: putting the game asideSo your reads are a weapon for you to wield? Rather than a reflection of your thoughts about alignments. Was obvious to me from day one, but I’m glad you are showing your true colours here. im truly impressed with your ability to hurl insults with just the right level of candour and joviality to get away with it each and every time. my vision of you is like the bully in adam sandler movies that get their moment eventually. the point and compliment being that it has to come from a movie to get that moment. | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 14:55 AlphaZero wrote: i suspect scott is playing up the drinking thing to wriggle out of that mess, he only mentions it after he fucks up. hmmm. it is realy a weird build up. i hope hes ok whereever he is | ||
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Mocsta
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possibly town read by all which is great and could be as simple as that i really would have expected koshi, trfel maybe rayn to be shot | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 15:18 Trfel wrote: i'm going to give you benefit of the doubt and unvoteYes, it's possible that AlphaZero is mafia and realized too late that he should bus sandroba and then decided it would be too suspicious to switch and just ended up not bussing him. I think AlphaZero is clearly a better player than this, but I can't entirely rule out the possibility. Even if you think "well Trfel, someone's gonna say that same argument you just said about why mafia would bus and how AlphaZero not joining the wagon doesn't make him mafia," you're not wrong, but this doesn't give him a reason to do this as mafia. AlphaZero not switching to sandroba didn't change the fact that sandroba was going to get lynched. In contrast, if AlphaZero switches to sandroba, he avoids all the knee-jerk "you didn't vote for mafia so you are mafia" scumreads. That's generally well worth it. Sure, AlphaZero could have realized he should bus too late, and maybe thought it would look too suspicious to switch votes late and decided to deal with the knee-jerk repercussions, but.... why? The point though is, AlphaZero as mafia doesn't gain anything by any of this. He didn't really attempt to defend his scumbuddy sandroba, and he didn't get any town credit for bussing. I don't think any of this is alignment indicative at all. If you want to scumread AlphaZero for being wishy-washy on flipped mafia sandroba, this makes more sense to me. I don't think it's super strong or anything, but I think it's at least a reasonable argument that you can make. I don't think that you can conclude anything from AlphaZero not ending up on sandroba, however, because AlphaZero and sandroba (and presumably also mafia #3) didn't try to defend sandroba. I'm not trying to bash you for being wrong, my point is, I think it's distinctly possible (in fact, I think it's extremely likely) that AlphaZero is simply town and was wrong day 2. I don't think the argument for scumreading AlphaZero due to not voting for sandroba holds any water at all. I don't think the argument for scumreading AlphaZero for going back and forth on sandroba is very strong, though it's at least got a little merit. With those things being unclear, I think AlphaZero's day 1 was a very strong indication that he is town. So that's how I am reading him. Sure, he did a bunch of stuff that's not alignment indicative, but that's not going to change my townread because it's not alignment indicative. i have considered a possibility that, in the same way, on d1, AZ couldnt write i was mafia, instead, accused of pushing mafia agenda. perhaps subconsciously he was hoping sandroba would be town (like i was) and MAYBE... that could be an internal resistance creating push-pull my plan for today is read the sandroba cases, figure out whose i liked and understand the most and i will sheep them queation.. in the same way that you believe scum!az should have bussed scum!sandro. why would scum!sandro attempt to bus DMB? how does this pairing work? | ||
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Mocsta
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On June 13 2024 15:40 Trfel wrote: yeah noted, and im dropping it for now or i risk being tunneled this cycle.. i thought during n2 today would be easy, but we are disjoined as d2. i never to approach with open mind.I mean if you're seeing something I'm not seeing, by all means please explain. I could also just be wrong about my townread on AlphaZero. I'm merely saying that I don't think the day 2 stuff with sandroba is a very compelling reason for AlphaZero being mafia. Why would you care about who had the most convincing case on sandroba being mafia? In a world where sandroba is being bussed, which I find incredibly likely, it's to mafia's advantage to make a convincing case as they bus, no? In fact, they know they're making a case on mafia, so if anything that gives them a slight advantage compared to town? If anything, you should sheep whoever contributed the most to getting sandroba lynched. That'd be more like, who voted for sandroba early and convinced others to join, or who was the tipping point, or something like that. Personally I think you'd be much, much, much better off playing for yourself, and that would be much more aligned with a town mindset and win condition, but I suppose it's your call. As for sandroba and die_meatbaby: sandroba voted for die_meatbaby at a point when only raynpelikoneet was voting for sandroba. At the point when sandroba did so, it's pretty obvious that the wagon on Vivax isn't going to stay around, which is where all the votes are, so there's a bunch of votes that are going to need to go somewhere. Assuming sandroba and die_meatbaby are mafia together, die_meatbaby isn't in a great spot, since not that many people townread her and I am voting for her. Sandroba also left himself in a spot where he could switch votes to raynpelikoneet or Koshi, which for a while seemed like possible wagons (raynpelikoneet moreso than Koshi in the end). I think it's maybe a slight indication that they aren't mafia together? But I don't think it is anywhere near ruling it out, I think a non-associative read on die_meatbaby has much more weight. The reason i said best sandroba case *TO ME* is because i know they are speaking *my* language. Like, i get you are a complex thinker, and typing processed throughts which i appreciate, but boy do i have to concentrate when reading your stuff. honestly. i hope the best sandroba case is not yours sorry, had to say it you do raise an excellent point it could be a mafia writing on mafia to justify, which feeds into why you examined scotts case. as for who contributed to sandroba being voted off.. im not sure.. the whole thing seems like a blur and i never understood for example why dmb jumped onto sandroba. i will agree with you that non-associative read on DMB is better . ok. heading out. park fresh air. this game off the mind. will be nice i will deep dive DMB when i get back. cos everything i recall is emotional plea.. i need to know why she voted sandroba and what was happening in the build up to her vote.. i mean. my mind just lazily goes she jumped on the coutner wagon | ||
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