Host: KelsierSC; Co-host: Vivax Questions may be sent to either of us. Night actions should be sent to all hosts!
Introduction:
Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread may grow large quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play.
Rules:
Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): [*] Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post; but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. [*] Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. [*] Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. [*] Comparing role PM times to determine roles. [*] Posting screenshots of your inbox. [*] Posting any PM you receive from a host. [*] Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. [*] Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. [*] Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. [*] Sharing accounts with other players. Only you may post on your account. [*] Posting the link to any QT's you have.
Posting:
Host Color: The color blue is reserved for the hosts of the game to make our posts easy to notice. Please do not use it.
Questions: The color green is reserved for questions by players for the hosts during pre-game.
Once the game begins, please PM the hosts with any questions.
Smurfs: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. "Editing" includes indirect editing like linking an image, then editing the image. Editing your profile or signature are allowed, but if you edit them for any game-related reasons (ie, breadcrumbing, sending messages, etc) this will be considered out-of-thread posting and will be punished.
Inappropriate posts and use of the report post link: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, or Blazinghand before involving the TL moderation staff or using the report post link. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
Out of thread communication:
It is common for players whose roles permit out of thread communication (e.g. mafia, masons) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Other players may not attempt to infiltrate such communication channels. Players who have not explicitly been given permission to communicate outside the thread are not allowed to do so.
Voting rules:
Voting is done in a separate voting thread that will be posted at the start of the game. Do not PM your vote to the hosts, it will not be counted.
Please vote in the following format: ##Vote KelsierSC. Votes must be in bold, and votes not written in the correct fashion may not be counted.
No conditional voting.
You may vote only for other living players in the thread. You may not vote for yourself.
This game uses plurality voting, so whoever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. There is no minimum number of votes required to lynch someone. If there is a tie for most votes, whoever most recently had more votes than the other is the person who is up for the lynch.
The person who is up for the lynch is whoever has the most votes. Bringing another player up to that number of votes doesn't put him up for the lynch; s/he has to have the most votes.
Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Signups:
Signups will remain open for 7 days and the game will be balanced around the total number of players.
Game begins Thursday, Oct 18 10:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) which is in
Signup for the game by posting /in in the thread
You are responsible for being aware when the game begins. If you learn you cannot play then please let me know ASAP.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, post in the Ban List.
Modkills will be used at the host's discretion.
Replacements: No Replacements will be allowed
If you are unable to continue playing for a legitimate reason PM the host and no post game action will be taken.
Clues: The role PMs and day/night posts are purely flavor text. There are no clues.
PMs: PMs and out of thread communication are not allowed in this game, unless your role explicitly allows them.
Activity: You are expected to keep up with the thread and participate in discussion daily. If for some reason you anticipate that you will not be available for a period longer than 24 hours, please notify a host ahead of time.
Activity requirement is 3 posts per cycle and voting each cycle. 1st failure = warning 2nd failure = modkill. These do stack so if D1 you don't post or vote then you will be modkilled.
Being modkilled will result in postgame action.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 48 hour day/24 hour night cycle. Upon reaching the deadline, the game will be put on hold until the next day or night post is posted. Any votes or night actions timestamped up to and including XX:59 will count; those at or after XX:00 will not.
Once the deadline has been reached, you must not post in the thread until the game is resumed by the next daypost or nightpost. Do not wait until the very last moment to try to post!
The deadline for each cycle will be 22:00 GMT (+00:00).
Credits: Thanks to cohosts, coaches and players. Thanks to every active member of the TL mafia community.
This game will be balanced based on sign up numbers.
The town's win condition:
The town wins when all mafia are eliminated.
The mafia's win condition:
The mafia wins if the number of mafia players alive is equal or greater to the number of town players alive and town night actions cannot reverse this.
When a player dies in the game, the player's alignment (that is, which team the player wins with), and role will be revealed. This reveal is guaranteed to be accurate.
This game uses a semi-open setup. The possible roles are listed below, but the exact number will remain hidden. All roles are not guaranteed to be present.
Role Titles may or may not be Cowboy Bebop Themed, Role abilities will be as listed below
Role descriptions:
Vanilla Townie You have no special abilities, but your voice and your vote are just as important as anyone else's. You win with the town.
Unaware Miller You appear as Vanilla Townie to yourself , however you will return a "Mafia aligned" result on Cop checks. You win with the town.
Town Cop / Detective Every night, you may choose a player to investigate. You will visit the player and receive "Town-aligned" or "Mafia-aligned" as a result. Your results are guaranteed to be accurate unless you check the Unaware Miller. You win with the town.
Town Doctor Every night, you may choose a player other than yourself to protect. You will visit the player, and if the mafia attempt to kill a player you are protecting on the same night, the kill will fail. Neither you nor the target will be notified if you prevent a kill. You win with the town.
Town Vigilante Once per game, at night, you may select a player to kill. That player is shot overnight and dies at the start of the next day. If your target was also shot by mafia, or was protected by a doctor or veteran status, your bullet is lost. If you were roleblocked, you don't use your bullet and can try again the next night. You win with the town.
Town Veteran You have a bulletproof vest that can absorb one bullet. This means you need to be shot twice in order to die: once to destroy the vest, once to kill you. If you are roleblocked, however, your bulletproof vest doesn't work that night. You win with the town.
Mafia Roleblocker Every night, you may choose a player to roleblock, which will prevent them from performing actions and visits that night. The roleblocked player will not be notified. Every night, the mafia team must choose a player to kill. You may communicate with other members of your mafia team outside of the game thread at any time. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Framer Every night, you may choose a player to frame, which will make them appear as "Mafia Aligned" on Cop Checks. The framed player will not be notified. Every night, the mafia team must choose a player to kill. You may communicate with other members of your mafia team outside of the game thread at any time. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Goon Every night, the mafia team must choose a player to kill. You may communicate with other members of your mafia team outside of the game thread at any time. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Godfather You return "town" to cop checks, as though you were a vanilla townie. Every night, the mafia team must choose a player to kill. You may communicate with other members of your mafia team outside of the game thread at any time. You win with the mafia.
Notifications:
Roleblocks are not notified Veteran saves are not notified. Doctor saves are not notified.
Please read these rules and if I missed anything important let me know. Otherwise, it's mafia as usual.
Do you mean in terms of flavor? Because if you mean the roles themselves than the OP is incorrect as it states that all possible roles are listed due to this being a semi-open set up. None of the listed roles are themed.
In the past we never considered a theme in flavor to be a themed game and I guess I’m just not sure if I’m misunderstanding or if the definitions have shifted
On October 12 2018 00:16 Sergiovan wrote: Do you mean in terms of flavor? Because if you mean the roles themselves than the OP is incorrect as it states that all possible roles are listed due to this being a semi-open set up. None of the listed roles are themed.
You should advertise the game in the Anime discussion thread. Back when we hosted other flavor themed games I think we picked up a few random dudes who knew nothing about mafia that way XD
You should advertise the game in the Anime discussion thread. Back when we hosted other flavor themed games I think we picked up a few random dudes who knew nothing about mafia that way XD
df: wants to lynch byj for 0 reasons, doesn't want to lynch me when I'm easy lynch but content is really 0
sentinel: awkward entry and then follow up into afking but his follow up said there's your scum team and out of the 2 people he quoted he picked the less scum read-y of the two who didn't even vote him so even if it was a revenge this it's a bs pick, probably mafia
ruxxar: super 1 liners that don't say anything
byj: wants to lynch me for policy I guess but then bandwagons me for ???
koshi: can't believe he still tries to spite lynch me in 2018 the year of PC play full of micro aggressions
ranked by order of most mafia is hmmmmm
byj sentinel df ruxxar koshi prplhz
could be tempted to remove sentinel if he didn't pick ruxxar
I think if byj wanted to vote me to save himself he would literally say he doesn't know what's going on and is doing that. Instead he turns it into some sarcastic play on Koshi's twat headedness.
I mean it's not like I can change my vote, hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking. Though hard for me to change my vote if it means losing my life
Either way, BYJ could have easily changed his vote at any point to anyone in the thread who he thought could have less content to me, to anyone whatsoever who hasn't posted or he could at least allude to ANY scum read he had. Instead:
On October 21 2018 04:13 byj wrote: I mean it's not like I can change my vote, hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking. Though hard for me to change my vote if it means losing my life
He just used it as an excuse to say nothing, didn't converse with me and gave a further excuse to keep voting me.
Sentinel on the other hand, has received no such pressure from me, sees BYJ up for lynch and rather than post reasons or anything whatsoever he tries to join the wagon on me with poor humour, mimicing his entry into the thread. His initial post into the game read very forced, as well as his scum read on Ruxxar over prplhz (unexplained still/even if joke doesn't make much sense unless overthinking the post when he's making it).
On October 21 2018 03:53 Holyflare wrote: I think if byj wanted to vote me to save himself he would literally say he doesn't know what's going on and is doing that. Instead he turns it into some sarcastic play on Koshi's twat headedness.
On October 21 2018 04:13 byj wrote: I mean it's not like I can change my vote, hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking. Though hard for me to change my vote if it means losing my life
Or in hindsight, the fact that HF has claimed nothing means he has to be VT or Scum. As opposed to last minute switching were we could hit town power roles, so better to stay I guess
I'm just going to ignore my gut that something is wrong with byj and say he's town based off of wanting a vote switch and vote whoever else that is possible.
On October 21 2018 04:13 byj wrote: hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking
And since you're the only one talking, and I have no idea who scum is, the best thing I can do is keep my vote on you to keep you talking.
This is also absolute madness that nobody is talking and you'd rather vote the person that IS talking over literally everybody else when you yourself say because nobody is talking it's hard to know who to vote.
I don't accept circular references. Or smug assertions.
I actually agree with this:
On October 21 2018 04:13 byj wrote: hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking
And since you're the only one talking, and I have no idea who scum is, the best thing I can do is keep my vote on you to keep you talking.
This is also absolute madness that nobody is talking and you'd rather vote the person that IS talking over literally everybody else when you yourself say because nobody is talking it's hard to know who to vote.
You only started talking after you were set to be lynched
I don't accept circular references. Or smug assertions.
I actually agree with this:
On October 21 2018 04:13 byj wrote: hard to say anything before the first flip, especially with nobody talking
And since you're the only one talking, and I have no idea who scum is, the best thing I can do is keep my vote on you to keep you talking.
This is also absolute madness that nobody is talking and you'd rather vote the person that IS talking over literally everybody else when you yourself say because nobody is talking it's hard to know who to vote.
You only started talking after you were set to be lynched
and yet your vote is still on me
and also that's not true because I've technically made the only post in the game that's worth anything before I started talking again
can you see any case on anyone in this game? have you even given a reason for voting me?
Ive been at work for the past six hours. Activity levels have been pretty trash but HF shouldn't have been lynched. Kinda really bad. PAlmar modkill is justified but so trash.
Idek what to make of the votes. So spread. Will be around much later tonight if anyone feels like playing lol
Just woke up way too early, anybody here? I guess Scum held their shot tonight, note how we don't get an extra day from it, just makes the lynch harder.
On October 22 2018 09:53 byj wrote: Just woke up way too early, anybody here? I guess Scum held their shot tonight, note how we don't get an extra day from it, just makes the lynch harder.
On October 22 2018 10:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Disagree. We have 4 town votes instead of 3.
So if misslynch today and they get a kill it's 2-2 and over. Only thing it does is prevent a fake claim at the threat of there potentially being a vigilante/veteran. But now we have to work with a bigger pool of players =\
On October 22 2018 10:55 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Disagree. We have 4 town votes instead of 3.
So if misslynch today and they get a kill it's 2-2 and over. Only thing it does is prevent a fake claim at the threat of there potentially being a vigilante/veteran. But now we have to work with a bigger pool of players =\
Because 67% of the playerbase will actually lynch scum instead of 60. There is a much easier lynching margin with 4 people rather than 3.
On October 22 2018 05:57 ruXxar wrote: im actually very suspicious of oatsmaster too. trying to scoot by on a witty 1 liner. not interested in engaging in the thread.
On October 22 2018 09:53 byj wrote: Just woke up way too early, anybody here? I guess Scum held their shot tonight, note how we don't get an extra day from it, just makes the lynch harder.
On October 22 2018 05:57 ruXxar wrote: im actually very suspicious of oatsmaster too. trying to scoot by on a witty 1 liner. not interested in engaging in the thread.
I'm vet so I was probably shot. I doubt we have more saving roles.
6 town, 1 vet 2 scum, 1 gf or something
Sounds like a reasonable setup?
I in 2-3 hours I'll be travelling for 24 hours and I will only have interwebs intermittently. I think that we should just kill [UoN]Sentinel because shooting me points at him and he was already scummy.
On October 22 2018 21:50 prplhz wrote: Because I voted him? This game is too inactive for shennanie or WIFOM and all this, scum shoot to kill someone who will vote them.
Not trying to defend him, but I disagree with your reasoning. So if DF had been shot, I'd have been Scum? You think they went after you because you voted for them, instead of you seeming townie, and then hoping for a lynch onto me (or UoN if he is townie)? Also I just got confirmation, apparently it's in the OP, Mafia cannot hold their shot. This makes you confirmed townie for me ( only other possibility would be having a Roleblocker and blocking themselves, which sounds way too unlikely to me, since then I'd expect something like a town cop).
No, but you'd obviously be under suspicion. I mean, like you say, no one has to be scum, it just happens to be that [UoN]Sentinel looks scummy since his first post and then the guy who tries to lynch him gets shot and here we are.
Your argument is essentially "but WIFOM", and I totally get it, but it's unlikely, especially in a small game (and LYLO), where every single vote and opinion weighs a lot more. Scum would rather kill someone voting for them than kill someone voting for a townie.
ruXxar and me are top townies and we want to lynch [UoN]Sentinel, a single bad town vote can lose us the game. I like that you're talking and thinking about the lynch, but keep all this in mind.
On October 22 2018 22:14 prplhz wrote: No, but you'd obviously be under suspicion. I mean, like you say, no one has to be scum, it just happens to be that [UoN]Sentinel looks scummy since his first post and then the guy who tries to lynch him gets shot and here we are.
Your argument is essentially "but WIFOM", and I totally get it, but it's unlikely, especially in a small game (and LYLO), where every single vote and opinion weighs a lot more. Scum would rather kill someone voting for them than kill someone voting for a townie.
ruXxar and me are top townies and we want to lynch [UoN]Sentinel, a single bad town vote can lose us the game. I like that you're talking and thinking about the lynch, but keep all this in mind.
Agreed which is why Sentinel is probably just scum who got unlucky with the role distribution
On October 23 2018 00:19 darthfoley wrote: It doesn't help that you are lumping Sentinel in with me but then immediately targeting me for flimsy reasoning. Protecting your broski?
On October 23 2018 00:19 darthfoley wrote: It doesn't help that you are lumping Sentinel in with me but then immediately targeting me for flimsy reasoning. Protecting your broski?
Ok I don't think the wagon's going to get any bigger without me actually throwing the game so here goes
As of right now Koshi is still absent and has been since Day 1. What he says when he gets back will probably affect a lot of what I have to say. For that matter, the only time I can tell town Koshi and scum Koshi apart is when he spams up the thread because it's obvious when he tries to find mafia and when he doesn't. Moving on.
byj is an interesting case because HF formed the bulk of the vote on him. That said, aside from hopping on the HF wagon his posts seem to indicate more letting others start the discussion and then hopping in with his own contribution. Once prplhz starts engaging him his posts get a lot more expository and contributing to finding scum. Or people who look like scum. But for now he looks green to me.
As far as I know prplhz has never pulled off something on the level of being town and claiming a different town role for some sort of advantage to town. Tell me if I'm wrong. Which means we're in one of two universes. Either prplhz is actually vet and he did get shot (or there's a very lucky doctor in the game, but that doesn't affect this case) or he's scum and they shot someone else who was saved by doctor (because no vet counterclaim).
So which universe is more likely?
On October 22 2018 21:50 prplhz wrote: Because I voted him? This game is too inactive for shennanie or WIFOM and all this, scum shoot to kill someone who will vote them.
I would disagree with this half of the sentence. Scum shooting someone who will vote for them becomes more obvious, not less, whenever there isn't any activity in the thread. It becomes blatantly obvious because it's at most 1 or 2 pages apart. Especially in the case where you are prplhz and you spend the entire day with your vote on me and even in the midst of Holyflare vs byj voting you not only don't change your vote but repeat in the thread that you think I am more scum than Holyflare (or byj).
Which is a pretty towny course of action.
Now of course if prplhz is scum he can tunnel the scummiest looking towny all day (yours truly - by design). But that would mean byj is town. Any one additional vote on him would set him to be lynched. And nobody aside from HF and darthfoley even hedged on byj being scum beforehand. Again, it's a small game with 9 pages and counting. If you want to save your buddy you'd have to come out of the woodwork ASAP (unless scumteam is darthfoley/byj - but then prplhz is not scum).
The scum case is definitely more WIFOMy and convoluted than the town case. Combine that with being one of the few players trying to earnestly make logical sense (incorrectly - I'm town) of the first day/night, which in this game is the closest thing to actual substance.
On the other hand:
ruXxar has said nothing of substance this entire game. What separates him from Palmar and Koshi is that he's been posting throughout. In fact he calls me scum yet doesn't vote for me until 1) prplhz does, and 2) prplhz claims vet without counterclaim, making him the greenest living player. Whether or not prplhz is actually green, we're perceiving him to be green right now. And riding on the coattails of that without taking any sort of risk is scummy behavior. Especially since green prplhz vouching for ruXxar makes him seem greener by association in the event that I get lynched.
If you're set on believing that I'm scum, keep in mind that he didn't commit his vote until there was no other possible candidate - HF is dead and byj is participating more - for him to lynch. As if he wanted me to attempt to dig myself out of my hole first while distancing from me, and then once he himself was safe and I was a lost cause, he put his vote on me.
Then he can do this:
On October 22 2018 17:29 ruXxar wrote: Btw koshi no longer super detective. Pls kill.
And push for inactive/safe lynches assuming this game goes into D3.
Darthfoley is the second scum for pretty much the same reasons although he's been saying more (still piggybacking on me w/o original ideas which I don't like). But I'm less sure of this read than I am of the previous one.
Because 67% of the playerbase will actually lynch scum instead of 60. There is a much easier lynching margin with 4 people rather than 3.
Two things that outweigh that IMO:
1) The possibility of a doctor (if I was host and had a 9 player setup reduced to 8, I'd kick town an extra blue role to compensate, but that's just me) 2) Being able to lynch as 3-3 or 3-2 if fucking Koshi doesn't come back to the game
On October 23 2018 00:19 darthfoley wrote: It doesn't help that you are lumping Sentinel in with me but then immediately targeting me for flimsy reasoning. Protecting your broski?
Care to tell us your reasoning?
My reasoning about what?
Obviously for
On October 22 2018 01:42 darthfoley wrote: byj & sentinel scum team gg? Maybe it's that simple lol
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it.
BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
On October 23 2018 10:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it.
Though wouldn't any other person have fit that purpose?
I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
How did HF's flip help you with a read onto DF/raX?
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
On October 23 2018 10:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it.
Though wouldn't any other person have fit that purpose?
I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
How did HF's flip help you with a read onto DF/raX?
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
Nah
Correct. But I believe HF gave us the most info. In hindsight lynching you could've also been optimal since HF could exonerate himself as suspect number one, and then we could do the same analysis. Others didn't say enough to really reveal much if they got lynched and flip town IMO.
But HF got lynched and that simplified the vote to the question if you are scum or not. If you are, then mafia had skin in the game. If not, then they could relax. Working backwards from there and my assumption is that DF is red and you are green. That ruX is scum is evident from his filter.
On October 23 2018 00:19 darthfoley wrote: It doesn't help that you are lumping Sentinel in with me but then immediately targeting me for flimsy reasoning. Protecting your broski?
On October 22 2018 01:42 darthfoley wrote: byj & sentinel scum team gg? Maybe it's that simple lol
I mean, you both voted on confirmed town people, and now you're calling him scummy but kind of backhandedly while trying to lynch me. Feels like you're trying to start another wagon on me, while simultaneously trying to distance yourself if Sentinel gets lynched. If you lynch me, gg mafia wins. If Sentinel gets lynched, you can at least say "aw shucks, I knew it!!"
Makes good sense considering you would win with one mislynch.
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
Why do you hate to say this? If he's less scummy, that should be a good thing right? This wording sticks out to me as stilted and awkward
Doing work all day but I'll be able to keep an eye on the thread from 5 hours before to 20 minutes after the deadline (1-6:20 eastern)
In the meantime, DF, could you tell me
1. Do you have any thoughts on my big post on the last page? 2. Who's your current scum team? 3. Of the other 3 people, why do you think they are more town than your 2 scum picks?
byj you as well although you've answered #1, and you said you agree DF is scum and prplhz is town. Of me, Koshi and ruXxar who do you think is the second scum and why?
On October 23 2018 23:12 darthfoley wrote: I mean, you both voted on confirmed town people
Sorry, I must've missed our Town Cop vetting HF
, and now you're calling him scummy but kind of backhandedly while trying to lynch me.
You are playing for more scummier, and what do you want me to do, push you whilst voting for Sent???
Feels like you're trying to start another wagon on me, while simultaneously trying to distance yourself if Sentinel gets lynched. If you lynch me, gg mafia wins. If Sentinel gets lynched, you can at least say "aw shucks, I knew it!!" Makes good sense considering you would win with one mislynch.
Makes no sense, assuming he's Scum, why would I want to distance myself from his lynch?
On October 23 2018 23:15 darthfoley wrote: Why do you hate to say this? If he's less scummy, that should be a good thing right? This wording sticks out to me as stilted and awkward
Yeah, getting less sure on your scum reads sure is a great thing.
On October 23 2018 23:38 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: byj you as well although you've answered #1, and you said you agree DF is scum and prplhz is town. Of me, Koshi and ruXxar who do you think is the second scum and why?
I initially had you as 2nd scum, but your thread play seems somewhat townie now, although that might be because of the lack of involvement from anybody else... I don't know if Koshi's or raX's inactivity is because they can just sit back and win, or are actually not reading the thread. My most solid scum read now is DF Also as it is now it looks like Koshi will get mod killed, so if he turns out to be town the game is over either way
Nah he voted. Which is the issue since there's already 3 votes on me and even if the 3 of us vote for one other candidate, the 3 on me take precedence and I get lynched.
Just wanna put it out there that byj is my top town rn after prplhz.
scum is in of sentinel, koshi, df.
im thinking sentinel + koshi makes the most sense.
On October 24 2018 05:57 Koshi wrote: Prplhz do you 100% believe sentinel is mafia? Imo he isnt. Willing to make towncase if needed.
But in the end I moght consider voting woth you
This post is the perfect example of trying to get the vote off sentinel, but also trying to look like he'll actually follow town sentiment if he cant change the vote.
Hosting Bebop Mafia is going to be my last participation with Team liquid and mafia for a long time. Most likely permanent.
I've hosted two games in a row to keep things ticking along but it feels like flogging a dead horse. Sign-ups take a long time and once the game starts there is usually an AFK and general apathy. We reached the end of D2 and had about 11 pages total. The way Holyflare got lynched D1 was a good example of what TL mafia has become.
I understand that as we all get older, lives get busier. Many players I enjoyed games with have moved away from the site. People's priorities shift, mine included and I don't have the time or inclination to continue with an experience that has become unenjoyable.
Thank you for putting up with me and I wish everyone the best.
Yea, the game wasn't very active and Palmar got modkilled, but we only had eight players to begin with. If it had been a regular 13 p game, I'm sure we would've had a decent amount of activity
I was a little busy before D2. I wasn't lying about the I-was-only-pretending-to-be-retarded strategy but the reason I did it in the first place was I couldn't find enough time to participate much D1. That said, even though I didn't solve the game, coming up with a big case on everyone really got me back into the spirit of this game.
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
On October 24 2018 08:32 iamperfection wrote: tl mafia is dead
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
On October 24 2018 08:32 iamperfection wrote: tl mafia is dead
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
On October 24 2018 07:36 KelsierSC wrote: Hosting Bebop Mafia is going to be my last participation with Team liquid and mafia for a long time. Most likely permanent.
I've hosted two games in a row to keep things ticking along but it feels like flogging a dead horse. Sign-ups take a long time and once the game starts there is usually an AFK and general apathy. We reached the end of D2 and had about 11 pages total. The way Holyflare got lynched D1 was a good example of what TL mafia has become.
I understand that as we all get older, lives get busier. Many players I enjoyed games with have moved away from the site. People's priorities shift, mine included and I don't have the time or inclination to continue with an experience that has become unenjoyable.
Thank you for putting up with me and I wish everyone the best.
Even in the "hey-day" of TL, the same issues above existed, just that the high player/game count buried it.
Are you aware of other sites that dont have AFK and/or general apathy?
I don't know of a solution is either. I have suspected for some time, the decay is a natural consequence of SC2 decline - among other factors as well.
I look at some other forums and find the page layout to be really based on casual/phone posters, where the signature is more prevalent than the post content. But then, those threads also have auto vote counters etc; some even have automated hosts.
I think that you cannot control what type of players you put into a game. Yes you can restrict, but you cannot force a playstyle. What you can control are the little niceties that make the experience smoother for all, and then put more focus into the game itself.
Im not really sure where to go with that, I don't play mafia anywhere else.
My 2c only, and it is a shame to have lost another player/host to the cemetery.
I think the apathy is from the lack of new players. Pretty much everyone has been playing here for years and years now and it's hard to be as enthusiastic about playing your 30th game as your first couple.
On October 24 2018 08:32 iamperfection wrote: tl mafia is dead
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
im actually flabbergasted
Well my random disappearance from the internet didn't help
On October 24 2018 07:36 KelsierSC wrote: Hosting Bebop Mafia is going to be my last participation with Team liquid and mafia for a long time. Most likely permanent.
I've hosted two games in a row to keep things ticking along but it feels like flogging a dead horse. Sign-ups take a long time and once the game starts there is usually an AFK and general apathy. We reached the end of D2 and had about 11 pages total. The way Holyflare got lynched D1 was a good example of what TL mafia has become.
I understand that as we all get older, lives get busier. Many players I enjoyed games with have moved away from the site. People's priorities shift, mine included and I don't have the time or inclination to continue with an experience that has become unenjoyable.
Thank you for putting up with me and I wish everyone the best.
Even in the "hey-day" of TL, the same issues above existed, just that the high player/game count buried it.
Are you aware of other sites that dont have AFK and/or general apathy?
I don't know of a solution is either. I have suspected for some time, the decay is a natural consequence of SC2 decline - among other factors as well.
I look at some other forums and find the page layout to be really based on casual/phone posters, where the signature is more prevalent than the post content. But then, those threads also have auto vote counters etc; some even have automated hosts.
I think that you cannot control what type of players you put into a game. Yes you can restrict, but you cannot force a playstyle. What you can control are the little niceties that make the experience smoother for all, and then put more focus into the game itself.
Im not really sure where to go with that, I don't play mafia anywhere else.
My 2c only, and it is a shame to have lost another player/host to the cemetery.
This is almost entirely correct. We've been modkilling or policy lynching afk-ers for years. The difference is that high player counts masks a lot of problems. It's much less punishing to modkill people in 20-30 player games. Additionally, when games fill and start within a day or two, people are just more likely to be there. There's more reason to click the site when there's always something new going on.
Teamliquid as a site has probably shrunk quite significantly. We've getting very little new blood in for a long time now. This has nothing to do with the community itself, as new players wouldn't have any kind of grasp on whether it is good or bad.
I've actually been at the rise and fall of other online communities, and there may be a reason to discuss ideas on what, if anything, we want to do to preserve or take this one forward.
On October 24 2018 07:36 KelsierSC wrote: Hosting Bebop Mafia is going to be my last participation with Team liquid and mafia for a long time. Most likely permanent.
I've hosted two games in a row to keep things ticking along but it feels like flogging a dead horse. Sign-ups take a long time and once the game starts there is usually an AFK and general apathy. We reached the end of D2 and had about 11 pages total. The way Holyflare got lynched D1 was a good example of what TL mafia has become.
I understand that as we all get older, lives get busier. Many players I enjoyed games with have moved away from the site. People's priorities shift, mine included and I don't have the time or inclination to continue with an experience that has become unenjoyable.
Thank you for putting up with me and I wish everyone the best.
Even in the "hey-day" of TL, the same issues above existed, just that the high player/game count buried it.
Are you aware of other sites that dont have AFK and/or general apathy?
I don't know of a solution is either. I have suspected for some time, the decay is a natural consequence of SC2 decline - among other factors as well.
I look at some other forums and find the page layout to be really based on casual/phone posters, where the signature is more prevalent than the post content. But then, those threads also have auto vote counters etc; some even have automated hosts.
I think that you cannot control what type of players you put into a game. Yes you can restrict, but you cannot force a playstyle. What you can control are the little niceties that make the experience smoother for all, and then put more focus into the game itself.
Im not really sure where to go with that, I don't play mafia anywhere else.
My 2c only, and it is a shame to have lost another player/host to the cemetery.
This is almost entirely correct. We've been modkilling or policy lynching afk-ers for years. The difference is that high player counts masks a lot of problems. It's much less punishing to modkill people in 20-30 player games. Additionally, when games fill and start within a day or two, people are just more likely to be there. There's more reason to click the site when there's always something new going on.
Teamliquid as a site has probably shrunk quite significantly. We've getting very little new blood in for a long time now. This has nothing to do with the community itself, as new players wouldn't have any kind of grasp on whether it is good or bad.
I've actually been at the rise and fall of other online communities, and there may be a reason to discuss ideas on what, if anything, we want to do to preserve or take this one forward.
So what are your thoughts regarding the best course TL Mafia can take?
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it. BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
It's generally not a good idea to lynch the person doing the most talking in a game where there are 0 posts.
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it. BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
It's generally not a good idea to lynch the person doing the most talking in a game where there are 0 posts.
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it. BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
It's generally not a good idea to lynch the person doing the most talking in a game where there are 0 posts.
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it. BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
It's generally not a good idea to lynch the person doing the most talking in a game where there are 0 posts.
Okay so Koshi the i-wont-ever-lynch-rayn-until-D3-even-if-i-thought-he-could-be-mafia guy got away with "leading" a lynch on HF for literally no reason, and never said anything of substance really throughout whole game (not to blame him, apparently he didnt really have to..)
DF came with the basic 8 min after deadline post blaming the lynch and then never took any action against the guy who lead the lynch for no reason (aka Koshi). I know df sometimes does the first part as town too but id still lynch him (or anyone) for that every time.
I agree with you on DF, Koshi and prplhz, but I got no clue about ruXxar. I hate to say it, but it made you seem less scummy. But still what you said after the lynch makes you seem so scummy... even riding onto another lynch with HF is something beneficial for Scum I'd say, and something I'd do. Assuming you get it you have the chance to upgrade from a VT to a power role, and once pressed about changing the vote you could argue that it's because you think that HF was town - and thus implying lynch votes onto you are misdirected and should be onto HF if they really think he's scum... maybe I'm reading way too much into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Guess I'll go to sleep for real now, looking forward to hearing from you Koshi and ruXxar
My D1 plan was pretty simple:
1) Lynch any good source of information. Especially in a game this inactive I have absolutely no idea who's town and who's scum (most of) D1. Whoever we lynch, hopefully it's contentious enough that we get different wagons. Maybe even if we lynched Palmar in absentia (like over the course of the day, not rapidly at the end), we would've had a productive conversation about it. BUT lynching someone like HF who has said a lot of stuff will give us lots of information. If we lynch Palmar he has said nothing and the fact that he is town gives us no additional information (besides how people voted and why). If we lynch HF we get all that and we get to see lots of confirmed town posts. If he turned out to be scum we just stopped scum from running the thread in their frame.
And you might ask "why didn't you lynch your scum reads instead?" which is the ideal town strat right? Right now my most probable scumteam is ruXxar and darthfoley. I would have no idea besides a very light suspicion on DF that those two were scum. Probably someone else would be an idiot or I'd somehow convince myself Koshi was scum and I'd get a towny lynched even if I had my way.
2) Get a wagon on me. First of all mafia is way more fun when everyone is talking about you. But second from my perspective I had no idea what to make of the game so I wanted to reduce the number of variables. Towns generally give more risky and more substantial arguments for lynching someone. Scums either tag along or have to frame the argument in which the target (me) is scum and ignore the one in which the target is not scum. I've used it before to varying success but usually it helps more than it hurts.
Maybe it makes it a little more ass to play a game with me - I don't know, you tell me about that one.
It's generally not a good idea to lynch the person doing the most talking in a game where there are 0 posts.
I talked as much D2 as you did D1 and vice versa
I wouldn't say much was lost in terms of activity
That didn't work out either though did it?
Did your plan to lynch byj work out?
I mean this is being pretty obtuse because I didn't want to lynch byj in the end and he hadn't said anything of substance or quantity when I wanted to lynch him but in future a game plan shouldn't revolve around killing the only person or persons propelling the game forward by talking because:
A) Mafia is going to kill them anyway if they're talking too much and causing activity. B) You get more information the longer they're alive. If that person didn't get killed by mafia but they're the only one playing then it's more likely than not that they are mafia. C) Talking more, if they are town, means that mafia has to talk more to blend in and thus make more mistakes.
Saying the lynch would be polarising and thus you would gain more information because of it is not a good game plan. It's not the worst offense in the game by any means.
On October 24 2018 08:32 iamperfection wrote: tl mafia is dead
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
On October 24 2018 08:32 iamperfection wrote: tl mafia is dead
absolutely atrocious play by both sides really how koshi dosen't get policy lynched for that day 1 is inexcusable.
Ridiculously town favored setup and still manage to lose? Cop didn't know he was cop? How is that even possible if you read your role pm. how did you know you were town ?
EPT![[image loading]](http://sevac.studiojab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/banner-cowboy-bebop.png)
full of micro aggressions
