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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 08:21 Trfel wrote: I didn't have an opinion on Tumblewood until I checked his filter more carefully, and then I realized that I was missing some important things. Like what? Be specific. You cited literal none of these "important things" when you voted him. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 08:26 Trfel wrote: Of course not, he has to answer my question first. Then he gets to know why he's mafia  What a cop out. I hate this. I feel obligated not to press you further on this in the event I'm wrong and you're on to something. But if I'm right and you're full of it, this is just giving you time to stall me out and avoid getting lynched. If you're town you need to make a good faith effort to show me you're not full of it with this line of questioning. I read Tumblewood's filter and felt his suspicions of Shapelog were very consistent and understandable (though I disagree with them). This question looks very do-nothing, like a lot of your questions have been this game. And your flip in those posts I cited is really suspicious to me. I'm trying to act in good faith and not screw up your play if you are town. Meet me halfway and give me a reason to believe you're not just hot air with this. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Just remove 'experienced' and read it again, it'll make sense. Took me a sec too when you asked. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 08:45 Trfel wrote: Eden, I'm trying very hard to not direct the thread. It's a newbie game, I feel like the new players should lead it. Basically, I don't feel that Tumblewood actually cares about his scumreads. His filter seems to be contributing, but while it is contributing, it doesn't seem like he's scumhunting. He's always scumreading the top suspects, but not talking about them, either, which is probably the biggest example of this. I'm sympathetic to the idea that you don't want to dominate discussion in a newbie game, but I don't feel your play is emblematic of that concern. It looks more like you're asking questions to ask them -- just reacting to the thread for its own sake instead of having a particular direction or angle that you care about pursuing. If you were just trying not to take over discussion and crowd out the new guys, I think you would probably limit the number of things you attempt to respond to, as if to say "I'll cover this and this, the newbies can handle this line so I'll give them a shot at it". But that's not what happened -- you've asked a lot of people a lot of things and then just not followed through on many of them at all. But ok, let's say that you were doing what you said you were doing. (It'd be hard to have a meaningful conversation otherwise, I suppose...) What did that lead you to conclude about the new guys? Which new players do you feel were more of the "leaders" of the town and why? Who stood out among the newer guys (aside from Tumblewood, which you are already explaining now) as having not done this? I can still sorta buy that you were hanging back more to let the new guys do some work, but you gotta show me some proof that you're still invested. As for Tumblewood... - You say his filter is "contributing but not scumhunting." If you think he's mafia how do you think that he's contributing to the thread? Is meaningful contribution to the thread not the hallmark of town play? - I will allow you not to answer this question if it would blow up your attempt to question Tumblewood too much. But suffice to say that I disagree with you when you say that he's "always scumreading the top suspects but not talking about them." On an (admittedly cursory) read of his filter he seems to be explaining his scumreads to a reasonable extent whenever he's talking about them. Can you please cite examples to the contrary if it won't screw up your questioning too much to elaborate? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
That's gonna be my last post for today. I'm worried that this game might damage my productivity at work tomorrow though. might damage my productivity might ![[image loading]](http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/hehehehehe_duck.gif) | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 10:46 nooniansoong wrote: my point is that if you accept that as an acceptable reason to scumread someone, tumbleweed's reads make perfect sense. Bingo. And not only that, I don't even see how Tumblewood's opinions about Shapelog and darthfoley are inconsistent. He pointed out early that both players made self-references to their not being mafia and had them as two of his top three suspects. His opinions of the two players diverge as the game goes on, which makes sense given that they're saying and doing different things. I'm biased and open to being talked down, but I read Trfel's case and came away feeling like I'd cornered him on his apparent flip-flop on his read on Tumblewood, and that he forced this case where it wasn't really there to look like he sincerely believed he had something there. I'm still fine lynching Trfel. Keeping my vote in place. Also okay with this wagon on Jesus. kush's point on Jesus is okay, darth's emergent case on Jesus is pretty strong for day 1, both of those players are strong town to me, and both players attacked on completely different axes from the other. Would sheep 10/10, will switch vote to push this wagon over the top if Trfel isn't going or some other wagon looks poised to overtake both. EBWOthreadrefresh: This Ikidomari guy is basically lock scum, we can lynch him too. Stealing my dude Koshi's styling and heuristic for part of this. PMT is one of my top town reads, either that or very good mafia, and I'm being taken for a ride, but based on their lack of forum experience, I'd say PMT is just good town. literally "this guy is town, either that or mafia," breaking the tie on an arbitrary factor (alleged lack of forum experience) which has no impact on alignment Tumbleweed looks like this is his first game, or one of his first, went very pro-active early, maybe a bit over-aggressive on the scum calls, but started making more town reads later on. I don't know, comes off as bad town trying too hard, or bad mafia to me, i'm not experienced enough to tell the difference. If I had to give a solid answer, I'd say he's bad town who changed his mind a bit too often in an attempt to get reactions out of people, falling over himself trying to avoid being mis-lynched. again with the "this guy is town, either that or mafia" read, but this time with a dose of newbie johns to excuse himself from not committing to one stance or the other. Everyone go read the stickied analysis by Ver on XXX Mafia and then scroll for the part where he dissects how this one new player does the exact same thing in that game as mafia. You'll see it and you'll read this and thank me. Posts he has made haven't been very constructive at all. He's coming off as extremely arrogant, enough so that it's got to be some sort of act, because there's no way someone's going to say "I am a Mafia Grandmaster", "speak to me with respect, I deserve it, i am above you" unless they're putting it on, and I mean, look at that name. Only constructive information he's given to town is calling out Eden for supposedly falling for a simple strat. My read is that jesus is an unhelpful town, who has annoying posts to read- 'sick meme' 'residentsleeper' Jesus, why are you putting such a big target on your back for someone to attack you? what do you gain? how is this constructive Ikidomari? you go on to say that I'm town and Shapelog (the object of the strategy in question) isn't necessarily scum so how is this helping anybody? and what good is the question to Jesus there anyway? is that going to help you read him? because neither alignment is incentivized to make themselves more prone to being attacked so I'm not sure how this does... Not enough information on the guy [Kuragari] to make a proper judgement. Slightly scummy, not enough to vote on. no use to this at all. doesn't explain how Kuragari is particularly scummy, says he doesn't have enough info for proper judgment, throws a scumread out anyway. Maybe this is a sick town play and we're going to get rid of mafia on the first night, but I think, judging from his experience, Trfel is an experienced mafia player, and is scum trying to get a townie lynched on day 1. yet another "this guy is town, either that or mafia" read, arbitrarily tiebroken toward Trfel being mafia based on experience. I don't think he's [Onegu is] scum enough to vote, but definitely enough to keep my eye on. he at least commits to Onegu being scum, but again with the "suspicious but not enough to vote on" conclusions... but then he also thinks Trfel is scum? and even says he agrees with Onegu's read on Trfel. How do you have both of them as scum, Ikidomari? My top 3 for each Scum: Onegu, JesusIncarnate, Tfel Town: PMT, Darth, Alur Keep a close eye on: Shape, Tumble, Kuragari - so now Jesus became a top 3 scum read after calling Jesus "unhelpful town" in the actual read on Jesus - he has Onegu as "keep my eye on" but then puts him in scum instead of the literal reads group titled "keep a close eye on" and he doesn't list me and kush/noon as town reads despite calling us these. ^^i bring this up even though it's NAI in and of itself, because these arbitrary designations give him a clean "three town three scum three watch-out" list of reads; too clean to me. It just looks inorganic that he has an even split of reads, that's just not how reads naturally evolve normally. It looks more like a manufactured list to me. also there's this: from here on out my posts are going to be shorter, I'm getting a headache going over everything, this is my own fault for being so inactive at the start, there's so much content to wrap my head around. excuses for not being caught up. this might as well read "disregard what I'm saying and ignore my reads," he's literally giving us multiple reasons (inactivity/falling behind, struggling to read the thread thoroughly) for discrediting his reads. what townie does this? if you just don't have anything to add then you don't post anything or post what you do have to add (strong town reads if nothing else). newbie scum do this all the time, they post a large post of reads that looks involved and invested in the game, but then seed all kinds of backdoors to escape committing to those reads with various excuses and waffling in the reads themselves. this is basically a portrait of what new scum looks like ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Ikidomari | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 14:35 Ikidomari wrote: Whoops, My bad. I'm going to vote on my top scum / useless town read at the moment, I'm open to changing this if people sway my opinion. ##Vote JesusIncarnate oh my goodness it's actual literal magic christmasland. is it really this easy? lock for scum | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
then when the wagons are showing up to be Trfel (actual scum) or Jesus (unhelpful town) drops a vote to push the wagon on his town read ahead of his scum read | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
My read is that jesus is an unhelpful town, who has annoying posts to read- 'sick meme' 'residentsleeper' Maybe this is a sick town play and we're going to get rid of mafia on the first night, but I think, judging from his experience, Trfel is an experienced mafia player, and is scum trying to get a townie lynched on day 1. Whoops, My bad. I'm going to vote on my top scum / useless town read at the moment, I'm open to changing this if people sway my opinion. ##Vote JesusIncarnate | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I'll humor that your post took a while and you changed your mind as a result, Iki. After all, I pretty rapidly changed course on who I wanted to lynch while I was typing my post  But you got to explain to me what changed your mind. It's a bit odd to me that you claim you did, because you didn't make much mention of Jesus in-between your read on him and your list of reads. And you didn't put it back in at the end... or in the follow-up post where you voted for him... So what changed your mind about Jesus? Please be as specific as you can. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 28 2016 15:25 Ikidomari wrote: Sure. It's his attitude. I admit I'm biased because I dislike the way he types, but I couldn't stop thinking about motivations as to why he'd be so arrogant, and how that arrogance could be used to his advantage. The only logical reason that I could see someone would draw so much attention to themselves is so that, if they were mafia, people would think "Man, there's no way mafia would be stupid enough to draw that much attention to themselves, he must be town" It seems suspicious as hell to me, and I can't think of a good reason a town player would paint themselves as a target. His posting style reminds me of an anonymous poster on 4chan, not of a TL user looking to solve a puzzle. Source: I spend far too much time on both websites. Why would a mafia want to paint a target on their back if a townie wouldn't want to paint a target on their back? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I got work allllll day tomorrow, will hopefully be able to check in before deadline and read. I don't think we should lynch JesusIncarnate today. Too many people are willing to do it for reasons that don't really make him scummy with nobody really trying to stop it (except I guess me). I'm still down for a Trfel lynch as a backup plan. And if all that goes to hell I'm 99% sheeping kush. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
Iki, why would a mafia want to paint a target on their backs if a townie wouldn't want to do so? | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
This guy's probably not mafia. ##UNVOTE Iki, + Show Spoiler + That's kind of alright logic, but it presupposes that if attacked, the mafia can hold off the attack and get townread. Neither side wants to get lynched, obviously, but one side actively cares about not being lynched (mafia) while the other primarily cares about lynching mafia (town). Painting a target on one's own back notably can serve a town purpose (baiting scum into pushing a bad case on them, a kind of reaction test), but it can't really serve a mafia purpose (you would then have to explain how you were baiting scum and make a case on people, or just get mislynched -- with people heavily scrutinizing your post for errors or reasons to lynch you). In essence I think you have it backwards. Townies have some motivation to bait attacks on themselves, since they're trying to find mafia, not necessarily survive. Mafia, on the other hand, win only by surviving and thus have next to no incentive to bait attacks on themselves. But I believe you sincerely believe what you say, and if I believe this, then your explanation makes sense to me from your POV. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I think I'm just gonna vote for Iki after all. I don't think I want Trfel to go today. Still not feeling this Jesus train -- still too many people on him for things that don't make him mafia to make me comfortable with it. Really nothing changed to make me think that Iki couldn't be mafia. Might be letting him off the hook too easily, idk. I reread my case and I feel like Iki didn't really rebut what I was saying, so probably I should just lynch him. ##VOTE: Ikidomari I feel like Onegu also hasn't done anything in a hot minute. That's probably a good reason to kill him too. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
If this guy flips town then slap all the dummies voting him because of a "slip" that for sure wasn't one (probably) But those reads make no sense with the game state. His scum reads are inconsistent as a team (me and Iki are never ever partners) and the reasoning on them is shoddy and just borrowed from what other people are saying. So are the town reads. The whole thing is just right in line with popular town sentiments with nothing firm said either way (it's almost all leans and nothing committed). I like Iki the best because I'm pretty confident in my initial impression of his posting. But this Kura guy is a fine lynch too based on those reads. | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
I just remember you and kush havin decent but not absolutrly correct reasons to kill him, and the. After that some suspicious people jumped on it, and it made me think it was a bad lynch | ||
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On January 29 2016 05:18 Alur wrote: Surprised you wouldn't vote for Jesus, since it seems like the most viable strategy for you to not get lynched. Since he's your primary competition, lynchwise. Sigh don't tell him this I was looking forward to using this data point without him being conscious of t and changing his behavior | ||
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