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Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:31 GMT
#4481
On January 29 2016 19:18 Palmar wrote:
Btw, Onegu flipping mafia is why I killed VA, and why I would do it again every time.

Onegu was mafia because he did mafia things. Even if my read waffled near the end of the day on him, the fact that he did scummy shit (like picking a scum role, and wasting a town role) made him mafia. His actions speak louder than any kind of a gut read I have.

VA lied about his role. He should have died on n1, but he got protected somehow. I figured no townie would ever protect VA due to activity and standing so I was sure it had to be a mafia protection. It turns out it was his own protection because he lied about the role. I killed someone who lied, and I would do it every time.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK OR I WILL NUKE YOU AGAIN.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:33 GMT
#4482
ok this means that tomorrow we can figure out the game
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:33 GMT
#4483
and lose if mafia doesn't hit mafia for once in their lives come on you can do it!
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:35 GMT
#4484
On January 29 2016 19:56 Palmar wrote:
Does anyone not understand why I think disformation is mafia?

If it was the reason you gave earlier than no.

If it was because he made the "I guess Vivax wasn't abyssal walker after all" post than yes.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:45 GMT
#4485
shining his tone is really townie though. Can't see him as mafia. It is possible but he does it well then.
I had a good night of sleep.
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
January 29 2016 13:47 GMT
#4486
On January 29 2016 22:31 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2016 19:18 Palmar wrote:
Btw, Onegu flipping mafia is why I killed VA, and why I would do it again every time.

Onegu was mafia because he did mafia things. Even if my read waffled near the end of the day on him, the fact that he did scummy shit (like picking a scum role, and wasting a town role) made him mafia. His actions speak louder than any kind of a gut read I have.

VA lied about his role. He should have died on n1, but he got protected somehow. I figured no townie would ever protect VA due to activity and standing so I was sure it had to be a mafia protection. It turns out it was his own protection because he lied about the role. I killed someone who lied, and I would do it every time.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK OR I WILL NUKE YOU AGAIN.

No, you see:

I'm not trying to say I was RIGHT, I'm just saying that I am okay with being wrong in the way that I was. I am not good enough at mafia to figure out everyone's alignment all the time, so I often use indicators to aid in my reads.
Computer says mafia
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
January 29 2016 13:48 GMT
#4487
On January 29 2016 22:33 Koshi wrote:
and lose if mafia doesn't hit mafia for once in their lives come on you can do it!

I sort of want to believe mafia is just really fucking awful at scumhunting, rather than them being dumbasses and repeatedly shooting only town.
Computer says mafia
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:54 GMT
#4488
Just read Keir his filter again. Dude has 0% chance to be mafia. Last time I was on drugs.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 13:55 GMT
#4489
CopCake
Tictock
disformation
sicklucker

Only ones that could possible be mafia. I am sure. Please everybody shoot them.
I had a good night of sleep.
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
January 29 2016 14:02 GMT
#4490
Disfo case (short because lazy):

Unlike everyone else in the game who responded like human beings to my case on Kita, disformation felt the need to break it down without reaching any kind of conclusion at all about it. Additionally, even though he had a "scum lean" on Kita he didn't mention kita even once after this until the nuke had been fired.

Like this breakdown is the most robotic and fake thing I have ever seen. I'm going to demonstrate why:

On January 24 2016 02:49 disformation wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 24 2016 00:45 Palmar wrote:
The case against Kitaman27


Remember Palmar from Outlaw mafia? Man that guy was a dick. He shot all the people who were right and argued his way out of a lynch with the rest.

This game the guy who has the potential to do this is Kitaman. He's a very good player who would basically always be considered top tier if he played more. He is especially good at town.

What all the angry people (rayn, koshi etc) who think town played terribly in Outlaw fail to realize, is that it's their own damn fault for not leaving a rock-solid conclusive case behind that I couldn't argue against. I'm not going to make their mistake, this case will be a comprehensive reasoning Kitaman27 is mafia.




Part 1: Kita's original scumread on Vivax


This is both the best part about the case, and also the most difficult one to understand. I'll try to use small words for the benefit of certain people.

Vivax posted the post that immediately revealed him as mafia (well, not immediately, but it became clear he didn't follow up at all on it. This is the particular post:

Show nested quote +
On January 20 2016 00:55 Vivax wrote:
Picking 1 1, obviously a lie.

Obviously the truth.

Pretty much sums up why this shitty number claiming strat won't do jack.


After this, Kita had a "discussion" with Vivax

Show nested quote +
On January 20 2016 00:58 kitaman27 wrote:
Well based on the pick order, you basically have an idea of what every single player picked by day one. Essentially claiming the numbers reduces the odds of overlap, while mafia knows what each other is picking so they can avoid it already. Like a few games ago, like 6 players chose [9] or something stupid like that. What's the disadvantage Vivax?


Vivax responded to this with:

Show nested quote +
On January 20 2016 01:26 Vivax wrote:
On January 20 2016 00:58 kitaman27 wrote:
Well based on the pick order, you basically have an idea of what every single player picked by day one. Essentially claiming the numbers reduces the odds of overlap, while mafia knows what each other is picking so they can avoid it already. Like a few games ago, like 6 players chose [9] or something stupid like that. What's the disadvantage Vivax?


You dont know if its truthful what anyone claims and if it is then mafia can pretty much pick the sweet numbers to at least have 1 of their members pick first, I think.


So this was the extent of their conversation and posts about each other until I joined the thread about 2 or 3 hours later.

The important part is that Vivax wouldn't go on to post anything more for a long time. I basically saw Vivax's post and immediately called him out as mafia, then Kitaman decided to agree with me, without having shown no inclination towards calling Vivax mafia in the previous interaction.

Show nested quote +
On January 20 2016 03:36 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 20 2016 03:15 Palmar wrote:
On January 20 2016 00:55 Vivax wrote:
Picking 1 1, obviously a lie.

Obviously the truth.

Pretty much sums up why this shitty number claiming strat won't do jack.

Vivax is mafia. Not simply because he refuses to cooperate but because he refuses to cooperate AND that is everything he brings to the table.


Vivax was the first person that I picked out as mafia too.

Shows up to complain about something, but doesn't do anything about it.


The point is that what was originally just a reason to put a pretty mild question on Vivax became a pretty strong scumread without Vivax doing anything in the meantime. And the first sentence in Kita's post is the important one. He CLAIMS that he had already picked out Vivax as mafia, so why didn't he do anything about it???

It's also important to notice that if you go to Kita's filter you can see that while he consistently called Vivax mafia he was never actively trying to lynch him. He wasn't yelling for the lynch in the same way I do. There is no way a town Kita cares so little about the lynch.




Part 2: Kita's case on me


Show nested quote +
On January 21 2016 08:40 kitaman27 wrote:
On January 21 2016 07:21 Palmar wrote:
The reason is quite simple. If we assign everyone roles, mafia can just freely pick a role that wasn't assigned to them. The entire point of having ffa/check players is for them to take roles that SHOULD have been taken before them to PROVE the players before them actually took the roles they were meant to take. It's a failsafe.


Let me show you why this is so, so, so wrong.

Palmar's plan:
Koshi, damdred, and kitaman27 are free for all picks that are instructed to pick a role above them in the list to PROVE the players above us actually take a role that they want.

Result:
Koshi, damdred, and kitaman27 wind up as Mysterious challengers because they were idiotic enough to pick a role that was already selected. BUT AT LEAST WE VERIFIED 3 PICKS, RIGHT GUYS?

Kita's plan:
Koshi picks his assigned power role
damdred picks his assigned power role
kita picks his assigned power role

Result:
Between those three roles we now have
1x watcher
2x tracker
2x protection
1x nuke
1x secondary lynch
1x parity cop
1x alignment cop

So what's more important, all those abilities or verifying that 3 people above us took the roles they promised (which has no alignment indicative information. Even if a player takes their assigned role, they still could be mafia)


I have already explained why having the checks is important and far better. Also I want everyone to understand that I put shady, experienced players on the check roles because I wanted to fucking deny them roles. I wanted them to just become MC at random.

But more importantly, even if he doesn't agree with me, it doesn't make me mafia. Nothing he says in the first part of the case makes me mafia.

Show nested quote +
On January 21 2016 08:40 kitaman27 wrote:

On January 21 2016 07:21 Palmar wrote:
If we have no failssafes, mafia can just pick whatever the fuck they want. Essentially, my plan is pointless.


No they really can't. For a mafia player to "pick whatever they want", that means that the role can't already have been chosen by another player. If they pick above another player, then they are denying the player below, that player claims and we have a combination of role checks, the kitaman27 role, and trackers to figure out who it was.

So that leaves the list of roles that go unpicked. They're almost all trash:

Hero - Picked by VA anyways
Puppeteer - Useless for mafia
Dimensional Lemming - Useless for mafia
Speaker for the Dead - Useless for mafia
Artanis - Useless for mafia
GreYMisT - Useless for mafia because it only delays things for 12 hours.
Janitor - 1 shot use and can't be used on the lynch. Not a high priority
Copycat - Not a priority
Tommy the Fireman - Okay mafia role, but not a
Psy - If he uses his ability, it confirms he is in the game and we get him by role check, track or kitaman27
Alchemist - A delayed 1 shot vig? meh I suppose it is useful for mafia, but not a huge priority pick to justify breaking the plan
Yu Narukami - Kinda useful role, but I suggested that it be picked in my post so it wouldn't be open

Knight Artorias - Strong mafia role

Essentially there is one mafia role that is worth grabbing and we have sicklucker's honest check on that one. Furthermore, since all role selections are basically public, you are responsible for your actions. Say the tracker decides that they are going to "undermine" your plan and grab a different role. They still gotta say who they visited each night, their tracker results etc. So essentially lie each night about their action. It's not worth the mafia risk.

On January 21 2016 07:21 Palmar wrote:
I basically can't be arsed arguing this, I am out of energy trying to get people to be not stupid.

Kita is very likely mafia because he's not dumb enough to think his version is an actual improvement.


On January 21 2016 07:21 Palmar wrote:
Kita's additions completely undermine my plan.



Again a bunch of plan talk, none of which makes me mafia.

Show nested quote +
On January 21 2016 08:40 kitaman27 wrote:
The fact that you're trying to take my clearly superior plan and justify it as a reason that I'm mafia is preposterous. Earlier in the game you mentioned that town's objective is to maximize the amount of blue roles we get. Yet here you are pushing a plan where there players are doing "honest checks". When I edit your plan to maximize the blue roles it makes me scum? That's laughable.

Palmar is mafia


So finally, here is the part that actually "makes me mafia". Notice how he wrote a massive case and nothing in it was actually about me being mafia. It was just a giant argument that his clearly shitty plan was somehow better than mine because it gave scummy people roles.

My plan focused exactly on getting town as many blue roles as possible I just didn't want scum to get them too!

There is literally no way kita believes that me being convinced that my plan is better like this somehow means I'm mafia. It's entirely possible he's bad and genuinely (irrelevant of his alignment) thinks that his plan is better, but there is no way he believes it makes me mafia.

It was a giant ass fake case based on nothing. Literally flinging shit to see if it sticks.

Also, just like the Vivax read, I don't feel like he made a strong push to actually lynch me.

In fact I don't think Kita has passionately pushed anyone this game. It's just some shitty lists of 3-5 people thrown together as maybe mafia.




Part 3: Various other things


  • Tonally it feels like Kitaman is structured but not really invested
  • His latest "list of various scummy people". Is once again just a shitty list with no conclusion or no motivation to kill someone specific. Just a "these people are maybe mafia".
  • For a long time it felt like his filter was relatively short. It's up to maybe 7 pages now, but it was 5 pages back on day 1. Again, the whole "not invested" thing.
  • He didn't at all help me strongarm the lynch onto Vivax. This doesn't mean they have to be scumbuddies, it just once more means that despite a strong, consistent scumread of his being lynched, he barely cared. He kept randomly calling Vivax mafia while not really trying to do anything about it





Part 4: Suggestions on how to deal with Kita in the future if I'm dead


  • Shoot him
  • If he tries to argue with you, just copy paste this case repeatedly instead of responding to him
  • Vote him
  • Reply to all his posts by posting youtube videos of Donald Trump speeches
  • Never listen to him
  • Don't believe "checks" on him. He's mafia.
  • Insult him using creative British words like "Wazzock" and "Buffoon".
  • Shoot him again





I hope you all enjoyed my case on Kitaman27. He is always mafia this game no matter what he says. If this game ends and he's still alive there will be killings.

Good Luck!



Well, not sure I like the introduction. Sounds a bit like a fear read... but then again: after remembering that kita was JudgeJudy I can agree that he is pretty damn good. xD


Translation:

1) Don't like whoever wrote the case
2) Palmar, literally the most experienced player on TL Mafia, is making a "fear read". Which is of course bullshit.
3) But then again, fuck everything I just said because I'm afraid of kita (the irony)

Literally, nothing.


On January 24 2016 02:49 disformation wrote:
Part 1
Hmm... still not sure about this one. Yes, the claim is a bit odd, but I don't think it is as scum indicating as you make it out to be. Looked through his filter with a strg+f on vivax and he was digging up stuff on Vivax like this post:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2016 06:01 kitaman27 wrote:
Re-read through Vivax's pretty short filter again though I don't have much to add. So far it seems pretty similar to the afk scum vivax from TL Mafia LXXIII: The Nutcracker.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/499399-tl-mafia-lxxiii-the-nutcracker?user=Vivax

I know I was pretty deadset on him being mafia in the recent resistance game until he suddenly turned on the activity so maybe he will show us something in the next 24 hours. If he continues to ignore the game, then I'd probably lynch him.


Translation:

1) I don't think this makes Kita mafia
2) I don't even know what Palmar is talking about (the timing is important in my case, so he goes to find some shitty quote that happened out of the timeline I was talking about and convinces himself with it).

So in summary, nothing.

On January 24 2016 02:49 disformation wrote:
Part 2
At the time I thought this is probably town on town having a different opinion about which plan is better, especially since kitaman's suggestions sounded reasonable to me. Reading his case on you again, it looks pretty bad.


I'm going to summarize the analysis disformation did in this part.
[/Quote]it looks pretty bad.[/QUOTE]
That's it, no reasons why and nothing about it. Just "pretty bad".

On January 24 2016 02:49 disformation wrote:
Part 3
Well, I don't know how invested a town!kitaman is, so not sure about most of these points.
Can agree that his recent list had a lack of wow, impact or strong conclusions.


He doesn't know if the points are valid.
Kita's list lacks wow

On January 24 2016 02:49 disformation wrote:


Soo... overall these things start to add up. Like taken alone I don't think these points are like slamdunk scum, but considering that kitaman27 is apparently pretty damn good at this game, we probably won't get much slamdunk from him, should he indeed be scum.
Looking at his answers now, but I think at least a scum lean is warranted and I will consider voting him tomorrow.
(and/or use other measures you recommend in Part 4 )


And finally, after discrediting half the points of the case he agrees with me anyway. Because who cares.

As an alternative, I'll show you how townies (and real people) respond to a case like this:

On January 24 2016 00:47 Koshi wrote:
tldr: leave kitaman alive and congratulate him endgame with his superb mafia play.


sarcasm

On January 24 2016 00:59 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 00:47 Koshi wrote:
tldr: leave kitaman alive and congratulate him endgame with his superb mafia play.


I concur.


more sarcasm

On January 24 2016 01:51 CopCake wrote:
Palmar is awesome, his list of how to deal with Kita draw a huge smile on my face.


Thinks I'm awesome

ie: people who are real, see this case and kita's fail defense of it, and barely care. Disformation saw an opportunity to post a long waffling shitpost about nothing in particular while disagreeing with himself and giving kita a scumread that disfo never again cared about in history of the universe.

Disfo is 100% mafia.




Computer says mafia
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
January 29 2016 14:03 GMT
#4491
On January 29 2016 22:54 Koshi wrote:
Just read Keir his filter again. Dude has 0% chance to be mafia. Last time I was on drugs.

to be fair you're bad.

But on the other hand, I like you.

so idk
Computer says mafia
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 14:14 GMT
#4492
All my votes have been mafia. And for good sports I even vote for mafia days before day get lynched. #Truehipsterlife

D1 Onegu, Vivax
D2 kita, fefe,
D3 Onegu, sl
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 14:17 GMT
#4493
Rels filter is so angry. wow. Is he angry scum? Cuz so much anger is mostly only town.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 14:41 GMT
#4494
Also second portective role, if you are not a jailkeeper pls make sure rels is alive tomorrow.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 14:56 GMT
#4495
How can you not see sicklucker his filter is 100% mafia? Jeezus. Nothing is town.
I had a good night of sleep.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
January 29 2016 14:58 GMT
#4496
Never did he think 1 step further in his filter. Like never ever. And if he is town he can think 3 steps further.

Fucking confirmed mafia.
I had a good night of sleep.
sicklucker
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada16987 Posts
January 29 2016 16:27 GMT
#4497
On January 29 2016 19:56 Palmar wrote:
Does anyone not understand why I think disformation is mafia?


i do do you need me to explain it?
sicklucker
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada16987 Posts
January 29 2016 16:30 GMT
#4498
ok you already explained it. I was more thinking he was trying too hard to make robotic list posts on obvious or unimportant topics
sicklucker
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada16987 Posts
January 29 2016 16:32 GMT
#4499
On January 29 2016 23:58 Koshi wrote:
Never did he think 1 step further in his filter. Like never ever. And if he is town he can think 3 steps further.

Fucking confirmed mafia.


that usualy makes me town tbh. I think ahead as mafia... This is probably why you have a 100% accuracy of getting my alignment wrong in like 10 games together
Tictock
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States6052 Posts
January 29 2016 17:21 GMT
#4500
On January 29 2016 13:11 Koshi wrote:
For me there are only 4 options left for mafia and 2 really unlikely one.

tt, disfo, cc, sl

unlikely:
keir, rels


Why are Rels and Keir unlikely?

I'm really loosing faith in my read in you the more you go on about "SL has to be scum with Onegu" and stuff like this post without giving any reasoning to back it up.
I can take that responsibility.
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IEM Cologne 2025
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