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TL Mafia LXXII: Gaiden 2 - Page 3
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 04:53 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: This post makes Wave scum. Specifically, the text in bold. Wave comes back to the thread to see the popular scum-candidate JAT sitting on a wagon driven by Palmar. His read takes no consideration for JAT's actions this game. In fact, he says he respects Palmar's play enough on day 1 to sheep him without regard. Wave claims that he has gained some confidence in his play. If wave truly has gained confidence in his play (I.E. reads), then why is he letting Palmar, who may very well be mafia or just plain wrong about JAT, decide the lynch for him? Wave is blindly assuming that Palmar is town and correct without A) Assessing the lynch candidates motivations / actions and B) Looking at Palmar's push in and of itself. He doesn't even quote a post by Palmar and agree with the reasons. ##Vote: Wave JAT hits the nail on the head here. Wave's defense against this is basically "I'm better than this", which I find lazy. Regardless, Wave still fails to situate why he thinks Palmar's case is good. When Wave extrapolates upon how Palmar plays, he admits that Palmar's early reads are 'just 'cause' and may/may not be accurate. How can Wave seriously think JAT is his top scumread / top vote for the day if he: 1) Has not evaluated JAT's actions, or explained why Palmar's case is good 2) Knows that Palmar's early reads are often 'just cause' 3) Is not sure of Palmar's alignment? It makes no sense to me. Palmar may have caught Wave as scum day 1 in another game and he respects him, but this course of action is scummy regardless of how you package it. It's incredibly convenient if JAT flips town, and then Wave can take no responsibility for the lynch. All I want you to answer @WaveofShadow: Why is Palmar's case good. Not Rsoultin's, or anyone else's, but Palmar's case. What does Palmar say that is convincing and makes the case against JAT generate a "fairly decent read"? I don't really like this post about Wave by CC. I don't know if I think CC is mafia for it, but I'm closer than I was when I left which is not at all. I think what I don't like about it is that the whole thing, from the very first sentence on, speaks with absolution. This post /makes/ Wave mafia. If that's the case then what's the point of the question at the end at all? CC's mind is already made up on the matter, it just feels like it's thrown in there to "make the case complete" or whatever. Plus there's the whole "If CC LOOKS protown, CC is mafia" adage. I will give CC one thing though - Palmar's case on JAT /was/ unlikable. People agree with Palmar in that they don't like JAT, but as far as I know Palmar's reasoning for disliking JAT is his alone and the people who don't like JAT don't like him for their own reason. Except Wave. But does Wave saying that he likes Palmar's read /make/ Wave mafia? I'm not so sure. He could be town and just think Palmar is town and sheepworthy on D1. After all, Palmar /is/ known for good D1 reads, etc. Ultimately I'm going to say that I do NOT like this case and it has earned CC a trip to the top of my filter list once I catch up. I just wanted to get this out there because it seems pretty major compared with everything else I've read so far. Moving on. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 07:37 KelsierSC wrote: I don't buy the CC looks too good so he must be mafia. This is a thing. It's literally in his sig and he PLAYS around it AS mafia. Go read the QT from Nomination mafia (I think) where he mentions it several times after replacing in. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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VisceraEyes
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What do you think about my post about CC's case? Just remove anything that says anything about "looks too good to be town" and give me your opinion. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 08:09 justanothertownie wrote: Whatever. Fact is I am not mafia and I trust you to see this at some point even thoughI will not have much time for this game. I would be very disappointed if you didn't because you are more or less the only player on this site who can read me. :/ | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 10:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: does anyone else find this post weird by VE? This is in response to a couple of people asking me why I'm townreading JAT, which I answer like twice before in response to marv. On August 27 2015 00:01 VisceraEyes wrote: No, it's based on what I thought originally PLUS how he's responded to people on his wagon. I think his post to Trfel is in character regardless of his alignment, and I think how he's responded to Palmar's push (maybe not so much rsoultin's, but Palmar's for sure...maybe because rsoultin's point is stronger than Palmar's...) has felt pretty townie. He's capable of this play as mafia, but he's also capable of this play as town imo. On August 27 2015 00:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Given the bolded I find town to be more likely than mafia. I don't really like repeating myself, and the answers were literally 4 posts previous. Call it "annoyance at laziness" or "annoyance at illiteracy" or whatever you want. I'd like to hear what you found "weird" about it. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 22:41 KelsierSC wrote: honestly I don't really think much of it, I don't think being absolute or forceful is mafia indicative. If I say "you're mafia answer this question" it puts you under pressure and makes you respond. Yeah I can see that too. I just think mafia is more likely given my experience with him. I don't know, I'll update once I filterdive. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 08:07 Trfel wrote: Not sure if I want to lynch justanothertownie, but currently leaning towards no? Don't really have time to filter dive right now. I want to lynch Hopeless1der. ##vote Hopeless1der Leaning towards town on MoosyDoosy and VisceraEyes. On August 27 2015 17:59 Trfel wrote: Reads from Trfel! + Show Spoiler [Pointless Fluff] + Yes, the section of my post marked "Pointless Fluff" is entirely necessary. You must read it. I've been listening to this song a lot over the past few days. I like it a lot. This one too. They're good songs, listen to them. It'll improve your scumhunting. Anyway, I'm kind of sad that I'm mostly able to play when most people are sleeping. How boring. So I'll just make a fancy list post. Town Palmar + Show Spoiler + I don't have a very good record of reading Palmar in the past. But I'm still pretty confident that Palmar is town here for the way he's been driven and focused. He's provided insightful comments and I like his push on justanothertownie. His tone also feels relaxed. I know this doesn't make him town, as he is capable of having a relaxed tone as mafia, but in this game his tone is most natural when he's giving reads on (arguably) harder-to-read players, which feels much harder to fake than normal relaxed tone. marvellosity + Show Spoiler + Marvellosity is definitely capable of tricking me, but I feel he's likely town here. If he isn't, it should be more clear in a few days, anyway. Marvellosity feels more driven here than as mafia in Assassination Mafia, where he played well enough to avoid being lynched and have some thread presence, but was not above suspicion. Given how much he enjoys playing mafia, I wouldn't really expect him to increase his effort compared to that game. Town Lean MoosyDoosy + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2015 22:43 MoosyDoosy wrote: Yeah this. I don't really see much on JAT. If he's mafia, he'll still be mafia later in the day anyway. I think we should focus on Trfel rite now. On August 26 2015 22:46 MoosyDoosy wrote: These posts don't really make sense. Why does he want to talk about me (Trfel), when all he wants is an answer to my question? That's not something he can get while I'm not present. He seems to realize that discussing me at this time doesn't help with anything, and doesn't mention me for quite some time.I'd still like an answer to why he asked for an opinion on marv when there was literally almost nothing that marv had posted. I feel like it's getting punted to the side while people are trying to kill JAT. I don't find his interactions with WaveofShadow scummy. But this post: On August 26 2015 23:45 MoosyDoosy wrote: is all wrong. The majority of WaveofShadow's posts at this point were jokes. He never called rsoultin out, and jokes can't really be seen as having a direct manner. The only things he directly committed to are finding scum and voting for marvellosity (which clearly wasn't a hard commitment, as expected). This post doesn't make much sense. I would like an explanation from MoosyDoosy (tone doesn't align with direct manner and calling out rsoultin when the posts are jokes).His willingness to call out rsoul and his direct manner when he posts. tone reads basically Tone seems very relaxed and seems to show a town mindset. In general, his thought process and reads match and are sensible. KelsierSC + Show Spoiler + The downside is that KelsierSC is quite good as mafia. He showed this in Gaiden 1. I like his questioning to MoosyDoosy about his townread of WaveofShadow, but he drops it before reaching a real conclusion based on this. I'm fine with this read for now, anyway. Mr. Cheesecake + Show Spoiler + I'm sleepy. A lot of it's tone, and I don't feel like his reads are too constructed/clean/correct. Though this is a weak read. Null rsoultin + Show Spoiler + I refuse to be wrong on rsoultin. I can accomplish that by not giving a read. (Plus I'm sleepy, basically always think rsoultin is town, and don't think that rsoultin is a good lynch today even if I found a few things that made me suspicious)  Mafia Lean VisceraEyes + Show Spoiler + First he votes for WaveofShadow, and then decides to change his vote to MoosyDoosy based on how MoosyDoosy kept talking to WaveofShadow. On August 27 2015 00:34 VisceraEyes wrote: This isn't a convincing case at all. VisceraEyes starts out by saying that he thinks that MoosyDoosy is pocketing WaveofShadow, but this is reasonable from town, but he gets a bad feeling anyway. Then he says that he can see something that can be considered towny may be able to come from a mafia perspective. And then he says it's better than voting for someone who is AFK.Okay so I filtered Moosy, and the reason I thought he was one of the Wave pushers is because of the sheer number of times he mentions Wave's name, but it's in the context of "I want to hear from Wave" or "Game so hard w/o Wave" etc. Based on this, I think it's actually more likely that Wave is town and Moosy is like, appealing to him or something. Trying to slip him in his pocket. Only problem with that is that he and Wave are like, TLLOLOTDT buddies, so it's not unreasonable to think that he's doing this as town....I just get a really bad feeling off Moosy. The flip on marv. Ummmmmm.....I can see that from a mafia perspective. Especially if he's not super aware of Marv's meta, maybe his partners were like "WHOA BUDDY, BETTER TURN THAT SHIT AROUND" after he posted about lynching marv. Marv's right though, in a vacuum it seems townie. Eeehhhhhhh....I like it better than an AFK Wave vote anyway. Certainly better than a JAT vote. ##Unvote ##Vote: MoosyDoosy Which results in a vote on MoosyDoosy. VisceraEyes doesn't seem convinced by his own case. And he's downplaying his earlier vote on WaveofShadow, which felt really out of place anyway. I don't understand why he voted for WaveofShadow in the first place. The strength he places in his WaveofShadow read seems to vary a lot: On August 27 2015 00:10 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: WaveofShadow Beyond that, Moosy is kinda not taking a side, which I find super strange, and there are several people who have yet to even post. On August 27 2015 00:34 VisceraEyes wrote: [case on MoosyDoosy] Eeehhhhhhh....I like it better than an AFK Wave vote anyway. Certainly better than a JAT vote. ##Unvote ##Vote: MoosyDoosy On August 27 2015 00:41 VisceraEyes wrote: I didn't like Wave's entrance, worst in the thread besides marv's. Then he disappeared which I find to be extremely out of character for Wave. I'm interested to hear why you think I'm focusing around him so much though, I've spent WAY more posts trying to oppose a JAT lynch and appealing to marv and Palmar. On August 27 2015 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Wait wait wait, have you even READ my posts? I've had nearly an IDENTICAL thought process as you have based on your posts, and you're not ruling me out? Are you fucking mafia Wave?!?!? VisceraEyes transitions from voting for WaveofShadow to seemingly being surprised and not having considered that WaveofShadow could be mafia. Hopeless1der + Show Spoiler + He generally doesn't play as mafia. He was mafia last game, didn't play, and died. This game, he said he would play, confirmed, and then hasn't posted anything yet. justanothertownie + Show Spoiler + Not going to repeat everything that's been mentioned about him. But I find it very hard to get a read on him because it seems like justanothertownie is a player who is very self-confident and prides himself in always being right. Thus, when people disagree with him and push him all game, I can see him getting caught up arguing with them when it clearly isn't going anywhere, I can see him constantly insulting and throwing scum on people he later says are probably town, I can see him sort of playing like this. In the end, I'm torn. I think that his play is objectively bad, but I'm not sure if that makes him scum here. The biggest problem I have with him is that he simply isn't pushing his reads. Here's justanothertownie's filter with only the read progression (only including the main scum reads, excluding all of the stuff to rsoultin/Palmar due to previously mentioned reasons)
What I don't see is an actual push. He's said the same point about me (Trfel) many times (saying it's one of the best things in the thread), and people have disagreed. But he hasn't said much about the rest of my play. He hasn't commented on a single thing I've done being towny, but he doesn't seem convinced that anything I've done outside of that one post makes me scum. I don't see him really pushing WaveofShadow, either. He said that WaveofShadow might be the first mafia joining the push [on himself], but never said more (other than agreeing with Mr. Cheesecake's posts about him). Justanothertownie hasn't seemed very motivated at trying to convince people or push one of his scumreads. He hasn't even voted yet. It almost feels like he's too frustrated to lead an actual push himself, and is throwing some suspicion and waiting to vote with whatever people like. Which is a mafia-motivated mindset. Not making much progress on WaveofShadow, going to just go to bed. I don't really feel like I want to lynch justanothertownie right now, though that could change. Also, it's funny how nicely my reads list matches the player list XD This is pretty strange. How do I go from a town lean to a mafia lean based on things that happened BEFORE the post where you townread me? You can't even really say that "Oh I didn't know about those things until I filtered" because you were literally THERE when the stuff with Wave was going on. Yet at one point you townread me and later on your mafia read me. WTF? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
I'm really fighting an urge to instavote. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 23:00 justanothertownie wrote: Yes, that post evidently induces an urge to vote. Like I'm not crazy right? That's a blatant inconsistency between thoughts/actions and he then parks on a modkill. That's fucking scummy as shit right? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Go away, no one is talking to you scum. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
And mads gonna be mad. You mad your scumbuddy Trfel gonna get lynched instead of based town JAT? | ||
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VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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On August 27 2015 23:21 WaveofShadow wrote: I mean now I just wanna lynch JAT cause PJsalt. Wouldn't lynch moosy anymore, will check up on CC meta at some point but wouldn't lynch either today anyway. I guess Trfel is the other choice atm? VE's recent find is good but for whatever reason I'm not super convinced. Can't explain why. Also vivax asking after me in that weird way is really indicative of something in his play but now I forget what it is. I remember seeing it a game we played semi-recently and it helped me read him but bleh I mindmeld with you early game, you null read me. I find ACTUAL THREAD RELEVANT EVIDENCE that someone you've been calling mafia is ACTUALLY mafia. You're not convinced. When did you lose all respect for me entirely Wave? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 23:22 Palmar wrote: Good! Here's a really, really serious question to everyone in the game: WoS VE Vivax BF Deconduo CC JAT There is mafia, probably 2-3 in this group of players. If we remove JAT from this pool (just for the sake of conversation) who do we lynch? We lynch Trfel/CC and then once they both flip mafia we lynch you and win as town. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 23:26 Palmar wrote: Yeah but he got unreasonably mad that game. I have no real opinion on him. I just read deconduo's filter. I kinda wanna lynch him but I'm also just really mad he's playing like this, whatever his team is. I don't remember, did decon play like this back in the day? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
On August 27 2015 23:28 marvellosity wrote: A case can be convincing and come from the best, middling, or worst player and you can still feel unconvinced about it for unexplainable reasons. The quality of the player making the case isn't that relevant No but the quality of the content should fucking speak for itself. -.- | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
##Vote: Trfel | ||
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