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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:20 prplhz wrote: can't really demand much more from a townie than that he keeps active and boxerfred did just that, no idea what the problem is. lol He did NOT keep active. He was #1 mislynch for days and basically did jackshit until right before deadline today. Yes, yes I can demand more than that. | ||
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NaCl`y
131 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:16 Half the Sky wrote: I know JAT spotted a weakness in my posts which I did catch on to and I knew I'd have to step it up in 3-2 lylo otherwise a good town player could corner me. But if you had any additional input for me I'd appreciate it. Only issue is that I know dick all how to play framer, not much better at blue sniping either, I assume you just frame the scummy lurkers just like a DT should check the scummy lurkers but of course everyone checks differently.... >_< I had zero clue JAT was tracker. Ugh, fail. Generally the ideal strategy as mafia is to shoot the towniest people instead of trying to look for the blues or what have you since those shots could always backfire a la XXX mafia and shooting Rsoultin. Although this did cause mass hysteria it also severely would put you behind in terms of mislynches (which is the primary capital for mafia) if you are wrong. The whole aspect of mafia is preserving your capital so that you have wiggle room as the game progresses. This was fairly easy in this game and in retrospect I did notice a lack of push in a direction from you. There were lots of observations which made me gloss over you which is a good thing for you, however, in a game where people look more towny I think you need to develop on a set of mafia reads and start to push them harder so as you don't look too passive. You did have a set of mafia reads this game, I know, it's just in future that will come back to bite you if you are not more resolute on them. As for playing framer, it really depends on what kind of situation you are in. If you are widely town read then it always helps to frame scummy lurkers since they are by far and large the most obvious checks for a cop to make. If you are only slightly town read then it is up to you and you should maybe play it safe. Playing it safe is generally better anyway. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:21 justanothertownie wrote: lol He did NOT keep active. He was #1 mislynch for days and basically did jackshit until right before deadline today. Yes, yes I can demand more than that. You and marv being so harsh on him I am sure effected his motivation to post. Can say in an ideal world everybody should fight to the end but I think for new players especially if they are just getting constantly beat on they are more inclined to just give up. I am not saying boxer is faultless but we as town should have fostered a better environment for him to want to contribute. | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:21 justanothertownie wrote: lol He did NOT keep active. He was #1 mislynch for days and basically did jackshit until right before deadline today. Yes, yes I can demand more than that. he has 11 page filter and tons of text walls, he kept active and he had a lot of opinions on everything. boxerfred did enough that people should be able to read him town. | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:25 Mig wrote: You and marv being so harsh on him I am sure effected his motivation to post. Can say in an ideal world everybody should fight to the end but I think for new players especially if they are just getting constantly beat on they are more inclined to just give up. I am not saying boxer is faultless but we as town should have fostered a better environment for him to want to contribute. 100% | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:25 Mig wrote: You and marv being so harsh on him I am sure effected his motivation to post. Can say in an ideal world everybody should fight to the end but I think for new players especially if they are just getting constantly beat on they are more inclined to just give up. I am not saying boxer is faultless but we as town should have fostered a better environment for him to want to contribute. Not after how he treated me earlier - I was very lenient with him until he started taunting me for no fucking reason. And if you have another look at how marv and I pressured him we were actually pretty soft on him considering how much bullshit he spouted. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:26 prplhz wrote: he has 11 page filter and tons of text walls, he kept active and he had a lot of opinions on everything. boxerfred did enough that people should be able to read him town. Yes, if you got a mafia role pm. Anyways, I am going to sleep. Thank god this game is over. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:16 Half the Sky wrote: I know JAT spotted a weakness in my posts which I did catch on to and I knew I'd have to step it up in 3-2 lylo otherwise a good town player could corner me. But if you had any additional input for me I'd appreciate it. Only issue is that I know dick all how to play framer, not much better at blue sniping either, I assume you just frame the scummy lurkers just like a DT should check the scummy lurkers but of course everyone checks differently.... >_< I had zero clue JAT was tracker. Ugh, fail. I think blue hunting is a good skill to pick up but it usually comes pretty easily and most of the time it's not that important. I intentionally left the setup closed because I wanted people to think about other things (or use it as an excuse to start talking about things) So as a DISCLAIMER: I think killing good townies is far more important. Take this all with a grain of salt and this is purely my opinion on blue hunting. Again, NOT that important. Anyway let's say you want to blue hunt. By default you know who all 10 townies are, and you can expect 2-3 of them to be blue on average. One flipped n1 but I don't think you guys would've necessarily needed to kill him had yamato lived (although you were not involved up to this point). That one was of course simply the product of Artanis deciding to role claim for whatever reason, which I am still baffled about. I am also really baffled about NaCl'y counter-claiming him, which I think contributed nothing except wasting a bunch of time. Ignoring the aside I think you can pinpoint the blues as the players who react when others talk about roles and those whose reads change abruptly or who ask questions about particular players randomly when otherwise they would sit back and not do much. For example posts like these: On June 14 2015 08:05 VayneAuthority wrote: ##vote mig (occurred right after a daypost) On June 14 2015 08:15 justanothertownie wrote: What do you mean "wasn't actually a blue"? Did you have reason to assume he was blue? And why do you think we have a second role? should set off some alarm bells. In general from my experience townies who have rolled blue roles tend to sit back a lot and try not to draw too much attention to themselves. As scum they are really easy to find because usually they're the other set of players that are trying to downplay themselves. The only exception is veteran-type roles, and in this game you guys would've had a strongman to deal with any veteran suspicions, although the inclusion of the tracker balanced against that somewhat. | ||
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NaCl`y
131 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:28 justanothertownie wrote: Not after how he treated me earlier - I was very lenient with him until he started taunting me for no fucking reason. And if you have another look at how marv and I pressured him we were actually pretty soft on him considering how much bullshit he spouted. Since he flipped town and the game is over then you can categorically say that from his own opinion, none of it was bull shit. Or at least, he had reason to believe some of the things he did. I mean this in no disrespect to yourself Justanothertownie but sometimes, even if you think otherwise, you can come off as incredibly brash and argumentative and it is not conducive to helping people feel good and divulging their opinions. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:28 justanothertownie wrote: Not after how he treated me earlier - I was very lenient with him until he started taunting me for no fucking reason. And if you have another look at how marv and I pressured him we were actually pretty soft on him considering how much bullshit he spouted. him taunting you should have been an obvious town-tell how many new scum players do you think actually say some of the things boxer said this game? Some of his posts were walls of text, I can literally count the number of scum that do stuff like that on one hand and none of them play anymore. e: also he repeatedly said things with specific references to things, which scum have a very hard time doing because more often than not they are trying to frame a narrative to fit a particular opinion that they have faked | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
 But yes, this part: Ignoring the aside I think you can pinpoint the blues as the players who react when others talk about roles and those whose reads change abruptly or who ask questions about particular players randomly when otherwise they would sit back and not do much. ....now it makes sense. Thanks again. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:34 NaCl`y wrote: Since he flipped town and the game is over then you can categorically say that from his own opinion, none of it was bull shit. Or at least, he had reason to believe some of the things he did. I mean this in no disrespect to yourself Justanothertownie but sometimes, even if you think otherwise, you can come off as incredibly brash and argumentative and it is not conducive to helping people feel good and divulging their opinions. Yes, he was town. Doesn't make the bullshit any less bullshit. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:35 wherebugsgo wrote: him taunting you should have been an obvious town-tell how many new scum players do you think actually say some of the things boxer said this game? Some of his posts were walls of text, I can literally count the number of scum that do stuff like that on one hand and none of them play anymore. There are players who do it and since he is new you cannot know he wouldn't. Very flawed logic. Walls of text are also in no world alignment indicative. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:36 justanothertownie wrote: Yes, he was town. Doesn't make the bullshit any less bullshit. JAT what are you trying to do? Do you want people to validate your read of him? If you want to improve you should look at his posts and try to understand where you read him incorrectly. IMO it's actually pretty hard to find more obvious townies, but that's just my opinion. I'll give you some examples: Here's a post in which boxer defends himself early in the game. On June 07 2015 06:26 boxerfred wrote: He also reads me as scum - well AMA then, really don't want to make you think that. Since you refer to my last game for your statement, I'll say 2 things: a) 1 game of many to come is not indicative of how I play, neither as scum nor as town. It was my first game ever on TL mafia, even my first game ever in a forum. b) Can you please point out the parallels that you are seeing so scum boxerfred can get rid of them? Nah kidding. You don't need to explain the parallels to me as of now but before you start a train on me getting a mislynch, I want to have the reasoning behind it. Look at his tone, and the language of his response. He actually is inviting people to talk to him, and specifically offers things in defense of his previous game. He points out how he has only played one game and he actually jokes in this post. His attitude is very nonchalant. You would think that if he rolled scum it would take some serious guts to write like this. I don't even think I have the capability to write like that as scum and I have like 20x the experience of this dude. And then stuff like this: On June 08 2015 07:16 boxerfred wrote: ah this he voted me and I don't like people voting me. That made me go at him. I had prepared a piece on fuba, too because he jumped to help yamato. later I saw he pressured yamato too so I said "well fuck this go into yamato filter". but let's go through it one by one: What made you pick yamato over the others? - his vote on me Similarly with your VayneAuthority read, why does what he say make him mafia but not a towny who just dislikes the way Yamato77 played? - his appearance EoD compared with his very low post count. He posts seldomly but then drops by to say twice how fucked up yamato is? feels scummy. I would also like you to explain why you referenced all of your scum reads in accordance with Yamato77 flipping mafia before he did so. Ya sure. At this point I was voting yamato and I was quite sure he'd be scum. Following that theory, I try to find the person that I feel like made plays that may match it. If you think that was a TMI call, well can't help with that. You can ofc lynch me and then check out who started that bus on me (oh it's marv who I think is at least scummy). On June 08 2015 06:44 boxerfred wrote: Yes not even caring to answer Again, just ignore the content of his responses. His reads don't actually matter, and given his inexperience you don't need to know his reads to know his alignment. As a townie to read someone, particularly someone new like boxer all you should care about is motivation and perspective. What motivation does boxer have for picking fights with marv? Why would he bother responding to marv if he is scum, particularly in such a bold manner? Why would he choose to go point by point to explain himself to another player as scum? Do you really see that many scum players put so much effort into a post from someone that asks them to elucidate their reads and motivations? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:38 justanothertownie wrote: There are players who do it and since he is new you cannot know he wouldn't. Very flawed logic. Walls of text are also in no world alignment indicative. I don't know what to say if you actually believe this, you seem to be so tunneled on this that I don't think you're thinking objectively on the matter. Scum very rarely put in the type of effort and specificity that boxer did this game. His play was fine, and IMO actually very good given his experience. I personally would love to have players like him in games that I play. For people like you and marv who misread him, the onus is on you to figure out why you read him wrong. He did more than enough to prove himself and I have already shown that to you. If you can't accept that then you should reevaluate the way you think about other players. Also no, there are almost no players that do all of the things that I described. There are a select few mafia players who can maybe do one or two things that I mentioned but not all of them. You have to piece together everything, not just some things. You can't cherry-pick your way to reading someone. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
Good night. | ||
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NaCl`y
131 Posts
That one was of course simply the product of Artanis deciding to role claim for whatever reason, which I am still baffled about. I am also really baffled about NaCl'y counter-claiming him, which I think contributed nothing except wasting a bunch of time. I am not sure this is quite accurate though. Like you say, the Artanis[Xp]'s claim was entirely atrocious but he is perfectly capable of something like that as mafia. You could see from opinions in the thread that this was entirely possible and very well speculated. The claim not only helped clear up that Artanis[Xp] was town from his reactions (since as mafia he would almost certainly, like he said, back down or just afk from the game) but led to many revealing reactions. You say Yamato77 was lynched because he didn't fight back but his reaction was by far the worst out of the ones that I saw and his pointing out how obvious the crumbs were are not something that I would ever (in my opinion) see from a town Yamato77. His fighting back would be futile. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:47 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't know what to say if you actually believe this, you seem to be so tunneled on this that I don't think you're thinking objectively on the matter. Scum very rarely put in the type of effort and specificity that boxer did this game. His play was fine, and IMO actually very good given his experience. I personally would love to have players like him in games that I play. For people like you and marv who misread him, the onus is on you to figure out why you read him wrong. He did more than enough to prove himself and I have already shown that to you. If you can't accept that then you should reevaluate the way you think about other players. The onus is on him to not get fucking mislynched. Of course we should theoretically have been able to differentiate between awful townplay and scumplay but that does not mean that his play was any good. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On June 16 2015 09:47 justanothertownie wrote: Yes, I see scum players do it all the fucking time. And of course with the knowledge that he is town you can easily make a short case for that. We will have to agree to disagree here. Good night. I don't understand what you want to hear. You were wrong. If you want to not be wrong in the future, don't blame your own faults on another player. On June 16 2015 09:49 justanothertownie wrote: The onus is on him to not get fucking mislynched. Of course we should theoretically have been able to differentiate between awful townplay and scumplay but that does not mean that his play was any good. I understand you are upset, but again, if you want to improve, don't blame your own faults on another player. I am telling you boxer did not play badly in this game, and if you think so....well, then that's on you. You have so far failed to say what exactly about his play was awful. On June 16 2015 09:48 NaCl`y wrote: I am not sure this is quite accurate though. Like you say, the Artanis[Xp]'s claim was entirely atrocious but he is perfectly capable of something like that as mafia. You could see from opinions in the thread that this was entirely possible and very well speculated. The claim not only helped clear up that Artanis[Xp] was town from his reactions (since as mafia he would almost certainly, like he said, back down or just afk from the game) but led to many revealing reactions. You say Yamato77 was lynched because he didn't fight back but his reaction was by far the worst out of the ones that I saw and his pointing out how obvious the crumbs were are not something that I would ever (in my opinion) see from a town Yamato77. His fighting back would be futile. Yamato being bad at scum does not validate your counter claim. You may have thought then and think now that it was a good idea, but had yamato played well you guys would've lost on the spot. People were ready to lynch one of you and then in the case one of you flipped town they were ready to lynch the other. I don't have my notes on me but I actually predicted that some of the things yamato was saying would come back to bite him later, given how I know he doesn't really put that much effort in as scum. Again, don't conflate good results here with good play. I would say what both of you did pretty much ruined day 1 regardless of the actual result of the lynch. That pretty much showed in later days when town continued to have no clue how to find mafia, or for that matter, each other. | ||
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