On February 23 2015 02:59 Snarfs wrote: Is it all right if I take that newbie spot? It's been almost 2 years since I played so could use the practice. Also if I roll scum I should probably have a coach :p
Well this is weird, one of my last games was with you (in June 2012!) Been a hell of long time between drinks.
On February 24 2015 09:03 Snarfs wrote: So, not recognizing the following names:
3) Half the Sky 4) sicklucker 5) Tronak 7) _Tormented_ 9) The Shining 10) Eden1892 12) Damdred
I'm curious who the newnew players are and how much experience each of the listed people has. Should help me get an idea of what to expect as far as town/mafia capabilities are concerned.
Check the Office Mini Mafia, some those guys (Sicklucker, Eden1892) were in that game (still ongoing). PM game but is recent.
Just getting the ball rolling. You still haven't answered my question, what does it mean to you? To me it means nothing, hence I asked the question.
As for random lynch, over my dead body. We are statistically more likely to get town and more importantly it provides cover for scum to avoid scumhunting in Day 1. No point in wasting a whole day waiting for a lynch that gives us no information.
On February 24 2015 09:40 _Tormented_ wrote: Probulous is right, no sense wasting what will almost definitely be a town lynch. Most day 1s I have been a part of provide some information, but I imagine on a forum like this one the information will either be much greater or much more hidden.
From my experience, whilst voting patterns and lynching provides useful information, it is posting motivation and behaviour patterns that out scum. Thus the more we can get people to post, especially around who they think the mafia are and why, the more chance we have of lynching scum. This can start from day 1.
On February 24 2015 09:55 Damdred wrote: Interesting, you are really serious really soon. As you obviously missed the sarcasm. Obviously you have some thought on my little sentence so what is the stance on it.
Yeah, sometimes my sarcasm radar is a little off. How about this, your thoughts on Yamato's lack of response to my repeated questioning? In exchange, I'll try to lighten up a little
On February 24 2015 09:31 Probulous wrote: Precisely
Just getting the ball rolling. You still haven't answered my question, what does it mean to you? To me it means nothing, hence I asked the question.
As for random lynch, over my dead body. We are statistically more likely to get town and more importantly it provides cover for scum to avoid scumhunting in Day 1. No point in wasting a whole day waiting for a lynch that gives us no information.
On February 24 2015 09:40 _Tormented_ wrote: Probulous is right, no sense wasting what will almost definitely be a town lynch. Most day 1s I have been a part of provide some information, but I imagine on a forum like this one the information will either be much greater or much more hidden.
From my experience, whilst voting patterns and lynching provides useful information, it is posting motivation and behaviour patterns that out scum. Thus the more we can get people to post, especially around who they think the mafia are and why, the more chance we have of lynching scum. This can start from day 1.
With that in mind
##Vote WaveofShadow
Where you at?
Why are you voting WaveOfShadow?
Cause he was here earlier today and hasn't posted. Just a pressure move. Not sure if there is anyone who else who posted today but hasn't appeared in the thread.
On February 24 2015 09:03 Snarfs wrote: So, not recognizing the following names:
3) Half the Sky 4) sicklucker 5) Tronak 7) _Tormented_ 9) The Shining 10) Eden1892 12) Damdred
I'm curious who the newnew players are and how much experience each of the listed people has. Should help me get an idea of what to expect as far as town/mafia capabilities are concerned.
I've never played this game on TL and I am really bad at it in other venues
On February 24 2015 10:07 Damdred wrote: I give little cred yet to Yamato dodging so far. We will know soon if he's scum or not probably.
Why do you expect more when you don't know my experience for instance? Do you expect more because you know I'm town?
Also I think scum lynch rate is in the 33 or so percent actually a tad higher than rng I believe...
I mean, I expect more with your posting. So far so good. At least here you're not second guessing yourself. Be bold my friend. If you're scum, you'll out yourself. If you're town, you'll out yourself. The system works. much harder to find scum if people can be wishy-washy about everything.
As for the scum lynch rate not sure how that matters when you're discussing a random lynch. It's a moot point anyway.
On February 24 2015 09:31 Probulous wrote: Precisely
Just getting the ball rolling. You still haven't answered my question, what does it mean to you? To me it means nothing, hence I asked the question.
As for random lynch, over my dead body. We are statistically more likely to get town and more importantly it provides cover for scum to avoid scumhunting in Day 1. No point in wasting a whole day waiting for a lynch that gives us no information.
[citation needed]
On February 24 2015 09:48 Half the Sky wrote: So which cell are you Artanis?
Also how dirty is your mind going to get this game? Do I want to know?
yes let's get dirty this game
ROFL, what I meant was with 10 townies and 3 mafia, there is a much higher chance on lynching town if the lynch is completely randomised.
Eden, what makes you "bad" at this game?
I would argue that there is a higher chance of lynching town if it is NOT random, but then you would lose out on any information. The theory behind this is that the mafia know each other and the town do not (on average). This leads to mafia not only have a numbers advantage in that there is a higher chance that town get lynched, but they will also work together to absolutely make sure one of their own do not die day one. Granted I am sure they screw up from time to time and do get lynched day 1, but to say that there is a higher chance of lynching town at random, I believe that to be false.
On February 24 2015 10:18 Half the Sky wrote: So Eden wants to get dirty, hey Artanis, what do think of that?
In any case, as far as Prob being serious...I don't know him. I don't know whether people played more serious back in the day, assuming he's another old timer.
He's serious but he's not stiff. I don't sense any discomfort in his posts. He seems assertive/comfortable from what I read of his posts so he's probably town.
No it's not "old-timers", I'm just an asshole that's all.
On February 24 2015 10:35 Half the Sky wrote: I see Probulous. Curious how long have you been around TL?
A while. I signed up with the wings of liberty release. Maybe we should keep this stuff out of the thread. It's already getting long and full of shit. Partially my fault, will do better.
@Snarfs, you still around? Been reading your old games and damn son you got some skills. I still want your thoughts on what's going on, particularly this Yamato, Artanis business.
@Artanis, can you stop shitting up the thread with your fluff? Between you and Yamato it's going o be impossible to keep track of what's going on. Signed, grumpy old man.
On February 24 2015 10:35 Half the Sky wrote: I see Probulous. Curious how long have you been around TL?
A while. I signed up with the wings of liberty release. Maybe we should keep this stuff out of the thread. It's already getting long and full of shit. Partially my fault, will do better.
@Snarfs, you still around? Been reading your old games and damn son you got some skills. I still want your thoughts on what's going on, particularly this Yamato, Artanis business.
@Artanis, can you stop shitting up the thread with your fluff? Between you and Yamato it's going o be impossible to keep track of what's going on. Signed, grumpy old man.
Yea, I'm still here. Just wrapping up some work before heading home.
Yamato/Artanis looks like two old friends having a good joke back and forth. Not really alignment indicative, imo. Don't worry, I'll let you know if anything sticks out to me.
And for someone who was once in the running for "Best player never to win a game" claiming I got some skills is a nice compliment
ROFL, you're too kind, or an asshole, I can't decide
On February 24 2015 11:19 yamato77 wrote: ok artanis, you're off the hook for now
##unvote ##vote: _tormented_
Reasons please?
instead of me making a case at this point and people taking their stances on my reasoning, I'd rather people consider him independently of my own thoughts
On February 24 2015 11:13 _Tormented_ wrote: lol fine, here ya go before I have to leave work. Take it for what you will.
Player List 1) Probulous (filter) - town 2) Artanis[Xp] (filter) - town or overly aggressive mafia 3) Half the Sky (filter) - town 4) sicklucker (filter) - town 5) Tronak (filter) - no clue 6) Yamato77 (filter) - mafia 7) _Tormented_ (filter) - town 8) Node (filter) - no clue 9) The Shining (filter) - no clue 10) Eden1892 (filter) - either mafia or he is just being obtuse for no reason 11) WaveofShadow (filter) - no clue 12) Damdred (filter) - town 13) snarfs (filter) - no clue
Lol?
As far as I can tell, the combination of calling Sicklucker town when he hasn't posted, and calling Yamato scum is what made him vote.
On February 24 2015 09:03 Snarfs wrote: So, not recognizing the following names:
3) Half the Sky 4) sicklucker 5) Tronak 7) _Tormented_ 9) The Shining 10) Eden1892 12) Damdred
I'm curious who the newnew players are and how much experience each of the listed people has. Should help me get an idea of what to expect as far as town/mafia capabilities are concerned.
I've never played this game on TL and I am really bad at it in other venues
On February 24 2015 10:43 Damdred wrote: Lol tormented there is no mayor.
Really ask now. Also yam is good shot at...town. discuss while I'm gone
True, but I would have liked to see what he said to the question. lol :p
Both actively looking for responses to try and out scum. Especially the first one picking up that Eden posted almost identically to how Damdred started (which I called out).
Positive intent.
On February 24 2015 11:17 _Tormented_ wrote: sorry meant that town for hts and a no clue for sucklucker
On February 24 2015 09:03 Snarfs wrote: So, not recognizing the following names:
3) Half the Sky - Pretty good for 5 games played 4) sicklucker -Best player ever 5) Tronak - No idea probably new 7) _Tormented_ - No idea probably new 9) The Shining - A real new player 10) Eden1892 - Great town terrible mafia 12) Damdred- Great town terrible mafia
I'm curious who the newnew players are and how much experience each of the listed people has. Should help me get an idea of what to expect as far as town/mafia capabilities are concerned.
Your first post is a quote with nothing in it? Oh shit, you deleted some names and added your thoughts. Missed that first time round. Just looked like you quoted but added nothing.
##Vote Damdred First up he starts real wishy-washy, sure it's early game but you are accountable for your posts.
On February 24 2015 09:48 Damdred wrote: I would so sheep you artanis, best mayor ever. I am a relative newb expect little from me, except I rekt scum. Also rng is out the window, we lynch scum today
I've explained before why that first post is scummy. OK, early game, give the guy a break.Then out of nowhere comes this
On February 24 2015 10:37 Damdred wrote: Hts I think Eden is Scum. You didagree
On February 24 2015 10:50 Half the Sky wrote: Damdred you also were in Titanic with us. Why do you think Eden is scum?
Which to me is a reasonable response from HTS. Especially since everything seems to be based on the fact that Eden is happy? Like what kind of reasoning is that? If there are other reason I'd like to hear them but Damdred never answered the question. Then instead of really pushing Eden to contribute more he just random switches to HTS.
On February 24 2015 11:40 Damdred wrote: Hts is scum btw I think. Tormented might of made a mistake. Hts is scum rhough
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
OK we get a little more explanation about Eden even then its soft as shit. The sort of thing that scum thrives on.We get sweet fuck all about HTS. The guy has no case for why HTS or Eden really, are mafia but he is quite happy to spout it about the thread and when asked to explain gives no reasoning. Classic scum scare tactics. Then when someone, who I assume is reasonably experienced (Sorry if that offends you Wave), goes in a different direction, Damred straight up tech-switches again.
On February 24 2015 11:48 Damdred wrote: Cool stuff wave. Anyway I'll give Hts some more time but its a gut read on her so far. That's what he thinks of us
For those that want to know what searing insight Wave provided for this road-to-damascus transformation (ok, that was harsh), here it is.
On February 24 2015 11:40 Damdred wrote: Hts is scum btw I think. Tormented might of made a mistake. Hts is scum rhough
Might have. ##vote: damdred
A vote. He gets pressured and wilts. Instead of providing some explanation as to why he thinks HTS is scum, or perhaps trying to convince the rest of us to look into Eden and HTS, he simply gives up. Much easier to stay out of the spotlight and cast some suspicion around.
TLDR: Damdred starts by trying to lower expectations, calls Eden scum with little reasoning, calls HTS scum with even less and then backs off when given just a little pressure. Why would scum do this, well it provides nice cover if either of these two are up for a lynch without having to stick your neck out.
I called you reasonably experienced, I haven't done a lot of research of on you yet so maybe you are actually very experienced. You never know, people get pissed about stupid stuff.
I know it's a text wall but it's my thoughts right now.
On February 24 2015 11:14 Damdred wrote: How is Eden having fun exactly Hts? Why do you say that? Also I wasn't in that game at that point.
I'm glad I checked back in obviously still on phone so have to break it up. Obviously I did answer Hts question about Eden, that I wasn't in the game at the point of Eden being alive as I replaced in after he died.
But you didn't explain what your case was against Eden. All I can find is you thinking that the random-lynch thing was a town distraction. I get it you have some sort of super-secret-scum-radar but the rest of us don't and we need to be convinced. This
On February 24 2015 12:58 Damdred wrote: I don't need to interact with someone to decide if they are scum or not. They just need to talk in the thread and I read filters and make cases I don't drop cases this early in the game just give gut or feel reads. Backing off of Hts is meh but she's not here.
is not good enough. How exactly are we supposed to learn anything about you, if your way of playing is to just cast out your suspicions and then waltz off into the distance when someone asks you about them.
Confession time, my post on Damred was premature and I knew at the time. But it seems to have worked in a sense. At least he is posting more and being a little more proactive. After my initial case dropped he pleaded for more time to make his case. That his reads at that point in time were purely meta based and so not yet ready. This seems completely fair to me. So what has he done since then.
Damred's Case Against Eden It's all about the meta-game. Damred's initial case + Show Spoiler +
Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now
What do you want me to do exactly I don't enjoy using meta especially hours into a game and show you how Eden usually has like 5 pages of filter is constantly pushing the thread forward. The having fun excuse is a bad one because he started Linux mafia the same way seemingly having fun before he got nailed, if you look in new years eve mafia you see the same thing. But all we have here is that this Eden isn't spamming or trying to make plays like in horn of Africa mafia.
For instance Eden, if Marvs tone is off and he's not doing Marv things he's scum. Your scum game is pretty apparent over time. You are a pretty easy town read and when read can tell your scum a part from your town. You are missing some of your carefree jumping everywhere and trying to make a play. Its not enough for a vote and its more of a gut meta read which is early indeed.
I do not think that you and HTS can be on a scum team right at this moment for a couple reasons not really looking for a team if I think either of you are scummy at this point its separate of each other but HTS has an odd reaction i'll talk about briefly in a second.
Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
Not exactly an improvement but ok there must be something in the works right? Well no, what we get is this. + Show Spoiler +
Though Eden bothers me a ton, really aloof of the thread only taking shots from the sideline lacks follow up on earlier things. Suddenly I want to lynch Eden.,,
Eden is passive and sniping from the sidelines, lacking follow up. This is Damred's best post as far as I can tell. So what is the motivation here? He has pleaded for time to make a case, he's got that, and as far as I can tell this is all he has but he happy to lynch off of it. Sounds a lot like a meta case to me. Damred is not interested in pushing cases, he just wants the heat off of himself. When Eden pushes him to actually put some work into his suspicions he gets these responses + Show Spoiler +
Seriously eden, last night I explained my misgivings on you and hts. You asked I answered, after I answered wave took over. You haven't really responded to that still. You reentered the thread called for policy lynch didn't act on it moved on to picking on node. Nowback to ksc. You just aren't trying to figure things out but have the appearance at this point
People can check out your filter and come to their own conclussions. I post my thoughts. And people can fact check you know that's how I work. Which makes this a super defensive post. Actually you do have to defend yourself and when you compare this tone wise length wise and content wise it's way different than your town. When I say wave took over you disappeared after I answered you. Your reads are lacking for you as kel pointed out though.
Nope not dumb I've given you two posts that were concise and talked about your play here. You wanted us to look at your mafia games to compare here which isn't what we need to do, you lack follow up on a shot ton of things. I've pointed out several. You lack a clear push just settling on tormented even though you are clearly slumming hts slot. Which is possible to be mafia granted. And this isn't about some associative read with hts
Well Damred please show me these magical posts. I know I write text walls but at least you can follow my thought process.
Now I know that Damred has been pushing HTS/KSC harder. I am looking into that case, but for me his "case" on Eden seals the deal. Surely if you're town you have two goals, number one find scum, number 2 don't get lynched. If you are under the pump for being too passive with your reads and spreading suspicion around without building a case, you build that case. If you really think Eden is scum, you run that shit hard until people get on board and convince people to lynch them. If you aren't sure, you stop casting suspicion around as all that does is provide cover for scum. If you think HTS/KSc is a better target, you build that case and advocate for their lynch.
Now if you happen to be scum, you're number one priority is to avoid the rope, you can give sweet fuck all priority to finding scum. What you need is people to look elsewhere. Your focus becomes moving the target of suspicion to someone else so who cares if you post a case. So maybe you back off Eden a little, focus more on someone else, but you just can't help adding a bit of negativity where possible. Because hey, who knows who might be up for a lynch come EOD.
TLDR: Damred has no interest in presenting a coherent argument. His focus is not finding scum and convincing us to lynch them. According to his own posting he makes god-tier scum-wrecking cases and what we have is "passivity and sniping". If that is true then why is he not interested in presenting one that nails Eden to the wall but is still happy to lynch him? Doesn't sound like town play to me.
On February 24 2015 09:25 Snarfs wrote: Okay, I see some other games with some of these other guys as well. And Tronak said already that it's his/her first mafia game ever so it looks like I'm covered in this regard, no need to continue down the rabbit hole.
Is this the point where someone proposes an RNG lynch?
This was really early in the game, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd like to point out that this is actually really scummy. Beyond an RNG lynch being an awful idea for reasons already stated, there's also bit of a deflection here -- Snarfs isn't going to propose a lynch, "someone" is. Nevermind that he's the first one to actually bring it up.
Snarfs also just posted a wall of text without actually saying much of anything. Yeah, there are some reads in there, but considering there are a couple of people that he'd lynch "pretty happily", there's nothing concrete. Just some feels without conclusions and a distinct lack of an actual case or vote.
Based on that, I'm going to park at ##Vote: Snarfs for now.
On February 24 2015 15:53 Damdred wrote: I never threw any shit honestly I think Hts is scum, Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
There are always two sides of giving someone a chance they give you more evidence to help secure a lynch, or they come in and proove they are town.
HTS is a very capable town player, sometimes she gets tricked but still a good player. Very capable of looking town with original thoughts.
So why can't their be town motivation in making sure I don't get tunneled on something hours into a game when Hts hasn't even broken a page quite yet, bit has said some questionable things.
I have no issues with people backing off a read, but you can't keep saying you think people are "potential scum" or have said "questionable things" without actually putting some substance behind it. Make a case! Scum doesn't care about a few people maybe being iffy about them, they care about hard cases that put them in the spotlight.
you seemingly haven't read the whole thread or only skimmed as I answered why I think both are scummy. This is interesting post
OMGUS harder, why don't you?
It's a little annoying how one of the default responses to criticism is "did you even READ?" I read your filter. You've quoted none of the people you say are suspicious, you haven't engaged any of them directly, and you're straight. A key tell for a mafia is indecisiveness, and what people are picking up on isn't that you're backing off on your reads, it's that they were barely there to begin with. It's as if they were practically set up just to be backed off of later, or inconsequential enough that you wouldn't have to follow through. Here's what I'm talking about:
On February 24 2015 13:04 Damdred wrote: though pr is most interesting person in the thread
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
Now, I want to make it clear that I don't think you're scum. Yet. (a blatant OMGUS isn't helping) But I do think your posts have done little more than gum up the thread. It's one thing to call my post "interesting" and start to get people thinking about me. It's another to actually say what I did was scummy and why.
RNG was so pure. This post bleeds red to me
Something about the sequence here reads "let me make several arguments for why you're mafia and then say that I don't suspect you but leave the door open for doing so later"
Mostly it's because my belief in Snarfs being mafia is significantly stronger.+ Show Spoiler +
I don't believe that someone as active as Damdred early on that attracts as much attention as he has is likely to be scum. I feel that we're much better off early on putting pressure on people that are hesitant to post. Yes, it's possible to post a lot and be scum, but town benefits a lot more at this point from forcing those that aren't posting to respond -- Damdred's already given us plenty to work with as time passes. However, I also think he could also be doing a much better job of actually hunting scum. (For one thing, when the threads get as long as they do as quickly as they do in this forum, you'd better believe quotes are an important tool if you want people to listen to you. Don't depend on others to draw the conclusions you have.)
Which brings me to Snarfs: He's content to pop up and comment on what's going on, but constantly asking people what they think of other people isn't actually much of a contribution. What does he actually think about anybody other than me? His big post seems substantial, but what's backing it up? Again, he says he'd be "pretty happy" to lynch either The Shining or sicklucker, but flash forward a day and there's still nothing else on those two. Like, it costs nothing to throw your vote around. Put your money where your mouth is.
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 03:16 Tronak wrote:
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
ok, do it once, I can give a pass with a decent-sounding answer
do it TWICE? no way
who do you actually scumread if all of your would-be cases turn into "I don't actually read him mafia yet"?
Hi, have you seen my posts on snarfs? Do you see where my vote is sitting right now?+ Show Spoiler +
And if you'd be willing to call Tronak scum based on what we've seen so far, be my guest. I'm not. My hope is that he'll see the pressure and step up to the plate, but if he doesn't, well, my vote can certainly be changed.
On February 25 2015 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm not going to lie, I have zero clue what is going on in thread right now. I don't know who is a suspect, who looks scummy to whom. This hasn't been a particularly productive day so I'm going to attempt to re-read later tonight to see if I pick up on anything.
It's because people are throwing out accusations without backing them up with evidence. It just fucks up the thread.
"Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged" If he concluded you were mafia would that change things?
On February 25 2015 11:36 Damdred wrote: Your post made me chuckle. Nothing you wrote makes me scum at all, it only means you dislike hoe i do things or the way I'm trying to drive a conversations. Most of my cases and convincing usually occurs after filter diving and deciding who I want to lynch. You make it seem like I need to have everything figures out when we almost have a full day for things to develop.
No, just that if you are going to cast suspicion about, you should have some good reasons for it.
On February 25 2015 11:37 Snarfs wrote:I think the main premiss in your case against Damdred is flawed. Town isn't the team that needs to make up cases in order to win the game.
Who said anything about "making up" cases? How exactly is soft-pushing people helpful?
On February 25 2015 11:37 Snarfs wrote:I think the main premiss in your case against Damdred is flawed. Town isn't the team that needs to make up cases in order to win the game.
Who said anything about "making up" cases? How exactly is soft-pushing people helpful?
It gives us insight into his thought process as the game goes on, so if we see it shift suddenly without reason we can nail him for it.
I don't follow. If he suddenly posts a fantastic case or if he changes target?
On February 25 2015 07:33 yamato77 wrote: I think ksc might be mafia. I remember him being obstinate as town but not altogether unwilling to participate. He was much more forthcoming in the game I played with him.
I assume this is why the
On February 25 2015 11:45 yamato77 wrote: ##unvote ##vote: kelsiersc
On February 24 2015 15:00 Snarfs wrote: I was suspicious of Damdred for not really commenting on Tormented's filter. However, he said he was going to leave about two hours ago now to go to bed. Then stayed. Seems pretty towny to me. I added some more on Damdred at the bottom of this post as I was going through filters.
Snarfs, this is bad and you should feel bad. The decision to check the thread says sweet fuck all about alignment.
On February 25 2015 06:30 sicklucker wrote: Dandred you dont find it weird how his opening is saying hes found 4 mafia to see whos listening? Then when its you who asks he thinks your mafia? It was literally a thing he did to see who was town. How can he reach the conclusion your mafia. Especially when your the easiest town read in the game atm.
I don't follow this logic at all. As far as I can tell KSC just wanted to see who would react, not that a reaction was alignment indicative?
On February 25 2015 06:31 Eden1892 wrote: I think HTS replaced out because she's mafia, now to go read the thread for people who probably aren't mafia due to that
Its acualy a good read. I have gotten hts to replaceout of a previous game because I tunneled her eden knows this so thats probably where he got his read from. She really does not like being under pressure as either alignment. She kind of falls apart as mafia.
On February 25 2015 06:43 sicklucker wrote: Like when I was her mafia partner she was so fucking pissed at holyflare for tunneling her read that obs qt. She cracked
Just cause someone replaces doesn't mean they are mafia. Regardless of previous games.
On February 25 2015 06:15 sicklucker wrote: And ksc is scummy for wanting to lynch two towns. (One that didnt do anything..) And two newbs
Just cause someone wants to lynch you and someone you think is green doesn't make them scum?
On February 24 2015 15:00 Snarfs wrote: I was suspicious of Damdred for not really commenting on Tormented's filter. However, he said he was going to leave about two hours ago now to go to bed. Then stayed. Seems pretty towny to me. I added some more on Damdred at the bottom of this post as I was going through filters.
Snarfs, this is bad and you should feel bad. The decision to check the thread says sweet fuck all about alignment.
It is a low-quality but very sincere read IMO. I think it is a pretty townie thought process, cause I know when I'm town I'm looking for stuff like that, and as mafia I'm looking not to hand out bad townreads that I might want to walk back later. If they're partners then that goes away, but I think Damdred is town, so I'm not really putting any weight on the possibility
I get that. I just expect more from Snarfs. So far we have a town read on Damdred, a push then back-off on Node. It's not the Snarfs I remember. He is never a prolific poster but he is insightful and thinks carefully about what he posts. A careless mistake like that is uncharacteristic. When he does post it is normally for the throat. Haven't seen that yet.
On February 26 2015 05:50 WaveofShadow wrote: Actually, a bunch of my town read are on snarfs looking at that vote count, I feel OK with it. ##vote: snarfs
On February 25 2015 11:33 Probulous wrote: "Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged" If he concluded you were mafia would that change things?
I agree we need to see more from him.
Eh, it would probably depend on the analysis. Obviously I'd fight it, but it would at least spark discussion, which usually leads to some sort of information or committal, which is always good. Whereas when he says I'm town all I can really do is say "k" and move on.
Node has said nothing. He basically jumped on Snarfs for nothing and then left his vote there all game. When pushed his only reasoning is that Snarfs somehow took the easy way out? The logic makes no sense because maybe, just maybe Snarfs actually thought he was town. I really don't like this post at all, especially since it is the last one from Node and we have no other analysis from him at all. Like no other players whatsoever. He mentions a couple of "null" reads but that's all.
Man things have changed then. Seems way too easy for scum to just pull out some half-arsed town reads and then sheep them on a mislynch. Hey let's just abdicate responsibility for our vote shall we. Though you would probably have to defend your town reads if it was a mislynch, but that is way easier than scum-hunting.
On February 24 2015 15:53 Damdred wrote: I never threw any shit honestly I think Hts is scum, Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
There are always two sides of giving someone a chance they give you more evidence to help secure a lynch, or they come in and proove they are town.
HTS is a very capable town player, sometimes she gets tricked but still a good player. Very capable of looking town with original thoughts.
So why can't their be town motivation in making sure I don't get tunneled on something hours into a game when Hts hasn't even broken a page quite yet, bit has said some questionable things.
I have no issues with people backing off a read, but you can't keep saying you think people are "potential scum" or have said "questionable things" without actually putting some substance behind it. Make a case! Scum doesn't care about a few people maybe being iffy about them, they care about hard cases that put them in the spotlight.
you seemingly haven't read the whole thread or only skimmed as I answered why I think both are scummy. This is interesting post
OMGUS harder, why don't you?
It's a little annoying how one of the default responses to criticism is "did you even READ?" I read your filter. You've quoted none of the people you say are suspicious, you haven't engaged any of them directly, and you're straight. A key tell for a mafia is indecisiveness, and what people are picking up on isn't that you're backing off on your reads, it's that they were barely there to begin with. It's as if they were practically set up just to be backed off of later, or inconsequential enough that you wouldn't have to follow through. Here's what I'm talking about:
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
Now, I want to make it clear that I don't think you're scum. Yet. (a blatant OMGUS isn't helping) But I do think your posts have done little more than gum up the thread. It's one thing to call my post "interesting" and start to get people thinking about me. It's another to actually say what I did was scummy and why.
SECOND: In the following post, he completely misrepresents Tronak, then says he just has a null read on him but if he doesn't do anything he's scum.
"Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious."
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
Node's summary of Tronak's list is the following: "Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
Here's what Tronak actually says: myself, yamato, and artanis feel scummy
I believe Node is purposely trying to shed Tronak in a poor light so that he can justify a lynch on him should the sentiment sway that way.
THIRD: This is the post that turned me back around after my attempt at looking at his previous games. He's talking about me, and keep in mind I know I'm town, but he shouldn't.
If Node was town, how does he go from "this guy is my number 1 mafia read" to "this guy's actions could completely be explained by mafia, but if I see more of it I might consider him town"?
His actual quote: "Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged. But I like to see actual analysis, and more of it on other people is likely to sway me."
On February 24 2015 09:25 Snarfs wrote: Okay, I see some other games with some of these other guys as well. And Tronak said already that it's his/her first mafia game ever so it looks like I'm covered in this regard, no need to continue down the rabbit hole.
Is this the point where someone proposes an RNG lynch?
This was really early in the game, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd like to point out that this is actually really scummy. Beyond an RNG lynch being an awful idea for reasons already stated, there's also bit of a deflection here -- Snarfs isn't going to propose a lynch, "someone" is. Nevermind that he's the first one to actually bring it up.
Snarfs also just posted a wall of text without actually saying much of anything. Yeah, there are some reads in there, but considering there are a couple of people that he'd lynch "pretty happily", there's nothing concrete. Just some feels without conclusions and a distinct lack of an actual case or vote.
Based on that, I'm going to park at ##Vote: Snarfs for now.
On February 24 2015 15:53 Damdred wrote: I never threw any shit honestly I think Hts is scum, Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
There are always two sides of giving someone a chance they give you more evidence to help secure a lynch, or they come in and proove they are town.
HTS is a very capable town player, sometimes she gets tricked but still a good player. Very capable of looking town with original thoughts.
So why can't their be town motivation in making sure I don't get tunneled on something hours into a game when Hts hasn't even broken a page quite yet, bit has said some questionable things.
I have no issues with people backing off a read, but you can't keep saying you think people are "potential scum" or have said "questionable things" without actually putting some substance behind it. Make a case! Scum doesn't care about a few people maybe being iffy about them, they care about hard cases that put them in the spotlight.
you seemingly haven't read the whole thread or only skimmed as I answered why I think both are scummy. This is interesting post
OMGUS harder, why don't you?
It's a little annoying how one of the default responses to criticism is "did you even READ?" I read your filter. You've quoted none of the people you say are suspicious, you haven't engaged any of them directly, and you're straight. A key tell for a mafia is indecisiveness, and what people are picking up on isn't that you're backing off on your reads, it's that they were barely there to begin with. It's as if they were practically set up just to be backed off of later, or inconsequential enough that you wouldn't have to follow through. Here's what I'm talking about:
On February 24 2015 13:04 Damdred wrote: though pr is most interesting person in the thread
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
Now, I want to make it clear that I don't think you're scum. Yet. (a blatant OMGUS isn't helping) But I do think your posts have done little more than gum up the thread. It's one thing to call my post "interesting" and start to get people thinking about me. It's another to actually say what I did was scummy and why.
RNG was so pure. This post bleeds red to me
Something about the sequence here reads "let me make several arguments for why you're mafia and then say that I don't suspect you but leave the door open for doing so later"
Mostly it's because my belief in Snarfs being mafia is significantly stronger.+ Show Spoiler +
I don't believe that someone as active as Damdred early on that attracts as much attention as he has is likely to be scum. I feel that we're much better off early on putting pressure on people that are hesitant to post. Yes, it's possible to post a lot and be scum, but town benefits a lot more at this point from forcing those that aren't posting to respond -- Damdred's already given us plenty to work with as time passes. However, I also think he could also be doing a much better job of actually hunting scum. (For one thing, when the threads get as long as they do as quickly as they do in this forum, you'd better believe quotes are an important tool if you want people to listen to you. Don't depend on others to draw the conclusions you have.)
Which brings me to Snarfs: He's content to pop up and comment on what's going on, but constantly asking people what they think of other people isn't actually much of a contribution. What does he actually think about anybody other than me? His big post seems substantial, but what's backing it up? Again, he says he'd be "pretty happy" to lynch either The Shining or sicklucker, but flash forward a day and there's still nothing else on those two. Like, it costs nothing to throw your vote around. Put your money where your mouth is.
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 03:16 Tronak wrote:
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
ok, do it once, I can give a pass with a decent-sounding answer
do it TWICE? no way
who do you actually scumread if all of your would-be cases turn into "I don't actually read him mafia yet"?
Hi, have you seen my posts on snarfs? Do you see where my vote is sitting right now?+ Show Spoiler +
And if you'd be willing to call Tronak scum based on what we've seen so far, be my guest. I'm not. My hope is that he'll see the pressure and step up to the plate, but if he doesn't, well, my vote can certainly be changed.
Explain please
Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged. But I like to see actual analysis, and more of it on other people is likely to sway me.
None of this makes sense to me from a town perspective. My only explanation is that he's mafia.
##Vote: Node
Meh. I know I'd never say anything as terrible as 'I don't think you're scum yet' as scum. Trying to work up the motivation to re-read. I probably should too since I won't be around for deadline.
Which is essentially you're so scummy you can't be scum.
On February 26 2015 03:15 yamato77 wrote: I like damdred's posts about Snarfs. Dude has been seriously fishy this whole game.
For one, I'm pretty sure Node is town. For two, the way he's sort of just landed on Kels makes me highly suspicious. If someone has to bait you into voting them, it looks bad.
Kelsier looks a lot better now than when I initially voted him. Snarfs looks worse. Artanis looks better, even if he's ununnecessarily fixated on me. Tormented is at least trying, to an extent.
Right now I kinda want to lynch Snarfs. Ever since his first big post, I've had him down as solidly scummy but I've sat on it and waited. He never really got better.
##Vote: Snarfs
I might be cool with this. At the very least I like the post.
Who else is scummy yamato? A bunch of your reads are lining up with mine atm
Which is just a sheep post of a town read.
Again since Node has posted sweet fuck all why do you think he is town?
On February 26 2015 07:05 yamato77 wrote: Prob are you opposed to the Snarfs lynch?
Still making up my mind.
Right now trying to get a handle of SL because I hate his style of posting but again that doesn't make him mafia. Reading Horn of Africa to compare his posting here to his town posting style and see if it matches.
On February 25 2015 06:00 sicklucker wrote: Snarfs had the best opening. Dandred is posting too much to be mafia. I would sheep dandred
From HoA
On February 04 2015 09:27 sicklucker wrote: From reading like 3 pages
Marv - town for posting eden town for presuring koshi town for saying he wont do anything
KSC Case
On February 25 2015 08:53 KelsierSC wrote: ... so i'm like ok maybe i'm not sure. let's step back , he's a fool. let's see what he does. Since I stepped back we get...Nothing. He doesn't give a shit about this. Just two shit tier town reads.
On February 26 2015 02:04 KelsierSC wrote: So you have already explained why you had a "townie" opener. And drew attention to "towny " posts but artanis says you like to be unreadable. Is artanis lying.about your play then?
On February 26 2015 02:06 sicklucker wrote: Thats his opinion its not a terrible one but I dont think its correct.
So artanis is lying about your play. Why?
So from the above SL style seems pretty consistent to me. Talk shit, be straight and generally don't give a fuck. But it's meta which for me is pretty useless unless I played with person. KSC, is there anything else to your case?
On February 26 2015 03:12 sicklucker wrote: Basically artanis is saying I try as hard when im scum which is true. He questions your scum read because im not really trying
Firstly, this isn't what Artanis said at all.
The second thing is that the way SL twisted it was to make Artanis look better? Like if someone lies about me why am I trying to help cover their lie. probably because most people were town reading Artanis, or he knows Artanis is town and doesn't want to call him mafia.
This is what Artanis said
"Why does scum sicklucker not give as much of a shit as town sicklucker in this position? From what I recall him saying he actively tries to be unreadable by not giving as much of a shit in general as town when it isn't necessary."
Which sounds the same as SL not trying when he is town? Am I missing something KSC?
On February 24 2015 15:53 Damdred wrote: I never threw any shit honestly I think Hts is scum, Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
There are always two sides of giving someone a chance they give you more evidence to help secure a lynch, or they come in and proove they are town.
HTS is a very capable town player, sometimes she gets tricked but still a good player. Very capable of looking town with original thoughts.
So why can't their be town motivation in making sure I don't get tunneled on something hours into a game when Hts hasn't even broken a page quite yet, bit has said some questionable things.
I have no issues with people backing off a read, but you can't keep saying you think people are "potential scum" or have said "questionable things" without actually putting some substance behind it. Make a case! Scum doesn't care about a few people maybe being iffy about them, they care about hard cases that put them in the spotlight.
you seemingly haven't read the whole thread or only skimmed as I answered why I think both are scummy. This is interesting post
OMGUS harder, why don't you?
It's a little annoying how one of the default responses to criticism is "did you even READ?" I read your filter. You've quoted none of the people you say are suspicious, you haven't engaged any of them directly, and you're straight. A key tell for a mafia is indecisiveness, and what people are picking up on isn't that you're backing off on your reads, it's that they were barely there to begin with. It's as if they were practically set up just to be backed off of later, or inconsequential enough that you wouldn't have to follow through. Here's what I'm talking about:
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
Now, I want to make it clear that I don't think you're scum. Yet. (a blatant OMGUS isn't helping) But I do think your posts have done little more than gum up the thread. It's one thing to call my post "interesting" and start to get people thinking about me. It's another to actually say what I did was scummy and why.
SECOND: In the following post, he completely misrepresents Tronak, then says he just has a null read on him but if he doesn't do anything he's scum.
"Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious."
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
Node's summary of Tronak's list is the following: "Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
Here's what Tronak actually says: myself, yamato, and artanis feel scummy
I believe Node is purposely trying to shed Tronak in a poor light so that he can justify a lynch on him should the sentiment sway that way.
THIRD: This is the post that turned me back around after my attempt at looking at his previous games. He's talking about me, and keep in mind I know I'm town, but he shouldn't.
If Node was town, how does he go from "this guy is my number 1 mafia read" to "this guy's actions could completely be explained by mafia, but if I see more of it I might consider him town"?
His actual quote: "Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged. But I like to see actual analysis, and more of it on other people is likely to sway me."
On February 24 2015 09:25 Snarfs wrote: Okay, I see some other games with some of these other guys as well. And Tronak said already that it's his/her first mafia game ever so it looks like I'm covered in this regard, no need to continue down the rabbit hole.
Is this the point where someone proposes an RNG lynch?
This was really early in the game, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'd like to point out that this is actually really scummy. Beyond an RNG lynch being an awful idea for reasons already stated, there's also bit of a deflection here -- Snarfs isn't going to propose a lynch, "someone" is. Nevermind that he's the first one to actually bring it up.
Snarfs also just posted a wall of text without actually saying much of anything. Yeah, there are some reads in there, but considering there are a couple of people that he'd lynch "pretty happily", there's nothing concrete. Just some feels without conclusions and a distinct lack of an actual case or vote.
Based on that, I'm going to park at ##Vote: Snarfs for now.
On February 24 2015 15:53 Damdred wrote: I never threw any shit honestly I think Hts is scum, Eden is potential scum based off of meta at this point.
There are always two sides of giving someone a chance they give you more evidence to help secure a lynch, or they come in and proove they are town.
HTS is a very capable town player, sometimes she gets tricked but still a good player. Very capable of looking town with original thoughts.
So why can't their be town motivation in making sure I don't get tunneled on something hours into a game when Hts hasn't even broken a page quite yet, bit has said some questionable things.
I have no issues with people backing off a read, but you can't keep saying you think people are "potential scum" or have said "questionable things" without actually putting some substance behind it. Make a case! Scum doesn't care about a few people maybe being iffy about them, they care about hard cases that put them in the spotlight.
you seemingly haven't read the whole thread or only skimmed as I answered why I think both are scummy. This is interesting post
OMGUS harder, why don't you?
It's a little annoying how one of the default responses to criticism is "did you even READ?" I read your filter. You've quoted none of the people you say are suspicious, you haven't engaged any of them directly, and you're straight. A key tell for a mafia is indecisiveness, and what people are picking up on isn't that you're backing off on your reads, it's that they were barely there to begin with. It's as if they were practically set up just to be backed off of later, or inconsequential enough that you wouldn't have to follow through. Here's what I'm talking about:
On February 24 2015 13:04 Damdred wrote: though pr is most interesting person in the thread
On February 24 2015 11:44 Damdred wrote: Eden you feel so disconnected and out of it right now. I'm really really worrying you rolled scum with hts
Now, I want to make it clear that I don't think you're scum. Yet. (a blatant OMGUS isn't helping) But I do think your posts have done little more than gum up the thread. It's one thing to call my post "interesting" and start to get people thinking about me. It's another to actually say what I did was scummy and why.
RNG was so pure. This post bleeds red to me
Something about the sequence here reads "let me make several arguments for why you're mafia and then say that I don't suspect you but leave the door open for doing so later"
Mostly it's because my belief in Snarfs being mafia is significantly stronger.+ Show Spoiler +
I don't believe that someone as active as Damdred early on that attracts as much attention as he has is likely to be scum. I feel that we're much better off early on putting pressure on people that are hesitant to post. Yes, it's possible to post a lot and be scum, but town benefits a lot more at this point from forcing those that aren't posting to respond -- Damdred's already given us plenty to work with as time passes. However, I also think he could also be doing a much better job of actually hunting scum. (For one thing, when the threads get as long as they do as quickly as they do in this forum, you'd better believe quotes are an important tool if you want people to listen to you. Don't depend on others to draw the conclusions you have.)
Which brings me to Snarfs: He's content to pop up and comment on what's going on, but constantly asking people what they think of other people isn't actually much of a contribution. What does he actually think about anybody other than me? His big post seems substantial, but what's backing it up? Again, he says he'd be "pretty happy" to lynch either The Shining or sicklucker, but flash forward a day and there's still nothing else on those two. Like, it costs nothing to throw your vote around. Put your money where your mouth is.
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
On February 25 2015 06:23 WaveofShadow wrote: You had to post 6 times For that?
Hi this is my posting style deal witth it
We might deal with it by lynching you. Can we not turn this into a spamfest? Seriously, I don't have the time to deal with hundreds of pointless posts a day.
And speaking of pointless posts, let's have a quick gander at what Tronak has had to say so far.
On February 24 2015 22:21 Tronak wrote: After re-reading all, Going to throw some open questions and my thinkings about them:
1) Snarfs, why would you suggest a RNG voting being town and a veteran player? Either was a simple way to make fellow townies show up them selves or in my newbie opinion should be read as a scummy post.
2) Artanis' opening: why would you introduce Mayors voting if game setup is given? Opening joke? Mayor is usually a starting point and you didnt read game setup? This follows another game? If not, I would read your post as mafia. If yes, is
-Yamato quickly (1min later) votes for lyching Artanis . And Mayor joke appears again. Why? I can only read 2 mafias trying to create confusion, but I would be happy to hear what you both think about this.
3) Tormented throws his bomb list. Want to think, Tormented thought similar to me (above) and when pressured by Artanis to give his reads made a quick list pointing out both names (Artanis and Yamato). Would mafia do this? I dont think so, it was too early from my point of view, too much to lose.
4) Probulous accuses Damdred: I like Probolous' read and arguments given against Damdred so much that when I first read his post all my senses were focused on analysing Damdred's following posts. Up to this point, I think Probolous wins the mini batle and Damdred will need to give futher arguments to convince me about his alignment.
5) Yamato appears again to switch completly thread's focus and focus on Tormented again giving good arguments based on filtered history. Snarfs looks like aproving this switch very fast and Artanis pushes this line further in his last post.
If Yamato/Snarf or Artanis were mafia, would they like to lynch a "tormented" townie and use this line to save a suspected Damdred? Sure!
Conclusion: despite all guides about Mafia I have read suggest scum wouldn't be so active in the first hours of the game, from my point of view so far, all makes me think that at least 1 or 2 scums must be between the list of names mentioned in this post (with no exceptions). However I can't arrive to single point any of them and the innocents should also be very valuable for the town. I see the names not mentioned in this post as townies so far. So, I hope your answers for my wall of text clear my way.
"Here's a bunch of things that have happened so far. Some of these people might be scum, but they all feel like town."
On February 25 2015 03:16 Tronak wrote:
On February 25 2015 02:57 Snarfs wrote: Tronak, you left Node off your list. Your thoughts please?
Actually some points: -He pointed out before me the scummy sense of your RNG voting post. Since I had same, "maybe" unexperienced, reading while i was reading your post, my first impression was to feel aligned with him, therefore should be townie to my eyes. -About voting on you so directly = since he posted that his reason was just a "grain of salt" I suspect is just a move to push you = townie again to get information about you. - Recently he pushes agressively Damdred which I can only applaud since I look forward for more information about this last one. (to my eyes this should be townie post again, or.... could be mafia move to save Tormented, in case he is mafia).
"Here's what Node has done. He might be town, but he might also be mafia."
Overall, I don't have a read on Tronak yet, but that's because he hasn't actually said anything. I'm willing to cut him some slack for being totally new, but if he doesn't step it up soon and get some posts that go above sounding desperate to contribute, I'm going to get a lot more suspicious.
On February 25 2015 02:55 Snarfs wrote: Once I get to work I'll probably dig through some of Node's recent games. I don't know much about his play except that he's been around for awhile.
Following up a bit, I'm less convinced that Node's opener indicates he is mafia. Keep in mind these were games from ~2.5 years ago, but if he hasn't played mafia in between then there's no indication that he would have changed so it's all I've got to go on.
From Death Note mafia (Node as town detective): + Show Spoiler +
On September 01 2012 09:19 Node wrote: I'm going to vote for BlackMamba. Here's why:
One scum almost always takes it upon themselves to make large posts early on and establish themselves as very very "pro-town". They love buzzwords like "anti-town" and other stupid things like that. I just can't see any reason for a townie to spend that much time, early in the game, establishing their townieness unless there is a mayoral election or something like that.
This is such an incredibly wrong and scummy statement that it's unbelievable. Think about what it means for just a second. Mamba is saying that going out of your way to establish your townieness is unnecessary -- even scummy. It's even one of the first rules in Ver's guide: establish your own innocence in order to create a good atmospere and make it easier to find scum. (forgive me for not citing it directly at this moment; my resources are limited)
Now, why would he want to enforce this? Only scum could possibly want to establish an atmosphere where showing your innocence is a bad thing.
There's also the insinuation that claiming self-aware miller is a poor choice, the questionable case against Hapa (dismissed with an "I wasn't-really-trying" excuse), and the statement that voting for someone doing as little as Palmar would actually be a bad idea. All of this comes together to show somebody that isn't trying to establish a pro-town atmosphere, is pushing the wrong targets, and is definitely scum.
##vote BlackMamba24
What I read here is a very pressure-oriented tactic. It feels very similar to how he opened up against me. He focuses in on a single player and doesn't waver at all in his assertion that this player must be mafia because of a single thing they said. He also doesn't drop any town reads.
On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets.
Now, kush on the other hand has been talking a lot about absolutely nothing. Seeing as he considers his vote on Shady absolutely inconsequential so far ("My vote for Shady had nothing to do with a scumread of any sort"), he's sure spent an awful lot of time discussing it. Weirdly enough, he justifies his current vote by saying he doesn't have any scum reads, yet has also thrown a few FoS's around. So, we see his vote that doesn't matter (yet) on someone he doesn't care about, instead of actually pushing the rather perfunctory cases he's made so far, possibly just so he can look like he's actually contributing.
So, I'll actually put my vote where my mouth is. ##vote kushm4sta
On October 01 2012 14:30 Z-BosoN wrote: ##FoS Coagulation Shitty one-liners and refuses to explain anything. Either very arrogant or wants to pretend he is actually contributing.
Bolded for emphasis. This is pretty much exactly how Coagulation plays every game. If he's town, in a day or two he'll come up with a handful of proper scum reads to tunnel for the rest of the game, about half of which will be correct.
Contrast this with Node's opener as mafia. Here he's making sure to comment on something else going on in the thread. He's dropping town reads to fit in. "Hmm Shady Sands is probably not scum. He's silly but not scummy... hmm maybe we can look at someone else and here's a decent reason why." And then he continues to comment on some other pieces of information.
This right here is the kind of thing I like to see. (and not just because it concludes I'm town)
ok, do it once, I can give a pass with a decent-sounding answer
do it TWICE? no way
who do you actually scumread if all of your would-be cases turn into "I don't actually read him mafia yet"?
Hi, have you seen my posts on snarfs? Do you see where my vote is sitting right now?+ Show Spoiler +
And if you'd be willing to call Tronak scum based on what we've seen so far, be my guest. I'm not. My hope is that he'll see the pressure and step up to the plate, but if he doesn't, well, my vote can certainly be changed.
Explain please
Snarfs has nothing to lose by "concluding" that I'm town if he is mafia, so my vote remains unchanged. But I like to see actual analysis, and more of it on other people is likely to sway me.
None of this makes sense to me from a town perspective. My only explanation is that he's mafia.
##Vote: Node
Meh. I know I'd never say anything as terrible as 'I don't think you're scum yet' as scum. Trying to work up the motivation to re-read. I probably should too since I won't be around for deadline.
Which is essentially you're so scummy you can't be scum.
On February 26 2015 03:15 yamato77 wrote: I like damdred's posts about Snarfs. Dude has been seriously fishy this whole game.
For one, I'm pretty sure Node is town. For two, the way he's sort of just landed on Kels makes me highly suspicious. If someone has to bait you into voting them, it looks bad.
Kelsier looks a lot better now than when I initially voted him. Snarfs looks worse. Artanis looks better, even if he's ununnecessarily fixated on me. Tormented is at least trying, to an extent.
Right now I kinda want to lynch Snarfs. Ever since his first big post, I've had him down as solidly scummy but I've sat on it and waited. He never really got better.
##Vote: Snarfs
I might be cool with this. At the very least I like the post.
Who else is scummy yamato? A bunch of your reads are lining up with mine atm
Which is just a sheep post of a town read.
Again since Node has posted sweet fuck all why do you think he is town?
On February 26 2015 07:44 KelsierSC wrote: Furthermore when I questioned him about artanis he said this.
On February 26 2015 03:12 sicklucker wrote: Basically artanis is saying I try as hard when im scum which is true. He questions your scum read because im not really trying
Firstly, this isn't what Artanis said at all.
The second thing is that the way SL twisted it was to make Artanis look better? Like if someone lies about me why am I trying to help cover their lie. probably because most people were town reading Artanis, or he knows Artanis is town and doesn't want to call him mafia.
This is what Artanis said
"Why does scum sicklucker not give as much of a shit as town sicklucker in this position? From what I recall him saying he actively tries to be unreadable by not giving as much of a shit in general as town when it isn't necessary."
Which sounds the same as SL not trying when he is town? Am I missing something KSC?
it doesn't sound the same.
he said he tries to be unreadable.. so why does SL make pains to point to a post that he says is "the best post/very towny"
Yeah OK I get that. It still relies on SL understanding what Artanis was intending and then twisting it to make Artanis look better which benefits SL because the thread thought Artanis was town at the time. Tenuous.
I think the fact he is nowhere to be seen is far worse.
On February 26 2015 08:05 KelsierSC wrote: I think wave is town if that is of interest to anyone
reply
to
my
case
I don't think sheeping someone when you are confused is scum sided.
Dunno, I just like him I guess.
His interaction with damdred early on felt pretty good.
What about the part where he says he has trouble distinguishing between newbie players not playing well and scum, and the part where all his votes and suspects this game besides Damdred have been newbies he hasn't bothered to dig into
yeh well i'm waiting for an answer to that part.
You're not going to get one because everyone kept ignoring/shitting on my case until he felt confident he could just afk for the rest of d1
This guy is doing jack shit to figure out the game. He's been "lost" for like a full fucking day now and hasn't done anything to not be lost. He's just sheeping an easy lynch on a new(ish) player he doesn't even explicitly suspect, and before that, even though he admits he has a blind spot for new players vs mafia, he just votes a new player doing newbie things and calls him scum without bothering to dig into whether or not he's actually scum.
I get what you're saying. The fact he is happy to just blatantly sheep his town-reads and then provides sweet fuck all reasoning for his town reads can mean only one thing. He just doesn't care and wants to do as little as possible. Every-time this game has got interesting he has AFK to "go-read some more" because stuff was too hard but then comes back with nothing.
On February 26 2015 08:16 Probulous wrote: ##Vote WaveofShadow
Answer the question.
he's not going to be here
wtf are you doing?
I don't like a Snarfs lynch, he is active trying and willing to be wrong. Artanis is spammy as hell but so are others and he has been pushing his tormented case all game. He is at least active and trying to find scum.
Wave has done absolutely nothing all game despite being asked for it. Many times. He wasn't a lynch target so he just AFKs. Classic scum.
On February 26 2015 08:16 Probulous wrote: ##Vote WaveofShadow
Answer the question.
he's not going to be here
wtf are you doing?
I don't like a Snarfs lynch, he is active trying and willing to be wrong. Artanis is spammy as hell but so are others and he has been pushing his tormented case all game. He is at least active and trying to find scum.
Wave has done absolutely nothing all game despite being asked for it. Many times. He wasn't a lynch target so he just AFKs. Classic scum.
He didn't just AFK, he has a fucking job and a family
dude wtf
Right, sorry man. I'm not trying to be personal. I don't know what his personal circumstances are.
Fact remains though, even without answering my question he has provided nothing to this thread despite saying multiple times he would go away and think about things.
On February 26 2015 08:29 Damdred wrote: ##unvote ##Vote wave Let's do this rd end masculine words have swayed my heart of stone
I'm still waiting on these
On February 24 2015 12:58 Damdred wrote: And any amount of research into any recent game will find I totally destroyed the scum team in a few of them and have a case for case of the year yay... I read filters and make cases I don't drop cases this early in the game just give gut or feel reads..
On February 26 2015 07:30 _Tormented_ wrote: Sigh...that post does seem rather towny. I do agree with your opinion of artanis, but I believe someone posted that he usually does tunnel someone they think is scum. So the fact that he provided very little else to the entire D1 could possibly be explained with that.
I just really dislike that I need to go back and read to figure out who he thinks is scum. If he was tunneling I'm pretty sure I'd know off the top of my head. I think it was yamato?
Okay, I've made up my mind. You're scum.
There's no way you're reading the thread if you don't know who I've been going after all game long.
/agree
I like Snarfs, as said before, he results interesting to exist in my learning curve.
However, is impossible anyone reading half Artanis's post would miss his tunneling on Tormented.
On February 26 2015 08:45 KelsierSC wrote: I wasn't quoting you snarfs.
Tronak said he likes the lynch on you, agrees with artanis.
yet now he's voting wave.
I never said I liked the lynch on Snarf. I have always said I find him interesting as a player to learn from (totally egoist point of view nad not "find a mafia" related i got to admit), thats why i'd save him over Wave.
Geez they just come crawling out of the woodwork don't they. I'll vote wave cause I want to learn from the other guy ?????
On February 26 2015 08:53 Tronak wrote: I never said I liked the lynch on Snarf. I have always said I find him interesting as a player to learn from (totally egoist point of view nad not "find a mafia" related i got to admit), thats why i'd save him over Wave.
On February 26 2015 09:08 KelsierSC wrote: Eden yamato team is real
Which makes Snarfs???
I mean Yamato was pushing for his lynch and Eden was pushing against it, which would suggest a town Snarfs to me. But you want to shoot him to clear things up for tomorrow?
Taking a look at the way the Wave lynch happened I think mafia got lucky. It was my vote which made Wave a legitimate target and the wagon gained speed from there. Wave was safe as houses with no-one doing anything until I changed my vote then in the space of 10 minutes (10:29-10:40) four people jumped onto the wagon. See + Show Spoiler +
Snarfs tied it up and Shining hammered the lynch but it is reasonable for Snarfs to push the other wagon and Shining jumped in too late to change the lynch targets. Anyway by this point the wagon was rolling strong anyway. I don't think Eden is mafia and besides his vote didn't push the wagon along, it was mine and the others that joined him. I made a major fuck up but my reasons are in thread. Even so Wave was at 2 votes when Snarfs had 4 and Artanis 2. The wagon really got going when Damred, tormented and Tronak came on board.
Damred's vote was a consolidation vote and he moved from Snarfs due to his legacy post. Literally this
On February 26 2015 08:29 Damdred wrote: ##unvote ##Vote waveLet's do this rd end masculine words have swayed my heart of stone
Which doesn't mention my vote 13 minutes earlier. Odd since Artanis and Snarfs were the lead vote contenders until my vote tied up Artanis and Wave and Eden's passionate cry for assistance didn't convince him earlier. Whatever, he hasn't provided the brilliant analysis he promised and has managed to lie low since I stopped pushing him. We lynched town cause he didn't participate so I am loathe to lynch on broken promises again. He clearly isn't in anyone else's sights so moving on. To be honest I'm tired of reading his filter.
So that leave's _Tormented_ and Tronak. Just perfect, the newbies. Tormented I can't tell if it is mafia or just blatant newb. Take these posts for example
On February 26 2015 07:53 _Tormented_ wrote: ##unvote ##Vote Artanis I agree about snarf's post and I agree with his lynch, even if nothing will come of it.
versus
On February 26 2015 07:56 _Tormented_ wrote: I voted him originally for his post against Node that seemed a pretty big stretch to me, along with not helping find any scum besides that post. I actually liked his recent post with his actual reads, but that is just me. I could just as easily be wrong.
like three minutes later. He says bad stuff but he is completely open about it. I hate to admit it but Tronak is the same. I thought I had nailed him with his reasoning for voting for Wave
I never said I liked the lynch on Snarf. I have always said I find him interesting as a player to learn from (totally egoist point of view nad not "find a mafia" related i got to admit), thats why i'd save him over Wave
which is just about the worst reason you could have to vote for someone. You aren't voting for them because you think they are mafia but because you like how the other guy plays. If this was the only time he specifically mentioned Snarfs play it would be blatant attempt to find a reason to vote and I would lynch him so fast but he has actually mentioned this a couple times before.
(iii) Scarfs: null about him with big fear of losing what I find so far a very usefull player for my learning.
I like Snarfs, as said before, he results interesting to exist in my learning curve. However, is impossible anyone reading half Artanis's post would miss his tunneling on Tormented. How can you explain that Snarfs?
I just don't see Tronak thinking that far ahead.
Which means my two hours spent trying to work out what happened comes down to Damred again. It's past midnight here and I'm just done with this. I'll try and be here before day-break. I'll take a look at Snarfs and his side of the voting then.
Please post your thoughts, hopefully some of this was useful. I especially want to hear from Node, who has also disappeared from the thread.
On February 26 2015 09:26 Probulous wrote: OK going AFK. Might pop back in a couple hours otherwise see you at daybreak with some thoughts about how this went down.
why didn't you switch btw. anyway i'm going to sleep
I wanted to switch to Tronak. No chance of that happening. Not enough time to work out whether it was a last minute bus or hammering a town lynch. Obviously turned out to be number 2 but see my text wall for more information.
BTW next lynch is at 11:00 on Sunday Oz time so I may be unable to attend. I'll post my thoughts when I can. Weekend mafia is a bitch. PS the irony of this is not lost on me.
KSc, I didn't think Snarfs was mafia. All I said was his play was different. Not different to his town play. He has certainly been less clear than usual but that doesn't make him mafia.
And no there was no time for another wagon on Tronak. There were two minutes remaining with only about four or five of us posting. Jumping off at that point would have ended up lynching Snarfs.
As for why scum would be on Wave and not Snarfs if Snarfs is town, well Wave was town. Pushing one town lynch over another seems a 50/50 split. There are three scum there could quite likely be two on the Snarfs voting. I particularly think Node is suspicious given he votes Snarfs for no reason and then disappears. We'll have to see what he says when he returns.
On February 26 2015 22:39 Tronak wrote: Probolous you admitted your self, that you were the one pushing Wave's wagon first. And your vote was indeed what made me think "ok i can save Snarfs + someone else is pushing Eden's case (which at this point I was already considering seriously)".
I will explain my line of arguments that drived me to vote for Wave further (having lunch while I read you, and i'll need some quotes). Meanwhile and to complete your analysis, that I just read and find very interesting and better that your "oh look shoot this scum newbie"), why don't you refresh me why did you vote Wave? aren't you as suspicious as me? I mean you look more suspicious to me at this point (before diving in you filter).
I wanted to shoot you because when pushed your reason for voting for Wave was to keep Snarfs around to "teach' you. Call it lynch excitement, it sounded like scum trying to come up with a reason to vote (one way or the other).
My reasons for voting Wave were quite simple. 1) Eden was shouting about his case on Wave so I took a look, it seemed OK so I looked closer at Wave's posting. 2) I really don't like blatant sheeping as I feel it abdicates responsibility for scum-hunting. I called Wave out on it. 3) Eden explained that sheeping your town reads is now pretty normal but that you would be pressed on them, so I checked Wave's filter for who he thought was town and why. He basically called yamato town in like his third post and that was it. Ok fine, he has a gut feel for yamato but Node? His reasoning made no sense. So I pushed him on it. 4) Obviously he AFK'd for reasons but it looked suspicious as hell to me. Especially when he had been constantly saying he would return to the thread to provide something but never did.
Like I said, clearly I was wrong but I thought I was on to something. The lynches at the time were Snarfs and Artanis who I didn't want to lynch and Wave looked really dodge for disappearing.
On February 27 2015 06:29 Probulous wrote: Skimmed so far.
KSc, I didn't think Snarfs was mafia. All I said was his play was different. Not different to his town play. He has certainly been less clear than usual but that doesn't make him mafia.
And no there was no time for another wagon on Tronak. There were two minutes remaining with only about four or five of us posting. Jumping off at that point would have ended up lynching Snarfs.
As for why scum would be on Wave and not Snarfs if Snarfs is town, well Wave was town. Pushing one town lynch over another seems a 50/50 split. There are three scum there could quite likely be two on the Snarfs voting. I particularly think Node is suspicious given he votes Snarfs for no reason and then disappears. We'll have to see what he says when he returns.
but if you're town read of him is based on him being insightful and careful with his posting, how does him being active and willing to be wrong make him town?
OK you're misunderstanding what I was originally saying. I was not calling him town in that first post, I just said his posting style when we played years ago was one of careful consideration. It's different this game but that doesn't make him mafia, or town. I thought that was clear when I posted this later
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Damn you Tronak.
We got scum on this wagon people.
I read this as town realizing too late that it's a lynch between two town. If you're mafia, why do you even bother saying anything at all?
Kelsier wrote: plus the reason he scum read snarf was because as town he was "insightful and thinks carefully about his post" but now he thinks snarf is town because he is "active and willing to be wrong"
I also think town is more likely to contradict themselves. Especially in a scenario where he probably could have just jumped on my lynch given the aforementioned scumread.
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
Who would ask this? you switch or not switch, but don't waste your supposed few time in asking if its too late. It was indeed too late to wagon on me, but it wasn't too late maybe for him to abandon his vote on Wave and shoot me.
Trust me I would have.I was thinking and typing at the same time. I thought there might be an option to switch but realised just trying to convince people you were scrum would take too long.
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Had a long day at work figured before I went into anything else I would look at the final vote count and post some thoughts. The first vote is the official vote count where we ended with the 100% information that we have from the flip.
From this vote it is highly probable that both Eden and Yamato are both town (a part from my earlier reads) which makes the vote look like this
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
(i'm putting in spoiler tags for readability purposes)
Personal Reads Incoming:
I think that the vote was between two towns at this junction, Snarf left a reads post that convinced me even if it did not convince anyone else. There was not that much movement in the wagons at the time besides consolidation. Snarf voted to save himself which isn't alignment indicative granted. I still think the legacy post sways me a bit its obvious he was the lynch up to that point and wave had 0 momentum up to the final hour so no reason for mafia to give us any sort of information going into it.
I also think that there is a good possibility that Kel is town in this scenario. He looked really good heading into the eod and put in a ton of work questioning people and pressuring people at points.
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Shining had a huge let down day one, but his somewhat catchup posts were ok. I'm leaning town on him but I don't think i'm ready to give him a full force town read but I think its more likely between two towns that a town would hammer in that situation.
SL has a high chance of being mafia with how his voting went I believe. He was here at EoD was useless and used his vote by throwing it away instead of helping the lynch. His vote by itself stands out pretty highly to me
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
This leaves me with Tormented, Tronak, Node, Artanis and Probulous
Tormented I think is townish at this point, his post on snarfs goes against the grain at that point and his followup explanation was pretty good. His posts at EoD weren't bad either to me.
Probulous has been a bit useless besides when hes talking about me granted, wave pointed this out but I think that what analysis he did do to me and his post during the night on the votes was pretty town so he is in a town pile.
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
This leaves me with a pool of Artanis, Tronak and Node.
Tronak had some decent posts during the night, hes more null for me currently. But I think some posts look towny
Artanis has a really good shot at being scum, all day he thought that Yamato looked really bad and scummy but he decided to vote with his scum read and then after he voted he decided that Yamatos filter looked decent. He was somewhat useless today just focusing on tormented and yamato for the general portion of the day before deciding to vote with said scum read and suddenly reversing the read even when Yamato had been playing the same way the whole game.
Node is probably the last scum, h was extremely useless all day. He was extremely defensive whenever he was confronted with not doing things in the thread. AFK'd his vote without any sort of followup or any new information taken into account whenever he was here, and just has decided to do shit all and be useless.
Currently, WaveofShadow is set to be lynched. Day 1 ends in at 00:00 GMT (+00:00).
Remember, voting is Mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
This is the final visual representation of where my thoughts are currently.
Any questions or want anything fleshed out more just ask and i'll talk more about it.
[/green][/green][/green] Damn, this is how you do vote analysis. I take back my snarky bit from last night. I was convinced there was scum on that wagon and you were the strongest candidate in my mind. So if this is true, then I pushed a wagon which had no scum on it?
I'd be down with a Node lynch if he doesn't contribute today. Will take a closer look at Artanis, I like his open style but pushing the newbie so hard all day on day 1 is an easy target for mafia.
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Damn you Tronak.
We got scum on this wagon people.
I read this as town realizing too late that it's a lynch between two town. If you're mafia, why do you even bother saying anything at all?
Kelsier wrote: plus the reason he scum read snarf was because as town he was "insightful and thinks carefully about his post" but now he thinks snarf is town because he is "active and willing to be wrong"
I also think town is more likely to contradict themselves. Especially in a scenario where he probably could have just jumped on my lynch given the aforementioned scumread.
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
Who would ask this? you switch or not switch, but don't waste your supposed few time in asking if its too late. It was indeed too late to wagon on me, but it wasn't too late maybe for him to abandon his vote on Wave and shoot me.
Trust me I would have.I was thinking and typing at the same time. I thought there might be an option to switch but realised just trying to convince people you were scrum would take too long.
Ok but again, it could take too long but you were already convinced at this point, that I was mafia and Wave was innocent and about to lynched. If you are town and being at this point, why the hell you wouldnt ##unvote Wave ##vote tronak?
Where did I say that? Could have been a day 1 bus.
On February 27 2015 07:04 Damdred wrote: 2 minutes is plenty of time for shenanigans. Idk if we could have put totally realistic, especially in a bh game!
The problem might not have been the logistics but convincing everyone to make a last minute switch based on one post which upon reflection could be bad town rather than scum.
Despite Wave flipping town I would do the same thing if I was in the same position with the same information, switching would have caused all sorts of chaos and probably led to a Snarfs lynch which I was less sure about.
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Damn you Tronak.
We got scum on this wagon people.
I read this as town realizing too late that it's a lynch between two town. If you're mafia, why do you even bother saying anything at all?
Kelsier wrote: plus the reason he scum read snarf was because as town he was "insightful and thinks carefully about his post" but now he thinks snarf is town because he is "active and willing to be wrong"
I also think town is more likely to contradict themselves. Especially in a scenario where he probably could have just jumped on my lynch given the aforementioned scumread.
On February 26 2015 08:58 Probulous wrote: Too late for a switch?
Who would ask this? you switch or not switch, but don't waste your supposed few time in asking if its too late. It was indeed too late to wagon on me, but it wasn't too late maybe for him to abandon his vote on Wave and shoot me.
Trust me I would have.I was thinking and typing at the same time. I thought there might be an option to switch but realised just trying to convince people you were scrum would take too long.
Ok but again, it could take too long but you were already convinced at this point, that I was mafia and Wave was innocent and about to lynched. If you are town and being at this point, why the hell you wouldnt ##unvote Wave ##vote tronak?
Where did I say that? Could have been a day 1 bus.
Wtf you asked if there was time to switch? why would you ask if you were not thinking Wave was innocent?
Because to me you had just basically scum-claimed. Much stronger case than my suspicions on Wave.
On February 27 2015 07:11 Probulous wrote: Despite Wave flipping town I would do the same thing if I was in the same position with the same information, switching would have caused all sorts of chaos and probably led to a Snarfs lynch which I was less sure about.
Now you give a proper "towny" reason for first time. Not sure if this comes late to me though.
On February 26 2015 09:26 Probulous wrote: OK going AFK. Might pop back in a couple hours otherwise see you at daybreak with some thoughts about how this went down.
why didn't you switch btw. anyway i'm going to sleep
I wanted to switch to Tronak. No chance of that happening. Not enough time to work out whether it was a last minute bus or hammering a town lynch. Obviously turned out to be number 2 but see my text wall for more information.
On February 27 2015 07:13 Probulous wrote: Do you know what "bussing" is?
Not really , I may deduce is puting a sheep after sheep on new good case?
ROFL, no bussing is when scum vote their own team. That way when one flips they look town. The problem is that a bus doesn't make sense if Snarfs is town. Of course I didn't realise how all this logic works out at the time of posting. I was sure I had caught a scum and wondered whether I could get people to change. That was why I was so aggressive after the lynch, it felt like a missed opportunity for me.
I liked his response when pushed to explain his Node case and the timing of it. It was so awkward and I imagine somewhat embarrassing that it just doesn't seem like something mafia would do (WIFOM? maybe). I mean his reasoning was he wanted to impress people because we had high expectations of him. Could there be a mafia motivation for this, sure but to me it sounds more town. He could have just said, well this is my case and I posted it when I felt it was ready.
Add into this that I really disliked Node's response to Snarf's response and subsequent disappearance (no explanation as far as I can tell). Snarfs has also been one of the active players here. He was inconsistent and made some bad mistakes but he was present.
On February 27 2015 07:32 Eden1892 wrote: Cliffs: - Artanis has been woefully unproductive this game - Node has one pg of filter full of obvious misrepresentations of other players and didn't care at all about the d1 lynch, parking his vote on Snarfs really early and not bothering to check back and see what had happened in the thread since - sicklucker's chronic inactivity is alignment-indicative I'm starting to think
I feel like this is for my benefit, lol.
With Node and SL, I'm curious. Both hint at inactivity/lurking. What makes them any worse than, say, me?
See I have a bias issue in that I've been inactive for valid RL stuff. I really don't like anything about Node's filter at all but I feel hypocritical scumming Node or SL immediately. Although it really is bad that Node AFKd a vote and attacked a post from Tronak that I liked as pushing discission, even if it was a summary bit.
Artanis I think I could lynch tomorrow. Having enough energy to post that you're lazy during a night phase is just a cop out. This is a time to reassess and see where that mislynch went wrong. And if you're lazy, you're not going to post at all. Just seems off.
Once you started being active, you've remained that way. Hypocrisy counts for shit, especially about activity. There is a difference between active lurking and just being completely busy. That's why I am giving Node the benefit of the doubt until he returns.
OK, sorry for the lack of posting. Weekend mafia is tough, especially when House of Cards Season 3 drops
First off, welcome to Shit-Samwich. Secondly ##Vote: FecalFeast
I had my suspicions about Node and his replacement is no better. Besides not reading the thread he is simply asking for reads and misrepresenting reality. His first action was dishonest. Note
On February 27 2015 11:43 Fecalfeast wrote: scum, feel free to pressure me for that easy mislynch but I read the posts of the man I replaced and correctly read him town before I got the replacement pm. Other than that, I've been barely skimming this game.
Followed by
On February 27 2015 11:56 Fecalfeast wrote: after page one I already think you're bleeding town. Does anyone have issues with snarfs? I'm still all up in this filter but if there's something in context that I might miss by looking at his filter alone, lmk
If you were skimming the thread, the first thing you notice is who was up for a lynch on Day 1. He knows that Snarfs is looking town to most people now because of the way is the lynch went down but he asks the question to appear ignorant.I mean why did he pick Snarfs anyway? My only conclusion is he saw the vote tally and thought Snarfs was a good person to start on because of the way the voting went but he tries to present it as if he is starting from scratch. You know, make the most of being a replacement. Lying is probably too harsh but it is definitely misrepresentation.
On February 27 2015 12:02 Fecalfeast wrote: can someone link/quote me a final vote count for Day1?
This is even more bull-shit if you follow the above. It like seriously linked in the OP. Followed by this
On February 27 2015 15:36 Fecalfeast wrote: How many people are scum reading yamato I remember him coming up a lot. Also why was snarfs the other wagon? Why was you vote on a separate person, SL? Did you think both wagons were town but no one listened?
If he even bothered to look at the vote tally he just posted he would know that Yamato was never a serious lynch contender. Artanis voted for him really early but I think that was it. Again, he is misrepresenting what happened in this game. SL voted like an idiot because perhaps he is one, I don't know, but a simple reading of the hour before the lynch would show you his reasons. These questions are not simply questions someone asks when they are trying to understand the game, they are questions someone asks when they want to appear to have no clue what is going on.
There is a difference between trying but missing things, and just being lazy. Node looked like scum but I gave him the benefit of the doubt in-case life got in the way his replacement is trying to use that leniency to skate bye.
OK, I had a town read on Art Day 1 because he was active and actually tried to scum-hunt. Also looking back, he was also one of the few (not sure if there was anyone else actually) who attempted to pick apart Eden's case on Wave.
On February 25 2015 22:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Also I don't think your wave case is that strong. I pointed out that he was adhering more to thread sentiment already here and he replied that he's changing his meta. I actually feel like he's been probing people's thoughts for the most part in the rest of the game. I also don't think his suspicion of Tronak is contradictory; he could simply find it stronger than the case on Tormented, though I still don't understand why people keep ignoring that case.
Another really nice interaction was when KSc though Art had caught Damred out, Art was certainly pushing Dam but instead of inflaiming KSc's suspicions he responds thusly
On February 26 2015 01:41 KelsierSC wrote: Artanis what the.fuck you just caught this fool. Lynch his.azz
No, Damdred is probably town. His explanation makes sense, he just worded one post poorly.
We now know Damred was town. Sure as scum he could have done the same thing, but why? Why not let Dam defend himself from these accusations? I mean if he didn't hose it down KSc might have taken it further? I don't know if he would have but I really like this interaction. As town there is obviously motivation to make things clear.
My biggest issue with Art is that he picked a newb as a target Day 1 and hasn't ever let up. Sure Tormented may be scum but tunneling this long without really going after someone else suggests a nice excuse to not actually participate. Damred's point are useful as well
Artanis has a really good shot at being scum, all day he thought that Yamato looked really bad and scummy but he decided to vote with his scum read and then after he voted he decided that Yamatos filter looked decent. He was somewhat useless today just focusing on tormented and yamato for the general portion of the day before deciding to vote with said scum read and suddenly reversing the read even when Yamato had been playing the same way the whole game.
I'd lynch Art if that is the way that we are going today but I think FF is a better bet.
EPT
