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Reflections on a Recent Game...
On February 04 2015 03:14 Hapahauli wrote:
Is it just me, or does this seem like one of those 500 page games?
On February 04 2015 03:15 Damdred wrote:
no, just no
I’m writing this at the end of the Day 2 lynch deadline in Horn of Africa Mini Mafia. Two players are "100% convinced" that the other is mafia, and the town has decided to lynch between them. Both players combine for over 60+ pages of filter. Both are veterans who have single-handedly carried many towns to victory. Both are obviously town.
I resolve to go to the kitchen and grab myself a slice of Trader Joe’s Patisserie de Chocolate - a side-dish to the unfolding drama. I soon realize that a meager slice of cake wouldn't be enough to placate myself, so I opt for seconds.
With two gratuitous slices of cake sitting next to my computer, I watch my screen as Day 2 ends in this 200-page game. Holyflare is lynched. I type “What the fuck is wrong with you people?” onto my analysis google doc.
I finish my cake.
I am filled with remorse.
TL Mafia was a more peaceful place when I started playing three years ago. I averaged 8-10 pages of filter in my first few games, and there was enough room on the forum to accommodate my “spammy playstyle.” That playstyle had some clear benefits. A 10-page filter was a daunting level of activity for scum to maintain, and reaching that magical number was a great way to establish trust. Back then, the first coaching advice I gave to any new town player was that "activity was paramount." Even mindless activity was an easy way to establish your “towniness.”
Eventually, mafia began to learn and adjust. A 10-page filter was no longer a “free town pass.” So activity standards increased… and increased.
I remember the first time I approached the 20-page filter mark. I spent more time posting than reading and thinking about the game. It was the only time I've ever been mislynched as town. I had a 33-page filter in my next game - Witchcraft Mini Mafia. It left me so frustrated with the inaccuracy of my reads that I took a several month-long break from the game.
So when I see players with 30+ page filters screaming at each other in a mafia game, I can only think…
Is this helping your town play?
Is this helping the rest of the town?
Is this even fun?
What's next... 50-page filters?
Did I eat too much cake?
I am feeling awful.
I understand the temptation. We spend hours a day thinking about this game. We emotionally invest ourselves in the pursuit of a successful lynch. We try to succeed through force of will, and all our obsessive and idle thoughts are posted in a misguided effort to contribute. Post-game, we are left in the frustration and regret of 300-page sugar-coma.
This hateful feeling is soon forgotten as we pursue our addiction - that moment when our efforts and convictions produce a red nametag. Yet that moment grows further out of reach as we sacrifice the quality of our thoughts for the size of our filters.
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pretty much sums up why I don't play as much, the amount of posts has gotten to an absurd amount and 95% of the posts arent worth reading
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THANK YOU HAPA.
I was JUST about to post about filter-length. I had received complaints on the length of the game aside from complaints in observer QT.
I was going to discuss it in my post-game but I am so happy you made a second thread.
As a moderator I was told by others to only moderate spam and let town handle if activity is too high or too low.
Pre-game I had made it clear that I did not feel it necessary to impose a post-count restriction for a mini.
For a large normal I would take a 3-4 (60-80 post) page per day cycle (48h) and 20 posts per night cycle, I think this is what Palmar did for Carol, and after Imperial hitting 500 pages, I think a postcount restriction is in order. I feel there are some players that put in reasonable time to the game but cannot keep up the pace when they fall 50 pages behind.
But for a mini, I didn't understand. When I saw the complaints, I read my game very carefully and I honestly did not feel anyone was spamming or doing excessive trolling. Some people were breaking their posts into smaller one liners but some of them were a series of questions to different people.
So as moderators where do we draw the line if someone is going off the deep end?
EDIT: Should such play be moderated in any way - that is what I am trying to drive at.
I received a few opinions last night, but I would like to hear more from people so I can understand better where to go next game I run.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
clearly it's time for twitterverse 2.0
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Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction
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On February 11 2015 11:02 IAmRobik wrote:
Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction
Then you should get better at using your posts wisely.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 11 2015 11:02 IAmRobik wrote:
Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction
Yeah I think Hapa's not saying we need post restrictions, just that we need to stop pouring buckets of spam onto everything-- voluntarily. We uh, really don't need 50 pages of filter, which is 1,000 posts, EACH, to play games.
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On February 11 2015 11:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:02 IAmRobik wrote:
Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction Then you should get better at using your posts wisely.
it's not about using posts wisely. it's about interacting with people on a real time basis. it is also something that I find essential for gathering reads. I am more comfortable reading someone i have a conversation with, rather than read someone who posts sparingly in big blocks of texts
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On February 11 2015 11:02 IAmRobik wrote:
Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction
Honest question here - do you feel this should be different in a normal mini versus a large normal? What do you make of Imperial?
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Take Imperial. 500 pages, scum victory, literally everyone demoralized.
Hapa is right Robik is trolling rayn will probably come and troll too
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I for one have no idea who OP is talking about 
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think we can all agree that games nowadays are sometimes getting out of hand with their activity levels.
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The super ironic hilarious thing is that I made the same point after Imperial aka the game where marv won as scum with a 30pg filter. Then I totally forgot it when I played. Lol
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On February 11 2015 11:14 Blazinghand wrote:
I think we can all agree that games nowadays are sometimes getting out of hand with their activity levels.
100%. All I need is a bad (busy) day at work, and I'm behind 30+ pages.
I am just wondering how a town internally resolves activity that is too high. Lynch the highest activity player? I don't see that flying, people say that high activity players should not be disposed of. On the flip side you can argue that spam makes it clutter for town and harder to find things. But has anyone actually been scumread successfully for clutter (not so much arguments/inconsistencies in the clutter but the clutter ITSELF)?
To be fair I understand why someone would prefer one-liners in conversation. Since my game was used as an example, I did not warn the one-liner people if I could tell they were trying to be productive with it. But I knew enough people were unhappy with the filter lengths of people. I did a spot check and this is what I got:
Eden1892 - 46 pages
Marvellosity - 45 pages
JAT - 33 pages
Top three players in terms of filter length. Between them, there was one warning and it wasn't for spam.
I compared this game to other minis in the last 3 months, and none of them held a candle to filter length even normalising for number of days or the modkills in my game.
The scary part is that the two modkills were on 2 extremely active players so the total length of this game could have been even higher.
So I have to also look at myself - could I have done a better job of controlling this as a moderator since this game appears to be an outlier?
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Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust
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I am definitely going to try and cut down on my posting.
And yeah, that game was pretty ridiculously long.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 11 2015 11:19 Eden1892 wrote:
Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust
I'm not even sure how to address this. That's not at all what will happen. Games will just be bad instead.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 11 2015 11:19 Eden1892 wrote:
Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust
I'm not even sure how to address this. That's not at all what will happen. Games will just be bad instead.
People don't just have a "market" of mafia posts, nobody's buying or selling anything. This is a different situation, so a lot of the good parts of "market forces" don't apply here. It's much more like the thread is a common good than a free market of strategies. ok here let me explain with this quote
As a thought experiment, let’s consider aquaculture (fish farming) in a lake. Imagine a lake with a thousand identical fish farms owned by a thousand competing companies. Each fish farm earns a profit of $1000/month. For a while, all is well.
But each fish farm produces waste, which fouls the water in the lake. Let’s say each fish farm produces enough pollution to lower productivity in the lake by $1/month.
A thousand fish farms produce enough waste to lower productivity by $1000/month, meaning none of the fish farms are making any money. Capitalism to the rescue: someone invents a complex filtering system that removes waste products. It costs $300/month to operate. All fish farms voluntarily install it, the pollution ends, and the fish farms are now making a profit of $700/month – still a respectable sum.
But one farmer (let’s call him Steve) gets tired of spending the money to operate his filter. Now one fish farm worth of waste is polluting the lake, lowering productivity by $1. Steve earns $999 profit, and everyone else earns $699 profit.
Everyone else sees Steve is much more profitable than they are, because he’s not spending the maintenance costs on his filter. They disconnect their filters too.
covnersat
Once four hundred people disconnect their filters, Steve is earning $600/month – less than he would be if he and everyone else had kept their filters on! And the poor virtuous filter users are only making $300.
there. spamming like THAT. and NOT spamming is like putting in a filter. Individually, spamming helps you not get lynched, but if EVERYONE does it, the thread is a shitshow and town loses. Unless we have a conversation and a real agreement to be better, people are just gonna disconnect their filters and get less fish.
Now, I also get the feeling that as scum, winning because everyone posted 20 pages of filter and nobody read anything and lynches were random, that's not too fun. Or losing simply because you didn't want to post 600 posts in your game... I dunno
on the other hand, maybe we LIKE where things are going in terms of post count, and that's fine too-- if that's what we want. but we should discuss it, you know? Figure out what we want.
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Lol, from a scum perspective...the crazy posting in that game made it easier for us
(less so for me, cause I actually do like to read the game, and just as an FYI...I WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY LOST AND DEPRESSIVE AS TOWN lol...probably more so)
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on a more realistic level
for people who have better (or at least more pressing) things to do than to check a thread constantly, seeing 20+ pages pop up multiple times a day when you check back in makes you not want to play. at all. it becomes too much work, and makes it hard for town to win
now I know I post a lot as town, and I've been trying to cut back on that in recent games (also a very hard adjustment to make when people can't be assed to make a read on active players beyond filter length, and I instantly get scummed for conserving posts)
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On February 11 2015 10:54 Half the Sky wrote:
THANK YOU HAPA.
I was JUST about to post about filter-length. I had received complaints on the length of the game aside from complaints in observer QT.
I was going to discuss it in my post-game but I am so happy you made a second thread.
As a moderator I was told by others to only moderate spam and let town handle if activity is too high or too low.
Pre-game I had made it clear that I did not feel it necessary to impose a post-count restriction for a mini.
For a large normal I would take a 3-4 (60-80 post) page per day cycle (48h) and 20 posts per night cycle, I think this is what Palmar did for Carol, and after Imperial hitting 500 pages, I think a postcount restriction is in order. I feel there are some players that put in reasonable time to the game but cannot keep up the pace when they fall 50 pages behind.
But for a mini, I didn't understand. When I saw the complaints, I read my game very carefully and I honestly did not feel anyone was spamming or doing excessive trolling. Some people were breaking their posts into smaller one liners but some of them were a series of questions to different people.
So as moderators where do we draw the line if someone is going off the deep end?
EDIT: Should such play be moderated in any way - that is what I am trying to drive at.
I received a few opinions last night, but I would like to hear more from people so I can understand better where to go next game I run.
I don't think that extra moderation/intervention in games is the way to solve the problem. Or atleast, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing such a thing as a host. It's such a slippery slope to tell someone that they are "posting too much."
That being said, perhaps a solution is to host more post-count restriction games like Ver has done in the past. Those games (Sicilian Mafia // You Only Shoot Once Mafia) seemed to have universally positive reception.
On February 11 2015 11:05 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On February 11 2015 11:02 IAmRobik wrote:
Different playstyles call for different levels of activity. I will _NEVER_ get townread in a game with a post restriction Then you should get better at using your posts wisely. it's not about using posts wisely. it's about interacting with people on a real time basis. it is also something that I find essential for gathering reads. I am more comfortable reading someone i have a conversation with, rather than read someone who posts sparingly in big blocks of texts
I think this is a very flawed way of looking at the game.
Conversations are a great way to find bad mafia players, and are an even better way to get manipulated by good ones. I say this as a person who used to scum-hunt primarily through conversational tells.
Some extra reading:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/448443-you-only-shoot-once-mafia?page=117#2323
On February 11 2015 11:19 Eden1892 wrote:
Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust
This isn't a free-market issue.
The activity levels have been increasing on this forum for the past three years - what makes you think it will suddenly reverse course if we leave it alone?
There are some larger issues preventing this problem from solving itself, which I touched on in the OP. It's really tempting for players to want to "look townie" and "contribute" by posting more. It's the easy way to get instant gratification. And it creates a vicious cycle of increasingly psychotic activity levels.
The real improvements you will make in this game are by spending extra time thinking about the game. And that's solitary, lonely, and difficult work. It is a fantastic feeling when that work succeeds, but it's so much easier to spam and pretend you are solving the game.
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I think people have touched on a lot of the issues regarding the activity-levels of games on this site. It makes games completely inaccessible to all but the most devoted (crazy) players and rapidly burns people out.
But even if none of the "higher minded" objectives of improving the quality of games appeal to you, just do it for yourself! Like it or not, there is a tradeoff between posting and thinking about the game. And if people spent even half of the time they used writing posts to just think about the game, they would improve so much at both their town and mafia play.
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played in both of those Ver games and can confirm they were 2 of the better games ive played in on this site
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
The biggest reason that I play as infrequently as I have the last year or so is due to the insane amount of time required to play a game. In terms of personal enjoyment, comparing the games several years ago to today it's not even close. The games of mafia that I had a blast playing were ones where nearly every player spent only a couple hours per cycle. Catching up on the thread after waking up in the morning was something to look forward to, rather than a chore. When you read the thread, you read every post because it was manageable to do so.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not preaching about how we should return to the good 'ol days and that my preferred type of game is how everyone should play. The skill level is much higher than it used to be. The strategy of posting such a high amount of content that no one can question that you are town is extremely effective. The mafia players who can emulate this high content strategy rise above all others. In these 300+ page threads there is so much useless information that it has become a viable strategy to stop reading the thread completely and only read the filters of the players being discussed for a lynch. It has become a different game than it used to be.
In the thirty games I've played as town, I average five pages of filter or roughly 100 posts. The largest filter I've ever had in a single game as town is 12. I would not consider myself a lurker and believe that I believe I provide my fair share of content in those 100 or so posts. In fact, about half of those posts are probably useless one liners so I believe you can say what you need to say in an extremely limited amount of posts. They don't need to be giant twenty paragraph analysis posts either.
I know people are looking for different experiences when it comes to playing a game of mafia. Some want the highest level game possible, others only care about winning, while another group enjoys the interactions with players themselves. It's probably impossible to please everyone.
There are people who will argue that their high post count style is how they play and that restricting them is unfair. I can understand that and I wouldn't want to tell someone that they can't play the way they want to play. However, it is possible to adapt. You can condense your posts, you can stop asking questions where the answer doesn't matter, and you can make the thread readable for others. At the same time, someone who can only player two hours a day is always going to be limited to that amount. They aren't able to adapt their style to a 40 page filter that is interacting in the thread at every single moment. There isn't a level playing field here.
I know a lot of players simply stop playing after becoming frustrated with the amount of time required to play a game. I think we need to find the right balance here. You can still have a high level game that ends in 100 pages. Perhaps some games should cater more to casual players, while others to more competitive players. I'm not sure if there is a great solution, but on a personal level I'd love to see the game experience improve.
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I think that a balance has to be found between extra spammy and to little activity as both lead to town losses.
Now let me talk about this a bit before I go on, people point to imperial mafia as what we are heading to and i'm not really sure that I agree with this assessment. Imperial is a total aberration in the grand scheme of things, you had an almost perfect storm. It was a somewhat down time for a lot of people in the game, it was a really large game with scums KP dwindling as the game went on and town did not have a KP of their own to help themselves gain information as well.
The cop was marginally ineffective because of framer+millers, and the scum team played really well even outside of the spam. The main reason that town lost wasn't because they were so entombed in spam per se, it was because they were not organized and they were stuck in their own reads and fighting amongst themselves for the great amount of time.
That being said the game wasn't a healthy game at all, and the page length was further increased by replacements coming in so late into the game when mod kills should of happened instead. That increased the size as well.
That aside, it wasn't condusive for town even though they had mafia on the block the final day and the day before if town would of worked together instead of going crazy.
Anyway back to the topic at hand, if you take the other game its insane for a mini, I had 9 pages of filter I believe at the time I was mod killed which equal'd to about 10% of the game posts maybe a tad bit less. Which I admit I try to shoot for somewhere between 6-10% of posts per day just so I can stay up and have a good handle on whats going on. But people are a lot postier than I, and it does sometimes make the game really difficult to read.
For example Edens post I basically skimmed going forward at one point or another and just stopped paying attention to what Eden said and did my own thing as it was just to much to handle at one point. I do the same thing at times with Robik at times and Sl I do it with as well. Why? A lot of it reads like drivel at points to me and I have a really hard time caring with people jumping back and forth so much.
But a post restriction isn't the answer either, its really up to the players themselves to realize that the behavior that they are doing makes it extremely difficult for the rest of the thread to take what they are saying and apply it or weight it constructively.
But you know if you get like HF, Marv, JAT and robik in the same game you are going to have 90 pages of filter between them at least. And people shouldn't have to change the playstyle they like but they just need to be mindful I suppose.
In all of my ramblings and thought vomit I think the conclusion would be, people just have to regulate themselves its not that town wins or loses on big or small post counts, its that town wins or loses based on the content of the posts that they pay attention to...
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I don't think people got the point of what I'm saying - I'm not saying "do nothing," I'm saying "people seem like they're figuring out that activity levels are too high, so let's see what happens over the next few games as people (presumably) change their style in response to this realization."
I gotta admit that I'm not sure what the alternative is. With regard to the game itself, I was the only egregious offender I'm aware of (certainly the only one publicly called out), and I've already written in the obs qt about this. More broadly I'm not sure of other specific examples, except maybe Imperial, which i know i already addressed at the time (although I think I was the only one who commented on it...), nor do I understand what the alternative is.
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Besides imperial I think I average a 4-8 page filter on day one and I generally get 2-4 pages until I die at that point depending.
Giving me a grand total of 12-18 page filter in general. Lately I have been posting considerable more having like 9, 9. 7 on day ones which is out of the ordinary to me but I've had more to say critically and pushing what and who I want to lynch. And fighting wagons so theres that to take into consideration meh.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
It's worth noting that although this is the first dedicated thread, this isn't the first time we've had this discussion. In the past eighteen months we've had like three or four restricted posting games experimentally in response to post game discussions of spam games. Twitterverse was one.
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On February 11 2015 11:59 Eden1892 wrote:
I don't think people got the point of what I'm saying - I'm not saying "do nothing," I'm saying "people seem like they're figuring out that activity levels are too high, so let's see what happens over the next few games as people (presumably) change their style in response to this realization."
I gotta admit that I'm not sure what the alternative is. With regard to the game itself, I was the only egregious offender I'm aware of (certainly the only one publicly called out), and I've already written in the obs qt about this. More broadly I'm not sure of other specific examples, except maybe Imperial, which i know i already addressed at the time (although I think I was the only one who commented on it...), nor do I understand what the alternative is.
Its only moderation, Geript is trying to keep his postings to X amount per day. I just like doing my average or finding 5-10% of the thread as my page number.
People have to keep themselves in check so that they don't pollute the game or there own experience.
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The other problem is if no one posts much of anything, there's nothing to read xP
Damdred and I can definitely speak to that. Part of why I started out so active on this site is it was needed where I started...however it's clearly not needed here the majority of the time. I think it's just a matter of reading the atmosphere of the thread and determining what it needs. Sometimes that's more posts. Sometimes that's throwing water on whoever is kicking up an unnecessary fuss, or talking down someone raging everywhere. Sometimes it's just plain direction, because the posting is fine but not going anywhere.
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On February 11 2015 12:08 rsoultin wrote:
The other problem is if no one posts much of anything, there's nothing to read xP
Damdred and I can definitely speak to that. Part of why I started out so active on this site is it was needed where I started...however it's clearly not needed here the majority of the time. I think it's just a matter of reading the atmosphere of the thread and determining what it needs. Sometimes that's more posts. Sometimes that's throwing water on whoever is kicking up an unnecessary fuss, or talking down someone raging everywhere. Sometimes it's just plain direction, because the posting is fine but not going anywhere.
I actually like this post Rsoultin is a town hero!
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On February 11 2015 11:10 Eden1892 wrote:I for one have no idea who OP is talking about
Go play a game on Smashboards.
Anyone here would get policy lynched for spam. Srs.
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On February 11 2015 11:19 Eden1892 wrote:
Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust
Aaaaaaaand wisdom. I have done exactly this; remember when my reputation was spam? (And true! I used to OWN whole pages in thread)
Someone just said me being in a game was grounds for how low activity would be.
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On February 11 2015 11:40 Hapahauli wrote:
I think people have touched on a lot of the issues regarding the activity-levels of games on this site. It makes games completely inaccessible to all but the most devoted (crazy) players and rapidly burns people out.
But even if none of the "higher minded" objectives of improving the quality of games appeal to you, just do it for yourself! Like it or not, there is a tradeoff between posting and thinking about the game. And if people spent even half of the time they used writing posts to just think about the game, they would improve so much at both their town and mafia play.
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this is only an issue in games that include hf/marv. In other games, it barely goes over 200 pages which is a decent length for a game. I think you are worrying about nothing.
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On February 11 2015 12:10 Damdred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 12:08 rsoultin wrote:
The other problem is if no one posts much of anything, there's nothing to read xP
Damdred and I can definitely speak to that. Part of why I started out so active on this site is it was needed where I started...however it's clearly not needed here the majority of the time. I think it's just a matter of reading the atmosphere of the thread and determining what it needs. Sometimes that's more posts. Sometimes that's throwing water on whoever is kicking up an unnecessary fuss, or talking down someone raging everywhere. Sometimes it's just plain direction, because the posting is fine but not going anywhere. I actually like this post Rsoultin is a town hero!
methinks I detect sarcasm ;o; why you no love me no more, damdy?
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Actually it was really truthful, you made a good point.
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<3! Sorry, I'm happy now that the game is over lol ^^
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On February 11 2015 14:23 rsoultin wrote:
<3! Sorry, I'm happy now that the game is over lol ^^
bark
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
posting less really REALLY hurts my scum game though 
i don't even read content anymore i've pretty much evolved to skimming through posts in someones filter and looking at the overall jist of their filter and reading their behaviour etc and I still find mafia..... my last cases have been
hts - asking questions and nothing else, not solving game
rsoul - not like town, excuses and reactive
jat - lame and lame
koshi - boring compared to normal and not following up from obs qt in linux
reading 20 pages takes like 10 minutes if everyone is just having a conversational game and I really don't see the complaint people have when they are behind unless they analytically study each page in exact detail which is silly....If there were 4 pages of wall of texts then that is far more of a hassle to me than 20 pages of sentences
everyone has a play style to adapt to and yes, conversational styles in the most part don't really work at finding mafia for a lot of people because they just haven't played the game enough and don't remember a word of what they've said in their filters and in that case they are dumb and shouldn't play conversationally! However, it allows you to ADAPT your reads far more quickly to a situation. If you post a giant wall of text and are wrong you've wasted a colossal amount of time into that wall of text and the research behind it whereas spammy style you're just constantly gathering information
it's really no coincidence at all that mafia lynches d1 are ever increasing because the spammy style is more conducive to actually finding mafia because their overall play becomes so much more apparent the more they post and commit to a direction
if people really don't like reading spammy games then there should be post restriction games in a separate queue to normals but be warned that those games will 9/10 times end up in mafia victories imo because the people that join them will be low content/low post count players which are the hardest players to read in this entire forum
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
shadow mafia was literally the MOST painful game in the world to read because it had a shit tonne of walls of text that lead absolutely nowhere and you had to waste an inordinate amount of time reading them just to come to the conclusion that they were wrong and you lost a chunk of your life reading it
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not important, but it makes me twitch
literally
please, for the love of god, people stop using that word constantly >< it's like you guys don't know what it means. dictionary be damned. (they only added the meaning for the ignorant) xP
nah, seriously, though, it loses weight when it's used every other sentence
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 11 2015 14:39 rsoultin wrote:
not important, but it makes me twitch
literally
please, for the love of god, people stop using that word constantly >< it's like you guys don't know what it means. dictionary be damned. (they only added the meaning for the ignorant) xP
nah, seriously, though, it loses weight when it's used every other sentence
the dictionary incorporates literally to mean emphasis now so it's correct
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
and shadow mafia WAS the most painful game to read, it gave me headaches to read the walls, so I used it correctly anyway ^^
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On February 11 2015 14:41 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 14:39 rsoultin wrote:
not important, but it makes me twitch
literally
please, for the love of god, people stop using that word constantly >< it's like you guys don't know what it means. dictionary be damned. (they only added the meaning for the ignorant) xP
nah, seriously, though, it loses weight when it's used every other sentence the dictionary incorporates literally to mean emphasis now so it's correct
i'm teasing, goober xP
apart from the seriously part. that was...serious xP
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text walls hurt my head, too @.@ I rarely read the whole thing
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I've always been a huge proponent of people playing however they want to play, whether that be someone that posts 40 times per game or osmeone who posts 500. People like marv or HF post a lot, but (almost) all of it is at least somewhat relevant.
But 46 pages in 2.5 days. That's just so utterly insane. How!? And the better question, how much of it was actually worth posting??
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ah my bad, thought this was a thread about activity levels not "sound off on eden's play last game"
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you can't just steal ls' name like that
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for real though. it's kind of annoying/unfair imo that i'm still getting shit on for my play that game when i literally acknowledged everything already said in the obs qt before it was said here/elsewhere
just kinda feels like browbeating at this point
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No, nobody is insulting your play. We're just discussing the qualms with people posting a lot of posts cluttering the thread for people that don't like reading to play in. Yours is the most recent example so of course it's going to get mentioned repeatedly.
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On February 11 2015 16:45 Eden1892 wrote:
for real though. it's kind of annoying/unfair imo that i'm still getting shit on for my play that game when i literally acknowledged everything already said in the obs qt before it was said here/elsewhere
just kinda feels like browbeating at this point
woof
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I think late game when town has to be active and figure things out then there should be no restrictions on activity. The issue is when people are spamming D1/D2 you don't have any real or concrete information so the majority of your posts will be incorrect or spam. Furthermore as more people use activity as a D1 metric it encourages mafia and town to be more spammy just to get a town read. To adapt my play I need to look at what people are actually doing D1, in terms of useful activity , not just number of posts. That is the main thing I learned from Horns.
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On February 11 2015 11:27 rsoultin wrote:
Lol, from a scum perspective...the crazy posting in that game made it easier for us
(less so for me, cause I actually do like to read the game, and just as an FYI...I WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY LOST AND DEPRESSIVE AS TOWN lol...probably more so)
No, it really didn't.
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On February 11 2015 11:14 Eden1892 wrote:
The super ironic hilarious thing is that I made the same point after Imperial aka the game where marv won as scum with a 30pg filter. Then I totally forgot it when I played. Lol
30 page? like 44, you swine. I would say part of the reason I spammed was because of Eden. This isn't to blame him in any way at all, I'm just weak and thought well if he's going to, I may as well too.
On February 11 2015 11:20 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:19 Eden1892 wrote:
Town keeps losing until it realizes it's talking too much. Then townies stop talking so much so they can lose less. It's a market, and people are realizing the price of posts is too high. Give it time and it will adjust I'm not even sure how to address this. That's not at all what will happen. Games will just be bad instead.
Horn of Africa *wasn't* bad, though. Sure it had passages of bad/derp play (some from yours truly) but that's the same in any game. But there was stacks of good play as well.
Admittedly my best passage of play was on the final day when I paused, took a deep breath, and took my time finding things 
edit: versatility is important. You have to be able to win in all styles - Imperial, Shadow as megaspam + wall-of-text games respectively as scum, and - Horn, megaposty game, YOSO, tightly post-restricted game as town
Generally speaking I could easily have posted 10+ pages less in Horn, but I would still have had a high post-count and most of it would have been "valid". Actually one of the best things about the game was that everyone was trying and playing. That's what makes an interesting or enjoyable game for me.
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On February 11 2015 11:00 Blazinghand wrote:
clearly it's time for twitterverse 2.0
Best game.
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I think a post restriction game would benefit from a minimum amount of posts, say 20? Per cycle as well just so you don't get excesses on the other side. Perhaps limiting the restrictions to D1 and D2 would help, as those tend to be the spammiest days.
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On February 11 2015 19:58 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:27 rsoultin wrote:
Lol, from a scum perspective...the crazy posting in that game made it easier for us
(less so for me, cause I actually do like to read the game, and just as an FYI...I WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY LOST AND DEPRESSIVE AS TOWN lol...probably more so) No, it really didn't.
heh, maybe it just helped me, then xP I didn't really get into oh shit they're gonna lynch me trouble until people stopped going nuts and the thread calmed down lol
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On February 11 2015 20:55 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 19:58 justanothertownie wrote:On February 11 2015 11:27 rsoultin wrote:
Lol, from a scum perspective...the crazy posting in that game made it easier for us
(less so for me, cause I actually do like to read the game, and just as an FYI...I WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY LOST AND DEPRESSIVE AS TOWN lol...probably more so) No, it really didn't. heh, maybe it just helped me, then xP I didn't really get into oh shit they're gonna lynch me trouble until people stopped going nuts and the thread calmed down lol
You know I said "I have this terrible feeling" just to make you shit your pants, right?
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On February 11 2015 20:57 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 20:55 rsoultin wrote:On February 11 2015 19:58 justanothertownie wrote:On February 11 2015 11:27 rsoultin wrote:
Lol, from a scum perspective...the crazy posting in that game made it easier for us
(less so for me, cause I actually do like to read the game, and just as an FYI...I WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY LOST AND DEPRESSIVE AS TOWN lol...probably more so) No, it really didn't. heh, maybe it just helped me, then xP I didn't really get into oh shit they're gonna lynch me trouble until people stopped going nuts and the thread calmed down lol You know I said "I have this terrible feeling" just to make you shit your pants, right?
lol xP I knew you were talking about me. Really, though, trying to play that Day 3 alone would have been nerve-wracking enough regardless lol
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On February 11 2015 20:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I think a post restriction game would benefit from a minimum amount of posts, say 20? Per cycle as well just so you don't get excesses on the other side. Perhaps limiting the restrictions to D1 and D2 would help, as those tend to be the spammiest days.
I read the last thread on spam and Yamato proposed a D1-only post restriction. I tinkered with that idea for a bit, and it might be a fair but firm way to keep the BS in check that usually occurs D1. Yet others seem quite opposed to any sort of post restriction, and I think this could be a happy medium.
As for town regulation of spammers, it seems like in the games that I've played the spammiest players are kept around because they are spammy for the most part, and from experience part of the reason I almost got mislynched in student mafia was because I was making an argument that a certain spammer was partially scummy because he was cluttering the thread making it difficult for the rest of us. Clearly others didn't buy that.
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all of the spammers i know get shot n1, like every single one of them? - robik
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On February 11 2015 22:14 Holyflare wrote:
all of the spammers i know get shot n1, like every single one of them? - robik
I understand what you are saying, but I think I play in games where there are multiple spammers though...assuming 1 KP/night, you just can't shoot all of them N1.
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I mean mafia shoot them for being good  my play devolved to spam so I could get the most info out into the thread or gather the most info possible in a short amount of time before dying and I just like being super conversational because it helps a lot. D1 restriction would hurt the most important days worth of information!
Look at horn for example, the case for rsoul being mafia was d1 and the interactions were all from mafia d1 etc etc. More info day 1 more winning!
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On February 11 2015 20:01 marvellosity wrote:
edit: versatility is important. You have to be able to win in all styles - Imperial, Shadow as megaspam + wall-of-text games respectively as scum, and - Horn, megaposty game, YOSO, tightly post-restricted game as town
Generally speaking I could easily have posted 10+ pages less in Horn, but I would still have had a high post-count and most of it would have been "valid". Actually one of the best things about the game was that everyone was trying and playing. That's what makes an interesting or enjoyable game for me.
100%. I think it's good to be able to communicate and make arguments in different ways, why limit yourself to certain types of games because of this?
As for the validity, once people started making comments on filter lengths, I took a hard look at Eden's filter, Marv, JAT and even Rasputin, she was getting up there too. There was a lot of repetition between players, but nothing that I considered on the lines of trolling/abuse/straight up spam. I even explained to a couple of the people in PM that people were honestly trying. I don't think it's fair to punish for that. Play on, I say.
An example that would have gotten a warning, if Palmar had done what he'd done in Hammertime spamming "Kill Toad" 100x, he definitely would have been warned had he pulled that in Horn.
The only thing that I'd say bugged me as a moderator was seeing a relatively decent chunk of discussion at some point or another on mechanics or stuff that would not have resulted in posting had people been paying attention to the OP. There were a few legitimate points where I felt it necessary to step in and clarify things where it wasn't in my setup post, but once I had the 5th person talking about unaware millers when the OP said they were aware I just seriously had to wonder. (I also had several people PM me about notifications when again, it was clearly stated in the OP how they'd be handled.) Still, the point remains, we can't punish for people not paying attention either.
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On February 11 2015 22:21 Holyflare wrote:I mean mafia shoot them for being good my play devolved to spam so I could get the most info out into the thread or gather the most info possible in a short amount of time before dying and I just like being super conversational because it helps a lot. D1 restriction would hurt the most important days worth of information! Look at horn for example, the case for rsoul being mafia was d1 and the interactions were all from mafia d1 etc etc. More info day 1 more winning!
Well, let me ask you this then. I realise you were scum in Carol, and that Carol was a large normal but that game had a post restriction too and I think scum Kelsier was caught out D2 based on things he said D1. Clearly the post restriction didn't affect that result, though I'm not sure of the people who got N1'ed in that game were spammers. Koshi, Kita don't strike me as spammers for instance (probably NKed because they are just good players), I forget offhand who else was N1'd.
I understand your personal perspective though as someone who appears to get N1'd a lot though, so it makes sense for people like you to milk that day for all it's worth if you're town.
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I wrote a really long post with historical TL mafia play, analysing trends and changes and how it has come to this based on the dominant style of play. Then I accidentally deleted it. That was kinda sad.
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Fun fact, I used to be a spammer.
I still post just as much as I did back in the day.
~~~~~~
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On February 11 2015 22:34 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 22:21 Holyflare wrote:I mean mafia shoot them for being good my play devolved to spam so I could get the most info out into the thread or gather the most info possible in a short amount of time before dying and I just like being super conversational because it helps a lot. D1 restriction would hurt the most important days worth of information! Look at horn for example, the case for rsoul being mafia was d1 and the interactions were all from mafia d1 etc etc. More info day 1 more winning! Well, let me ask you this then. I realise you were scum in Carol, and that Carol was a large normal but that game had a post restriction too and I think scum Kelsier was caught out D2 based on things he said D1. Clearly the post restriction didn't affect that result, though I'm not sure of the people who got N1'ed in that game were spammers. Koshi, Kita don't strike me as spammers for instance (probably NKed because they are just good players), I forget offhand who else was N1'd. I understand your personal perspective though as someone who appears to get N1'd a lot though, so it makes sense for people like you to milk that day for all it's worth if you're town.
yeh but dat guy was obvious mafia! it's different if you start playing with better and better people, I ran out of posts so many times in that game and I was mafia! If I was mafia without a post restriction (and time) I could have completely buried the kelsier case/got gb off of me/made people sheep me at deadline by spamming/getting aggro at people and saved a team mate for one extra mislynch etc etc which just isn't possible with a cap on posts and that playstyle a post restriction is literally saying we don't like the way you play play OUR way instead which is still just discrimination but for another preference!
post restrictions restrict freedom which is a basic human right!
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Post restrictions are ok if the game is built for it, carol had them because of Christmas. Either way I dislike post restrictions but i'd probably play in one again.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On February 11 2015 22:21 Holyflare wrote:I mean mafia shoot them for being good my play devolved to spam so I could get the most info out into the thread or gather the most info possible in a short amount of time before dying and I just like being super conversational because it helps a lot. D1 restriction would hurt the most important days worth of information!
Holyflare is the guy that figures out you're a Virgo, wearing a blue tie, who ate Cheerios for breakfast that accidentally discovers you are mafia because last game you ate Frosted Flakes.
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oh yeh, I also play from my phone a ridiculous amount of time and making anything other than a few sentences on a phone is major hassle
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On February 11 2015 23:39 Holyflare wrote:
oh yeh, I also play from my phone a ridiculous amount of time and making anything other than a few sentences on a phone is major hassle
People playing with phones makes me feel old. I always feel proud if I manage 3 posts of about 6 words each with a phone, then I'm knackered.
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On February 11 2015 23:41 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 23:39 Holyflare wrote:
oh yeh, I also play from my phone a ridiculous amount of time and making anything other than a few sentences on a phone is major hassle People playing with phones makes me feel old. I always feel proud if I manage 3 posts of about 6 words each with a phone, then I'm knackered.
you are old :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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doesn't stop you being old though
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yes, sadly that is of a more permanent, and ever-worsening, nature
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people shoot spammers because they dont want to read the thread as mafia.
I always keep spammers alive because it makes the thread shitty to read and the town worse as a result. I forget what game it was but we as scum killed off pretty much every no content player and the thread was a huge shitfest of all the spammers at eachother's throats while we sat there, cool game.
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On February 11 2015 23:10 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 22:34 Half the Sky wrote:On February 11 2015 22:21 Holyflare wrote:I mean mafia shoot them for being good my play devolved to spam so I could get the most info out into the thread or gather the most info possible in a short amount of time before dying and I just like being super conversational because it helps a lot. D1 restriction would hurt the most important days worth of information! Look at horn for example, the case for rsoul being mafia was d1 and the interactions were all from mafia d1 etc etc. More info day 1 more winning! Well, let me ask you this then. I realise you were scum in Carol, and that Carol was a large normal but that game had a post restriction too and I think scum Kelsier was caught out D2 based on things he said D1. Clearly the post restriction didn't affect that result, though I'm not sure of the people who got N1'ed in that game were spammers. Koshi, Kita don't strike me as spammers for instance (probably NKed because they are just good players), I forget offhand who else was N1'd. I understand your personal perspective though as someone who appears to get N1'd a lot though, so it makes sense for people like you to milk that day for all it's worth if you're town. post restrictions restrict freedom which is a basic human right!
There is nothing more to say besides this.
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bro even I can phonepost.
And I'm at least 60 years older than you marv.
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you're younger than me... :<
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kitaman27
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Look at how Holy, marv, and Palmar disrupt a perfectly productive discussion with their useless spam.
I think we need to enforce a post restriction in this thread.
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i had some useful input at least!
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What'd you say?
On February 11 2015 22:14 Holyflare wrote:
all of the spammers i know get shot n1, like every single one of them? - robik
Most N0/N1 Town Deaths by %
IAmRobik 6/14 = 42.8571%
Blazinghand 10/27 = 37.0370%
s0Lstice 4/11 = 36.3636%
chaos13 4/12 = 33.3333%
Mr. Wiggles 6/19 = 31.5789%
LSB 6/21 = 28.5714%
Ace 7/25 = 28.0000%
Caller 4/15 = 26.6667%
Kurumi 5/19 = 26.3158%
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On February 11 2015 11:46 kitaman27 wrote:
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Now don't get me wrong. I'm not preaching about how we should return to the good 'ol days and that my preferred type of game is how everyone should play. The skill level is much higher than it used to be. The strategy of posting such a high amount of content that no one can question that you are town is extremely effective. The mafia players who can emulate this high content strategy rise above all others. In these 300+ page threads there is so much useless information that it has become a viable strategy to stop reading the thread completely and only read the filters of the players being discussed for a lynch. It has become a different game than it used to be.
...
I wouldn't be complaining if "mass posting to establish townie-ness" were truly viable and effective. It once, but it isn't any more. Mafia are perfectly capable of mass-posting as revealed by recent games, and now we're just left in a situation where there's mass-posting for the sake of "metagame" rather than purpose.
On February 11 2015 11:49 Damdred wrote:
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In all of my ramblings and thought vomit I think the conclusion would be, people just have to regulate themselves its not that town wins or loses on big or small post counts, its that town wins or loses based on the content of the posts that they pay attention to...
This is pretty much what I'm getting at. The quality of posts determine the strength of a town. The quantity is irrelevant, and likely detrimental. And if people focused on quality of posts, the quality of play and games on this site would improve.
On February 11 2015 13:22 liancourt wrote:
this is only an issue in games that include hf/marv. In other games, it barely goes over 200 pages which is a decent length for a game. I think you are worrying about nothing.
Marv and Holyflare aren't the only people with absurd filters in that game, nor are they the only people that "spam."
In fact, I'd argue that Marv and Holyflare are the least of the problems - they are two players that have actual success with their playstyle. The problem is everyone who spams and doesn't think about how it could be hurting their game. Because it's a rare talent to be able to post and think at the same time - a talent I do not have.
On February 12 2015 01:18 IAmRobik wrote:What'd you say? Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 22:14 Holyflare wrote:
all of the spammers i know get shot n1, like every single one of them? - robik Most N0/N1 Town Deaths by % IAmRobik 6/14 = 42.8571% Blazinghand 10/27 = 37.0370% s0Lstice 4/11 = 36.3636% chaos13 4/12 = 33.3333% Mr. Wiggles 6/19 = 31.5789% LSB 6/21 = 28.5714% Ace 7/25 = 28.0000% Caller 4/15 = 26.6667% Kurumi 5/19 = 26.3158%
I would encourage you to have higher standards for your play. But your standards are your own I suppose.
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Blazinghand
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The reason I'm shot n1 37% of the time (while usually only comprising 10% of the townies) isn't that I spam, it's that my tactics and knowledge are terrifyingly effective at scum hunting.
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On February 11 2015 14:30 Holyflare wrote:posting less really REALLY hurts my scum game though i don't even read content anymore i've pretty much evolved to skimming through posts in someones filter and looking at the overall jist of their filter and reading their behaviour etc and I still find mafia..... my last cases have been hts - asking questions and nothing else, not solving game rsoul - not like town, excuses and reactive jat - lame and lame koshi - boring compared to normal and not following up from obs qt in linux
There's a lot in your post to talk about Holyflare, but I think this is the most important.
How important is a psychotically active filter in making these types of cases? I'd argue that it makes no difference - those observations can be made in a far less active game without all the spam. All the activity does is add to the chaos and make the relevant information harder to find. You have a talent for parsing through the chaos, but most don't have such an ability.
reading 20 pages takes like 10 minutes if everyone is just having a conversational game and I really don't see the complaint people have when they are behind unless they analytically study each page in exact detail which is silly....If there were 4 pages of wall of texts then that is far more of a hassle to me than 20 pages of sentences
I think you're in the minority here, judging from the responses. I personally find less-posts and more-content easier to parse through and read than the chaos of 1-liners. It makes individual posts be more memorable.
everyone has a play style to adapt to and yes, conversational styles in the most part don't really work at finding mafia for a lot of people because they just haven't played the game enough and don't remember a word of what they've said in their filters and in that case they are dumb and shouldn't play conversationally! However, it allows you to ADAPT your reads far more quickly to a situation. If you post a giant wall of text and are wrong you've wasted a colossal amount of time into that wall of text and the research behind it whereas spammy style you're just constantly gathering information
I don't want to get into an argument about style, mostly because it's disingenuous for me to tell a good player with a style he has found success with that they are playing "wrong." My audience is pretty much everyone other than you.
On a personal viewpoint of style though, I find that posting more often makes me adapt with thread sentiment too much. I need a layer of separation from the game to maintain a level of objectivity needed to be accurate.
it's really no coincidence at all that mafia lynches d1 are ever increasing because the spammy style is more conducive to actually finding mafia because their overall play becomes so much more apparent the more they post and commit to a direction
My theory is that spam hurts bad scum players and helps good ones. Inexperienced ones are picked off quickly, overwhelmed by the spam, while skilled/experienced players are quick to take advantage of the chaos.
if people really don't like reading spammy games then there should be post restriction games in a separate queue to normals but be warned that those games will 9/10 times end up in mafia victories imo because the people that join them will be low content/low post count players which are the hardest players to read in this entire forum
I think this is a ridiculous assertion. I've never had problems reading low-post count players, nor have others on this site years ago. The insane expectations of activity are a crutch and not a leg to stand on.
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On February 12 2015 03:23 Holyflare wrote:
and you claim blue d1
bwahahahahaha.
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On February 12 2015 03:22 Blazinghand wrote:
The reason I'm shot n1 37% of the time (while usually only comprising 10% of the townies) isn't that I spam, it's that my tactics and knowledge are terrifyingly effective at scum hunting.
On February 12 2015 03:23 Holyflare wrote:
and you claim blue d1
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Hapa nobody forces you to spam. You can be completely fine with less posts in the current meta if they are good. And I absolutely think that walls of text are way more annoying to read than 1 or 2 pages of shorter posts (I have always read the entire thread in every game I played with the exception of some long posts and I tend to ignore them more and more because they are rarely very informative -> Dr. Hs posts in Imperial are a good example). And your post isn't more analytical or has better content only because it is a wall.
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yeah i got that holyflare if that's what you are referring to.
that's why my response.
for the topic, i don't know. i kinda always have posted much. when i play i play, and usually my posts always have some agenda, town/scum depending on my affiliation. it's probably because i originally came here from games that were mostly done by IM's -- that has lead me to interact with people in "real time" more than to look for "scummy posts".
in my opinion the playstyle has changed throughout the years i have played here towards the direction i said above. people are just too good as scum (even the just above worst) to be figured out by some single post or a couple of posts.
and i agree with holyflare with how to / how easy it is to read the thread. you can easily tell which posts are relevant and which are not in a spammy (or "spammy") game.
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On February 12 2015 03:23 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 14:30 Holyflare wrote:posting less really REALLY hurts my scum game though i don't even read content anymore i've pretty much evolved to skimming through posts in someones filter and looking at the overall jist of their filter and reading their behaviour etc and I still find mafia..... my last cases have been hts - asking questions and nothing else, not solving game rsoul - not like town, excuses and reactive jat - lame and lame koshi - boring compared to normal and not following up from obs qt in linux There's a lot in your post to talk about Holyflare, but I think this is the most important. How important is a psychotically active filter in making these types of cases? I'd argue that it makes no difference - those observations can be made in a far less active game without all the spam. All the activity does is add to the chaos and make the relevant information harder to find. You have a talent for parsing through the chaos, but most don't have such an ability. Show nested quote +reading 20 pages takes like 10 minutes if everyone is just having a conversational game and I really don't see the complaint people have when they are behind unless they analytically study each page in exact detail which is silly....If there were 4 pages of wall of texts then that is far more of a hassle to me than 20 pages of sentences I think you're in the minority here, judging from the responses. I personally find less-posts and more-content easier to parse through and read than the chaos of 1-liners. It makes individual posts be more memorable. Show nested quote +everyone has a play style to adapt to and yes, conversational styles in the most part don't really work at finding mafia for a lot of people because they just haven't played the game enough and don't remember a word of what they've said in their filters and in that case they are dumb and shouldn't play conversationally! However, it allows you to ADAPT your reads far more quickly to a situation. If you post a giant wall of text and are wrong you've wasted a colossal amount of time into that wall of text and the research behind it whereas spammy style you're just constantly gathering information I don't want to get into an argument about style, mostly because it's disingenuous for me to tell a good player with a style he has found success with that they are playing "wrong." My audience is pretty much everyone other than you. On a personal viewpoint of style though, I find that posting more often makes me adapt with thread sentiment too much. I need a layer of separation from the game to maintain a level of objectivity needed to be accurate. Show nested quote +it's really no coincidence at all that mafia lynches d1 are ever increasing because the spammy style is more conducive to actually finding mafia because their overall play becomes so much more apparent the more they post and commit to a direction My theory is that spam hurts bad scum players and helps good ones. Inexperienced ones are picked off quickly, overwhelmed by the spam, while skilled/experienced players are quick to take advantage of the chaos. Show nested quote +if people really don't like reading spammy games then there should be post restriction games in a separate queue to normals but be warned that those games will 9/10 times end up in mafia victories imo because the people that join them will be low content/low post count players which are the hardest players to read in this entire forum I think this is a ridiculous assertion. I've never had problems reading low-post count players, nor have others on this site years ago. The insane expectations of activity are a crutch and not a leg to stand on.
There's a line that I can't seem to filter through between inactive townies who just cba to play that much and mafia hiding in the shadows. These are the biggest problems and pretty much only problem in finding mafia for me. The higher the amount of posts the more psychoanalysing I can do on that person.
I guess because I have a lot of time I can be actively separating what I'm typing and what I'm thinking about in terms of the whole game though. I don't think spam helps scum more than town at all though, if the spammers are good at least.
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On February 12 2015 03:16 Hapahauli wrote:
I would encourage you to have higher standards for your play. But your standards are your own I suppose.
What do you mean? Clearly what I'm doing scares the fuck out of mafia because it forces them to kill me because I usually have good reads. I'm not sure what you're trying to say
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Posting 1 page full quality is my dream. I have tried to post less as town but I just find it less enjoyable.
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On February 12 2015 03:44 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 03:16 Hapahauli wrote:
I would encourage you to have higher standards for your play. But your standards are your own I suppose. What do you mean? Clearly what I'm doing scares the fuck out of mafia because it forces them to kill me because I usually have good reads. I'm not sure what you're trying to say
That's really not true.
People who get hit on N1 are not the best town players because of the fear of the doctor.
Yes they are good, but never the best because the best player is the obvious doc target.
True story, do you ever wonder why marv is not on that list?
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you know when you're the real mafia threat when they know there could be a doc and they shoot you anyway
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On February 12 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:
you know when you're the real mafia threat when they know there could be a doc and they shoot you anyway
i have never shot marv on D1 despite him being always the "real mafia threat". I usually shoot someone like Wave or BH.
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I think games where I've been mafia I've shot hf like three times or something silly like that.... and doc saved him once and rayn once :'(
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On February 12 2015 03:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 03:44 IAmRobik wrote:On February 12 2015 03:16 Hapahauli wrote:
I would encourage you to have higher standards for your play. But your standards are your own I suppose. What do you mean? Clearly what I'm doing scares the fuck out of mafia because it forces them to kill me because I usually have good reads. I'm not sure what you're trying to say That's really not true. People who get hit on N1 are not the best town players because of the fear of the doctor. Yes they are good, but never the best because the best player is the obvious doc target. True story, do you ever wonder why marv is not on that list?
This is partially inaccurate. Eden (for example) was a "medic dodge" in Imperial, but his reads were 100% spot on and he was playing very well. I think this is true of many of my games too. There are plenty of people who get killed n1 over "good" players because their reads are right, in conjunction with the medic dodge type thought.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On a personal viewpoint of style though, I find that posting more often makes me adapt with thread sentiment too much. I need a layer of separation from the game to maintain a level of objectivity needed to be accurate.
I partly agree with you, and I generally need to force myself to take a step back at points.
The other side of this is that when you're in the thread, conversing, getting involved with everything... you get a sense of what is right and what is not right given what's happening at the time; whether a post is appropriate, that's somewhat harder to glean when you're reading from a more detached viewpoint. There was one post from rsoultin at the beginning of Horn, I picked it out as awful, but no-one else could see what i was getting at or understood. Only HF had similar feelings about rsoultin than I did at the time.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 11:49 Damdred wrote:
In all of my ramblings and thought vomit I think the conclusion would be, people just have to regulate themselves its not that town wins or loses on big or small post counts, its that town wins or loses based on the content of the posts that they pay attention to... This is pretty much what I'm getting at. The quality of posts determine the strength of a town. The quantity is irrelevant, and likely detrimental. And if people focused on quality of posts, the quality of play and games on this site would improve.
I don't think it improves or harms town significantly in most cases. As the size of threads has increased, the town win rate has remained pretty much constant. There are some players who are really effective with this style and there are others who aren't. The biggest issue in my opinion is the experience that it creates.
Assuming that you have the same chance of winning in a 100 page game and a 300 page game and both games are played at a relatively high level, which would you prefer? On a similar note, if you had the opportunity to play 2-3 100 page games or a single 300 page game, which would you prefer? I would much rather play multiple games (not at the same time) spending a couple hours on each game each cycle than a single game where I'm spending five hours each cycle, but I'm sure others would prefer the other way around.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
would be interested to see a d1 mafia lynch to d1 post count ratio somehow
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
It isn't a direct comparison to post count, but if you compare the games played in the last couple years to the games 3-5 years ago, the d1 lynch percentage goes up by a couple percent (excluding newbies) and d2 and later lynch percentage goes down by a slightly smaller margin. I don't think that it's large enough to outweigh the random variance with only a couple hundred games, but I'm no statistician.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Don't forget that there are other confounders too. Different players, different setups, different rules.
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It could be worse, I could also be playing!
There are 2 things with this:
1) At times you want to post some thoughts to get feedback, watch reactions of other players, and get some discussion going (if you are not very sure about some things). It also may come down to the innate misconception that the more information there is out there, the better it will be (since the only thing you have to do is reread the thread and analyze it all to find the scummerz!). Yet the more info there is out there, the more garbage there is too, and filtering out the important info becomes harder and harder
2) At times (maybe most of the time) you just need to constantly post to feel how the thread is going. If you realize someone is "active", doing back and forths with him, and taking notice of other people's activity while doing so can give you lots of information ("when we were discussing player X being scum, player Y was suspiciously silent, yet when we started discussing stuff about player Z he suddenly started posting more and more"). This is something you just don't get when rereading someone's filter for isolated posts. Context is very very important (and it's easier to gauge while constantly posting, than by just coming on every once in a while and rereading filters).
I use this stuff a lot, and is one of the methods that gives me the biggest "tells", specially in the last hour before deadline. Take this away from me and I'll have shitty reads (at least until I adjust at reading people "properly")
It's difficult. By doing so you gain a lot of stuff yourself, but you make the game harder for others, and you get less accuracy when rereading the thread (have to wade through a lot of garbage, etc). But not doing it may just not give you enough information or feeling about other players for you to be confident in any read.
In games where you have mason circles and whatever with another active townie it is better though (if they post at all of course -_-).
I think that ultimately the best solution is just having small games, of 11-15 players. With this you can do the above but still have a relatively small thread, so everybody wins.
On February 11 2015 14:32 Holyflare wrote:
shadow mafia was literally the MOST painful game in the world to read because it had a shit tonne of walls of text that lead absolutely nowhere and you had to waste an inordinate amount of time reading them just to come to the conclusion that they were wrong and you lost a chunk of your life reading it
weren't you scum though (and replaced)?
Admitedly, that game was a pain in the ass to read (past d1), leading to a lot of confusion (at least from my part)
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Im surprised a 13 person game got anywhere close to beating chrono trigger mafia in page number
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Yeah, I don't have time to play much anymore and the increasing post count doesn't help. Though come on guys, 50 page filters are so 2013. My personal preference will always be less posts and that was the style that a lot of games had when I started many years ago. I remember when getting to 100 pages was a lot haha.
Honestly, it just depends on the players and hosts. Host more post count restriction games if needed. If people play and enjoy them, then continue to host them, if not, don't. Simple as that.
On February 12 2015 10:07 GreYMisT wrote:
Im surprised a 13 person game got anywhere close to beating chrono trigger mafia in page number
Wasn't that broken by another game, or am I remembering incorrectly?
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On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 10:07 GreYMisT wrote:
Im surprised a 13 person game got anywhere close to beating chrono trigger mafia in page number Wasn't that broken by another game, or am I remembering incorrectly?
The old record:
Chrono Trigger: 7663 replies
Better, but good enough?:
TL LXIII: Time To Die: 7903 replies
Nope, the grandfather of them all:
PYP LoL: 8443 replies
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incorrect, Imperial broke that record
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and it didn't even have holyflare in it, if you can believe
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:Yeah, I don't have time to play much anymore and the increasing post count doesn't help. Though come on guys, 50 page filters are so 2013.
I like to think I'm the grand-daddy of unnecessary, hilariously long filters.
In many ways the current meta is all my fault. :>
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On February 12 2015 20:55 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:Yeah, I don't have time to play much anymore and the increasing post count doesn't help. Though come on guys, 50 page filters are so 2013. I like to think I'm the grand-daddy of unnecessary, hilariously long filters. In many ways the current meta is all my fault. :>
It really is probably.
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On February 12 2015 00:56 marvellosity wrote:
you're younger than me... :<
No I'm not!
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On February 12 2015 22:16 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 20:55 marvellosity wrote:On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:Yeah, I don't have time to play much anymore and the increasing post count doesn't help. Though come on guys, 50 page filters are so 2013. I like to think I'm the grand-daddy of unnecessary, hilariously long filters. In many ways the current meta is all my fault. :> It really is probably.
I so wish I hadn't deleted my history post, it basically explained this phenomenon.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Man up and write it again.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
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we've had this discussion before, haven't we
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
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Anyway, you are, yes, very much responsible for the spammy style of play.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
With great power comes great responsibility
which is unfortunate when you're irresponsible like me
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I'll rewrite the post if you come on IRC to help me.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
ok, i'll come in a while, got some things to do first
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lol and you guys claim to be old. should be dropkicked
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I agree. Suddenly I got old. Out of nowhere.
I thought you people were from '75 or something more ancient.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
nice spamming in the anti spam thread
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On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:
Honestly, it just depends on the players and hosts. Host more post count restriction games if needed. If people play and enjoy them, then continue to host them, if not, don't. Simple as that.
If I recall right, Carol had a number of people coming out of the woodwork, not sure though how many were attracted to the game because of the post restriction or just because Palmar is an awesome host.
The Student Mafia games do not have a post restriction, but those games are slower paced in general and rarely the length gets crazy in that one. Last two games, the vets filled up the vet slots pretty quickly (particularly with some players that I consider to be lower on the postcount end), and I think that should be some indicator right there.
Given the feedback here and as BH said earlier, this discussion has been done how many times? I think it's worth trying to parallel one game with certain types of restrictions (reasonable, part of me wants to argue that 25 posts per day is a bit low, but I can see why some people would want to go low) and just see how sustainable it is. If you use Palmar's cutoffs as the numbers then that post restriction shouldn't be an issue for the vast majority of people.
I can see how lower numbers get contentious but at the same time I would be willing to try out Ver-like numbers to see how I fare.
If games keep filling up, then keep rolling with them.
You might get different types of players in your games, but if it brings out more people or brings back more people here, then I don't see what the problem is. I mean, I'm looking at the queues, and there's 1-2 games up on the list in all categories. Even a D1-only restriction might not be so bad either.
Just saying.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 12 2015 23:20 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 12:15 Crossfire99 wrote:
Honestly, it just depends on the players and hosts. Host more post count restriction games if needed. If people play and enjoy them, then continue to host them, if not, don't. Simple as that. If I recall right, Carol had a number of people coming out of the woodwork, not sure though how many were attracted to the game because of the post restriction or just because Palmar is an awesome host had an awesome co-host.
ftfy. All plam's best games have me as sidekick. confirmed.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy?
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I think it just depends if you are the wagon or pushing a wagon a post count restriction really hurts you in some regards
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11589 Posts
Patisserie de Chocolate
Oh you slimy motherfucker.
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On February 13 2015 00:13 kitaman27 wrote:
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy?
Why would you include it in the default OP? Just host some games with it/try it out if you think it is a good idea but I don't see any need to make it a general rule.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On February 13 2015 00:20 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 00:13 kitaman27 wrote:
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy? Why would you include it in the default OP? Just host some games with it/try it out if you think it is a good idea but I don't see any need to make it a general rule.
Well we have a generic statement "Spam is not tolerated" in the OP.
If HTS wanted to warn Eden for his 40 page filter, there isn't really any clarification for what is considered spam. Some may consider it unfair if a player is warned for breaking a rule that is fuzzy in its interpretation. A general idea for when players should be asked to tone it down, yet a compromise that should not limit players with a high post style may help in that regard.
I guess it comes down to what the majority of people would prefer. If the large majority is in favor then it could be included in the OP and removed at the hosts discretion or if the large majority is against it then it could be excluded from the OP and included at the hosts discretion.
Also would people consider 10-12 pages reasonable? Are there situations where you are up for lynch or pushing a lynch and you feel that 200-240 posts is not an adequate amount to work with? I'd say 25-50 posts would serve, so that seems like it really would be pushing the upper limits, though perhaps some feel otherwise.
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On February 13 2015 00:32 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 00:20 justanothertownie wrote:On February 13 2015 00:13 kitaman27 wrote:
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy? Why would you include it in the default OP? Just host some games with it/try it out if you think it is a good idea but I don't see any need to make it a general rule. Well we have a generic statement "Spam is not tolerated" in the OP. If HTS wanted to warn Eden for his 40 page filter, there isn't really any clarification for what is considered spam. Some may consider it unfair if a player is warned for breaking a rule that is fuzzy in its interpretation. A general idea for when players should be asked to tone it down, yet a compromise that should not limit players with a high post style may help in that regard.
The problem here is that having a big filter does NOT necessarily mean that you are spamming. In my personal opinion what Eden did WAS borderline spamming at some points but that is really rare.
"Spam is not tolerated" does not mean people aren't allowed to have huge filters. It means people should be talking about the game and not about stuff that has nothing to do with it.
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On February 13 2015 00:13 kitaman27 wrote:
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy?
Palmar had it lower and I was thinking using his cutoffs that he used in Carol. It was reasonable for pretty much everyone except sicklucker and Holyflare.
Palmar had 3-4 pages during the day, 1 page (20 posts) during the night. Exceptions to this rule were if people were getting wagoned (and if a mod reads his game he should know from day to day who is falling into this category) or were using up a large quota to defend. I think there were a few warnings for exceeding 80 posts/day.
That was a large normal, not sure what minis should be.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
that's not for every game though HtS.
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On February 13 2015 00:32 kitaman27 wrote:
Well we have a generic statement "Spam is not tolerated" in the OP.
If HTS wanted to warn Eden for his 40 page filter, there isn't really any clarification for what is considered spam. Some may consider it unfair if a player is warned for breaking a rule that is fuzzy in its interpretation. A general idea for when players should be asked to tone it down, yet a compromise that should not limit players with a high post style may help in that regard.
I guess it comes down to what the majority of people would prefer. If the large majority is in favor then it could be included in the OP and removed at the hosts discretion or if the large majority is against it then it could be excluded from the OP and included at the hosts discretion.
Also would people consider 10-12 pages reasonable? Are there situations where you are up for lynch or pushing a lynch and you feel that 200-240 posts is not an adequate amount to work with? I'd say 25-50 posts would serve, so that seems like it really would be pushing the upper limits, though perhaps some feel otherwise.
Well Kita, when I focused on the top post-count people for possible issues, I looked for people with multiple posts saying the same thing. I saw Marv taking up multiple posts piecing arguments together with quotes, I think someone else was using most of his posts (JAT?) to engage in conversation with others, etc. I didn't see anything that I felt was abusing postcount. Eden did engage in the "Kill X" campaign for a few posts but it was 1-2 posts and not 20+ like Palmar did at a stretch.
There was some banter early D1 but that was standard, some trolling by a few individuals but it wasn't extended (>1 page) to the point I think it deserved a warning.
If I could have done anything I think I would have noted a blanket reminder to all players to condense the one-liners but that's the furthest I could have taken that without interfering in players playing the game.
I think regardless of postcount restriction or not, the hosts just need to pay attention and be reading their games, and obviously it's a bit more critical when there is a restriction.
I wound up warning Eden actually, but it was a behaviour warning, and nothing to do with his postcount.
Towards the end of D2, Marv did take a few pages pushing Holyflare's lynch, I don't think it was so much that it would have exceeded a 4 page cap. I could be wrong on that. He was in and out so he had spurts of posting.
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On February 13 2015 00:41 marvellosity wrote:
that's not for every game though HtS.
I know it's not for every game, but that was just an example where I thought it was effective. I'm not suggesting at all that Palmar does it for all games nor should that be a universal standard. Just something that I felt was reasonable given how gameplay played out.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
right, but kita was talking about a blanket rulechange, not what you can implement occasionally.
Carol was pretty good, it was actually a high postcount game, but there was very little spam - just almost everyone was active.
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Gah, then I misread what he meant, he actually wants to change the OP or redefine what spam is. Hmmm....
On February 13 2015 00:54 marvellosity wrote:
Carol was pretty good, it was actually a high postcount game, but there was very little spam - just almost everyone was active.
....which is why I think the standards you two used were effective, especially for a large normal.
I remember D1 people were posting fluffy things and got excited on the flavour, but no one really went off the deep end even with pushing lynches. I don't think any cutoff should be blanket, but based on how the game played out, it would be a good starting point for other hosts to use from time to time if they wanted.
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For a blanket rulechange...
10-12 might not be so bad. I'd have to think about it more, but maybe some of the more exp players can comment...
(I think Helvetica hit 15 pages tunnelling someone D1 in Imperial?)
Eden and I had 14 pages each D1 in Hammertime. I rarely post like that, but I was using a lot of one-liners that game.
Theoretically I could have been asked to condense.
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On February 13 2015 01:01 Half the Sky wrote:
For a blanket rulechange...
10-12 might not be so bad. I'd have to think about it more, but maybe some of the more exp players can comment...
(I think Helvetica hit 15 pages tunnelling someone D1 in Imperial?)
Eden and I had 14 pages each D1 in Hammertime. I rarely post like that, but I was using a lot of one-liners that game.
Theoretically I could have been asked to condense.
We don't need a blanket rulechange and there is 0 problem with posting oneliners.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
You should set up an in game policy clan and be sheriffs that policy lynch spammers if it bothers you that much :p
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If there's really some kind of issue with people not wanting to play in high-postcount games, then there's always the option of running post restriction games with regularity.
There is nothing wrong with people playing with high-postcount styles and those players simply shouldn't be held back by virtue of other people not wanting to read their posts.
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lol this discussion is good, but in the end i think its up to the hosts to experiment with different rules if they perceive the post count to be a problem. A blanket rule change is a bit too invasive in my opinion, and if the player base generally prefers games with post restrictions theyll fill up faster and there will be a natural invrease in how often those games are iffered
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On a side note, at one point I was working on a database query that takes HF and marv's abnormally high mafia win rate compared to their respectable, but only slight above average town win rate, taking into account the odds of rolling both alignments to try to show that it is in town's best interest to lynch them at a certain point in the game. Unfortunately I never finished it to see if the numbers worked out, but I might need to revisit it
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
d3+ not dead probably best lynch time unless a bunch of silly ppl claim blues
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I thought about this more, I really think it should be case-by-case at the hosts' discretion. I don't think a blanket change is going to do us any good.
People who want to host should keep an eye out on what games are currently running and just make sure there's enough options for everyone. If they want to impose absolute caps, then that's on them.
Like if I see no restricted games and I'm next in the queue, I probably will run one using Palmar's cutoffs to see what happens. If I already see a post-restricted game, then I will probably not have any in mine, but just be vigilant on spam and excessive one-liners.
Also JAT, I probably should have added in my previous post, no one-liners aren't bad but the co-host in that game (Cephiro) had put out a blanket warning on spam and one-liners. So someone obviously had a problem with it.
EDIT: Damn you Rasputin, you ninjed me! Great minds think alike <3
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On February 13 2015 01:24 kitaman27 wrote:On a side note, at one point I was working on a database query that takes HF and marv's abnormally high mafia win rate compared to their respectable, but only slight above average town win rate, taking into account the odds of rolling both alignments to try to show that it is in town's best interest to lynch them at a certain point in the game. Unfortunately I never finished it to see if the numbers worked out, but I might need to revisit it
Well, marv is just getting carried all the time...
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
ahem. not ALL the time.
most of the time.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
obviously my very presence inspires my scumteams to greatness.
edit: my sometimes very brief presence that is
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On February 13 2015 01:31 marvellosity wrote:
obviously my very presence inspires my scumteams to greatness.
edit: my sometimes very brief presence that is
Very brief.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games.
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On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote:
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games.
This a 1000 times.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote:
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote:
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games.
I think Artanis and BH have minimal activity standards in their rulesets - and BH said in the Horn obs qt that lurking can be a legitimate strategy. That's what I've heard.
I think that can be solved personally through increased use of vigilantes in games or town being willing to policy vote people more.
EDIT: I realise policy voting may result in mostly townies getting lynched, but I think people need to weigh the consequences of lurker scum being around in lylo. I don't think enough people do that.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Lurking is a legit strategy for mafia
mainly because of the moron towns who sign up and don't play
if all townies tried, lurking wouldn't be a legit strat
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:35 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote:
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games. I think Artanis and BH have minimal activity standards in their rulesets - and BH said in the Horn obs qt that lurking can be a legitimate strategy. That's what I've heard. I think that can be solved personally through increased use of vigilantes in games or town being willing to policy vote people more.
So what you're saying is that people who don't play the way that you feel is right should be policy lynched or shot? Why are we even having a discussion about the opposite having a RULE change or being capped then???
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:38 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:35 Half the Sky wrote:On February 13 2015 01:33 Holyflare wrote:
I don't really understand why people have a hate for the people that post a shit tonne of posts and want to restrict people that post a lot but have absolutely no qualms with the people that post absolutely 0 things of relevance and afk the entire game because those people seriously ruin games. I think Artanis and BH have minimal activity standards in their rulesets - and BH said in the Horn obs qt that lurking can be a legitimate strategy. That's what I've heard. I think that can be solved personally through increased use of vigilantes in games or town being willing to policy vote people more. So what you're saying is that people who don't play the way that you feel is right should be policy lynched or shot? Why are we even having a discussion about the opposite having a RULE change or being capped then???
100% inconsistent
##Vote: HtS
slamdunk
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Disclaimer: The following is long, inaccurate, biased, inconclusive, generally pointless. The content is at best speculative but more likely just fictional.
So here's some history.
Did you guys know that back in the day, the top town players generally did not have the longest filters? You can get some insight in what was considered the norm on TL by reading Ver's guide, but the gist of what was considered strong town play, but people like qatol, ver, foolishness and many more from the very early era of TL Mafia were generally good at reading the thread, detecting things that seem off and making cases based on those.
You've all seen it, it still happens every game. Someone summarizes a bunch of points and concludes something about the alignment of whoever he is analyzing. It's a pretty cool way of doing things. However as people tried to adopt this style there was kind of a switch that happened. I don't know exactly when, or how, and it probably happened gradually, but at some point the conversation started replacing the case.
You see the cases almost became too much to deal with, I remember there being multiple cases, even by the same people in the same day. I think I once caught a guy being mafia for making like 4 cases in a single day (I only made 3, so I was town). And so as the old guard of players started playing less and less there was space for a new generation of players to change the style of play. The old guard has an entire chapter of history that would be very fun to read about, but generally the protactinium incident and the influx of new players over the following months ended an era.
This new generation of players created it's own mythos of players, and just like how you sometimes hear old guard players mentioned in games today (Ace, Ver, Qatol, Foolishness, BC etc etc etc) you also hear the name of the 1st generation players (Palmar, Sandroba, Syllogism, mig, Curu, VisceraEyes etc). However, this also created a style change on TL. Due to how well this 1st generation knew each other, we started adopting a conversational based style that had previously generally been looked down upon on TL.
The conversation style was effective, but it wasn't until marv came in that it got perfected. The 1st generation players were some kind of a hybrid in a transitional stage. When marv rolled around that all changed. The conversation style became the dominant playstyle on TL mafia, and it made the games longer than what we'd seen before. It's a fun fact that the 1st generation players were often considered spammers back in the day, but it's nothing compared to what marv and the following generations did.
An important difference in styles, is that the 1st generation players mostly used conversation to investigate the insider group, whereas by the 3rd generation (defined below) everyone was being dragged into conversations by the leaders of town. The 1st generation would usually make cases outside of the core group. Syllogism is probably the most dominant town player from this era, and you can still see remnants of his play in how marv plays today.
Marv is probably the most influential player on TL since Ver. And soon he had coached up a bunch of other players who could keep up with this style. iamp, DP, hapa, prome were part of what I'm going to call the 3rd generation of players and the conversational style has ever since dominated TL mafia. It is a very effective style for many reasons, but it also requires more intimacy between the players than the case based style. The thing is, the conversational style sort of improves itself, which is why it is so hard to break out of.
By the rise of the modern generation of players the cases had basically disappeared, or become so rare as the primary pushing and hunting mechanic that they were irrelevant. Players like Koshi, JAT, HF, rayn very rarely use some kind of a case as a central method to their scumhunting methods. Despite being chatty, Hapa was very much a player who still built cases regularly to push things.
I don't think there have been any major developments since then in playstyle, or at least we're not far enough from it to notice trends on a longer scale. But it's quite clear that gradually, over the last 5 years, the casemakers have been replaced by the conversationalists. But why is that? Let's look at the style a bit.
Being conversational requires extreme activity, and all that activity leads to better knowing the people you play with. Better knowing the people you play with leads to being able to read them based on things like mood, posting style much better. If you tried to employ the conversation style in a forum full of people you do not know, the results will never be as good as with people you do know, and the drop off is higher than the case style.
Notice how almost all of the heaviest spammers on TL, at least since marv, are also considered some of the best players on TL. This is simply because all this spam requires an extreme amount of time invested in the game, and I've said it multiple times before that I believe the biggest factor in mafia is how much time you put in. Of course it helps that these players are generally very visible in games and tend to be leaders of their faction.
As more and more people adopt the conversational style it becomes harder to change the norm as a player that doesn't want to use it as their primary style. And the more conversational style players there are, the harder it becomes to break into the circle, because of the sheer amount of posts being written. It's just a hard circle to break out of, and why should we? It's fairly effective and quite enjoyable to the people who can keep up, who also happen to be the people controlling the thread.
The conversational style is extremely hard to mimic for inexperienced mafia players. This is another reason as to why it is so effective. It's just hard to hold a fast paced conversation when you're weighing every word, thinking about what your read should be on this guy, whereas the town on the other side is hardly thinking. But I think mafia players are catching up to the style, and have possibly started abusing it.
It's possible that the style becomes unsustainable. It may even be that right now. Imperial mafia shattered records and ended up being a terrible game for town. I don't know what the future is, but I know things won't change overnight. Whatever trend shows up is not going to be immediately recognizable by us, it's only in the longer term that we will recognize a change has happened.
That's not to say the case style is better, far from it. I believe both styles have their merit. I was part of the group that initially started moving away from the case style. And we have indeed seen some recent success with the case style, I recall Damdred wrecking mafia on day 1 with a classic case and a non-spammy style of play. The old guard did have conversations and the modern generation does make cases. The emphasis has simply shifted noticably.
Of course generational and trend studies based on very little facts and more just feeling about what has happened over the years are very inaccurate. And I also believe there have been mini-trends aside from this larger one. There's also a bunch of players who don't quite fit the generations as I've defined them. Think of Gmarshal and Kita somewhere between the old guard and the 1st generation. Bugs and Blazinghand are both pre-marv but probably not quite part of the 1st generation. In fact maybe they deserve their own section with an experimental extremely tunnely and at times hostile style of early conversation. There are plenty of other interesting mini trends. The modern generation has started searching extremely aggressively for contradictions (raise hands if you've seen hf or rayn paint one sentence in green and another in red and try to show that they contradict each other).
I think the latest mini-trend may be tone reads? Heavily influenced by robik and various other players from voice mafia, but nothing under the sun is new. Sandroba was quite good at recognizing tone many years ago.
So what's next? We have a bunch of rising players on TL mafia and they aren't all the same. Damdred leans towards cases, Eden is more spammy and GB and Robik kind of fit neither category. Who knows? Some may quit, some may hang around. Maybe there's a player in the newbies right now that is going to revolutionize how we play mafia? It's a fascinating history and it's a privilege to be able to watch it unfold.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I used to make cases and found that nobody every fucking read them so I ditched cases and chatted to people to prove my point instead.
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On February 13 2015 01:45 Holyflare wrote:
I used to make cases and found that nobody every fucking read them so I ditched cases and chatted to people to prove my point instead.
It's the nature of the conversation style. If you can't keep up, you're screwed
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
I love reading stuff like that.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I dunno my first like 10ish games? were all long posts and then I started rolling mafia a shit tonne and found that I couldn't keep up with my town sized posts and content and switched my town game to better my mafia game too. I think that's why I won a bunch of mafia games in that period because of the amount of stuff I just churned out.
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On February 13 2015 01:48 marvellosity wrote:
I love reading stuff like that.
Yeah, because it says you are influential.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:49 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:48 marvellosity wrote:
I love reading stuff like that. Yeah, because it says you are influential.
Well, that's always nice :p but it's interesting in any case ^^
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:49 Holyflare wrote:
I dunno my first like 10ish games? were all long posts and then I started rolling mafia a shit tonne and found that I couldn't keep up with my town sized posts and content and switched my town game to better my mafia game too. I think that's why I won a bunch of mafia games in that period because of the amount of stuff I just churned out.
yeah you conformed to my style, bitch
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:49 Holyflare wrote:
I dunno my first like 10ish games? were all long posts and then I started rolling mafia a shit tonne and found that I couldn't keep up with my town sized posts and content and switched my town game to better my mafia game too. I think that's why I won a bunch of mafia games in that period because of the amount of stuff I just churned out. yeah you conformed to my style, bitch
i'm an independent woman who don't need no man
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
haha i didn't even realise i did one of my newbies with jat???
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On February 13 2015 01:54 Holyflare wrote:
haha i didn't even realise i did one of my newbies with jat???
Yep. Was the only newbie I ever played. Slam and Koshi were also part of it.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
is that the one where i harassed a guy until he conceded lol?
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
see, looking back is fun :d
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Marv helped me confirm some timelines. To me everyone who started after bugs is just another random newbie.
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On February 13 2015 01:56 Holyflare wrote:
is that the one where i harassed a guy until he conceded lol?
Yes. After we lynched mafia slam by last minute wagoning him together with LM.
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You guys realize that most people afk due to the ridiculous amount of reading there is to do? My filter sizes have gone down and down as games get larger and larger because I can't post anything relevant when the game is so incredibly difficult to read. So it's a cycle really.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 13 2015 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
You guys realize that most people afk due to the ridiculous amount of reading there is to do? My filter sizes have gone down and down as games get larger and larger because I can't post anything relevant when the game is so incredibly difficult to read. So it's a cycle really.
well you say that but you were in the second largest(?) game on tl and had like 16 pages of filter so you're perfectly capable of reading and contributing. If you don't have enough time to keep up with a thread and see people like marv/me/eden/jat etc who you know are going to be posting ridiculous page counts then you should rethink joining that game or petition for a post capped game queue where people with less time can play
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I don't even mind having a seperate queue like [M][N][C] for capped mini normals or whatever it is, I'm sure a lot of people would fill them as well as normal mini's but I really don't think you should change the way minis are right now at all.
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On February 13 2015 02:03 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
You guys realize that most people afk due to the ridiculous amount of reading there is to do? My filter sizes have gone down and down as games get larger and larger because I can't post anything relevant when the game is so incredibly difficult to read. So it's a cycle really. well you say that but you were in the second largest(?) game on tl and had like 16 pages of filter so you're perfectly capable of reading and contributing. If you don't have enough time to keep up with a thread and see people like marv/me/eden/jat etc who you know are going to be posting ridiculous page counts then you should rethink joining that game or petition for a post capped game queue where people with less time can play
those arent the types of players I have a problem with
reading an entire page of one liners and HIJOLE makes me laugh and close the thread and act myself why im even in this game.
like when 10 pages go by and nothing even remotely interesting is said, that is the problem. Not players like marv/you/jat.
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Palmar confirmed pretty cool guy for being that old.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 13 2015 02:09 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:03 Holyflare wrote:On February 13 2015 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote:
You guys realize that most people afk due to the ridiculous amount of reading there is to do? My filter sizes have gone down and down as games get larger and larger because I can't post anything relevant when the game is so incredibly difficult to read. So it's a cycle really. well you say that but you were in the second largest(?) game on tl and had like 16 pages of filter so you're perfectly capable of reading and contributing. If you don't have enough time to keep up with a thread and see people like marv/me/eden/jat etc who you know are going to be posting ridiculous page counts then you should rethink joining that game or petition for a post capped game queue where people with less time can play those arent the types of players I have a problem with reading an entire page of one liners and HIJOLE makes me laugh and close the thread and act myself why im even in this game. like when 10 pages go by and nothing even remotely interesting is said, that is the problem. Not players like marv/you/jat.
oh well yes I think everyone has a problem with that :/ think that falls under spamming though but nobody every enforces it for some reason
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
the chupazi is strong with this one
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Alakaslam is like the last person I will forget from this site when I suffer from that disease that makes you forget things. He is a genius.
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On February 13 2015 02:16 Koshi wrote:
Alakaslam is like the last person I will forget from this site when I suffer from that disease that makes you forget things. He is a genius.
His SVENGALI was a success.
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I agree with HF that I don't think we should artificially change anything by imposing restrictions.
But I also don't agree people shouldn't sign up if they can't keep up. A player who writes an amount that every 24 hours will take a normal person something like 30 minutes to 1 hour just to read that person's posts, must also apply the common sense that almost no one in the game is going to actually read his entire thing.
To someone who plays one hour per 24 hours of mafia, it's a much better use of their time to just read the manageable filters and just guess the afk people and the spammers. I do this all the time. I skim and partially read the filters of people like JAT and yourself HF. I actually treat high volume posters and nearly afk posters almost exactly the same. I assume I'm going to be working off incomplete information, and go from there.
On a random note, maybe the filter button is our worst enemy
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I don't like Palmar anymore, he didn't even mention me whilst I've been playing since 2008
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On February 13 2015 02:18 Palmar wrote:I agree with HF that I don't think we should artificially change anything by imposing restrictions. But I also don't agree people shouldn't sign up if they can't keep up. A player who writes an amount that every 24 hours will take a normal person something like 30 minutes to 1 hour just to read that person's posts, must also apply the common sense that almost no one in the game is going to actually read his entire thing. To someone who plays one hour per 24 hours of mafia, it's a much better use of their time to just read the manageable filters and just guess the afk people and the spammers. I do this all the time. I skim and partially read the filters of people like JAT and yourself HF. I actually treat high volume posters and nearly afk posters almost exactly the same. I assume I'm going to be working off incomplete information, and go from there. On a random note, maybe the filter button is our worst enemy
Filter button is great but I rarely use it
With little time I think it's best to chat with whoever is live with you. Then at least you can figure them out with some snap reactive speech.
If they'll tango.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
Artanis, we did discuss you on irc.
You were deemed irrelevant.
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Policy lynching both of you from now on.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
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On February 13 2015 02:16 Koshi wrote:
Alakaslam is like the last person I will forget from this site when I suffer from that disease that makes you forget things. He is a genius.
Also, Alzheimer's
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I will get amazing reception in Holtville
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
I guess that means when I drop an awesome case and everyone votes with me, the mafia thread is temporarily turned into the most wireless enabled place on the planet
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 13 2015 02:43 marvellosity wrote:I guess that means when I drop an awesome case and everyone votes with me, the mafia thread is temporarily turned into the most wireless enabled place on the planet
![[image loading]](http://media.giphy.com/media/v2mOkGQgEQtDW/giphy.gif)
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On February 13 2015 02:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I don't like Palmar anymore, he didn't even mention me whilst I've been playing since 2008
Pfft, he didn't even mention me with hapa/prome/iamp/etc who all started at the same time as me.
H8, Plammar.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Well said Palmar! :D
I'm repeating a lot of what you said here, but this is how I divide things (while mentioning the two very deserving individuals above that you disrespected with your omission):
From 2008-2010:
The Bourgeoisie (Ver, Incognito, Qatol,Flamewheel, Radfield, iNfuNdiBuLuM, Pyr, L, Ace, BC)
Defining Characteristics:
-Strong analytical cases backed up by logic
-Persuasive and strongly opinionated in regards to how the game should be played
-Perhaps you could make the argument that this group could be split in two based on style: A few of the earlier names preferring large walls of texts to convince others, while the later names preferring a more aggressive bullying style
-Sometimes a bit stubborn and hesitant to listen to the opinions outside their group
The Proletariats and Court Jesters (Amber, chaoser, RoL, BrownBear, Pandain, Opz, Artanis, Bill Murray, chezinu, Caller, bumatlarge, Foolishness)
Defining Characteristics:
-All capable players, but always held back by the dominance of the upper group. Foolishness was probably an exception who eventually rose to the upper group
-Adopted unique posting styles placing a high value on entertaining others through their posts
-Perfected the art of trolling while still making valuable contributions to the game
2010-2011
The Doctor Helvetica Baby Boomers (Meapak, Node, Kenpachi, Kita, Wiggles, Coag, Jackal, GMarshal, GGQ)
Defining Characteristics:
-A large group of players that started playing within a few months period around the time of Haunted and Insane.
-Initially viewed the Bourgeoisie as living legends, but friction eventually developed between the two groups after accusations of elitism. Eventually most of the Bourgeoisie stopped playing for various reasons, while a lot of the Proletariats stuck around for another couple years and stepped into the veteran role.
-Frequently made use of post by post analysis style posts that were less focused than before but provided more specific examples, concluding with broad themes that were common among those posts. This style was strongly looked down upon by others due to the size of a single post.
2011-2012
The New Kids on the Block (Palmar, Sandroba, Syllogism, mig, Curu, VisceraEyes, prplhz, Toad, bugs, GreYMisT)
Defining Characteristics:
-Popularized the idea of using "meta" to compare a player's current play to their play in past games and draw conclusions based on the similarities or differences.
-Played so many games together that they developed frighteningly accurate reads on each other that were not very clear to the groups that came before or after them.
-The role a "thread bully" became popular with several players in this list, similar to the style used by earlier players like Ace, L, BC. Aggressively pushed their views and tunneled on targets that refused to listen.
2012-Current
-A plague of dirty spammers that I refuse to acknowledge plus austin
-Use a conversational style to maximize information
-Place strong value on "feel" reads, rather than well defined cases
-Started playing around the time that newbie games became popular developing strong familiarity with each other similar to the previous group, but specific to a certain set of newbies such as hapa/prome/iamp/Keirathi or the video mafia peeps.
-Showed a strong preference for mini games, while large games and themed games began to fall out of favor
-Popularized the idea of a last minute "wagon of justice"
-A small sub-group of players emerged that place zero value on convincing others, instead focusing on identifying the appropriate players to sheep
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I'm touched I was mentioned!
I love cases honestly I love reading them and making them, sometimes i'm wrong sometimes i'm right when I write them but I think they can really destroy scum but I've found they aren't really recepted well sometimes.
For instance I used to make much bigger cases than I do now, with quotes etc., and I had to totally stop that to get people to read what I wrote. Mostly as HF would put it its just boring, so I had to go with more of a mainstream paragraph form and make people fact check it themselves.
Its effective but people still don't listen to me as much as people who just conversate, sometimes its hard meh.
But that was a great read
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I usually deal with people not posting much by warning them, and if they don't shape up, modkilling them. It's usually very easy to meet minimum requirements in my games. I might just be more verbal about stopping people from spamming. I've given warnings for spamming before. Perhaps more vigilance is in order. I don't know if this has really been a problem in my games anyways, and to an extent things like "post less in general" can't be enforced by hosts easily. It would have to be something players want to do.
I guess what I'll do is focus on not spamming in my own play from now on. Don't expect more than a 10 page from me in any games going further barring unusual circumstances.
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On February 13 2015 04:16 Blazinghand wrote:
I guess what I'll do is focus on not spamming in my own play from now on. Don't expect more than a 10 page from me in any games going further barring unusual circumstances.
See, this is something I don't really like.
If you ever have something relevant to say to the thread, but then you think "meh, I've posted too much, I'll just hold on to it", then you're doing it wrong.
Maybe your definition of relevant to the thread could a bit stricter in general, but if you have something relevant to say, say it.
*To be clear, I mean the global "you", not you specifically.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:21 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:16 Blazinghand wrote:
I guess what I'll do is focus on not spamming in my own play from now on. Don't expect more than a 10 page from me in any games going further barring unusual circumstances. See, this is something I don't really like. If you ever have something relevant to say to the thread, but then you think "meh, I've posted too much, I'll just hold on to it", then you're doing it wrong. Maybe your definition of relevant to the thread could a bit stricter in general, but if you have something relevant to say, say it. *To be clear, I mean the global "you", not you specifically.
I'm pretty sure I can easily catch any scumteam with 200 posts, so it's a non-issue. 90% of my posts are me like quoting someone and saying "lol ur mom" or something anyways so don't worry
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
kitaman 100% succeeding in playing Grumpy Old Man role
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
-A small sub-group of players emerged that place zero value on convincing others, instead focusing on identifying the appropriate players to sheep
the best skill to have
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On February 13 2015 06:03 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +-A small sub-group of players emerged that place zero value on convincing others, instead focusing on identifying the appropriate players to sheep the best skill to have
This is really true and an under-appreciated skill. Too often, however, people look to vets who they trust to be good at the game (regardless of their read on that vet), as opposed to sheeping their TRs who have a strong grasp on the game.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
It's a skill all on its own identifying a good case. Sometimes it's more obvious than others. Like that game Damdred made a case on Eden, no-one had really thought about Eden but when Damdred made the case most people read it and went "yeah, that's right".
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On February 13 2015 05:58 marvellosity wrote:
kitaman 100% succeeding in playing Grumpy Old Man role
Get off my lawn!
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On February 13 2015 06:27 marvellosity wrote:
It's a skill all on its own identifying a good case. Sometimes it's more obvious than others. Like that game Damdred made a case on Eden, no-one had really thought about Eden but when Damdred made the case most people read it and went "yeah, that's right".
This is basically on par with you trying to claim that your case on plammmar was good in Heavyweight Champ 2 and you got him lynched, when I was the one that called him out in the first 5 posts. I did the same thing with Eden zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz boring marv. BORING
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On February 13 2015 03:40 kitaman27 wrote:
-A plague of dirty spammers that I refuse to acknowledge plus austin
I'll take this as a complement or something
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On February 13 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:40 kitaman27 wrote:
-A plague of dirty spammers that I refuse to acknowledge plus austin I'll take this as a complement or something
It is. Kita just a jealous ol' sourpuss.
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On February 13 2015 00:13 kitaman27 wrote:
Would people be opposed to something like a 10-12 (?) page filter per cycle limit? Nothing that would inhibit players in 95% of cases but it would serve as a general guideline for when hosts should try to draw the line in situations where things get so out of hand that everyone else is miserable? Maybe it could be included in the default OP under the spam section, but removed at the host discretion if they are fine with a game like Imperial while kinda giving players a warning ahead of time they things may get crazy?
It's bad to make rules that force a behavioural change. You have to selectively manipulate that shit if you want people posting less.
E.g create setup mechanics that give more benefits to those that post less, but do so clearly, with good posts, and the like. Make the mechanics hinder those that spam with lots of fluff
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On February 13 2015 06:36 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:40 kitaman27 wrote:
-A plague of dirty spammers that I refuse to acknowledge plus austin I'll take this as a complement or something
I kid. I <3 each and everyone one of you.
+ Show Spoiler +Except the ones that I don't
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Kitaman should do HS mafia 2 so we can spasm it
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On February 13 2015 07:40 Damdred wrote:
Kitaman should do HS mafia 2 so we can spasm it
:o
I'm thinking either Personality 3 or Heroes of the Storm will be the next large themed game that I host, but either would probably be a way off.
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So the main reason i stopped playing was too much damn time to keep up with conversation... skimming/reading thread is easy but it just becomes way too cumbersome at some point. I imagine it was that way for a lot of my newbie class too (who, just from looking around the forum have almost all left after a few entrances to non-newbie games).
Don't get me wrong, I love that style and IMO its the best way to play. After a while though it just wasn't fun anymore and that's what matters.
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On February 13 2015 09:13 Balla24 wrote:
So the main reason i stopped playing was too much damn time to keep up with conversation... skimming/reading thread is easy but it just becomes way too cumbersome at some point. I imagine it was that way for a lot of my newbie class too (who, just from looking around the forum have almost all left after a few entrances to non-newbie games).
Don't get me wrong, I love that style and IMO its the best way to play. After a while though it just wasn't fun anymore and that's what matters.
you know, you can still come hang out in IRC with me.
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On February 13 2015 09:13 Balla24 wrote:
So the main reason i stopped playing was too much damn time to keep up with conversation... skimming/reading thread is easy but it just becomes way too cumbersome at some point. I imagine it was that way for a lot of my newbie class too (who, just from looking around the forum have almost all left after a few entrances to non-newbie games).
Don't get me wrong, I love that style and IMO its the best way to play. After a while though it just wasn't fun anymore and that's what matters.
I won't spam too much if you play fwiw.
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I am just sad that with the current style there's no way in hell that people like Nazgul (the God who brought us filter) or Sheth or maybe even Plexa come play again. It's just too much to keep up. I always liked games with much of activity. I wonder why nobody hosted a Real Time Mafia RoL came up with again. I think it could work out miraculously with today's metagame.
The other side of the coin is also the newbies: as for seniors it is hard to come back to the game because of time constraints it is as hard for newbies to get in because of time needed to fall in love with the game. After falling in love with the game they need to better their skills and that's games upon games to improve. It's a lot of time measured in months and it should not be surprising that people can't keep up.
Also I should apologize to iGrok for being a dick. I am not sure if I ever apologized, so here it is. Sorry iGrok, we should've handled things differently.
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On February 13 2015 12:34 Town Puppy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 09:13 Balla24 wrote:
So the main reason i stopped playing was too much damn time to keep up with conversation... skimming/reading thread is easy but it just becomes way too cumbersome at some point. I imagine it was that way for a lot of my newbie class too (who, just from looking around the forum have almost all left after a few entrances to non-newbie games).
Don't get me wrong, I love that style and IMO its the best way to play. After a while though it just wasn't fun anymore and that's what matters. I won't spam too much if you play fwiw.
liar
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On February 13 2015 13:57 OnceKing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 12:34 Town Puppy wrote:On February 13 2015 09:13 Balla24 wrote:
So the main reason i stopped playing was too much damn time to keep up with conversation... skimming/reading thread is easy but it just becomes way too cumbersome at some point. I imagine it was that way for a lot of my newbie class too (who, just from looking around the forum have almost all left after a few entrances to non-newbie games).
Don't get me wrong, I love that style and IMO its the best way to play. After a while though it just wasn't fun anymore and that's what matters. I won't spam too much if you play fwiw. liar
[audible whimpering]
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I'm actually actively trying to curb my spammy style. I think it actually helps me post better and think more posting less. It's a very hard habit to break.
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On February 13 2015 07:43 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 07:40 Damdred wrote:
Kitaman should do HS mafia 2 so we can spasm it :o I'm thinking either Personality 3 or Heroes of the Storm will be the next large themed game that I host, but either would probably be a way off.
Personality 3 plzplzplzplzzplz
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How about a mechanism where the more posts you have the less vote power you have?
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On February 13 2015 12:58 Kurumi wrote:
I am just sad that with the current style there's no way in hell that people like Nazgul (the God who brought us filter) or Sheth or maybe even Plexa come play again. It's just too much to keep up. I always liked games with much of activity. I wonder why nobody hosted a Real Time Mafia RoL came up with again. I think it could work out miraculously with today's metagame.
The other side of the coin is also the newbies: as for seniors it is hard to come back to the game because of time constraints it is as hard for newbies to get in because of time needed to fall in love with the game. After falling in love with the game they need to better their skills and that's games upon games to improve. It's a lot of time measured in months and it should not be surprising that people can't keep up.
Also I should apologize to iGrok for being a dick. I am not sure if I ever apologized, so here it is. Sorry iGrok, we should've handled things differently.
Very much this. Some ppl are naturally just going to love a game like this where you're interacting with people trying to figure things out. (Case and point: me) And won't really care about the time commitment anyway. But for those who don't really enjoy games until they fully understand/are getting kinda good at it, the learning curve is vicious, especially with how much time and effort it takes to go through games like Imperial, or minis like the one we just played.
That's an excellent reason to offer more games with restricted post counts on a regular basis, if only as a transition between newbie/student games to the huge, spammy games HF and marv favor.
HF, I get what you're saying about it not being necessary to read everything to find scum, but lol, depending on skill level and familiarity with the game, what's obvious to you or some of the other vets on just a skim won't be obvious to some of the rest of us Especially if it's based on meta.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
This feels like a problem that is like the end of the universe theory. Depending on the mass of the universe either gravity will be strong enough to slow the expansion down and eventually contract. Or the universe expands forever.
Currently the strongest d1 and probably d2 metric for towniness is activity. This means mafia spam more to show activity and therefore town feels they must respond likewise to avoid a ml. This isn't towns fault it is just the state of the game and this leads to massive games.
Now either town realises that activity is no longer the key metric and start evaluating post quality or something else to determine town d1 and therefore spamming is considered antitown , rather than just annoying. If this occurs mafia no longer spams and games become smaller.
Or we don't change mafia spam , town out spams because it is the pro town play in the current meta, so mafia spams. Until we end up with 300 page d1's.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On February 13 2015 16:15 rsoultin wrote:
That's an excellent reason to offer more games with restricted post counts on a regular basis, if only as a transition between newbie/student games to the huge, spammy games HF and marv favor.
.
I wouldn't say I favour huge games.
I just post a lot.
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On February 13 2015 19:00 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 16:15 rsoultin wrote:
That's an excellent reason to offer more games with restricted post counts on a regular basis, if only as a transition between newbie/student games to the huge, spammy games HF and marv favor.
. I wouldn't say I favour huge games. I just post a lot.
fair enough. the huge games y'all create, then? xP
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like the only big games recently have been horn, imperial, and carol. The rest have been moderate below 4000 posts most being sub 3000 post games. Is 3000 post games big over a period maybe 2 weeks. It's like reading 10 pages a day which isn't that much since most are just 1 liners anyway.
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On February 13 2015 16:15 rsoultin wrote:Very much this. Some ppl are naturally just going to love a game like this where you're interacting with people trying to figure things out. (Case and point: me) And won't really care about the time commitment anyway. But for those who don't really enjoy games until they fully understand/are getting kinda good at it, the learning curve is vicious, especially with how much time and effort it takes to go through games like Imperial, or minis like the one we just played. That's an excellent reason to offer more games with restricted post counts on a regular basis, if only as a transition between newbie/student games to the huge, spammy games HF and marv favor. HF, I get what you're saying about it not being necessary to read everything to find scum, but lol, depending on skill level and familiarity with the game, what's obvious to you or some of the other vets on just a skim won't be obvious to some of the rest of us Especially if it's based on meta.
100%.
As a player, I can hang with the spam. I can deal, assuming RL doesn't get too crazy for me. I just think having more options will benefit the community as a whole in terms of different people wanting to play/sticking around.
Also some people have busier lives as well, I think in Student V someone made the point that not all people have computer based jobs where they can post from work.
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lol was that someone me or jat? cause we both had that problem and it really hurts your game if youre scum...that and my mislynch record :/
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From an outsider's perspective, I tried to read Imperial and gave up at about Day 4 I think. The post volume of that was quite terrifying!
One of the things that is heartening though, coming to the site, is seeing so many people rereading and filter diving, and that's something that is appealing, particularly coming from a site where the meta was that many people barely read the thread at all. It's better by far to be in this direction, I think.
I guess I will try posting in my normal sort of volume and see if I get lynched for lurking or not
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On February 16 2015 04:22 Tere wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I tried to read Imperial and gave up at about Day 4 I think. The post volume of that was quite terrifying! One of the things that is heartening though, coming to the site, is seeing so many people rereading and filter diving, and that's something that is appealing, particularly coming from a site where the meta was that many people barely read the thread at all. It's better by far to be in this direction, I think. I guess I will try posting in my normal sort of volume and see if I get lynched for lurking or not
We'll be glad to lynch you LYNCH YOU WITH FIRE YOU SCUMMY LURKER!!!!!!!!! Welcome aboard!
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Heh.
Mind you you lot seem to do 48 / 24 and I am more used to 24/12 so I guess my site meta will be different anyhow :D
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Playing on phone raised activity.
I'm not even getting on the forums anymore because I still haven't got a new phone.
Anyway, here is my opinion: people are giving too much priority to "stablish their innocence" rather to "hunt mafia". Or they are just bored and want to shit chat (me).
IMO, the important thing here is to reevaluate town's objectives and how to achieve it. "Lynch mafia" is too generical. Will you be able to lynch mafia if you can't even read the game? No. Will you be able to lynch mafia just because you're spamming the thread? No. So there is no point in spamming.
People are playing the game alone. They post because they post. They don't have a clear objective when they post. And that's the problem.
That's why the question "How am I helping town posting this?" is so important.
Another question that is important is "How can I give this information with less words?" and "Is this really an important information?".
But considering "filter length" will continue high, we have to change what we understand by "activity"
Activity isn't posting a lot. Activity is clearly generating discussion or continuously trying to solve the game by re-reading it and reevaluating stuff.
So, a mafia can have a huge filter length and be idle, because he isn't even trying to solve the game.
Anyway, just putting some thoughts here.
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On February 17 2015 13:32 GlowingBear wrote:
Anyway, here is my opinion: people are giving too much priority to "stablish their innocence" rather to "hunt mafia". Or they are just bored and want to shit chat (me).
[...]
People are playing the game alone. They post because they post. They don't have a clear objective when they post. And that's the problem.
That's why the question "How am I helping town posting this?" is so important.
Another question that is important is "How can I give this information with less words?" and "Is this really an important information?".
Spot-on, I'm discussing this issue elsewhere (can't link it though) and I agree completely, especially with the boldface parts. I'm learning a lot about my play from this realization.
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I play a different game and try my darnedest to draw others in.
Sometimes it works
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i left because palmar is an asshole
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On February 17 2015 15:35 Eden1892 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 13:32 GlowingBear wrote:
Anyway, here is my opinion: people are giving too much priority to "stablish their innocence" rather to "hunt mafia". Or they are just bored and want to shit chat (me).
[...]
People are playing the game alone. They post because they post. They don't have a clear objective when they post. And that's the problem.
That's why the question "How am I helping town posting this?" is so important.
Another question that is important is "How can I give this information with less words?" and "Is this really an important information?".
Spot-on, I'm discussing this issue elsewhere (can't link it though) and I agree completely, especially with the boldface parts. I'm learning a lot about my play from this realization.
Not spot-on. If more people would actually establish their innocence then towns would have a much much easier time. People who can't be mislynched (like you in Horn) are the biggest pain in the ass for mafia.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
it's not really one of those either/or things, because one of (if not the) best ways to establish your innocence is to be obviously and genuinely hunting for mafia.
also some players (like me) just like to be chatty/have a joke sometimes. Which may not be "pure" in terms of the game, but I find playing mafia to be quite a social experience, and I wouldn't enjoy it so much if I couldn't enjoy people's company while I'm playing.
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On February 17 2015 20:09 marvellosity wrote:
it's not really one of those either/or things, because one of (if not the) best ways to establish your innocence is to be obviously and genuinely hunting for mafia.
also some players (like me) just like to be chatty/have a joke sometimes. Which may not be "pure" in terms of the game, but I find playing mafia to be quite a social experience, and I wouldn't enjoy it so much if I couldn't enjoy people's company while I'm playing.
This, half the fun if not more in playing mafia for me is messing about with people.
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On February 17 2015 19:52 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 15:35 Eden1892 wrote:On February 17 2015 13:32 GlowingBear wrote:
Anyway, here is my opinion: people are giving too much priority to "stablish their innocence" rather to "hunt mafia". Or they are just bored and want to shit chat (me).
[...]
People are playing the game alone. They post because they post. They don't have a clear objective when they post. And that's the problem.
That's why the question "How am I helping town posting this?" is so important.
Another question that is important is "How can I give this information with less words?" and "Is this really an important information?".
Spot-on, I'm discussing this issue elsewhere (can't link it though) and I agree completely, especially with the boldface parts. I'm learning a lot about my play from this realization. Not spot-on. If more people would actually establish their innocence then towns would have a much much easier time. People who can't be mislynched (like you in Horn) are the biggest pain in the ass for mafia.
I disagree with you. People who can't be mislynched are easy to be used by mafia when they have a wrong read and a mislynch is easier to occur. All mafia has to do, then, is to shoot this guy at night.
On February 17 2015 20:09 marvellosity wrote:
it's not really one of those either/or things, because one of (if not the) best ways to establish your innocence is to be obviously and genuinely hunting for mafia.
also some players (like me) just like to be chatty/have a joke sometimes. Which may not be "pure" in terms of the game, but I find playing mafia to be quite a social experience, and I wouldn't enjoy it so much if I couldn't enjoy people's company while I'm playing.
Although it's the best way to stablish innocence, is also the more exhaustive one. It's much easier to not being mislynched just because you have a 40 pages filter. In example, Imperial Mafia.
And yes, I agree on the chatty thing. That's how it works with me too. But although it is fun, it is detrimental to proper analysis IMO.
Maybe if town distinguishes their reads posts from interaction posts by formatting differently, it would be a huge help to town.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
And yes, I agree on the chatty thing. That's how it works with me too. But although it is fun, it is detrimental to proper analysis IMO.
If marv and I can do it then you guys just need to step up and do it properly if you want to use it.
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In theory yeah it'd be great if all the townies could be obvious and unlynchable, and if they get there through high-volume posting, ok, great
In practice though I don't think this tends to happen as much as we'd like to think
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What sets the status of being unlynchable?
Actively scumhunting? Easy to fake.
Having a huge filter? I'll post everytime I breath.
You managed to be unlynchable? Congratulations!
But you mislynched in LYLO and you lost the game. Perfect.
On February 18 2015 01:17 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote + And yes, I agree on the chatty thing. That's how it works with me too. But although it is fun, it is detrimental to proper analysis IMO. If marv and I can do it then you guys just need to step up and do it properly if you want to use it.
I'm not saying that you should stop being active. And nobody needs to step up. You and marv can be able to read the game thoroughly, but a lot can't because it's cluttered. So, you had all the good analysis, but couldn't convince lost townies. GG again.
I'm trying to suggest a way to play optimally.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
I don't get what the problem is if we just lynch mafia??? there's nothing more optimal than that and we most definitely convince people to lynch the mafia and we have huge filters and still get lynched when we are mafia too so I don't see how it's particularly difficult
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
yes, this "optimal" style of play is this mythical objective state that doesn't actually exist.
Actively scumhunting is not easy to fake at all, beeteedubs. At least, not when town expects a certain quality of scumhunting from you.
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On February 18 2015 01:53 Holyflare wrote:
I don't get what the problem is if we just lynch mafia??? there's nothing more optimal than that and we most definitely convince people to lynch the mafia and we have huge filters and still get lynched when we are mafia too so I don't see how it's particularly difficult
Hmm, let me try to get clearer...
You can be active and readable
Marv also.
There are people that can't. Me, for example.
You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I don't have the patience to read 30+ new pages of game after I spend one entire day without playing. And it fucks my gameplay. It's harder to keep track and, therefore, is detrimental to town.
Other point that I'm trying to explain is that is more important to scumhunt than to establish innocence. Because Mafia is a timeclock to town. They have to lynch mafia BEFORE they can properly stablish innocence. You can win a game lynching mafia but you can't win a game by only establishing your innocence.
Like, what's the "counter-attack" scum has against a universal townread? Kill him at night.
What's the "counter-attack" scum has against a scumlynch? None.
Playing optimally is a myth. Yet we can discuss what is playing optimally to further improve gameplay, right?
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On February 18 2015 01:25 Eden1892 wrote:
In theory yeah it'd be great if all the townies could be obvious and unlynchable, and if they get there through high-volume posting, ok, great
In practice though I don't think this tends to happen as much as we'd like to think
I never said that posting in high volumes is needed to become unlynchable.
On February 18 2015 02:33 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 01:53 Holyflare wrote:
I don't get what the problem is if we just lynch mafia??? there's nothing more optimal than that and we most definitely convince people to lynch the mafia and we have huge filters and still get lynched when we are mafia too so I don't see how it's particularly difficult Hmm, let me try to get clearer... You can be active and readable Marv also. There are people that can't. Me, for example. You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I don't have the patience to read 30+ new pages of game after I spend one entire day without playing. And it fucks my gameplay. It's harder to keep track and, therefore, is detrimental to town.Other point that I'm trying to explain is that is more important to scumhunt than to establish innocence. Because Mafia is a timeclock to town. They have to lynch mafia BEFORE they can properly stablish innocence. You can win a game lynching mafia but you can't win a game by only establishing your innocence. Like, what's the "counter-attack" scum has against a universal townread? Kill him at night. What's the "counter-attack" scum has against a scumlynch? None. Playing optimally is a myth. Yet we can discuss what is playing optimally to further improve gameplay, right?
The bolded is a clear contradiction. If you acknowledge that people can post much without losing their objective (and there are quite a few people who can and will do that) and you still can't be bothered to read the thread when you took a break from the game then you are the problem and nothing else.
Of course you can win a game by lynching mafia but you can only lynch mafia if you not only identified them but are also able to convince town to actually kill them which is only possible or at least much easier if people think that you are town. Not to mention how much easier it is to find mafia if townies prove their innocence.
Of course scum can shoot obvious townies in the night but if there are several obvious townies they can't shoot them all. But they ARE running out of options for mislynches.
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I will be the town hero that will change his post style to quality over quantity.
I already tried it once and dedicated my post clearing townies and catching mafia!Chroma somewhere but then all the other townies were whiny bitches that weren't as gifted as I was and I had to change my style back to mass posting due to peer pressure.
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On February 18 2015 03:13 Koshi wrote:
I will be the town hero that will change his post style to quality over quantity.
I already tried it once and dedicated my post clearing townies and catching mafia!Chroma somewhere but then all the other townies were whiny bitches that weren't as gifted as I was and I had to change my style back to mass posting due to peer pressure.
Because you were far more vocal about your completely nonsensical townreads in that game and so noone townread you.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot
You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I also don't know anyone at all that posts like this
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On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot Show nested quote +
You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I also don't know anyone at all that posts like this
Me neither.
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uhh yea eden idk where you've been having this discussion but it isn't with me cuz i would have disagreed with you LMAO
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On February 18 2015 03:07 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 01:25 Eden1892 wrote:
In theory yeah it'd be great if all the townies could be obvious and unlynchable, and if they get there through high-volume posting, ok, great
In practice though I don't think this tends to happen as much as we'd like to think I never said that posting in high volumes is needed to become unlynchable. Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 02:33 GlowingBear wrote:On February 18 2015 01:53 Holyflare wrote:
I don't get what the problem is if we just lynch mafia??? there's nothing more optimal than that and we most definitely convince people to lynch the mafia and we have huge filters and still get lynched when we are mafia too so I don't see how it's particularly difficult Hmm, let me try to get clearer... You can be active and readable Marv also. There are people that can't. Me, for example. You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I don't have the patience to read 30+ new pages of game after I spend one entire day without playing. And it fucks my gameplay. It's harder to keep track and, therefore, is detrimental to town.Other point that I'm trying to explain is that is more important to scumhunt than to establish innocence. Because Mafia is a timeclock to town. They have to lynch mafia BEFORE they can properly stablish innocence. You can win a game lynching mafia but you can't win a game by only establishing your innocence. Like, what's the "counter-attack" scum has against a universal townread? Kill him at night. What's the "counter-attack" scum has against a scumlynch? None. Playing optimally is a myth. Yet we can discuss what is playing optimally to further improve gameplay, right? The bolded is a clear contradiction. If you acknowledge that people can post much without losing their objective (and there are quite a few people who can and will do that) and you still can't be bothered to read the thread when you took a break from the game then you are the problem and nothing else. Of course you can win a game by lynching mafia but you can only lynch mafia if you not only identified them but are also able to convince town to actually kill them which is only possible or at least much easier if people think that you are town. Not to mention how much easier it is to find mafia if townies prove their innocence. Of course scum can shoot obvious townies in the night but if there are several obvious townies they can't shoot them all. But they ARE running out of options for mislynches.
I do get what you say, although I disagree with you.
No, it's not a contradiction and the problem isn't me. It's a recurring problem. If marv and HF can post massively amounts of posts and still get in their objective, awesome. They are exceptions, at least IMO. If they can read 30 pages of thread from night to day and not feel exhausted, awesome. They have great traits. However, I doubt "talentless" people can follow this. Imperial mafia is proof of how disastrous intense and useless activity is detrimental to town.
JAT, the thing is: some people are active AND direct AND consistent. Fine. They can help town.
Some people spam because they want to expand their filter because they are trying to not get lynched. This clutters the thread. And it makes it nearly impossible to analyse. And it makes town put useless effort in the game
No wonder how many very good players aren't playing anymore. They make good analysis but can't keep track of the thread.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
the majority of people stopped playing because of toxic ppl it was a thread not so long ago afaik not because of spam
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On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot Show nested quote +
You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I also don't know anyone at all that posts like this
I thought you knew me.
Anyway, I don't think PoE is better than finding scum.
Just my opinion.
Also, I'm not telling people to "reduce their activity" just to reduce it. I'm telling people to think of how they will help town while posting. And I bet that a lot of posting wouldn't be done with this in mind.
Or to change formatting of very informational postings. Why not?
Whatever, we are here to have fun, of course. Post what you want. But considering an ideal way of playing as town, I think activity should be lower for most players. That all.
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On February 18 2015 04:53 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:07 justanothertownie wrote:On February 18 2015 01:25 Eden1892 wrote:
In theory yeah it'd be great if all the townies could be obvious and unlynchable, and if they get there through high-volume posting, ok, great
In practice though I don't think this tends to happen as much as we'd like to think I never said that posting in high volumes is needed to become unlynchable. On February 18 2015 02:33 GlowingBear wrote:On February 18 2015 01:53 Holyflare wrote:
I don't get what the problem is if we just lynch mafia??? there's nothing more optimal than that and we most definitely convince people to lynch the mafia and we have huge filters and still get lynched when we are mafia too so I don't see how it's particularly difficult Hmm, let me try to get clearer... You can be active and readable Marv also. There are people that can't. Me, for example. You and marv doesn't post just to post. You post with objective. But a lot of townies doesn't. These townies are doing that because they want to have a big filter and stablish their innocence by it. And this is wrong IMO. It clutters the thread with useless information.
I don't have the patience to read 30+ new pages of game after I spend one entire day without playing. And it fucks my gameplay. It's harder to keep track and, therefore, is detrimental to town.Other point that I'm trying to explain is that is more important to scumhunt than to establish innocence. Because Mafia is a timeclock to town. They have to lynch mafia BEFORE they can properly stablish innocence. You can win a game lynching mafia but you can't win a game by only establishing your innocence. Like, what's the "counter-attack" scum has against a universal townread? Kill him at night. What's the "counter-attack" scum has against a scumlynch? None. Playing optimally is a myth. Yet we can discuss what is playing optimally to further improve gameplay, right? The bolded is a clear contradiction. If you acknowledge that people can post much without losing their objective (and there are quite a few people who can and will do that) and you still can't be bothered to read the thread when you took a break from the game then you are the problem and nothing else. Of course you can win a game by lynching mafia but you can only lynch mafia if you not only identified them but are also able to convince town to actually kill them which is only possible or at least much easier if people think that you are town. Not to mention how much easier it is to find mafia if townies prove their innocence. Of course scum can shoot obvious townies in the night but if there are several obvious townies they can't shoot them all. But they ARE running out of options for mislynches. I do get what you say, although I disagree with you. No, it's not a contradiction and the problem isn't me. It's a recurring problem. If marv and HF can post massively amounts of posts and still get in their objective, awesome. They are exceptions, at least IMO. If they can read 30 pages of thread from night to day and not feel exhausted, awesome. They have great traits. However, I doubt "talentless" people can follow this. Imperial mafia is proof of how disastrous intense and useless activity is detrimental to town. JAT, the thing is: some people are active AND direct AND consistent. Fine. They can help town. Some people spam because they want to expand their filter because they are trying to not get lynched. This clutters the thread. And it makes it nearly impossible to analyse. And it makes town put useless effort in the game No wonder how many very good players aren't playing anymore. They make good analysis but can't keep track of the thread.
The town of imperial did not lose because of the high volume of the game.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
Poeing is like the best tool to find mafia????? You're arguing people don't play spammy as well as me and marv but I'm telling you the strategy (to spam and find the townies asap and poe the mafia) and you're telling me it's not the best way :p
There's a reason i post those poe reads list every game
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On February 18 2015 05:11 Holyflare wrote:
Poeing is like the best tool to find mafia????? You're arguing people don't play spammy as well as me and marv but I'm telling you the strategy (to spam and find the townies asap and poe the mafia) and you're telling me it's not the best way :p
There's a reason i post those poe reads list every game
Hmm that's actually not what I remember you doing. It's a day1 strategy for you in most games I've played with you, which I find okay, but you soon go against people with scummy traits rather than engaging a PoE. Particularly a right lynch you had on bats day 1 in one of those games we played together.
I don't think spamming is necessary to make a good PoE. If that is the strategy that suits you better, fine. It is still different from the type of activity I am damning.
If everyone starts basing their game based on activity as a priority, I BET that the game will be unplayable.
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On February 18 2015 05:25 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 05:11 Holyflare wrote:
Poeing is like the best tool to find mafia????? You're arguing people don't play spammy as well as me and marv but I'm telling you the strategy (to spam and find the townies asap and poe the mafia) and you're telling me it's not the best way :p
There's a reason i post those poe reads list every game If everyone starts basing their game based on activity as a priority, I BET that the game will be unplayable.
Yeah, but nobody is actually doing that. I really don't see your problem.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
Um you poe and then look at the scummy ppl in your poe and you get easy mafia gg
Either way i dunno what the point of this is when i haven't seen anyone who plays spammy but doesn't try and find mafia in the spam.
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On February 18 2015 05:27 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 05:25 GlowingBear wrote:On February 18 2015 05:11 Holyflare wrote:
Poeing is like the best tool to find mafia????? You're arguing people don't play spammy as well as me and marv but I'm telling you the strategy (to spam and find the townies asap and poe the mafia) and you're telling me it's not the best way :p
There's a reason i post those poe reads list every game If everyone starts basing their game based on activity as a priority, I BET that the game will be unplayable. Yeah, but nobody is actually doing that. I really don't see your problem.
Meh, we are in a thread where the OP states that he saw a game with extreme activity. So there's that.
I'm going to obs some games and post examples of what I'm talking here, then.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Oh.
I thought people would just shout "NEVERMORE" over and over until scum surrendered.
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I thought about creating a game with 2 hour days and 1 hour nights for a one day thing, but then I realized that there's another way of using time as spam prevention without having to cram everything in one day. My idea is the following: 2x 2 hour days with 22 hour silent periods in between. It'd be great for those who don't have as much time to commit to mafia whilst still allowing people who want to spam to spam in those times without worrying about their post count. I'm curious if anyone'd be willing to play in such a game. If so, I'd be happy to host it.
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The problem is you would need to find the time in those two hours every day which could be hard.
If that problem is solvable it sounds like a good idea.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
You have to find the time and then things always come up at random times too so you're essentially fucked if anything happens for basically an entire cycle
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Well yeah, but the time would be known in advance so you could plan it out, plus there's 2x 2 hours so if you miss one you still have the other, and you can read up on the game even if you miss one.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
To a large extent there's no such thing as "planning it out" - I have my time to play when I have my time to play.
One of the best things about mafia is that you fit it around everything else. This is going the other way which seems to make it more of a commitment, which is against the idea in the first place
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On February 21 2015 21:39 marvellosity wrote:
To a large extent there's no such thing as "planning it out" - I have my time to play when I have my time to play.
One of the best things about mafia is that you fit it around everything else. This is going the other way which seems to make it more of a commitment, which is against the idea in the first place
Same for me.
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You two aren't really my target group for this kind of game though The main idea is that you commit two hours a day to the game and you'll never come back to a thread where you're 20 pages behind. You have a fixed time commitment that allows you to keep up with the thread if you can be present at those times.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
put it this way - if even with all the time i clearly have to play mafia I find it hard to commit to actual slots, I dunno how ppl with much less time than me will be able to.
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They may have more regular time schedules.
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I actually really like your idea, Artanis - there's some work to think about what would be a decent slot schedule in a worldwide game, but I think it's doable.
It would sort case builders rather than chatters, but that's fine - not every game has to suit everybody. A 500 page game like Imperial would be torture for me but clearly suits other players.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
actually Imperial was torture for everyone :p
10 esports dollars says the idea is practically unworkable though
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On February 22 2015 21:40 marvellosity wrote:
actually Imperial was torture for everyone :p
If you died early it was ok...
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I'd just put up a poll for the ideal time. I think the best way to find out if it'll work is to try it out. I'll put it in the queue.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:
tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot.
^ probably even more apt after last game judging from the post game of titanic
On February 13 2015 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
I don't even mind having a seperate queue like [M][N][C] for capped mini normals or whatever it is, I'm sure a lot of people would fill them as well as normal mini's but I really don't think you should change the way minis are right now at all.
also this should be a thing because I don't want post restriction games taking up normal queue slots
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On February 26 2015 07:14 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:
tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot. ^ probably even more apt after last game judging from the post game of titanic
No one's asking you to make 3 posts a game. One doesn't need 20-30 pages to effectively push cases though.
Also, I think a lot of the problems that people have pushing cases are more due to bad writing and disorganized thoughts than anything else.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On February 26 2015 07:27 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 07:14 Holyflare wrote:On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:
tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot. ^ probably even more apt after last game judging from the post game of titanic No one's asking you to make 3 posts a game. One doesn't need 20-30 pages to effectively push cases though. Also, I think a lot of the problems that people have pushing cases are more due to bad writing and disorganized thoughts than anything else.
it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot.
I was referring more to this since establishing innocence is imo far better than finding mafia.
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I agree. Finding mafia without establishing innocence is practically worthless, at least before they lynch you xP, since at best you get ignored, and at worst people go lolol mafia and treat your reads like you already flipped scum.
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Personally I think it's feasible to establish innocence without having a giant filter, though. You'd just have to be more cogent with your thoughts.
I'm trying HtS' capped game. We'll see how it goes. My style is high-volume, too, though not to the same extent as y'all's.
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On February 26 2015 07:35 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 07:27 Hapahauli wrote:On February 26 2015 07:14 Holyflare wrote:On February 18 2015 03:56 Holyflare wrote:
tbh i could post 3 posts a game pointing out my mafia targets and they'd prob be mafia but people wouldn't follow shit unless i spammed and established my innocence and it's more fun to just write a lot that's on my mind and it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot. ^ probably even more apt after last game judging from the post game of titanic No one's asking you to make 3 posts a game. One doesn't need 20-30 pages to effectively push cases though. Also, I think a lot of the problems that people have pushing cases are more due to bad writing and disorganized thoughts than anything else. Show nested quote +
it's far more important to establish innocence because that poe's mafia which leads to mafia lynches??? you're telling me that you don't want people to post a lot to establish innocence but somehow also find mafia while people aren't posting a lot.
I was referring more to this since establishing innocence is imo far better than finding mafia.
Well yes, establishing innocence is important. But I challenge the idea that it needs psychotic-levels of activity.
I also think "establishing innocence" is misleading. You can "establish your innocence" by spamming, being emotionally off-the-wall, and maybe throwing in some retarded fake claim for good measure. People will think you're town, but you'll be ignored for the rest of the game screaming at a brick wall you put together for yourself.
I prefer viewing it as "establishing trustworthiness," because it entails some other responsibilities. Keeping confident, composed, focused... those are just as important as looking townie.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
I don't think anyone suggested proving towniness needed psychotic levels of activity.
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this was a great read ~1 yr later
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On February 13 2015 03:40 kitaman27 wrote:
Well said Palmar! :D
I'm repeating a lot of what you said here, but this is how I divide things (while mentioning the two very deserving individuals above that you disrespected with your omission):
From 2008-2010:
The Bourgeoisie (Ver, Incognito, Qatol,Flamewheel, Radfield, iNfuNdiBuLuM, Pyr, L, Ace, BC)
Defining Characteristics:
-Strong analytical cases backed up by logic
-Persuasive and strongly opinionated in regards to how the game should be played
-Perhaps you could make the argument that this group could be split in two based on style: A few of the earlier names preferring large walls of texts to convince others, while the later names preferring a more aggressive bullying style
-Sometimes a bit stubborn and hesitant to listen to the opinions outside their group
The Proletariats and Court Jesters (Amber, chaoser, RoL, BrownBear, Pandain, Opz, Artanis, Bill Murray, chezinu, Caller, bumatlarge, Foolishness)
Defining Characteristics:
-All capable players, but always held back by the dominance of the upper group. Foolishness was probably an exception who eventually rose to the upper group
-Adopted unique posting styles placing a high value on entertaining others through their posts
-Perfected the art of trolling while still making valuable contributions to the game
2010-2011
The Doctor Helvetica Baby Boomers (Meapak, Node, Kenpachi, Kita, Wiggles, Coag, Jackal, GMarshal, GGQ)
Defining Characteristics:
-A large group of players that started playing within a few months period around the time of Haunted and Insane.
-Initially viewed the Bourgeoisie as living legends, but friction eventually developed between the two groups after accusations of elitism. Eventually most of the Bourgeoisie stopped playing for various reasons, while a lot of the Proletariats stuck around for another couple years and stepped into the veteran role.
-Frequently made use of post by post analysis style posts that were less focused than before but provided more specific examples, concluding with broad themes that were common among those posts. This style was strongly looked down upon by others due to the size of a single post.
2011-2012
The New Kids on the Block (Palmar, Sandroba, Syllogism, mig, Curu, VisceraEyes, prplhz, Toad, bugs, GreYMisT)
Defining Characteristics:
-Popularized the idea of using "meta" to compare a player's current play to their play in past games and draw conclusions based on the similarities or differences.
-Played so many games together that they developed frighteningly accurate reads on each other that were not very clear to the groups that came before or after them.
-The role a "thread bully" became popular with several players in this list, similar to the style used by earlier players like Ace, L, BC. Aggressively pushed their views and tunneled on targets that refused to listen.
2012-Current
-A plague of dirty spammers that I refuse to acknowledge plus austin
-Use a conversational style to maximize information
-Place strong value on "feel" reads, rather than well defined cases
-Started playing around the time that newbie games became popular developing strong familiarity with each other similar to the previous group, but specific to a certain set of newbies such as hapa/prome/iamp/Keirathi or the video mafia peeps.
-Showed a strong preference for mini games, while large games and themed games began to fall out of favor
-Popularized the idea of a last minute "wagon of justice"
-A small sub-group of players emerged that place zero value on convincing others, instead focusing on identifying the appropriate players to sheep
Good stuff. Can you elaborate on the friction between the two groups part? I think I missed this era :D
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Mostly a bunch of random ban list drama that eventually escalated in TL Mafia XXXVIII, followed by several people including Jackal, Lemon, and to a lesser extent, Coag leaving the site.
The "friction" probably wasn't all that bad aside from a group of like 8-10 people though.
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lol the protactinium drama.
I also read my wall of text, man that shit was good.
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oh lol I faintly remember that Protact situation. The forum was a wild and crazy place back then. Good times!
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to think, the first game I played on this site had 132 players. and probably the most fun. Chuiu is a fucking legend man.
that was 2008 though
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EPT
