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Was muling some thoughts while watching Soniv's stream, see above.
And I look silly again because MoonBear posted in the meantime. Your post doesn't really convince me though, especially the first part: "At least I tried to get useful information instead of randomly querying people" (that's the vibe I get from it), when the main thing you received flak for is that your big post spent a lot of space on Wave before saying "it doesn't matter" and shoving it aside.
Your second point comes back to him though, or at least that's how I see it. Are you targeting him when you speak of "people trying to drive the town while doing nothing important"? Do you think he should be more assertive (since his biggest accusation was on you after you targeted him) if he wants to sit at the wheel?
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On October 13 2014 04:13 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 03:28 ketchup wrote:owb is also more townie than comadose who has voted on a fairly bandwagon type of vote without explaining much. see: On October 13 2014 00:12 ComaDose wrote:
ugh hmmm im not sure what to do.
##vote GhandiEAGLE
sorry jeff So, ##Vote ComaDose I should also mention this is pretty fucking terrible.
Coma's post or Ketchup's?
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Wave please make a grouped post, it's getting a bit cluttered and hard to read. @_@
(I promise to work on my layout/concision in exchange.)
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Goddammit Tolkien you made me think I'd switched up my tabs and had missed posts because of how fast the thread suddenly went. Almost had a heart attack thinking "Do I have to go through all that again ? D:"
On October 13 2014 05:21 AsmodeusXI wrote:+ Show Spoiler +@Alaric, I'm on MB's ass because I don't like posts lacking content, especially D1. I realize that D1 is a time of extremely little information, but there's been enough to chat about in this thread at this point that he should have an opinion on something. So far I feel I've gotten the least direction or justification from MB on anything. Even just a vote in a direction (with a reason) would help (even if it's just a no-lynch, crappy as that would be... owb), but when you're posting sans content (especially when it's long and windy like MB's was), it just makes me think you're trying to sow dissension among the loyal townie ranks. For example... On October 13 2014 03:44 MoonBear wrote:
Because it's way too convenient to start picking on the people who make outlandish posts than the people actually trying to cause chaos and work against the town. The entire Day 1 has just been shifting gears around trying to accuse people over super trivial matters instead of anything important with various people trying to take control and manually drive what the town should be thinking instead of just letting it happen automatically. I don't get THIS at all. I understand the problems with D1 and all the accusations flying around. What I don't understand is what is meant by "letting it happen automatically." If we're not making cases and trying to prove something, what happens "automatically" is a shot in the dark (which statistically ends in scum's favor) or a no-lynch (which automatically ends in scum's favor). I don't like either option. If there are people trying to cause chaos/work against the town, I wanna hear who they are. As far as my reads on who they are, I'm still suspect on Tolk, but I'm not going to go on that just because the bandwagon is turning against him. I think Tolkien's thoughts made sense from his big post, so unless anyone has any further reasoning they haven't explained (Wave), then I see no reason to lynch him yet. My suspicions have risen vs. Req since he started playing for real, but that's at least partially just because he disagrees with me and that doesn't mean he's not town (much like you, Alaric). I think that Coma is dangerous lurker scum as well, perhaps more dangerous than Alz and this point since he's silently throwing votes out. On the other hand, I feel like ketchup's thoughts have been all over the place, which I don't like per se, but I can't fault him for suspecting Wave, since I'm not 100% on him either. I go back and forth on soniv and Wave and I think that only time will give me a better read on them. That being said, I don't approve of Wave's LT vote entirely. tl;dr - I'm sticking with MB for now because I've got net 0 info from him EVEN though he's put effort into this. If I can't get him lynched, then it'll have to be Coma because he's ALSO put in net 0, but a percentage of that feels like lack of effort, which is shitty but not 100% scummy.
See, that's much better.
I like the green-coloured part in the spoiler: that's exactly what I wanted to see from you, eg. formulating a "free" opinion rather than bounce on someone or worse, bandwagoning without talking.
##Unvote
Which leaves me a bit stuck for the day, though. The bandwagon against Tolkien is weaker so I don't have qualms about looking at it anymore, but then there's the mutual unvote between Wave and him.
I'm still perplexed about Tolkien, but that's less suspicious and more straight-up confused by his play. For now it looks like he was being super aggressive with Wave because he wanted a reaction more than because he was sincerely suspicious about it, as if he "faked it". Which suggests he didn't stop "trolling", he just went from "silly troll" to "aggressive troll", stirring shit up on purpose to create discussion.
Trying to determine whether the discussion helps town or creates a mess. So not gonna try to lynch him for now.
That leaves me with Moonbear out of my main "scum reads". I'm a bit uneasy about that because it isn't exactly a strong read either.
On the other hand I'd still rather vote someone that looks weird to me than one of the afk-ers (plus I don't know if I'll be around for long, got a bit of a headache and if Coma/owb start posting more in the next 3 hours I may miss it). As Wave said with Ghandi, "you can deal with the unknowns later, but deal with the suspicious now" (I paraphrase, his defense of Ghandi was along these lines), which mainly leaves Moonbear atm.
Plus I liked that you (Asmo) made a case I found plausible, so take it as a token of good will from me I guess.
##Vote: Moonbear
On October 13 2014 05:36 WaveofShadow wrote:
I might just sheep Alaric. We should talk bro.
I laughed because when I reached that post I had already thought about Asmo's post and my reads and decided I'd go for Moonbear off of our exchange, which technically means I'm sheeping him myself for now? 
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Re: Moonbear vote, I'm not following Asmo's argument regarding the effort, though.
I mean if Moonbear was an eager but misguided townie, I'd see nothing wrong with him making a big post (my first post that apparently pleased Wave and Asmo could have been judged as "Alaric involved toward doing nothing" had it been judged contentless too since it was pretty long), what makes me tick if how adamant he's been afterwards.
Don't get me wrong, he's assertive and since one of the main critics flying around is "town is so indecisive" that's something we should value, but he at the same time asks questions on the setting and how things work, which suggests he's unsure/keeps an open mind, but when it comes to his reads/opinions/how he values his post's contribution, he's been very firm and counter-aggro'd the people criticising it (notably Wave). Why would he do that if the rest of his behaviour suggests that he's a newbie trying to figure things out? I'd have expected more of an "Ah, maybe I didn't do that completely right, I'll heed vets' remarks and reconsider then" attitude than standing his ground and firing away (not saying he should have sheeped Wave either, after all that's why I went after Asmo ).
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Wow you guys stop posting.
Screw it I still haven't made dinner, gimme half a hour before next post.
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On October 13 2014 06:22 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 06:19 AsmodeusXI wrote:
I'm glad we could see eye to eye Alaric.
@MB, I want to point out that I'm still open to be swayed. No one's 100% guilty on D1. Come @ me with something good and I'll switch to that lurker scumbag Coma because he certainly hasn't done much good for himself. Vice versa for you Coma. Why aren't you scum? Haha what say you now Alaric
See my post right after yours for a more detailed explanation.
Although in retrospect I told myself that overly clinging to one's first impression and being fiercely confrontational was also something Tolkien did, and in the very same post I wrote that it made me rethink a bit if that wasn't a town move from me. Why wouldn't Moonbear benefit from the same treatment for how he behaved?
It could be pointed out that both you and Tolkien have some experience under your belts, which makes me more likely to "accept" that there's a reason behind you doing that I'm too green to grasp yet.
On the other hand, just because it's Moonbear's first game doesn't mean he's not maybe better at this kind of things than you. An issue for me here is that I have no idea what "serious" Moonbear is like, since he's always that jolly cheerful fellow with us in the off-topic thread (heck, even when he warns me it's more like "PSA from your friendly neighbour"!), which muddies my expectations.
But in the end I said I'd rather vote for someone dubious than an afk*, so I'm looking at him right now.
Moonbear, what that means is that you're close to a default lynch than a 100% scum read for me, so if you wanna stay alive it's up to you buddy! Be convincing, preferable before I go to bed.
* my "policy" in terms of lynching lurkers is that I assume noone will lie and pretend they have RL stuff to justify them lurking, and Mafia's still a game in the end, so I'd rather have everyone play.
It means I'm wary of lynching people who've been away for non-game reasons, while someone who participated, even if he's lynched day 1 will have at least had a go at it (syntax?). Obviously the more time passes the less it holds, and I won't be as "lenient" in that regard come day 2.
Cf. the "carebear" post.
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The fucking typos, geez. This game will kill me if my headache doesn't.
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On October 13 2014 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 07:13 Alaric wrote:On October 13 2014 06:22 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 06:19 AsmodeusXI wrote:
I'm glad we could see eye to eye Alaric.
@MB, I want to point out that I'm still open to be swayed. No one's 100% guilty on D1. Come @ me with something good and I'll switch to that lurker scumbag Coma because he certainly hasn't done much good for himself. Vice versa for you Coma. Why aren't you scum? Haha what say you now Alaric See my post right after yours for a more detailed explanation. Although in retrospect I told myself that overly clinging to one's first impression and being fiercely confrontational was also something Tolkien did, and in the very same post I wrote that it made me rethink a bit if that wasn't a town move from me. Why wouldn't Moonbear benefit from the same treatment for how he behaved? It could be pointed out that both you and Tolkien have some experience under your belts, which makes me more likely to "accept" that there's a reason behind you doing that I'm too green to grasp yet. On the other hand, just because it's Moonbear's first game doesn't mean he's not maybe better at this kind of things than you. An issue for me here is that I have no idea what "serious" Moonbear is like, since he's always that jolly cheerful fellow with us in the off-topic thread (heck, even when he warns me it's more like "PSA from your friendly neighbour"!), which muddies my expectations. But in the end I said I'd rather vote for someone dubious than an afk*, so I'm looking at him right now. Moonbear, what that means is that you're close to a default lynch than a 100% scum read for me, so if you wanna stay alive it's up to you buddy! Be convincing, preferable before I go to bed. * my "policy" in terms of lynching lurkers is that I assume noone will lie and pretend they have RL stuff to justify them lurking, and Mafia's still a game in the end, so I'd rather have everyone play. It means I'm wary of lynching people who've been away for non-game reasons, while someone who participated, even if he's lynched day 1 will have at least had a go at it (syntax?). Obviously the more time passes the less it holds, and I won't be as "lenient" in that regard come day 2. Cf. the "carebear" post. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was referring to the fact that you removed your vote from Asmo and then he goes and scums it up a little by talking about how he's giving himself and others opening to control his voting patterns rather than take responsibility for them himself.
Oh. That.
Well I'm not 100% sure either and I tend to be a pretty passive person in general (as in "I gather as much information as I can until I'm as sure as I think I'll ever be, and even then I have doubts"), so I'm technically still opened to "swaying" myself, as I mentioned with the "for lack of a better option".
I assume it's normal for day 1, though, since even the vets are unsure? And it should be better once day 2 rolls around and we have firmer reads.
Also who is BH and what's that RNG talk?
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On October 13 2014 07:38 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 07:36 Alaric wrote:On October 13 2014 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 07:13 Alaric wrote:On October 13 2014 06:22 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 06:19 AsmodeusXI wrote:
I'm glad we could see eye to eye Alaric.
@MB, I want to point out that I'm still open to be swayed. No one's 100% guilty on D1. Come @ me with something good and I'll switch to that lurker scumbag Coma because he certainly hasn't done much good for himself. Vice versa for you Coma. Why aren't you scum? Haha what say you now Alaric See my post right after yours for a more detailed explanation. Although in retrospect I told myself that overly clinging to one's first impression and being fiercely confrontational was also something Tolkien did, and in the very same post I wrote that it made me rethink a bit if that wasn't a town move from me. Why wouldn't Moonbear benefit from the same treatment for how he behaved? It could be pointed out that both you and Tolkien have some experience under your belts, which makes me more likely to "accept" that there's a reason behind you doing that I'm too green to grasp yet. On the other hand, just because it's Moonbear's first game doesn't mean he's not maybe better at this kind of things than you. An issue for me here is that I have no idea what "serious" Moonbear is like, since he's always that jolly cheerful fellow with us in the off-topic thread (heck, even when he warns me it's more like "PSA from your friendly neighbour"!), which muddies my expectations. But in the end I said I'd rather vote for someone dubious than an afk*, so I'm looking at him right now. Moonbear, what that means is that you're close to a default lynch than a 100% scum read for me, so if you wanna stay alive it's up to you buddy! Be convincing, preferable before I go to bed. * my "policy" in terms of lynching lurkers is that I assume noone will lie and pretend they have RL stuff to justify them lurking, and Mafia's still a game in the end, so I'd rather have everyone play. It means I'm wary of lynching people who've been away for non-game reasons, while someone who participated, even if he's lynched day 1 will have at least had a go at it (syntax?). Obviously the more time passes the less it holds, and I won't be as "lenient" in that regard come day 2. Cf. the "carebear" post. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was referring to the fact that you removed your vote from Asmo and then he goes and scums it up a little by talking about how he's giving himself and others opening to control his voting patterns rather than take responsibility for them himself. Oh. That. Well I'm not 100% sure either and I tend to be a pretty passive person in general (as in "I gather as much information as I can until I'm as sure as I think I'll ever be, and even then I have doubts"), so I'm technically still opened to "swaying" myself, as I mentioned with the "for lack of a better option". I assume it's normal for day 1, though, since even the vets are unsure? And it should be better once day 2 rolls around and we have firmer reads. Also who is BH and what's that RNG talk? Don't worry about the RNG business. And yes a lot of people are unsure, but announcing to the thread that your vote is essentially not being determined by your own ideals means that if you mislynch you don't have to be blamed for it. Dun like it.
Uh... I guess I can see what you're getting at. Although in my case that means I'm going to stick to my guns (eg. Moonbear) because I value formulating one's opinion (see the whole Asmo thing) over taking the bet that Moonbear will not only bring more to the town than Ghandi (odds in his favour for this considering how "not-caring" Ghandi has seemed up to now, but that's assuming Moonbear is town to begin with which I'm doubting), but also enough that we don't feel the need to off him later (which current-not-caring Ghandi would probably require, as you pointed out, hence contributing-Moonbear would "save" us a shot/lynch).
At the moment I don't feel like taking this bet is worth it.
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On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote:
Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord.
Now you sound like day 1 Req.
Other than that... welp.
I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel.
I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused.
I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow.
As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out:
Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now. 
Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse.
Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already.
Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years.
Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly.
(For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p)
On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote:
That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum.
Time to go into filters and weed out my town.
I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think?
Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork).
(On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.)
Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is.
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Without detailing (because Werewolves' setups work differently and giving details isn't worth fattening the post) it'd be either 3-4 scum, or 3 scum + 3P. Certainly not 4 scum + 3P, that sounds super harsh for a newbie game (something like mislynch twice and you lose).
Also you guys keep posting stuff I'd find interesting to discuss but if I keep my detailed reads for after the night actions I don't want to clutter the thread with low-content. T_T
On October 14 2014 02:14 mordek wrote:
Man I almost posted saying I think I've changed my mind on LT and then he goes and posts like this again. It's discouraging.
Eh.
They're confusing me too but I'm thinking that this and the fact both are vets are related. They're just pushing more aggressively than us (or if they're scum, faking town behaviour better than us) but I assume that's how you're actually supposed to play Mafia.
Reading between the personal attacks, they seem to say the same thing to each other, eg. "I think we're both town, but you're so bad at giving town a direction, and noone listens to me. I wish they listened to me.", Tolkien being more aggressive about it and Wave more "tired".
It sends my paranoia trigger flying, but on the other hand it makes both of them focal because if you pay attention, they're both leading the game indirectly, there's so much discussion either about them, or about topics they started (sparking the question "how much of it is intentional?").
I think I'll get a much better feel for the whole game if I can settle on trusting (or not) one of them. "They make good practice for training one's critical thinking in Mafia", or something like that. Also part of why night actions are important.
(This is probably a meta read on the game itself more than them as townie/scum, but since they seem to eat up so much discussion I thought I'd clarify that. I think observing them is fine for us non-vets. But going back to discussing their antagonism again and again is bad, esp. because I think we'll have trouble sorting it out quickly.)
As for how you feel about the game, and especially your "the opinion of the majority affects me",+ Show Spoiler [lengthy shit] + I don't think you should worry too much. If anything, look at how much more aggressive Wave has been when he's pressing someone, compared to how he's in offtopic GD even when he's angry. It's just the game, and part of it is obviously to try and get into people's head: since we're on a clock as town (even a 48 hours one), the easiest way to do that is to shove people. There's no ill will behind it as "what's in the game stays in the game" as Wave reminded at the start. Tolkien's been really trolly and that surprised me but I won't draw conclusions about how he outside this game from that. Take it as "fake opinions" you can as such dismiss if you will. See Req, who's been sensitive and sometimes even hot-headed on some topics in the past, I was wondering how he'd handle the pression and aggression* (he gives me the impression that shoving him/trolling him in general would get old very fast and he'd have a short temper for that), and he appeared defensive day 1, and disgruntled because he didn't grasp what was going on well enough for his liking. Since he's had time to look around his posting has very much improved, I think because he got a feeling for how Mafia works (and that Tolkien's condescending trolling shouldn't be taken personally) and he's applied himself to it as, well, just a game. (Which fits how I expected him to approach Mafia's concept; and I like what I'm seeing from him so far.)
* btw, someone mentioned how "pregame TS" could be scum-lingo for Soniv and Wave. They did it after I expressed my "worries" for Req's handling of the atmosphere in a very early post, I don't think they're anything to read there. They just both wondered the same and talked about it since at the core the goal is for everyone to have fun.
Final point (and after that I think I'll wait for night actions because that's already lengthy "emptiness"), about Cixah and the Innocent Child: there's no need to protect him because you only hold power as long as scum doesn't know what you are.
You're effectively VT (eg. VT, vigi or poisoner who already used his power, etc.)? You're ignorable (unless you're pinning every scum down accurately obv.)
You're blue? Kill kill kill!
That's why Cixah as innocent child could be very aggressive if he wanted to, knowing he could always claim Innocent Child if he risked getting lynched, and if scum kills him, then scum doesn't kill a blue, so it's beneficial to town.
Now that he's outed, he can still be aggressive though, because we know we can believe his intentions, and scum would rather not lynch him anymore since they're rather fish for blues (I'm not sure about that, I thought scum would target accurate readers first but apparently the vets said scum would value blue kills a lot).
eg. since scum shouldn't want to kill him (not because he's an innocent child, but because now they know he's an innocent child) it's not interesting to protect him.
Or at least that's how I understood it.
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On October 14 2014 03:17 WaveofShadow wrote:
I really wish Alaric would stay and discuss shit rather than explode all over the thread and the leave to do it again.
But I'm fucking slow! And you guys post so much.
0K I'll try, catching up to what was said while I was writing and cooking dinner.
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See Wave, I can't get dinner without the thread exploding. x_x You guys are hard to follow simply because I'm slow to post so if I try while everyone's talking I'll miss a bunch/have to lengthen the post. Let's go anyway.
On October 14 2014 04:57 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 04:54 Requizen wrote:
Decent reasoning. I could get behind a Soniv investigation, even if my scum klaxons aren't blaring around him.
Also worth noting: ketchup. Again, largely ignored, no large stances taken. Many, many posts of "Why do you think x is scum" "who are your scumreads". Possibly starting fights, possibly starting conversation, but his volume of posting with little commitment is offputting. Soniv and ketchup have had each others' backs throughout. It's difficult because as much as I want to try and draw association there, it only leads to WIFOM. I'm more likely to believe ketchup is town because of how he went about attacking me. His stances are much more aggressive than soniv's to be sure. Let me look a little closer but from what I remember ketchup's questions actually GO somewhere.
I don't think it means much though, because Tolkien and you have had each other's back in a way and it doesn't stop others from because either of you (rarely both, I'd even point out).
Superficial read of the situation:
- Wave and Tolkien both think they're both town, but the other do a poor job of it, and they're not followed/supported much because of the antagonising/aggressive way they go about it. Tolkien is a lot less afraid of throwing votes than Wave.
- Wave and Soniv (hereafter Daddy and Mommy) got torn over the Moonbear situation, to the point that they went from agreeing with each other to Daddy wanting Mommy dead. Mommy is being shifty, antagonising Daddy much but never voting against him nor even accusing him overtly. It's a bit of a passive-aggressive, elephant in the room thing where Mommy never says "scum" but keeps nagging Daddy (and the "vote prude" post doesn't hold because for all intents and purposes it's the same as if he did).
I'm not liking this situation, and I feel like shying away from it. Not because it's an established bandwagon this time, but because it's do damn confusing.
If I commit to that love triangle, I can't say for sure when, or even if, I'll be able to reach a satisfactory conclusion. Moonbear ended up being kind of a "default" vote for me (the "less bad" choice while I'd rather vote against someone positively sure of) and it's not something I want to repeat, as it holds higher risks of a mislynch.
It's kind of like with lurkers: you have no idea if they're scum, you just operate under the assumption that they don't help town anyway. At the moment, I'm having trouble discerning whether or not Tolkien/Wave/Soniv are trying to help town in some convoluted way that I can't grasp.
+ Show Spoiler [Random note] +Reading Soniv's filter made me read his posts in his voice. This game.
That they're all vets doesn't help because it means they've got some experience, and even if they aren't "masterminds" like Wave said I don't want to end up second-guessing and WIFOMing myself over my read of the situation.
TL;DR: I don't think lynching any of them will resolve the situation, unless he flips red. At best it would reduce the clutter in the thread.
I'd rather focus on people I think would be easier to read through, eg. Asmodeus/ComaDose/mordek/Alzadar, so when the time comes to vote I can be confident instead of always wondering if I made the right read.
The fact that that block doesn't post much also means it's easier to pick a lurker/non-contributor lynch from it than from the 3 geezers (and although it's possible that they're all townies and scum is owb/req/ghandi or something, I feel more confident about saying so about the 2nd group).
That's not to say either that they won't have to be addressed. They will. But I feel that the probability of a fuck-up with them is so high (and we already mislynched) that even if I have my opinions about them I don't want to get near them at the moment.
And as you can see this is a situation that can very easily change during the night, which is why I wanted to keep my reads to myself until the actions are resolved (I haven't said everything but there's certainly enough that scum could use to confuse me).
Another thing that'd annoy me is how frisky people are toward making accusations or calling people out, outside of the tsundere league, but that'd sound a bit hypocritical from me considering I've basically spent the night saying "wait day 2 for me to take my shots". I will however press whoever hasn't been assertive enough for me once I come clear—especially in the "2nd block" I mentioned.
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I don't think it means much though, because Tolkien and you have had each other's back in a way and it doesn't stop others from accusing either of you (rarely both, I'd even point out).
Fuck that, I even proof-read the main body thrice.
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Also a point I forgot to mention when thinking about assertiveness, throwing votes around, and most notably the fact that Soniv accuses way all but in words: can we ##Vote during the Night or is that reserved for Day periods?
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Dunno, ask Wave. But if we follow Coma and call you "the big three", then you'll probably be Bleach due to Kubo's trolling.
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About my activity: keep in mind that I'm not in your timezone. When the day/night gets resolved I'm either asleep or on my way to bed, then the thread explodes and I have to catch up before I post. Mfw there's a (127) next to the thread's name this morning. Also I'm pretty slow to post so it's hard to say meaningful stuff from work (I'd give Ghandi a semi-pass for this but I have no idea of his hours).
Quick recap of my focus as I read through: "Crap, my mostly-scum red on LT was wrong - time to pressure-vote Coma, wait, he's bandwagoned on, avoid that - Asmo's next... but he just made a very sensible post - Soniv's got a good case against him but he's part of the terror trio, ugh". I'll answer a few things to sort my thoughts and decide where I go from there.
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Roles:
I think speculating is no-good atm. Aside from Wave telling us what's to be expected from "standard" setups, we'd probably give scum information, especially about the vigilante since he's a one-time use. If he shot, he's a VT, and scum would gladly know that there's effectively one less blue threatening them, less so that we have a medic (I think Tolkien was killed by scum, he was polarising but at that point I think shooting Wave or Ghandi would have made more sense if you wanted to sack an "unknown").
Fwiw I didn't receive anything about being protected or shot at (was that your question, Cixah?).
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Reads I have yesterday:
And that I'll spoiler because they're kinda obsolete now, ugh.
+ Show Spoiler +My main read was Tolkien, but because I kept doubting it (see my post on the goddamn vet trio) I didn't want to commit to any of them.
He was trolling people and putting himself in the line of fire, which bred infighting and created doubt, but also compelled people to react and give information. My main argument for his towniness was that it didn't seem worth taking so much flak (and risking bandwagons against him) if he was scum, he could certainly create discord otherwise.
On the other hand he was so assertive in telling us we were wrong and rubbing it into our faces that he seemed to be throwing his weight just about as much as Wave, just in a less explicit way.
Basically I couldn't decide whether Tolkien was town putting himself in harm's way because he believe he was experienced enough to put a stop to a push against him, or very bold scum using our inexperience against us.
Well... now I know. And I'll be curious to ask him about it after the game, because he showed so much confidence from his posting. Why he wasn't followed was because of the belittling way he made his assertions, and he must have known that as a vet- so, why did he keep doing it?
At that point my "scum likeliness" scale went Tolkien > Wave > Soniv, but even Tolkien I wasn't ready to 100% commit to lynching him, hence why I wanted to examine others.
Next read was Asmodeus, because even if he expresses himself he seldom posts (like me I guess), he seemed to sheep Soniv/Wave and even me (after the vets called me town) a lot, and when he first moved to Moonbear it looked more like taking someone else's idea than his own initiative.
His case against Soniv made me reconsider though.
I wanted to examine Coma who barely posts too. Mordek doesn't either but as much as I don't want to tunnel vision I don't want to spread too much, and Mordek contributed more lately. Then there was a bandwagon on Coma earlier today which made me not want to pile up.
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Random stuff:
ketchup, I think Requizen is town. His posting at least is totally in line with what I expected from him, and as much as I hold his investigative abilities in regard, on the contrary I'm not sure how good he'd be at manipulating people (I did give him a handbook of how to look town to me in my D1 posts but I don't believe he'd have been able to manipulate me using that ). eg. he was trying to figure how the game works at first and his posting seemed different from 2nd half of D1 onward because he was getting more comfortable. Now he's involved and contributing.
Req, I guess ketchup is jumping you because he has a strong town read on me. Which makes me also wonder why he didn't react at all to Wave saying I was off his list.
Wave, are you saying I'm not "certified town" anymore, or do you think I'm scum? I think the former, it's just for clarification.
On October 14 2014 09:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
the mafia team has a magical magic ability that allows them as a team to (attempt to) kill a person every night. This is independent from their individual roles (although somebody still has to actually do it).
Mod question: Does that mean if we roleblock the scum attempting the hit, the "mafia KP" won't go through either and we won't lose anyone that night?
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Noon's reads:
With a perfectly timed Dandel vote post so I know who's getting bandwagoned on.
Wave looks more town today because we made actual progress and as long as his post is (I had to go back and read it again while typing because I'd forgotten a bunch of it), the way he went about ketchup (and the fact that it was a roleblock claim that made him switch, a pretty set-in-stone argument) is very detailed and reasonable, that's clearly town-thinking (and you're finally being more assertive).
Also that he said he thought I'd die tonight.
Counterpoints to these arguments:
+ Show Spoiler +- he's the mafia roleblocker and made a case on ketchup knowing ketchup would smash it with just "I was roleblocked tonight", so the more effort he put into it the more towncred he gets when ketchup clears himself.
- did he think I'd die because he thinks I make good points/go in the right direction? If he thinks that as scum, and wants to combine his vet status with lack of focused arguments to lead the town nowhere, then it would be weird that he didn't kill me (remove the guys who think clearly, so your shenanigans don't get exposed by contrast with them).
TL;DR: if Wave being scum requires him to be trying to WIFOM us, then he's probably town. Even moreso as a vet who pointed out how ineffective WIFOM is.
Asmodeus is pretty much cleared for me after his very solid case on Soniv. Not only because it's contributing (same as above, if I need WIFOM to find it weird, then it's probably genuine), but also because this time Asmo didn't use arguments gleaned other places (basically how he started against Moonbear: it was his vote, but Wave's arguments). He's autonomous, makes his own reads, and while I was very suspicious of him up to that one post, other people (like Requizen and Alzadar) have started meh before shaping up. Asmo town.
It also "helps" Ghandi, in that if Soniv is indeed scum, then why would he go after Ghandi twice, and especially today and so hard?
Town-Ghandi would make a good mislynch because of how hard people have been against him every time he was mentioned (Ghandi's basically the town's "default lynch until someone better shows up" at this point).
If Ghandi's scum, on the other hand, then bussing him to keep Soniv alive as a vet is probably better for the mafia. Plus they switched to ComaDose afterwards so it doesn't really look like bussing.
On the other hand it wouldn't make sense to panic and start bussing someone so early in the day, when votes will most likely move around.
Back to neutral on Ghandi... for now. Unlikely that both Ghandi and Soniv are scum, but doesn't imply that if one flips green the other is 100% red.
I was going to avoid Coma because bandwagons and he has posted but people moved toward Soniv since, and I don't like said post.
He's making a list and throwing around vague information, with just the no-risk opinion of "Ghandi's the most likely scum" immediatly followed by a "... maybe. He could just be noob!", eg. Coma doesn't give reads at all and refuses to commit to anything.
On the other hand, Coma was excused for the week-end and it's only been a day since, and Alzadar was singled out too for weird posting patterns of providing information but no meaningful analysis of it, and he's shaped up since. Day 2 still has 36 hours to it so it's not like I have to lynch now.
However... ##Vote: ComaDose Soniv's under scrutiny already, so I'm looking at you and I want answers/contribution. Not "now" now, because I know it's stupid o'clock in Canada, but the clock is ticking and I can't be as lenient as Day 1.
TL;DR: my scum reads are Soniv/ComaDose, with Mordek/Ghandi being suspicious but not as sold on them.
Ketchup/Wave/Asmo/Cixah fairly town to confirmed town.
Undecided on Alzadar/Req/owb.
Now I'm going to go and get lunch because it's 2 PM here and writing takes some time.
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As I said Wave, I didn't want to post reads during the night because I was "afraid" I could be easily swayed if scum decided to exploit them (especially with regard to how I felt I didn't want to approach your dometic affair with a 10-foot pole; joke's on me, they actually cleared up the situation for us).
I've taken some work time to write that so don't expect another post for 5-6h (I'll try to read a bit but prob not posting again till I'm home). I should post more this evening, although it's a bit hard for me because I post slowly and my ideas can be made obsolete by stuff posted while I type (so I delete then restart from scratch which delays, etc.).
What do you think about my stance on Ghandi based on the current Soniv situation? Do you still want to lynch him?
Sounds like you went from "I want Ghandi lynched, but if noone follows me I'm fine with Soniv; Asmo meh" to "Asmo's def town, noone touches him! Also Mommy wants Daddy dead (again)" but no word on Ghandi.
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On October 14 2014 22:15 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 21:19 Alaric wrote:On October 14 2014 09:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
the mafia team has a magical magic ability that allows them as a team to (attempt to) kill a person every night. This is independent from their individual roles (although somebody still has to actually do it). Mod question: Does that mean if we roleblock the scum attempting the hit, the "mafia KP" won't go through either and we won't lose anyone that night? if he is roleblocked, he is also blocked from carrying out the nightkill.
This probably sounds inane for the current game, but I'm curious now: if there is a jailkeeper vs a non-roleblocker mafia or a serial poisoner, how do you resolve the game? The jailkeeper will block the other guy every night so he can't die, but they'll tie everyday for the lynch.
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EPT
