|
On December 24 2013 05:43 Kurumi wrote:
Coagulation has played like this since I remember, as I talked with people on TS I would've told you that he is probably scum, but in a fit of rage I decided to kill myself. Sorry guys. He either posts cryptic stuff/laid back stuff when he has a cool role, does nothing if he is town OR annoys people who he thinks are scum, if he is scum he just goes "gonna cruise to victory because town never policy lynches".
Just because that type of play has been around since the Stone Age it doesn't mean that type of play should be allowed. It doesn't matter it it were Coag or Marv or god herself.
|
On December 24 2013 05:47 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:43 Kurumi wrote:
Coagulation has played like this since I remember, as I talked with people on TS I would've told you that he is probably scum, but in a fit of rage I decided to kill myself. Sorry guys. He either posts cryptic stuff/laid back stuff when he has a cool role, does nothing if he is town OR annoys people who he thinks are scum, if he is scum he just goes "gonna cruise to victory because town never policy lynches". Just because that type of play has been around since the Stone Age it doesn't mean that type of play should be allowed. It doesn't matter it it were Coag or Marv or god herself.
Then try to lynch him for it. What you did was way worse and much more frustrating to me than coags playstyle.
|
On December 24 2013 05:54 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:47 geript wrote:On December 24 2013 05:43 Kurumi wrote:
Coagulation has played like this since I remember, as I talked with people on TS I would've told you that he is probably scum, but in a fit of rage I decided to kill myself. Sorry guys. He either posts cryptic stuff/laid back stuff when he has a cool role, does nothing if he is town OR annoys people who he thinks are scum, if he is scum he just goes "gonna cruise to victory because town never policy lynches". Just because that type of play has been around since the Stone Age it doesn't mean that type of play should be allowed. It doesn't matter it it were Coag or Marv or god herself. Then try to lynch him for it. What you did was way worse and much more frustrating to me than coags playstyle.
So you're saying I should improve up to Coag's style. Thank you for proving my point. Ask and ye shall receive.
|
On December 24 2013 05:47 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:43 Kurumi wrote:
Coagulation has played like this since I remember, as I talked with people on TS I would've told you that he is probably scum, but in a fit of rage I decided to kill myself. Sorry guys. He either posts cryptic stuff/laid back stuff when he has a cool role, does nothing if he is town OR annoys people who he thinks are scum, if he is scum he just goes "gonna cruise to victory because town never policy lynches". Just because that type of play has been around since the Stone Age it doesn't mean that type of play should be allowed. It doesn't matter it it were Coag or Marv or god herself.
People somehow dealt with Coag, as far I remember it was just shooting him in the face during the night.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 24 2013 05:16 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 03:57 Koshi wrote:
geript was interesting. Vote change and kill townie over scum and then ragequit cuz he was annoyed by a scummer -_-*
Sure Coag pissed me the hell off, but I was honestly far more pissed off by the fact that the mods hadn't taken care of him before then. That type of play is 100% unacceptable imo and if I had been the mod I would've MK'd him on D1 when he had 2 posts for the whole day regardless of any reason he gives/gave. If you /in or /replace in a game and are selected to play, then I expect you to try regardless of alignment. I find it exceptionally ironic that his play has been deemed "acceptable" and my play not (as clearly evidence by mod ban request choices).
I don't think it's reasonable to expect the hosts to enforce rules that don't exist. The rule for this game was one post per cycle. Coag did not violate this rule. While I agree that the activity rules may need to be reevaluated, that's something that should be discussed regarding future games, not the current one. Furthermore, coag was mafia and extreme lurking is a viable strategy if he is playing towards his win condition. Whether or not it should be an accepted strategy can be up for discussion, but it has been accepted in the past and there is certainly no reason to expect a modkill for it this game.
|
On December 24 2013 05:40 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:25 Dandel Ion wrote:
So policy lynch him.
Hosts are not your free policy lynches on players that didn't even break any rules. Ok. Then I will specifically join games you join and make mandatory posts and nothing more just to force you to policy lynch me. You will see how "fun" that becomes. Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:27 jaybrundage wrote:
Lurking is a strategy as scum. Granted not a great one. There's a difference between "lurking" and not playing. Coag did the latter.
I mean I get that you like roleplaying the bronze elo guy that only blames others for everything and thinks he'd be diamond1 if not for ELO HELL, but the game is over, you don't have to do it anymore.
Actually, the last couple post were more of a "MID OR FEED" -> "NO MID OK I TROLL" kinda thing, but eh, same division really.
|
On December 24 2013 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think everyone in this game deserves a ban :X
Hey I managed to keep my cool 
On December 24 2013 06:00 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:40 geript wrote:On December 24 2013 05:25 Dandel Ion wrote:
So policy lynch him.
Hosts are not your free policy lynches on players that didn't even break any rules. Ok. Then I will specifically join games you join and make mandatory posts and nothing more just to force you to policy lynch me. You will see how "fun" that becomes. On December 24 2013 05:27 jaybrundage wrote:
Lurking is a strategy as scum. Granted not a great one. There's a difference between "lurking" and not playing. Coag did the latter. I mean I get that you like roleplaying the bronze elo guy that only blames others for everything and thinks he'd be diamond1 if not for ELO HELL, but the game is over, you don't have to do it anymore. Actually, the last couple post were more of a "MID OR FEED" -> "NO MID OK I TROLL" kinda thing, but eh, same division really.
|
On December 24 2013 05:59 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:16 geript wrote:On December 24 2013 03:57 Koshi wrote:
geript was interesting. Vote change and kill townie over scum and then ragequit cuz he was annoyed by a scummer -_-*
Sure Coag pissed me the hell off, but I was honestly far more pissed off by the fact that the mods hadn't taken care of him before then. That type of play is 100% unacceptable imo and if I had been the mod I would've MK'd him on D1 when he had 2 posts for the whole day regardless of any reason he gives/gave. If you /in or /replace in a game and are selected to play, then I expect you to try regardless of alignment. I find it exceptionally ironic that his play has been deemed "acceptable" and my play not (as clearly evidence by mod ban request choices). I don't think it's reasonable to expect the hosts to enforce rules that don't exist. The rule for this game was one post per cycle. Coag did not violate this rule. While I agree that the activity rules may need to be reevaluated, that's something that should be discussed regarding future games, not the current one. Furthermore, coag was mafia and extreme lurking is a viable strategy if he is playing towards his win condition. Whether or not it should be an accepted strategy can be up for discussion, but it has been accepted in the past and there is certainly no reason to expect a modkill for it this game.
Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. This does not mean, for example, that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. If you're not playing to win you risk a modkill. This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game; I will attempt to accommodate.
So this wasn't in the OP? So "playing to win" doesn't include playing the game? I firmly disagree with you. There's a clear difference between Lurking and not fucking posting at all ever. In the ~150-200 pages that Coag played the game, he had a page and a half of filter. Being 3.33% to 4.54% of the player but posting < 1% of the discourse while having 0 content whatsoever, that's playing to win as scum? That's not playing to win as any alignment. Expect me to come back as fast as I can to implement this "winning strategy" regardless of alignment.
|
On December 24 2013 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think everyone in this game deserves a ban :X
hey now, no need to be salty that I made you useless <3
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On December 24 2013 05:47 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:43 Kurumi wrote:
Coagulation has played like this since I remember, as I talked with people on TS I would've told you that he is probably scum, but in a fit of rage I decided to kill myself. Sorry guys. He either posts cryptic stuff/laid back stuff when he has a cool role, does nothing if he is town OR annoys people who he thinks are scum, if he is scum he just goes "gonna cruise to victory because town never policy lynches". Just because that type of play has been around since the Stone Age it doesn't mean that type of play should be allowed. It doesn't matter it it were Coag or Marv or god herself.
Tautology.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Post Game Thoughts
I think the drafting phase was handled poorly by town and mafia, which is unfortunate as this is probably the most important part of a Pick Your Power game. I can't stress enough how big of a mistake it was to not ban out the inventor. I'm not sure if the mafia team simply overlooked it's presence, if they thought they could grab it from themselves, or if they thought the other roles were stronger. During role creation, there was some discussion on whether or not the inventor should be cut from the setup. The biggest issue with the role is that it forces the hosts influence the balance of the game after the game starts. As the inventor, Koshi obviously wants to create an item that is as broken as possible to reach his win condition. As hosts, we have to try to determine what is reasonable, which is always going to rely on opinion, rather than a set standard. If we make it too strong, the mafia team complains about balance, if it's too weak, then koshi looks bad to town for not having a huge impact on the game. In all honesty, we didn't think the inventor would make it into the game. Unfortunately, it did and it resulted in an incredible amount of overhead each night cycle.
Since the mafia team did decide to let koshi live, they needed a plan to deal with him. The setup had a ton of protective roles and killing him through brute force wasn't going to be possible on day one. At one point in the mafia quicktopic, they had singled out koshi as the player they wanted to bring to endgame. This is a huge mistake, considering his role. Would you ever consider bringing a claimed detective to day nine? Obviously not. So why would you bring a inventor, who is clearly more powerful than a detective considering they could create an investigative item every cycle.
I really think that the mafia team should have drafted not one, but two roleblockers. Imagine how different the game would have been if the mafia team could target block the inventor and one other power role every night cycle. The town went for a partial mass claim so there were so it would have been so easy for them to deny the game changing actions. Originally, Oats had chose kassadin, but at the last minute, he swapped to Cho and ended up with vanilla. This was a huge swing that really devastated the mafia team.
I wasn't a fan of the mafia's decision to overlap numbers in the draft. The town cred reward simply isn't worth the cost in draft position. There was 1 mafia player in the top ten. That shouldn't happen. Imagine if Mocsta and Oats had a more favorable draft position. Not only would they possibly not end up vanilla, but they would have also increased the chances that the town players below them overlap and end up vanilla themselves. The two vanilla roles really hurt the mafia team's chances. There were plenty of strong kp roles that never made it into the game that they definitely would have benefited from.
Now onto the mass claim. There are clearly benefits to this plan if everyone is on-board. In a Pick Your Power Game, one of the biggest benefits is that you can avoid pick overlap. A full blue game clearly rewards town. If you're going to mass claim, DO IT BEFORE THE PICKING PHASE. There were seven vanilla town roles. Seven! I believe four people picked Lux and three people picked karma. Now think about this logically. Before the draft, everyone mass claims, the picks order is announced to avoid overlap and everyone gets a role. What happened instead was that everyone tried for Lux, only one player gets the role, and then VE claims that he got his Lux role near the start of the game. That's such an inefficient plan.
Whenever a mass claim occurs, the mafia team is always late to the party because they don't want to give up information that limits their options. This almost never fails and is another benefit of a mass claim.
- jcarlsoniv - Soft Blue claim, cannot deal damage
- kushm4sta
- Rean - Lux-> VT
- JonnyLaw
- ticklishmusic - Taric
- gtrsrs - Kha'Zix -> VT
- OdinOfPergo - Karma -> VT
- Roffles
- Onegu
- VisceraEyes - Lux
- Risen - Karma
- Kenpachi - Blue Claim
- Coagulation
- geript - Warwick? -> VT?
- Promethelax
- supersoft
- austinmcc
- raynpelikoneet - Shen
- Mig
- Mocsta -No claim -> VT
- Oatsmaster - Cho'Gath ->VT
- jaybrundage - Ezreal?
- LSB - Tynd
- Koshi - Viktor
- marvellosity - Blue Claim
- justanothertownie
- sandroba - Fiora
- Meapak_Ziphh
Take a look at the claim list by the end of night one. Nearly half of the players that chose not to immediately were mafia. Only 1 mafia out of six claimed their pick. So essentially town gains zero information about the mafia roles, yet the mafia gains a ton of information about the town roles. If you're not mass claiming to avoid pick overlaps and you're not mass claiming to control the mafia blue roles, what's the point?
It felt as if the mafia team did not have a long term plan at some points. In a large game, a mafia irc channel can be incredibly helpful for this. At times, it seemed as if each mafia player was playing their own solo game and they would react to the town's actions, rather than control the thread and night actions themselves.
On December 07 2013 12:01 Mid or Feed wrote:
Vote count:
supersoft (0): VisceraEyes, jaybrundage
Rean (0): raynpelikoneet
JonnyLaw (0): Mocsta, geript
austinmcc (9): Rean, sandroba, Mocsta, raynpelikoneet, justanothertownie, Oatsmaster, VisceraEyes, kushm4sta, sandroba, Meapak_Zipph, jaybrundage, mkfuba07, Risen, geript
OdinOfPergo (1): Onegu
Koshi (0): Chezinu
kushm4sta (0): LSB, sandroba
ticklishmusic (0): ticklishmusic
jcarlsoniv (2): Risen, gtrsrs, kushm4sta, ticklishmusic
Chezinu (0): ticklishmusic
Meapak_Zipph (8): austinmcc, Mocsta, geript, Mig, Koshi, kushm4sta, Chezinu, supersoft, justanothertownie
Roffles (6): Oatsmaster, Roffles, supersoft, kushm4sta, jcarlsoniv, Coagulation, LSB, JonnyLaw
Risen (0): Koshi
VisceraEyes (0): jcarlsoniv
Mig (0): Chezinu
LSB (0): JonnyLaw
Modkill zone (1): OdinOfPergo,
[b]austinmcc[blue] is lynched.
Take a look at the day two lynch results. Eight out of the nine players on austin are town. The only mafia player voting for austin is voting this way because he has no other choice. While things happened to work out for the mafia team with the last minute swap by geript, I really think that this was closer than it should have been. The mafia team got caught with their pants down by loading up on Roffles and they weren't around or were unwilling to commit to save Meapak. In my opinion, with so many town players already on austin, they should worked a bit harder to guarantee that there wasn't a day two mafia lynch. If you're going to take the town cred route by refusing to save Meapak early, you have to cash in on that cred later in the game. If I were mafia, right after Meapak flipped red, I would have taken this vote list, pointed out every single player on the list that has already flipped green, and then attempted to pin the next lynch on JayB as hard as I could.
Prom definitely deserves props for having very strong reads day one after replacing in. Don't forget to always questions the night hit choices and go back and reread their filters. Coordinating the town kp onto JohnnyLaw was definitely one of the high points for town. At one point, fuba killed himself with the koshi invention and took a same parity check of roffles and gtr to his grave. He definitely should have claimed this information before dieing as these were two players that certainly could have been mislynched if it weren't for the modkills. To some degree, I think most of the modkills may have hurt the mafia team as they lost out on the opportunity to lynch several players. Credit is also due to the players that stayed active late game. Plenty of times, everyone will be tired out by this point and will lose due to apathy. Mocsta in particular was impressive from the amount of effort he was putting in until the bitter end.
From a setup standpoint, I think it was a minor miracle that the game ended as close as it did. Wave put a TON of effort into this setup and undoubtedly deserves props for that. Balancing this was a nightmare. The toughest part was certainly using the HP system. It was extremely difficult to come up with damage, factional kill point, and health values. We actually attempted a 3-4 hour dry run through of the game with me, Wave, and dandel randomizing pick selection and night actions. The game ended in a mafia blowout on like day 4. Now that we've seen the game play out once, I think it would be fair to say that the setup is a bit too town favored. Having knowledge of all the roles that weren't picked, I think there is simply too many ways to interupt the mafia kp, which was large to begin with. In our trial run, the mafia ended up with several strong kp roles and was simply able to blitzkrieg everyone to death the first few cycles. The mafia kp was scaled back and we added a 7th mafia member to compensate. Unfortunately, this game the mafia team only ended up with two strong kp roles and their 1600 base kp really wasn't enough to eliminate the threats early. That being said, I think town played a bit stronger overall so I'm happy with the outcome.
Another issue with this setup was that only around 20 roles were picked out of nearly 60 total. With each role having two abilities, that's only 40 abilities out of 120 total. The amount of work that was spent on roles turned out to be incredibly inefficient if the setup is only run once. For each ability, it had to be compared to the other 119 abilities to make sure that there weren't any weird interactions and that turned out to be really overwhelming. One thing we considered was to balance the kp and hp after the pick phase. Rather than trying to go crazy trying to come up with all the scenarios during role selection to guess the relative power of each faction, we would have had an exact role list and balanced based on that. However, that would have meant that the town or mafia factions would be punished based on having a strong draft phase and we wanted to avoid that. There were some weird setup related issues that we didn't anticipate that could have been cleaned up in the future. While the player flavor text was cool and enhanced the theme of the game, it also contributed to the spam in the game thread. Mocsta managed to get himself in trouble by using part of his real role flavor and part of his fake claim flavor and was punished due to his lack of LoL knowledge. Meapak got himself caught in a lie about not claiming his ultimate as his second abilities. While he had the roles of his entire scum team to look at, we probably should have made it more clear in the OP how the roles worked to avoid this. Coag misinterpreted his role, not realizing that the nuke target would be posted in the thread. He actually wasn't even required to post in the thread to launch the nuke, which really ended up hurting him in the end.
I'm not really going to comment about the modkills and the thread atmosphere, but it was definitely disappointing at times. All I ask is that you realize the game isn't just about you when you join. The hosts and your fellow players all have put their valuable time into the game, so if you get upset with something, try your best to save it until post game, rather than ruining the experience for others.
Hope you enjoyed the game!
|
Read my role
Mega Inferno Bomb - Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! Once per game you can launch a massive nuke at target player. At the end of the phase, it will deal 400 KP to that player, 200 KP to those next to him on the signup list and then 100 KP to the two players next to those. Can be used during the day or at night, however the nuke must be launched at least 12 hours before phase end. The nuke will be announced in thread.
The NUKE WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN THREAD. doesnt say "THE NUKE AND TARGET WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN THREAD"
how the fuck can the target be known anyway? You cant possibly know the target of a nuke when its launching from a launch pad. thats so fucking illogical. You would need to be able to see the future.
This has been a terrible unjustice to me and I demand compensation.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 24 2013 06:52 Coagulation wrote:
Read my role
Mega Inferno Bomb - Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! Once per game you can launch a massive nuke at target player. At the end of the phase, it will deal 400 KP to that player, 200 KP to those next to him on the signup list and then 100 KP to the two players next to those. Can be used during the day or at night, however the nuke must be launched at least 12 hours before phase end. The nuke will be announced in thread.
The NUKE WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN THREAD. doesnt say "THE NUKE AND TARGET WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN THREAD"
how the fuck can the target be known anyway? You cant possibly know the target of a nuke when its launching from a launch pad. thats so fucking illogical. You would need to be able to see the future.
This has been a terrible unjustice to me and I demand compensation.
Well there are the 20 other games with nukes where the target is announced if you were unsure but fine, accept these 50 Big Brother Dollars as payment for our wrongdoing.
|
*hands cookie to Coag*
here
Meapak got himself caught in a lie about not claiming his ultimate as his second abilities. While he had the roles of his entire scum team to look at, we probably should have made it more clear in the OP how the roles worked to avoid this.
I disagree actually. M_Z messed up here - the rest of us were able to deduce that champions had their ultimates. However, I think the biggest reason we caught it was because the power he claimed was so utterly bad that it couldn't possibly be in the game. It was lots worse than even any regular ability, let alone the fact he claimed it as one shot. That's on him, I don't think you should have been explicit in that regard.
And I acknowledge the amount of balancing work you guys put in, which is why I would love to see more iterations of this theme. There's a lot of cool things that can happen.
|
75 Big Brother Dollars and we are square.
|
kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On December 24 2013 06:57 Coagulation wrote:
75 Big Brother Dollars and we are square.
Fine, but only upon the condition that I control your jury vote.
|
Sorry Coag, I actually felt really bad about that; if you had asked for clarification I would have given it to you. I suppose like kita said, I just assumed that people knew how nukes worked.
As far as kita's analysis, I don't think I have a whole lot to add---I think he basically covered anything we had talked about.
I'll think about it and post a little later.
|
On December 24 2013 04:58 WaveofShadow wrote:
Picks and bans were handled pretty poorly by the scumteam and they were very uncoordinated throughout the beginning of the game. There was no synergy in their roles, a lot of powerful roles (imo) were not even considered by the scumteam, and a massclaim plan may very well have screwed them over at some point.
For the record I would probably be one of those players who refuses to claim as town in a PYP. Takes a lot of the fun out of it for me, and as such there were roles and mechanics included that would punish or mostly prevent a massclaim from working perfectly. WW was a huge role for either town or scum as you guys know, but the role...*ahem* exited the game early.
If people have specific questions about stuff that happened/setup stuff I can answer when I get the chance.
I think the bans were done fairly well but the picks were horrible.
I tried to get people to choose roles but inactivity totally fubared that phase of the game.
Getting ziggs, malz, and evelyn I thought were insanely awesome but wukong as a role didn't really help us a bit.
|
IIRC, being wukong saved MZ from instadying to the parity crown n2 and roleblocked a bunch of townies in addition.
|
Yeah it's pretty funny how that worked out. Wukong wasn't a great role for scum in comparison to many others and yet it worked out about as well as MZ could have hoped.
The bans were alright in that most of the investigative roles were eliminated; alternatively as kita mentioned you guys could have gone more RB-heavy (or even KP heavy). As it was you had some decent KP values compared to town---I was actually pretty surprised at how low town KP was given the amount of *possible* KP roles 
Note to myself for later: I want to write about the roles people discussed regarding picks/bans.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
