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On December 24 2013 07:45 WaveofShadow wrote:Yeah it's pretty funny how that worked out. Wukong wasn't a great role for scum in comparison to many others and yet it worked out about as well as MZ could have hoped. The bans were alright in that most of the investigative roles were eliminated; alternatively as kita mentioned you guys could have gone more RB-heavy (or even KP heavy). As it was you had some decent KP values compared to town---I was actually pretty surprised at how low town KP was given the amount of *possible* KP roles  Note to myself for later: I want to write about the roles people discussed regarding picks/bans.
I wanted to stack kp roles. However each of us early game had a ton of stuff on our plate and could barely find time to be around to get things going. Was a shame we only got 3 kp roles. Also a shame that apparently onegu didn't realize why I thought malz was so OP and thus wasn't able to get the best use from the role.
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Actually having more iterations of LOL mafia would be amazing. I'm actually glad I got to join this one. Even tho wave forgot to pm COUGH COUGH 
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GG town. I think this game was over from Day1. The only thing that kept us running was Marv being replaced. No1 has discussed this post-game but I thought it made a big difference.
Congrats to Kush for never letting go of that read.
Kita, there are a few things I would do differently if this game was replayed but you were spot on that scum were all doing their own thing. This game was basically 7 SKs vs town - unfortunately.
Marv, I think I chose Fiddlestix cos he was a KP hero that was not being discussed.
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On December 24 2013 05:10 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:09 kitaman27 wrote:On December 24 2013 04:54 Dandel Ion wrote:
But there probably won't be a LoL 2. Wave doesn't get enough of his helicoptering fix out of hosting, kita is kita, and I'm too lazy. DON'T COUNT OUT UMASI Who?
hue.
I'll write player pms again if we do another one
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My reasons for why mocsta was scum were so good. Then sandroba comes along with something that barely makes sense and everyone listens to him.
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On December 24 2013 09:53 kushm4sta wrote:
My reasons for why mocsta was scum were so good. Then sandroba comes along with something that barely makes sense and everyone listens to him.
I didn't. I defended Mocsta till the end.
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On December 24 2013 09:53 kushm4sta wrote:
My reasons for why mocsta was scum were so good. Then sandroba comes along with something that barely makes sense and everyone listens to him.
Like i got your reasons:
i.e. I interpretted Austin comments in the worst way possible.
But i dont see why it was enough for a 180 read on me.
Others agreed (IIRC Rayn) that my interpretation was valid; and Austin never questioned I read it that way either.
In my opinion, the closest someone got to a genuine case on me was JAT with:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2013 06:38 justanothertownie wrote:Ok, I took my time and went trough Mocstas filter. I don't think I will move my vote today if he doesn't come back and impresses me. The interactions with MZ do look kinda faked. Day 2 he campaigned for austin till the wagon was really picking up steam with influential players on it. Then he abandoned it, voted MZ and peaced (stating he wouldn't come back before deadline). He couldn't have known how much heat MZ would get at that point so this to me looks like distancing from a austin or roffles mislynch (both were way in the front at that time) and parking his vote on a scumbuddy to look good later. He was also the first (I think) to propose that scum Coag wouldn't have made the drama about shooting MZ if MZ was scum. Putting MZ as second best scumread from now on and doesn't vote him till directly before deadline. The bus on JL looks hard but at the end of the dayphases Mocsta always finds a way to vote someone else over him (JL is always only his second best scumread when it gets important). How he voted bum is especially fishy. He also wanted us to use a lynch instead of shooting JL when this was planned. He doesn't call Onegu and Coag town but he tries to buy time for them at some point. There is this little detail about his usage of <b></b> that rayn pointed out. He has oats as a soft townread for the whole game it seems. I think oats is scummy. Also it is interesting how he instantly asks rayn who he taunted after risen and rayn received dmg. Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 20:04 Mocsta wrote:On December 11 2013 19:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:On December 11 2013 19:56 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn, who did you taunt? scum who is lying, most likely. I thought if you taunt someone, you redirect their action to you @ 50% + I thought you + RIsen were some sort of lovers? Looks like to me, you taunted 50KP out of someone, and it lover reflected to Risen? This post came up before rayn revealed that he taunted Mocsta. Hmm. This stuff + the lengthy discussed HP/25 dmg/marksman business is enough for me to not feel bad about leaving my vote on Mocsta.
Having said that, I most likely wouldn't have lied about my HP as town. So that was a valid reason to lynch, but frustrating reason nonetheless.
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On December 24 2013 09:05 Mocsta wrote:
GG town. I think this game was over from Day1. The only thing that kept us running was Marv being replaced. No1 has discussed this post-game but I thought it made a big difference.
Congrats to Kush for never letting go of that read.
Kita, there are a few things I would do differently if this game was replayed but you were spot on that scum were all doing their own thing. This game was basically 7 SKs vs town - unfortunately.
Marv, I think I chose Fiddlestix cos he was a KP hero that was not being discussed.
Mocsta, best scum award goes to you this game imo. Even when I was 99.9% sure you were scum every time you posted you made me go back and reconsider. Gratz.
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Internet is shit right now so doubt I'll write much unless it improves---Mocsta how would you have done things differently? Do you mean you yourself or something that we (hosts) should have done balance-wise?
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On December 24 2013 11:41 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 09:05 Mocsta wrote:
GG town. I think this game was over from Day1. The only thing that kept us running was Marv being replaced. No1 has discussed this post-game but I thought it made a big difference.
Congrats to Kush for never letting go of that read.
Kita, there are a few things I would do differently if this game was replayed but you were spot on that scum were all doing their own thing. This game was basically 7 SKs vs town - unfortunately.
Marv, I think I chose Fiddlestix cos he was a KP hero that was not being discussed. Mocsta, best scum award goes to you this game imo. Even when I was 99.9% sure you were scum every time you posted you made me go back and reconsider. Gratz.
This was my thing too. I suspected Mocsta and he always had a post that made me go "Okaaaaaay............"
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if I would not have lost my cool because of that Item, this game would have ended differently...
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I don't think enough attention is being paid to my filter: town should have reread my filter at least more than the zero times it got read. The night one kill was the only kill in a game with Marv, sandroba, Austin, VE, mig, SS and others; someone should have looked at why that player was shot and no one did on the entire game. Even more so when half my reads had flipped accurately. You guys should have given some credence to my town reads (soniv, you particularly ignored very good reasons for jayb to be town which caused an unnecessary tunnel) and my scum reads (your JL shots made me happy at least).
This game as a whole was pretty good. Neither team played very well bit they both played poorly together, which I liked.
Wave, you and your team did a damn good job of hosting this game. I know how crazy a game of this size can be so I'm pleased at how well you all did.
Town: you sucked. Scum: you sucked worse. Everyone: I had a good time playing and a good time obsing. Thanks for playing! Those of you who didn't play: fuck you for not playing! Geript and Odin I forgive you both because you have both shown interest in making things better in the future.
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Prome, I read your filter many times man. You played incredibly well props to you.
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On December 24 2013 11:45 WaveofShadow wrote:
Mocsta how would you have done things differently? Do you mean you yourself or something that we (hosts) should have done balance-wise?
(1)
I would have changed up the night kills somewhat.
I think Night1 was more than reasonable.
After that, I valued people that werent onto me too much and forgot how quickly the game can turn around.
In hindsight, Koshi really needed to be eliminated so thats a big lesson I learnt.
Sandroba was difficult, of course we wanted him dead but that reflect was really fucking with my head.
(2)
I would have PM you guys for VT flavour before screwing myself over. That was a really bad mistake.
Truth is: When I got my VT PM, it was red - so for whatever reason when I got my VT ability to move the list (which I thought was scummy in general) and was hearing about townies getting abilities to shoot 50KP I was like wtf.. is this a balance mechanism.
Sigh 
WoS, as I said in ObsQT: This was a really well setup game and run impeccably.
Modkills sucked for scum, cos a lot of them were potential mislynches - but this is a constant in any game so it just is what it is.
The real shame of this game was the amount of VTs. Would have been *REAL* hectic if somehow everyone had a hero.
One thing I want to applaud you for is the transparency in resolving actions.
Especially towards the end-game, this was used by all parties still in the game.
So massive kudos to this.
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Alright let's see stuff to mention:
Champion picks:
I was pretty fascinated overall with the roles people considered strong or weak. Tryndamere for example was a huge point of contention in the early game because people just sort of assumed that he'd be dealing massive AoE damage to everybody constantly when in reality the damage was miniscule and would be fairly easily trackable. I'm well aware people weren't aware of numbers or how the balancing was done exactly, and there were obfuscating factors (ie 2nd ability) but many people made a lot of early and very correct inferences while others didn't bother and just went with the bare minimum of information they were given.
This brings me to my second point on this topic---whether or not you guys were aware, this game was made to encourage role speculation early on. Again there was a lot of stuff missing but there were clues, and even for the people who didn't/don't play LoL a lot of that info was filled in for you real early by others (and there's Google ). It was probably possible to figure earlier on that each champion had a regular ability and an ultimate, for example. Even if you didn't want to speculate on roles, however, the fact that the revealed champion role info gave you less than 50% of the total info meant that there are certainly other possibilities in the game than those revealed. Some people considered this (where the massclaim was concerned, for example) but completely ignored it when it came to champion selection, instead simply choosing those champions whose revealed abilities seemed pretty decent, when in fact I would argue many of the champion that didn't get chosen or even mentioned could have been way more OP. (And yet two people also vied for Kha'zix, who had NOTHING revealed about his role!) Game strategy purists may argue that it's better to go with what you know and can see than take a risk on something else, but I made this game to be fun, and sometimes taking a risk offers a decent payoff. I certainly didn't expect only 1/3 of the total champions to be considered due to my obfuscation of info---so in the end whether that is my fault in considering what players would find important and/or useful I guess you guys can be the judges of that. The game certainly would have gone much faster and night actions would have been WAY more insane if 1/3 of the playerbase wasn't vanilla.
The Inventor: Won't say much about this because I think it's been said. Koshi was patient with me/the other hosts (but mostly me) at times, and not at others, especially when he was being called terrible by the thread when we really DID change shit up on him. It was a really tough call to make on a lot of these because oftentimes players are only considering what crazy OP shit they can do flat-out break and win the game, and obviously I was not willing to let that happen. This is probably ultimately my mistake as kita mentioned---we essentially assumed the role would have been banned out as scum so we didn't bother writing a lot of the original specfics into the role I had in mind (originally he would have had a list of items to choose from). This meant I had to play a hands-on role to prevent my game from being broken---some could call this bastard hosting I suppose so lesson learned---- but in the end since scum didn't even bother dealing with him most of the time and we couldn't just keep wrecking everything he did for balance purposes eventually the stronger inventions started to win out. I'll blame myself partly for that and partly scum for ignoring what is often the strongest town role in any PYP game for so long.
Balance: right at the outset I assumed scum would lose considering how drafting and picks went. Coordination of a scumteam in PYP games is paramount and it basically didn't happen. A lot of roles I would have figured would e great grabs for scum weren't even talked about or considered. As the modkills went out though, scum morale was boosted and SS and Mocsta really got things going and played a very strong game. I think there was a way too much focus on bussing of teammates in this game however, especially since for 3/4 of the game town weren't even focused on hunting scum or bothering with towncred, they simply fucked around with role speculation and mechanics (which were important in this game obviously, but should never be brought to the forefront ahead of basic scumhunting, as sandroba eventually showed). If I had to run this again I'm not sure how much I would change. We were actually considering a scum 'factional roleblock' at one point simply because something like 20 estimated blue roles (if scum didn't manage to snag a RB role) meant any scumteam would be quickly overwhelmed. I would gladly accept suggestions if people thought there were problems with balance here---overall I'd say it's really tough to say if the game is balanced or not, not only because of all the modkilling, but because the role synergy possibilities and possible KP has drastic potential to swing the game one way or the other.
As far as a PYP LoL 2 as some people mentioned----this game does have the potential to be played again, hell probably multiple times considering the unused roles and easy possibility of creation of new ones. If we were worried about it being easier for town since the mechanics would be largely know we could always throw in some curveballs. The more pressing point is the behaviour and sheer intervention that was forced on me in this game really turned me off of hosting any future games. I won't rant too long about this because I think people know how I feel, but I suppose when people ragequit my game because they're not haivng fun, I can't help but take it personally. Same with a large percentage of the playerbase replacing out. I'm not sure for many of those people if the game wasn't want they wanted or expected, they though it sucked, it was the players they were forced to play with or a combination of all three, but since this game had the largest number of modkills/replacement I can think of in recent times, again I can't help but think something about my game must have been a factor. I'm glad there were people who enjoyed themselves despite the atmosphere at times and the modkillings, and appreciate all those who kept their cool and played it out, even under adversity. To sum this up, maybe my expectations of this game or of the people in it were a little too high? I don't know. In any case the amount of stress and upset it caused me at times made me feel like it wasn't worth the amount of time I spent on it. Behaviour and playstyle stuff has been discussed to death in other threads so I'll only talk about me. As far as I can tell, I won't want to be hosting/creating any other games for TL because I'll always have grand designs and I'll always be upset if they don't live up to my expectations.
If people were truly interested in a LoL 2, I'd basically have to ensure ahead of time that the people playing it would be those who specifically requested it and would enjoy it and I doubt there is any way to guarantee that. Even then it would be a very long time before it makes it to the forefront of the queue---I just don' see it happening.
I welcome any further discussion or questions.
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On December 24 2013 12:37 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 11:45 WaveofShadow wrote:
Mocsta how would you have done things differently? Do you mean you yourself or something that we (hosts) should have done balance-wise? (1) I would have changed up the night kills somewhat. I think Night1 was more than reasonable. After that, I valued people that werent onto me too much and forgot how quickly the game can turn around. In hindsight, Koshi really needed to be eliminated so thats a big lesson I learnt. Sandroba was difficult, of course we wanted him dead but that reflect was really fucking with my head. (2) I would have PM you guys for VT flavour before screwing myself over. That was a really bad mistake. Truth is: When I got my VT PM, it was red - so for whatever reason when I got my VT ability to move the list (which I thought was scummy in general) and was hearing about townies getting abilities to shoot 50KP I was like wtf.. is this a balance mechanism. Sigh
WoS, as I said in ObsQT: This was a really well setup game and run impeccably. Modkills sucked for scum, cos a lot of them were potential mislynches - but this is a constant in any game so it just is what it is. The real shame of this game was the amount of VTs. Would have been *REAL* hectic if somehow everyone had a hero. One thing I want to applaud you for is the transparency in resolving actions.Especially towards the end-game, this was used by all parties still in the game. So massive kudos to this.
I appreciate the compliments Mocsta, though I think the 'impeccably-ness' of how it was run probably goes to my cohosts, especially at endgame where they basically ran it themselves as I was gone. They also helped me figure a lot of stuff out that I wasn't sure of new-host-wise (ie modkills vs not, etc).
What do you mean exactly by the transparency of resolving actions though and that people used it?
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Priorities of actioons and traps etc
I felt host interaction wasn't required as it was spelt out clearly.
There were no arguments about why things occurred which is rare in my experience.
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On December 24 2013 11:58 Promethelax wrote:
I don't think enough attention is being paid to my filter: town should have reread my filter at least more than the zero times it got read. The night one kill was the only kill in a game with Marv, sandroba, Austin, VE, mig, SS and others; someone should have looked at why that player was shot and no one did on the entire game. Even more so when half my reads had flipped accurately. You guys should have given some credence to my town reads (soniv, you particularly ignored very good reasons for jayb to be town which caused an unnecessary tunnel) and my scum reads (your JL shots made me happy at least).
Noted, thanks for the feedback
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Wheeee I played like absolute shit. Sorry scumteam.
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On December 24 2013 13:19 Mocsta wrote:
Priorities of actioons and traps etc
I felt host interaction wasn't required as it was spelt out clearly.
There were no arguments about why things occurred which is rare in my experience.
There were a few interesting cases where we had to think it out, but yeah most of the time it all worked itself out. (This is a lot of what took so long in the setup---trying to find and 'debug' edge cases was very difficult. kita is very good at that.)
One such case was SS ggetting taunted and gold carding rayn. Redirects happen first then RBs then damage so we had to 'split up' the components of rayn's ability so rayn redirects SS, then gets RBed so instead of eating 50 damage from damage reduction, that part of his ability gets roleblocked and he eats the full 100. It probably could have been done multiple ways but hosts have to make calls sometimes (we did a LOT thihs game).
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EPT
