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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 02 2013 09:21 StiMaDDict wrote:
@RDO: Two times I said I will elaborate is first on infi, which I stated that I dropped my suspicion on him completely, and on my case on you upon request, which I never did get.
Your case against me was that my posts were kind of waffling then, which is true, and not something that really needed to be pointed out
Other than that though, I'd like to see to take a real stand
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 02 2013 09:24 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:22 reps)squishy wrote:
I can help win this game much more then RDaneelOlivaw or sc_a.M. I am trying my best to get information out of people to help town win. I know I unvoted and voted other people but I do that to try to get people to talk. RDaneelOlivaw is busy or a lurker so he was my first vote. Usami defended me which I thought I could do my self so I thought he was defending me as a scum cover up changed my mind and went with infii because he seems pretty shady does no come up with answers but excuses. This is only half true. But keep it up RDO, you walk a fine line.
:O such high praise :p
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Vatican City State732 Posts
As you can see I've been trying to pick up my posting in the past couple of pages. Started slow obviously.
I'm concerned a little about Stim still. I haven't seen an in-depth post from him, he's mostly just one liners, and nobody has called him out on it at all. I understand why you've looked at some of my posts, since most of them were pretty reactionary, but why has he gotten so little attention?
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Vatican City State732 Posts
I found his filter to be scummy because of the how he kept talking about all the guides he had been studying. I honestly overestimated him as a player. As you all were quick to point out, he was either bad town or mafia, and his he claimed to be so well read on the game I assumed he was a mafia member who had not quite learned how to play his hand with subtlety. To be fair, I think I was probably a little hard on him, he did get thrown into a rough situation. My estimation of Deus was based off of the first couple of pages I read, where he was being aggressive against reps with what I saw as little reason, which is why I initally questioned his motives. Unwarranted aggression so early seems a bit scummy to me. As I dug in deeper to reps posts though I began to suspect him myself, for the above mentioned reasons, which is why I withdrew my statement against Deus and shifted my attention towards reps.
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Vatican City State732 Posts
Thought process through the posts:
On August 01 2013 10:14 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
Seems really suspicious to me that DeusX keeps trying to nail squishy. Umasi and Alak, why did you withdraw your votes for him? Did I miss something earlier in the thread?
As I mentioned, found Deus suspicious---obviously two of you had as well, and I wondered why you had withdrawn since I couldn't see a reason immediately.
Also, again with the suspicison of him trying to nail reps
On August 01 2013 10:27 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I take back what I said earlier about Deus...just found that awesome filter tool. Reps does look shady as hell...he has an excuse for everything, and that whole newbie act at the beginning was pretty fishy...I agree with Deus anyway at this point. At some point we're going to have to deal with him anyway, right now he is just muddying the waters.
Here is where I filtered and saw what reps had posted..basically about how much he had read and then all the sketchy signs he was giving off initially.
See here:
On July 31 2013 07:59 reps)squishy wrote:
So I have read a few TL Mafia games to try to get a grasp of the game. People love lynching people who don't post. What do you guys think of non-posters? Should we lynch them and hang them in the entrance of the town to let them all see that scums are not allowed here?
On July 31 2013 15:00 reps)squishy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:58 Alakaslam wrote:On July 31 2013 12:21 reps)squishy wrote:Well taking that DeusXmachina has already posted to lynch me Here I am going to remain neutral and NOT lynch him he may be town and, the more town the better right? It is day one and despite him going against me there is no evidence that he scum or an aggressive townsman or something else. Pfft. 'Scuse me, yeah there is. Coming I am Hapless Peon (Vanilla Townie) what you claimed to be
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=262&topic_id=422313
All trying to play up his newbiness despite his claims that he's read through all these threads. Just didn't add up to me, which is why I switched to him
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Vatican City State732 Posts
Right now the biggest read I think we are missing is gotard. He was super aggressive at the beginning for little reason, really tried to go after infii
+ Show Spoiler +On July 31 2013 20:28 Gotard wrote:This game will be hard. A lot of lurkers and two of the most confusing people in the whole universe: Umasi and Alakaslam. reps)squishy - He's posting isn't pro town whatsoever. Hue huehuehue. Really? If you are newbie better start posting reads/thought/analysis infii - My first post in my last game was pretty similar to what you have written right here. I was mafia. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 17:47 infii wrote:
Unfortunately I can't be as active as I would like to be, but I'll try to post as often as I can.
So I'll go ahead and tell you my thoughts up until now after reading all the posts.
Umasi is at the top of my suspicious-list right now, because it seems he tries to stir things up and doesn't act neutral in any way. (e.g. anti deus - pro reps).
However that is not enough for me to vote on him... it's still the first day, right?
DeusXmachina took an early stance which backfired at him so now he tries to get clear of it. Seems legit aka town.
Holyflare is pretty neutral until now, which is good.
reps)squishy has stirred up some suspicion but that seemed to be unintentional, also I liked his defense.
Nightcat99 is nr. 2 on the suspicious-list. Not many posts but the few ones have a chaotic flavor to them as in trying to confuse people.
StiMaDDict acts generally neutral, seems like town.
Alakaslam's last posts were totally bonkers. No idea what he is up to.
Again, this were just my thoughts about everyone active in this discussion up until now, there are no facts that I can claim to be true or false. "acts generally neutral, seems like town." - being neutral is scummy. If you are town you want to post your reads and generate pro town content and not to look neutral. ##Vote: infii
This seems like a pretty scummy thing to do so early in the game--stir up the game and try to get someone mislynched as fast as possible. The justification for the vote that he has been able to give was weak at best
Not only that, but in that very same post he tried to implicate reps
Here is a defense he offers for his vote...
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2013 03:00 Gotard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:58 Holyflare wrote:
I agree with your Gotard read, he straight out voted for infii mid discussion about other peoples suspicious activities after infii posted some reasonable claims. He is either trying to draw the conversation away from other people who are suspicious (ie. scum move) or he is playing very bad town.
Gotard, I'd like to hear your defence for this action by the way, and I also want to know your suspicions on everyone else to this point. Your posts have been slightly lacking in the evidence basis and your straight up call out on infii raises you to the top of my suspicions list right now.
Look at his 1st post. This is a useless list. Almost everyone is neutral. His argumentation is super weak. Zero quotes. Nothing. If you think someone is scummy put some effort into it. Posting like that is an easy way to fake some contribution which is scumy. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:15 infii wrote:
Then why don't you just lynch everyone e.g. in alphabetical order? Every lynch will give you crucial information, right?
We are awaiting your defense btw. Because it doesn't make much sense to lynch people randomly... Do you really expect that you will be 100% sure that someone is mafia before lynching that person?
It could be valid, but I'm more inclined to think that he just picked a person who he could feasibly pin some blame on and ran with it.
Not only that, he kept with the infinii shtick a long time, which leads me to believe that he was playing to set him up as a possible second lynching target.
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Vatican City State732 Posts
As a note to all parties, I will be offline from now until tomorrow evening again...so ask any last questions about my innocence within the next fifteen minutes or hang on to them for a while.
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 02 2013 12:02 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 12:01 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
As a note to all parties, I will be offline from now until tomorrow evening again...so ask any last questions about my innocence within the next fifteen minutes or hang on to them for a while. That type of post is the kind of thing that makes me want to lynch you. Specifically, that you were around to be innocent/clear innocence compared to discussing with others and trying to figure the game out
I was mostly referrning to the fact that there was a specific question about me within the last page or two. I'm all for figuring it out, as you can see in my above post with regards to gotard, but since questions of my gameplay are ones only I can answer they are important to ask now before I get off for an extended period. I'm glad to help solve the puzzle, but we can all do that as a town. Only I can explain why I said what I did, as I am doing now
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 02 2013 12:05 Umasi wrote:
feel free to elaborate.
Is this directed toward holy or me?
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 02 2013 12:08 Umasi wrote:
It was directed at holyflare, but you can talk too :3
I don't really have a ton more to say other than to direct you towards my posts answering Slam a page ago and my preliminary investigation of gotard. As I state there, I think he is someone who hasn't gotten enough discussion for the way he pressured infinii so early and then kind of fell off as a prescence once it failed to stick.
I agree with umasi though gotard did have some good points, even if he went about it badly. I'd really like to know why stim and slam are so convinced infinii is town. If there is a good reason for it I think that further cements gotard as a suspect.
Really I think thats one of the key pieces we need to begin unraveling...given the neutral posting of infinii and the strange aggression of gotard one of them is almost certain to be scummy...I'm inclined to gotard, but either way theret is just a scummy taint to their exchange imo.
Sorry, this is kind of rambling.
Summary, since it kind of rambled:
Gotard or infinii is scummy
I think its gotard, as I elaborated on above and in previous post
We need to hear more about why slam and stim trust infinii
We then need to discuss and act on one of them. In my opinion it's one of our most solid reads that 1 of those 2 is scummy, we just need to determine which
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 01 2013 08:13 Gotard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:06 DeusXmachina wrote:
We should look for persistent patterns of lurking over multiple days. If we still have heavy lurkers during the latter half of day 2 then we can put a lot of pressure on those individuals. What do guys think about analyzing infrequent posters patterns of posting (say that 5 times fast). Is someone who posts at semi regular intervals but posts infrequently more likely to be scum than someone who posts infrequently but in spurts? I would like to know if this could be a basis for analysis. It sounds like to hazard to me. You can never be sure if someone doesn't have free time, doesn't feel like reading thread/filters or anything else but if you will find something interesting, who knows?
On August 02 2013 16:37 Gotard wrote:RDO's spike is activity after the 1st is super weird. Why did he wait so long to go on me when he could do that way later and instead he decided to lurk hard? It would be way more beneficial for town to accuse me before day ended because It would give us another lynch candidate and there would much more discussion going and voting patter would be more interesting to look at. All he did day one was lurking and sheeping Reps. I think he's trying to cover his sheeping and look more pro town. Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 13:55 Alakaslam wrote:
Gotard seems to have to read a post twice to fully get it accurately. Yeah, Engish isn't my native language and I make a lot of various mistakes 
These two posts smack of inconsistency to me I understand the suspicion over my spike in activity after day 1. I can't deny that it's reasonable to wonder. That being said, the fact that he was calling for leniency for lurker prior and is not trying to leap on me for doing it makes it seem to me that he is looking for an excuse to target one of the weaker players. This is consistent with his earlier outright assault on infii. In both cases, infii and now I had a play (me day 1 lurking, infii that bad post) that was sufficiently suspicious, which he has leapt on...yet he stayed out of the reps case and has been pretty
careful to avoid accusing other players as well...just smells scummy to me.
He and Usami are pretty clearly playing the same game. Just ctrl+f through his posts, he spends all kind of time talking about, defending, and agreeing with Usami. He does have potential to alleviate my suspicions with his post on his thoughts on Usami that is apparently forthcoming. I look forward to good things.
Usami is making a strong case to go after scam, so I doubt both of them are mafia. Obviously stupid to lynch your own. Given my suspicions about Usami and Gotard, that makes me think scam is either neutral or just afk townie.
From infinii--
He voted second on reps, which is pretty early, with no real evidence at hand. After it was clear that reps will get lynched he unvoted reps with the following reasoning:
On August 02 2013 03:44 Umasi wrote:
Show nested quote +
Show nested quote +
That specific line helps a lot.
I want you to scum hunt reps, don't go back on your word here. Just because you're off my personal chopping block (dunno about everyone elses) doesn't mean you can go goof around again. This entire push feels wrong, because the tone of your typing feels like you're legitimately trying, and legitimately confused.
You've been a detriment to town, but if we can work through that, it may turn out better in the end, and I don't want to lynch you anymore.
I'd rather just lynch the scummiest, and you are no longer the scummiest.
I am going out to lunch in fifteen ish minutes, going to reread and decide who to vote on. I don't think reps is our lynch. That said, I do want to see a lynch through though.
##UNVOTE REPS
"I can help win this game much more then RDaneelOlivaw or sc_a.M."
That was reason enough to let his suspicion fall after discussing about him for almost half of day1? Really
Looks even more suspicious in light of this quote from Usami
so voting to no lynch is squandering your vote, and I'll happily switch votes to prevent a no lynch
I think this is really a critical point, we've really let Usami off the hook for this. The reasoning for this is super weak from a champion of always-lynch.
There was a lot of discussion I saw surrounding the fact that reps was ultimately a harm whether or not he was town, which was supported by Usami who said
On August 01 2013 08:49 Umasi wrote:
reps, you ARE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE
you have preformed jack.
there are LOTS of good reasons for voting you.
There's nothing stopping you from ignoring everyone and going and independently building cases on people and posting them, because I think we can all look past the "who posted it" to the "jesus this is scummy as crap"
when you just sit here and whine about people voting you, that's not a compelling reason to switch off.
He IS correct in thinking that you're hurting us if you're not scum. You are hurting town if you are not scum.
(this implies that if you're scum, you're helping town by being an obvious target)
The way to be interpreted as a townie is to be townie, not to be like "why don't people believe me :<<<<" because scum can say EXACTLY what you're saying. Nothing about what you've done actually helps us read you as town, we just have to wifom ourselves into thinking you're town. But if you just look at everything objectively, you're scum.
And yet that one line, that one line about how he could be helpful was enough to sway him.
I think his main goal in this was obviously to start a counterpush away from reps. In that case, reps) would have been a pretty weak player (easy pickings whenever) who likely would believe firmly that Usami is town. Eliminating someone else like infii would have far more beneficial for mafia- given all the discussion on reps anyone else would have been a shot in the dark-, which is why I really think this a scummy move.
Cliffnotes again:
Gotard scum for not being logically consistent with his views on lurking- I acknowledge, not the strongest tell but it builds on the points I illustrated in previous posts- also, he is playing game with Usami
Usami scum- partially because he is playing iwth gotard who i think scummy. Partially because of that switch which was a strong anti-town move (yes, I am changing my position on this--I said earlier that it should be more or less null, but upon further reflection I don't see real benefits for the town in it--its scummy).
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Vatican City State732 Posts
I brought up a contradiction between two of gotards post that indicates further scummy behavior (I was the first to level the finger at him too lol). I didn't add a ton with regards to you other than to highlight that you too are obviously playing a game together since about half of gotard's posts are about you in some way shape or form. If you can explain why he is so pro-Usami, go ahead. Until then, you're partially implicated by association with him
No, there aren't a ton of questions for you to answer from my post. Most of my post with regards to you was focused on building upon infinii's case against you in a couple of areas with quotes, theories, or voicing agreement on it. If you can refute what he says, go ahead. If you have solid reasons that can go a long way to dispelling my doubts about you. Your explanations haven't been convincing as of yet
I still think you haven't reconciled the statement I quoted from you about switching votes and the actual switch, but I don't think you can.
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:10 Umasi wrote:
~I have explained myself for the vote swap, and that's what people hate.
Me and gotard being similarly suspicious of infii isn't weird, people who think that infii was town are weird, because he was scummy (not anymore)
also, if reps were an easy mislynch to push, why would I immediately target deus? Wouldn't it be more logical to keep pushing reps? Because that was early enough it wasn't "concrete" that reps was gonna get lynched.
It's not just similar suspicion. He's defended you repeatedly, and part of his self-stated reasoning for going after infinii was a scum read on you. That, and the fact that you both tag-teamed infinii and then me...could be coincidence of course, but bearrs watching
Yes, you have provided explainations for the vote swap but they were satisfactory to me. I'm not looking to bury you, I want to win this game, and right now that looks suspicious to me. You seem the scummiest to me, which is why I'm throwing these statements out there.
The reps move would be good for you either way. Either he lives and owes his life to you, which gives him a charitable view of you (and you likely off someone who is more of a threat), or he dies and flips town
One of the strangest parts of the move is it is basically suicidal if you are town. If he dies and flips town like he did, ok. But if he flips mafia, you're probably fucked. As town, it wouldn't make sense to take that chance, since you couldn't possibly know from the wild signs he was throwing about. If you're mafia though, and you know his role, the move becomes much more appealing.
If you want to talk more about your vote, thats fine. I think you've already done a lot of defending. Go ahead and respond as you will, this post is more for the benefit of the rest of the town. It's important we carefully evaluate your vote
Again though, I'm not unwilling to listen, which is the impression you seem to have gotten from my prior post. I find things about you fishy. You can't convince me that the vote was not very strange, Ok. Guess what, I find things about alaksam fishy too, but his overall pro-town play means I have a solid town read on him. So at least for me, and my thoughts, I wouldn't be so worried with answering them as playing a strong pro-town game so I can feel more confident in you
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:34 Alakaslam wrote:
Also
H o l y - f l a r e, this just hit me
Scum nk HolyFlare
How likely because he is right?
He had already let slip who he thought was scummy
And then he is nk
Gotard Umasi and nightcat received as much at night
Meh, I question that a little bit...and I've already gone on about Gotard and Usami
Yes, that's one possible interpretation.
Could also be an attempt to completely throw us off the scent by killing someone mostly wrong...I don't know if that's really part of the meta here, but it definitely seems like a solid play if you think you can keep the attention focused away from your team if you are scum. Maybe thats just a newb take on it, but it's my 2 cents.
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:37 DeusXmachina wrote:
One thing that throws me for a loop about Umasi. In my opinion changing his vote on reps last minute is not a scummy thing to do. Why would a scum want to switch their vote on reps and risk taking a no lynch. It was a small victory for them getting reps out of the way, one townie down. Also he has come under a lot of attention because of that vote switch. Again, that does not seem scummy. That is why it is so hard for me to get a good read on Umasi. I still think he is suspicious, and like I said before, I will elaborate on that later tonight.
Slam are you still suspecting RDO for scum? Don't you think his spike in posts is a reaction to pressure? Also, if Umasi is not scum, then RDO could be taking the opportunity to raise suspicion of Umasi.
Slam would you consider scam as more scummy than RDO despite the fact that he is lurking extremely hard and we can't get a good read off of his posts?
That's part of it for sure...I also was busy with work, and this is my first game, so I'm just getting into it.
I still don't think the switch is a smart move for a townie. If reps dies and flips red, he is pretty much boned, no? Why take that chance if you don't have foreknowledge.
I acknowledge that it can be taken different ways. We'll see what Umasi does tonight and if he can win me over
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:42 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 09:37 DeusXmachina wrote:
One thing that throws me for a loop about Umasi. In my opinion changing his vote on reps last minute is not a scummy thing to do. Why would a scum want to switch their vote on reps and risk taking a no lynch. It was a small victory for them getting reps out of the way, one townie down. Also he has come under a lot of attention because of that vote switch. Again, that does not seem scummy. That is why it is so hard for me to get a good read on Umasi. I still think he is suspicious, and like I said before, I will elaborate on that later tonight.
Slam are you still suspecting RDO for scum? Don't you think his spike in posts is a reaction to pressure? Also, if Umasi is not scum, then RDO could be taking the opportunity to raise suspicion of Umasi.
Slam would you consider scam as more scummy than RDO despite the fact that he is lurking extremely hard and we can't get a good read off of his posts? Because I lean town on RDO, yes, but RDO mentioned a work schedule that I don't see him posting outside of.
Huh? I've been posting a fair amount the past couple of nights, all outside of my work schedule? I'm confused tt
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:51 DeusXmachina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 09:46 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I still don't think the switch is a smart move for a townie. If reps dies and flips red, he is pretty much boned, no? Why take that chance if you don't have foreknowledge.
If reps dies and flips red, he is pretty much boned, no? I don't get what you mean. If Umasi was scum there would be no reason to not for reps. Scum knew that reps was not scum before he got lynched right?
He did, which is my point. If reps had still been offed, which was pretty likely at the time, and he were mafia, everything would be on umasi at this point, no? Switching a vote to try to save scum?
There are possible town motivations, true, but that seems like a chance not necessarily worth taking from the point of view of the individual player
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:53 DeusXmachina wrote:
RDO why did you hang back for the first part of day 1? You only started being active when we got close to lynching reps and suspicion was floating your way. Why is that?
I decided to actually play the game. Yeah, I can see where its suspicious from your point of view. Once I actually made a couple posts defending myself and started reading the thread more closely I got hooked in
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On August 03 2013 09:54 Alakaslam wrote:
NO, SHUT UP FOR A SECOND.
Read the quote.
Fair point
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Vatican City State732 Posts
On August 03 2013 09:44 Umasi wrote:
assume we're a scum team together, what would we get out of tag teaming like you said we did? Is there any reason we would build such a strong connection?
(yeah, it's wifom, the thoughts not even occuring to you, and since I brought up you should just ignore it I guess.)
(btw, the town motivation for no lynching instead of mis lynching is the fact that we don't kill a townie.)
I'm not out to get you. Also, not so stupid as you seem to think friend 
I'm new to this game too, I'm not going to play it perfectly. But I'm going to play the damn thing now, not just sit on my hands.
It's a more subtle tag-team, possibly even unintentionally backing up someone who you know to be your teammate (assuming you are mafia, which obviously is still to be decided)
I got a lot of heat for just defending myself, and now I begin to see why. There's a lot coming your way to answer for, so you are busy, but I'd like to see some of your theories come out more too to steer the discussion down other avenues that might benefit the town
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