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getmoript
1016 Posts
On July 21 2013 07:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: GG. I knew Chez was the scum, Oats I had a hunch on, but Koshi I would've never guessed. I even thought he redeemed ghost and avoided looking in that direction. GG Yah, Koshi looked way too dumb to be scum (not intended as a compliment). | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 21 2013 09:02 VayneAuthority wrote: I always feel like what I'm doing makes sense, but it sometimes doesn't play out that way.I thought austin was the scum leader and not Ace....His play threw me off so much this game. Made no sense from a town POV :/ I really found you scummy after looking back over. It happens to me with some people, but the way you barely or didn't explain some of your reads didn't smell good to me. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Chez is still pretty amusing and at least plays the game, albeit in his own strange way. CA's play I have more of a problem with this game and though the onus is on us for not having killed him for it, it's a borderline dick move to constantly make out-of-game excuses for your play and survive that way. ESPECIALLY when as far as I can tell most people (if not everyone) tells the truth when they bring out-of-game reasons into the thread for shit play/afk. | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11584 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11584 Posts
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11584 Posts
On July 21 2013 12:35 WaveofShadow wrote: Koshi played fine imo. Chez is still pretty amusing and at least plays the game, albeit in his own strange way. CA's play I have more of a problem with this game and though the onus is on us for not having killed him for it, it's a borderline dick move to constantly make out-of-game excuses for your play and survive that way. ESPECIALLY when as far as I can tell most people (if not everyone) tells the truth when they bring out-of-game reasons into the thread for shit play/afk. It all was the truth, I am a lot busier than I expected to be when the game started, and then for about 5 days I had no internet and had to use my phone. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
 . FT, I have no idea why I asked MG to nuke jampi. I dunno, I really dont. Good thing town kept him alive way too long. | ||
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getmoript
1016 Posts
On July 21 2013 13:00 Oatsmaster wrote: Koshi played awesome lategame, pretty much sealed with win. Good job . FT, I have no idea why I asked MG to nuke jampi. I dunno, I really dont. Good thing town kept him alive way too long. Are you kidding me? The only reason why Koshi looked like town was because he looked to stupid to be scum. Guess I'll just have to lynch him because I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference between his normal town stupid and his scum stupid. Also, I'm removing the too stupid to be scum as a town tell because him. If anyone can be that stupid normally or fake being that stupid that well then oh well. Yah, MG should've died D3. But no one listened to any logical points on why to lynch him instead of nuking him and why that made Ace scum until a day or 2 later. This is not an example of a game with good scum play. I don't think I've seen a game of good scum play since The Game where Kita and Bugs and BH dominated throughout. Ace played pretty well, but the rest of the scum team rode him like a bitch in heat. Chezinu was Chezinu and he forever will be tunneled, shot, lynched, etc. in every single game from now on until he decides to actually play for real. I hope they lynch his ass in Ver's game. Also, Oats your scum play is going to be pretty easy from now on unless you step it up. This is a prime example of town derping and not having players with a reputation that can push a lynch. Being able to push a lynch here is 90% reputation, 5% luck, 5% thought. That's why Ace was able to get away with the bullshit he did on D3. Maju gets lynched earlier and you guys have far more problems. Closed setup also heavily favored scum especially with 6 scum and a god awful SK. Game would've been fair if town had 1-2 more vets and idk 3-4 less dumbass lurkers. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
couldn't agree more with this. I hope it gets discussed in one of the podcasts at least...the way vets are treated around here is ridiculous. | ||
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getmoript
1016 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:01 getmoript wrote: Are you kidding me? The only reason why Koshi looked like town was because he looked to stupid to be scum. Guess I'll just have to lynch him because I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference between his normal town stupid and his scum stupid. Also, I'm removing the too stupid to be scum as a town tell because him. If anyone can be that stupid normally or fake being that stupid that well then oh well. Yah, MG should've died D3. But no one listened to any logical points on why to lynch him instead of nuking him and why that made Ace scum until a day or 2 later. This is not an example of a game with good scum play. I don't think I've seen a game of good scum play since The Game where Kita and Bugs and BH dominated throughout. Ace played pretty well, but the rest of the scum team rode him like a bitch in heat. Chezinu was Chezinu and he forever will be tunneled, shot, lynched, etc. in every single game from now on until he decides to actually play for real. I hope they lynch his ass in Ver's game. Also, Oats your scum play is going to be pretty easy from now on unless you step it up. This is a prime example of town derping and not having players with a reputation that can push a lynch. Being able to push a lynch here is 90% reputation, 5% luck, 5% thought. That's why Ace was able to get away with the bullshit he did on D3. Maju gets lynched earlier and you guys have far more problems. Closed setup also heavily favored scum especially with 6 scum and a god awful SK. Game would've been fair if town had 1-2 more vets and idk 3-4 less dumbass lurkers. I'm not so sure I agree with you to be honest. First of all, you can't necessarily have a bunch of experienced players in every single game taking up every spot---if you want that kind of a game, host an invite only. Putting up with lurkers and general shit play/newbiness is part of what TL Mafia is about and always has been since I've started. Consider someone like BC who would fully advocate ridding every game of players that fit your descriptions. There are people who agree but it's not exactly an easy task and there are probably multiple levels of shit/weird play that some people find acceptable and others don't. Where do you draw a line? As well, after this game I'm pretty certain you don't need a 'reputation' to push a lynch---I got the Gumshoe lynch through instead of SnB/Austin and I don't think you'd consider me someone with a reputation----you just need to play/convince better. Obviously this game was particularly difficult in that people simply weren't fucking PLAYING the game, but I don't see how it had anything to do with 'vet' vs not. You're a qt and all, but you balance whine a LOT. It's hard out there for a host. I feel like the setup may have been slightly non-town favoured but again, themed. Nukes flyin' every which way and shit. A whole fuckton of blue roles more than there would normally be. Take it in stride, my friend. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:26 getmoript wrote: I hope they also discuss and tell people to GTFO if they intend to lurk. Nothing is any more infuriating to me than when town lurk-a-derps. I think by the end of D1 13 of 27 players had less than a 1 page filter. Onegu is here and trying to post WHILE HE'S FUCKING SICK OFF HIS ASS!!! People can devote enough time to scumhunt and be productive. If this lurking bullshit doesn't stop then we're going to have to have more vigilantes or find a better way to manage it because that in and of itself really imbalances the games. This I can agree with. I think the minimum postcount needs to be raised. Once per cycle + vote is simply not enough to ensure an enjoyable game. (Technically we DID have a shit ton of vigs this game ) | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Koshi was the main proponent of the CA lynch. Without him pushing, someone might have tried to lynch Chez or whatever. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:26 WaveofShadow wrote: First of all, you can't necessarily have a bunch of experienced players in every single game taking up every spot---if you want that kind of a game, host an invite only. Putting up with lurkers and general shit play/newbiness is part of what TL Mafia is about and always has been since I've started. Consider someone like BC who would fully advocate ridding every game of players that fit your descriptions. There are people who agree but it's not exactly an easy task and there are probably multiple levels of shit/weird play that some people find acceptable and others don't. Where do you draw a line? I have never seen this sheer level of lurking in a normal game before. Like ever. I don't have any problem with newbies or less experienced players. Lurking is just unacceptable. I really hope that more games actually become invite only if this level of bullshit continues. As well, after this game I'm pretty certain you don't need a 'reputation' to push a lynch---I got the Gumshoe lynch through instead of SnB/Austin and I don't think you'd consider me someone with a reputation----you just need to play/convince better. Obviously this game was particularly difficult in that people simply weren't fucking PLAYING the game, but I don't see how it had anything to do with 'vet' vs not. Obviously I disagree, but there's an important reason why. The Gumshoe lynch was a really weird situation that I don't think you could reproduce. It was what like D4 so there aren't many players. He was kinda lurking and I thought about Rayn's townread on him from D1 and went fuck it, people don't want to lynch who I want to lynch so I'll throw my hat in with WoS because I know he's town and I don't think I can convince him to lynch otherwise. To get a good lynch early on D1-2 definitely and often D3 as well, you need a someone who can throw their reputation behind the lynch or else it doesn't get moving. You're a qt and all, but you balance whine a LOT. It's hard out there for a host. I feel like the setup may have been slightly non-town favoured but again, themed. Nukes flyin' every which way and shit. A whole fuckton of blue roles more than there would normally be. Take it in stride, my friend. The "experienced" to "newer" player ratio isn't something the host can or should control IMO. I'm a full on believer in random role distribution. My point was that after the early kills town didn't have a "rep" guy who could circle the wagons around a lynch. As for game setup/role balance, I think that the hosts hit the exact numbers and roles right on the money honestly. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:23 s0Lstice wrote: Being able to push a lynch here is 90% reputation, 5% luck, 5% thought. couldn't agree more with this. I hope it gets discussed in one of the podcasts at least...the way vets are treated around here is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure this was discussed in one of the very first podcasts actually. And I'm pretty sure Geript was actually involved in it. It essentially comes down to the fact that 'vets' are vets for a reason, and have a certain way of doing things that in general make people want to follow their directions. They have shown themselves to be quality players time and time again. That doesn't necessarily mean they are perfect or should always be sheeped or are incapable of fucking up or whatever. I dunno I'm pretty sure in the podcast the 'vet' vs 'noob' bias was debunked somewhat. Solstice what specifically are you referring to in this game about vets being treated differently than others? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:31 Oatsmaster wrote: I played absolutely shit and without my role, I wouldve died like day 1/2 Koshi was the main proponent of the CA lynch. Without him pushing, someone might have tried to lynch Chez or whatever. Well you guys killed pretty had good kills and no one listened to me. Koshi would've been your guys end game but you and Chez should've been lynched back to back. I shouldn't have to explain it. I actually feel pretty good about my reads this whole game. I got you wrong early based on your role and Ace wrong early because I trusted Xat instead of Rayn (fml). But when Chez went on that long thing with me and refused to nuke Ace I was 100% sold he was scum. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:35 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm pretty sure this was discussed in one of the very first podcasts actually. And I'm pretty sure Geript was actually involved in it. It essentially comes down to the fact that 'vets' are vets for a reason, and have a certain way of doing things that in general make people want to follow their directions. They have shown themselves to be quality players time and time again. That doesn't necessarily mean they are perfect or should always be sheeped or are incapable of fucking up or whatever. I dunno I'm pretty sure in the podcast the 'vet' vs 'noob' bias was debunked somewhat. Solstice what specifically are you referring to in this game about vets being treated differently than others? Here's a great example. On D3 was it, I made perfectly good explanations for lynching Maju despite the nuke. I explained it in full. Yet people thought I was trying to lynch a nuke despite knowing that there are nuke immune roles in the game AND that Rayn had called Ace scum. Ace used pretty words. I used logic. Who won that argument? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:35 geript wrote: I have never seen this sheer level of lurking in a normal game before. Like ever. I don't have any problem with newbies or less experienced players. Lurking is just unacceptable. I really hope that more games actually become invite only if this level of bullshit continues. I agree with this. Obviously I disagree, but there's an important reason why. The Gumshoe lynch was a really weird situation that I don't think you could reproduce. It was what like D4 so there aren't many players. He was kinda lurking and I thought about Rayn's townread on him from D1 and went fuck it, people don't want to lynch who I want to lynch so I'll throw my hat in with WoS because I know he's town and I don't think I can convince him to lynch otherwise. To get a good lynch early on D1-2 definitely and often D3 as well, you need a someone who can throw their reputation behind the lynch or else it doesn't get moving. This I don't agree with at all. It has less to do in my opinion with who a person is than what they're capable of to get a lynch through. Geript your townplay (aside from that weird shit with jampi/MG) was really solid this game. Part of mafia is proving that you are a person whose word should be followed and convincing people that your word is what makes sense. There are multiple ways of doing so---for example I listen to Prom a lot when he plays because his meta analysis is crazy strong and I find his reads to be very accurate. This isn't because he's a 'vet,' but because he manages to convince me through his cases and how accurate I feel him to be. I find him friendlier and easier to appeal ingame to than someone like marv, for example. I honestly think the inability to convince people is not anyone's fault but he who is trying to do the convincing/trying to push a lynch. The "experienced" to "newer" player ratio isn't something the host can or should control IMO. I'm a full on believer in random role distribution. My point was that after the early kills town didn't have a "rep" guy who could circle the wagons around a lynch. As for game setup/role balance, I think that the hosts hit the exact numbers and roles right on the money honestly. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:40 geript wrote: Here's a great example. On D3 was it, I made perfectly good explanations for lynching Maju despite the nuke. I explained it in full. Yet people thought I was trying to lynch a nuke despite knowing that there are nuke immune roles in the game AND that Rayn had called Ace scum. Ace used pretty words. I used logic. Who won that argument? I can't speak for other people but my reasoning for not listening to you was because I thought you were scum! It didn't have anything to do with Ace specifically at that point, it was my own case against you and your actions which appeared like a scum plan to me. It has absolutely not a thing to do with lack of respect for you or a great deal of respect for Ace. Not listening to Rayn is because I don't find his early game reads particularly accurate much of the time. He can be, but the whole 'listen to dead people' is kind of overrated in my opinion. Dead guys are bound to be right about something or another, but it's not like you have any way of knowing that any more than someone who is alive until you see some flips. You have no idea why mafia killed them. | ||
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