EPT[T] Nuclear Winter Mafia - Page 203
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getmoript
1016 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:35 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm pretty sure this was discussed in one of the very first podcasts actually. And I'm pretty sure Geript was actually involved in it. It essentially comes down to the fact that 'vets' are vets for a reason, and have a certain way of doing things that in general make people want to follow their directions. They have shown themselves to be quality players time and time again. That doesn't necessarily mean they are perfect or should always be sheeped or are incapable of fucking up or whatever. I dunno I'm pretty sure in the podcast the 'vet' vs 'noob' bias was debunked somewhat. Solstice what specifically are you referring to in this game about vets being treated differently than others? there isn't a particular example this game, its an overall feeling from all the games i've read and played in. I get the argument that people listen to vets because they often say shit worth listening to. That doesn't stop it from being frustrating. It often feels like there are two games going on concurrently...one where the vets play with eachother, and one where the rabble does whatever the rabble does. The problem is that it makes a lot of worthwhile shit get entirely overlooked. I think its frustrating for both sides really. It creates a situation where non-vets are readily ignored, and the vets get hounded for stupid shit by all the 'big game hunters.' A good specific example is Basterd actually. Remember what happened on our day 1 lynch there WoS? Town sheeped Marv, who was gone for most of day 1. This is not Marv's fault by any means, but imagine how a non-vet feels in that situation. Why even bother trying if the town, like so many other towns, is going to just end up lynching who vet X tells us to? Another random example is Mad Men, from awhile ago (not sure why that suddenly popped in my head lol). Toadesstern as town played the game by making a list of the vets, declaring that some of the vets had to be scum, and then focused on his list to the exclusion of all else. This kind of shit happens around here, and it's not rare. It is not a problem if the rule is that useful shit gets read, and ignorant stuff gets ignored. The rule around here though is closer to, in my opinion: 'the vets get read, and non-vets don't.' | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
Oh duh what it say in your house. U R SVENGALI | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
I think these things though when I see how slow the newb games fill up and stuff like that. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 14:52 s0Lstice wrote: there isn't a particular example this game, its an overall feeling from all the games i've read and played in. I get the argument that people listen to vets because they often say shit worth listening to. That doesn't stop it from being frustrating. It often feels like there are two games going on concurrently...one where the vets play with eachother, and one where the rabble does whatever the rabble does. The problem is that it makes a lot of worthwhile shit get entirely overlooked. I think its frustrating for both sides really. It creates a situation where non-vets are readily ignored, and the vets get hounded for stupid shit by all the 'big game hunters.' A good specific example is Basterd actually. Remember what happened on our day 1 lynch there WoS? Town sheeped Marv, who was gone for most of day 1. This is not Marv's fault by any means, but imagine how a non-vet feels in that situation. Why even bother trying if the town, like so many other towns, is going to just end up lynching who vet X tells us to? Another random example is Mad Men, from awhile ago (not sure why that suddenly popped in my head lol). Toadesstern as town played the game by making a list of the vets, declaring that some of the vets had to be scum, and then focused on his list to the exclusion of all else. This kind of shit happens around here, and it's not rare. It is not a problem if the rule is that useful shit gets get read, and ignorant stuff gets ignored. The rule around here though is closer to, in my opinion: 'the vets get read, and non-vets don't.' Again, I can't speak much for other people's thought processes, but people honestly should have known that D1 lynch on Vayne in Basterd was fucking terrible. If people were listening to Marv because he's Marv on that then that's their own fault. Why should a non-vet bother trying? Do you think the current 'vets' earned their 'status' through lack of trying? No, they consistently perform in games. If the people who are complaining were/are capable of doing the same thing then it wouldn't BE an issue. Talking about it not being a problem if useful shit gets read and ignorant stuff gets ignored---Ace talked about this specifically, as did Artanis in the Obs QT. The whole problem was there WAS way too much ignorant shit going on in the thread. It's not a coincidence that 'vets' get listened to while others go ignored a lot of the time---it's because they will often be the ones who are talking about the useful shit. That's not a hard and fast rule; I've seen plenty of stupid shit from vets and smart stuff from relative unknowns, but if people aren't willing to look within the thread itself and see how people are acting and what they're talking about and instead base all of their decisions on a visible 'vet' minority then that's their problem. I don't feel I do this and since you seem to be so against it, you probably don't either. How many people in this game actively did it? Another thing to think about was how much of this huge thread was productive discussion? I'd say MAYBE 1/4. Is that a result of lack of veterans to herd the town? I don't believe so but I think it's tough to say either way. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 21 2013 15:00 WaveofShadow wrote: Another thing to think about was how much of this huge thread was productive discussion? I'd say MAYBE 1/4. Is that a result of lack of veterans to herd the town? I don't believe so but I think it's tough to say either way. Honestly, I think that a large majority of the thread was productive. But I'm a player who very much prefers spam to anything else... <3 u Mocsta. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1833 Posts
On July 21 2013 15:00 WaveofShadow wrote: Again, I can't speak much for other people's thought processes, but people honestly should have known that D1 lynch on Vayne in Basterd was fucking terrible. If people were listening to Marv because he's Marv on that then that's their own fault. Why should a non-vet bother trying? Do you think the current 'vets' earned their 'status' through lack of trying? No, they consistently perform in games. If the people who are complaining were/are capable of doing the same thing then it wouldn't BE an issue. Talking about it not being a problem if useful shit gets read and ignorant stuff gets ignored---Ace talked about this specifically, as did Artanis in the Obs QT. The whole problem was there WAS way too much ignorant shit going on in the thread. It's not a coincidence that 'vets' get listened to while others go ignored a lot of the time---it's because they will often be the ones who are talking about the useful shit. That's not a hard and fast rule; I've seen plenty of stupid shit from vets and smart stuff from relative unknowns, but if people aren't willing to look within the thread itself and see how people are acting and what they're talking about and instead base all of their decisions on a visible 'vet' minority then that's their problem. I don't feel I do this and since you seem to be so against it, you probably don't either. How many people in this game actively did it? Another thing to think about was how much of this huge thread was productive discussion? I'd say MAYBE 1/4. Is that a result of lack of veterans to herd the town? I don't believe so but I think it's tough to say either way. To the first paragraph-- I'm not debating about whether people SHOULD try or not try, but what they will most likely do. A person could play a bunch of games, get ignored in a bunch, and then finally be recognized through perseverance and plain stubbornness....but is this what is likely to happen? I think the greater danger is that the player says fuck it and boots up dota and we never see them again. This person could have been a valuable addition to our lil subforum, but was discouraged by the service that is payed to vets around here. to the second-- the behavior perpetuates itself. people only listen to vets-->non-vets get discouraged from trying-->thread gets full of shitty posts-->people listen to vets. I have no fucking clue how to solve this, btw. We could sit here and name examples all day. I'm trying to make more broad strokes, and this post-game probably isn't the place for it, so this will be it from me. Put simply, I've imagined myself in a newbies shoes, and I don't envy the experience atm. Graduate from newbies, get into normals and get at best ignored, and at worst insulted. I just don't feel it's totally true that good play is rewarded around here, regardless of it's source. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
ETA: Also from now on, now you know one of the reasons I try not to post too many reads. I've been saying for years people sheep vets even though we can be wrong. Read some games where one popular guy says "I think X is obvious Town" and watch him/her get treated as confirmed Town by most of the players. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 21 2013 15:29 Ace wrote: 100% agreed on the "vet" status bullshit. Too much of the game is played based on reputation (or meta) and not enough of in-game behavior. I think someone like say Stutters is generally overlooked even though he can be a valuable townie. All because he doesn't (afaik) have a huge reputation. ETA: Also from now on, now you know one of the reasons I try not to post too many reads. I've been saying for years people sheep vets even though we can be wrong. Read some games where one popular guy says "I think X is obvious Town" and watch him/her get treated as confirmed Town by most of the players. I'm torn on this because I have experienced both sides. My first few games I essentially went largely ignored much of the time. Geript knows this. Is it because I played in big normals with a lot of vets or because what I posted wasn't worth reading? Probably some combination of both to be honest. The mindset of vets v non-vets is something that took me a a few games to drop as I eventually developed the confidence to perform on equal footing to those who may have intimidated me or shouted me down previously (equal skill is another thing entirely but irrelevant to what I'm saying right now. I think I still kinda suck). The same cannot necessarily be said for everyone apparently as there are still a lot of people who actively see this divide and are either held back by it or perceive their own lack of performance to be due to such. Again, difficult to tell which it truly is as I have experienced both, and I feel it is somewhat circumstantial. Ace raises a few good points in that the game does need to be played more within the context of that specific game itself and let people prove themselves from game to game; but as we are a community and play many games with each other constantly, this becomes exceedingly difficult. Are there rules that can be set up to combat newbies entering normals and feeling beaten down by players who all know each other? Can we force meta to go ignored in any kind of game other than all-smurf types? I don't believe so. It all comes down to individual attitude and how we play ourselves. Just like SC2/LoL/DotA 2/etc have metas, TL Mafia has a meta, and the meta has relied on meta for too long. I'm personally fairly confident that I have learned not to necessarily consider a veteran's opinion more valid than someone else's, and I could probably learn to rely on other player's past games less. Others may have to do the same, but as far as newer players being beaten down or ignored is concerned, I believe the onus still falls on the players who want to be listened to. I think the current crop of newbies are going to blow a lot of people away to be honest once they start playing, and that will show that individual skill, effort, and confidence are what is required for people to listen to you in mafia. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
There are some 'vet' players I have seen, whether self-proclaimed or status given by others, who do a lot to perpetuate the issue by acting in certain ways in games. I'm not entirely sure how that kind of behaviour can be curbed exactly if it is found to be a contributing factor to the perceived 'vet' problems within the forum. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
HOW THE FUCK IN A GAME WHERE EVERYONE HAS A ROLE EXCEPT 3 PEOPLE DO I ROLL VT AGAIN WTFBBQ feel like im VT every game | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On July 21 2013 16:15 VayneAuthority wrote: the real problem is... HOW THE FUCK IN A GAME WHERE EVERYONE HAS A ROLE EXCEPT 3 PEOPLE DO I ROLL VT AGAIN WTFBBQ feel like im VT every game VayneAu T h o r i t y Best way I came up with, anyone fix? | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
You got to understand that I am really new to this game and that using that to my advantage is not so stupid like you aggressively keep repeating. Are you kidding me? The only reason why Koshi looked like town was because he looked to stupid to be scum. Guess I'll just have to lynch him because I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference between his normal town stupid and his scum stupid. Also, I'm removing the too stupid to be scum as a town tell because him. If anyone can be that stupid normally or fake being that stupid that well then oh well. You are a douchebag. I am really upset after reading this. wtf m8? I tried my best in TL+ as town, first game ever. I tried my best in the Newbie Mini Mafia XLIV and died first night. This is the third game that has finished and I was scum so I had to pretend to be less knowing that I was... Where is all the hate coming from? | ||
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On July 21 2013 23:39 Koshi wrote: getmoript. I played how I felt I had to play to win as scum. I worked pretty well because even though I posted quite a lot in this thread, nobody pressured me. My role was hidden till the very end. You got to understand that I am really new to this game and that using that to my advantage is not so stupid like you aggressively keep repeating. You are a douchebag. I am really upset after reading this. wtf m8? I tried my best in TL+ as town, first game ever. I tried my best in the Newbie Mini Mafia XLIV and died first night. This is the third game that has finished and I was scum so I had to pretend to be less knowing that I was... Where is all the hate coming from? Nah man you played good dont let some random who didnt even play get you down, look forward to playing with you again | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
 Last game (PTP) he was scum and complained about the balance all game. Now he was town and keeps complaining again (lurkers, stupidity, whatever). Sometimes you have to take a step back and focus on improving your OWN play rather than external factors you can't control (balance, other players). That's the way to improve, geript.And Koshi, I strongly disagree that your play was bad. Of course you can't be a mega-ultimate-veteran as a beginner, but you have to use everything at your possession to win the current game, and you did that well (using your inexperience as an advantage is fine IMO - I've done it too as scum). Every player can't be a highly experienced and strongly analytical Mafia machine. There are many uses for players with different strengths - maybe you weren't the most analytical / sensible player, but you appeared quite townish even as scum, AND you sort of started leading the discussion later on (two main scum objectives achieved: survival and pushing Mafia agenda). | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On July 22 2013 00:58 Koshi wrote: Thx guys. I am planning to not use the inexperienced card anymore from now on, even though I am a newbie. Let's see where it brings us. I agree to an extend it is a lame way to play the game. Well here's the thing: if you tried to pull the inexperience card now, based on your performance this game you'd probably be lynched. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On July 22 2013 01:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Well here's the thing: if you tried to pull the inexperience card now, based on your performance this game you'd probably be lynched. Haha true... | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On July 21 2013 23:39 Koshi wrote: getmoript. I played how I felt I had to play to win as scum. I worked pretty well because even though I posted quite a lot in this thread, nobody pressured me. My role was hidden till the very end. You got to understand that I am really new to this game and that using that to my advantage is not so stupid like you aggressively keep repeating. You are a douchebag. I am really upset after reading this. wtf m8? I tried my best in TL+ as town, first game ever. I tried my best in the Newbie Mini Mafia XLIV and died first night. This is the third game that has finished and I was scum so I had to pretend to be less knowing that I was... Where is all the hate coming from? First off, I'd like to apologize... again. What I said was over the line. I was upset about losing (I really, really, really hate losing). For your early attempt, you played fine. You did what you had to do to not get lynched (and honestly I didn't read anything after I got NKd). Honestly though, like this game will really hurt you because you'll have to not look like dumb/crazy newbie to not get lynched from now on (and if you take into account my experiences, this is exceptionally tough). Plus, if you want to see god awful town play, then you should read LX or PYP4 and my filters will give you about anything you'd want to see. Really, the problem was that we had so many lurkers your "dumb newbie" look made you look more towny than most and you were unlynchable towards the end (in comparison). But don't expect anyone to give you a free pass on this in the future. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If someone is active, making sense, figuring the game out, making good points, etc, then I'll listen to him more than someone who doesn't, no matter whether he's a vet or not. I mainly use "vet" status to see if I can get THEM lynched or not  Although yeah I take the "activity" part seriously as town. If someone is not active, then, not only I can't really conclude if he's actually town (although depending on his play I could), but I also can't really know if he has actually read the thread, noticed every mayor/minor event, processed all of it and has an up-to-date solid opinion, etc. Mostly because if I don't see that opinion of his forming and changing right in front of my eyes (and see how that opinion holds with interactions with that player and others, etc), I don't generally trust it too much, and I can't really be convinced by it either (if it lacks a thorough explanation for instance, which he would do if he was active). | ||
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