Sorry for my absence! Illness, work and general life stress took me very far out of the internet again and my annoying habit of disappearing without warning is hard to kick. Everything is fine now, enough for at least one or two mafia games
[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
DoctorHelvetica
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Sorry for my absence! Illness, work and general life stress took me very far out of the internet again and my annoying habit of disappearing without warning is hard to kick. Everything is fine now, enough for at least one or two mafia games | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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What are we looking for? Odd player choices. PMs are our chance to put direct pressure on people we have suspicions of without going over our post limits. If someone is trying to influence your opinions/manipulate you via PM you need to call them out in thread. If someone uses PMs to buddy to you by telling you they have complete trust that you are town, that's a red alarm. I don't see why town needs to have a PM line with another townie like that. I think discussing the PM dynamics and any plans/thoughts regarding it is a good starting off point for this game. ALSO - Look out for those who waste their post limits on empty posts/spam then make an excuse later. For example - "I had some good points to make yesterday but I went over post limit before I wrote my case and....." | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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I disagree, at least I'm getting the ball rolling. The post limit and pm system are unique about this game, its a better way of digging at people's attitudes than random ads lurker votes. | ||
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What do I have to gain by talking to a strong town read? If I need to make town sheep me, the best way to do that is by making constructive posts, right? The post limit makes it difficult for me to tunnel which is a huge part of how I scumhunt. Hapahauli's idea is good actually, for very meta familiar players. But what exactly is towns motivation to buddy? We should go out of our way to separate our play from scumtactics and buddying/clawing for towncred is an enormous part of scum behavior. | ||
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But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. | ||
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On July 16 2013 14:01 VayneAuthority wrote: Don't get me wrong, if for some strange fucking reason you want to mason me then go ahead and I will talk to you. I won't be using either of mine though. Could you direct me to a good town game of yours btw? never played with you so I want to see how you play Insane Mafia, TL Mafia LX, Salem Mafia. All games where I played well in the beginning but my play tends to taper out in a big way near the end of games. @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. | ||
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VayneAuthority - people are going to form mason circles in this game. Announcing your withdrawal to me only makes sense as a scum play. If you're town - you need to change your mind. If you are town and refuse to mason all you are doing is intentionally withholding information from yourself and potentially, the thread. This is bad. Regardless of whether or not you disagree/dislike mason as a MECHANIC, it is a primary mechanic in this game. Ideally, there are only two good reasons to avoid it: 1. You are a blue petrified of being fished/discovered. I find this very unlikely, blues tend to use PMs with townreads while laying low in the thread so they can push their night results or form town circles. Also, your play style seems aggressive and direct - you don't seem timid in thread as is typical of a blue role so I don't see this being the case. 2. You are a red who wants to avoid pressure/slips as much as possible, in the thread you have a lot more control. I don't necessarily like the idea of discussion happening that I'm not aware of but as a town player it doesn't scare me and I won't refuse to take advantage of it. Scum wants as much control and editing power over their thread presence as possible and to avoid pressure/direct contact as much as they can. You seem unusually confident in your pressure for Day 1 and you're already asking for meta reads, everything about that seems off to me. @FirmTofu - I think your defense seems very legitimate and natural, you're off my scumdar. However, it's not that you drew attention to the existence of the traitor, just the fact that it seemed to be at the top of your mind is off. Which is why I wanted you to clarify how you approach mafia in general, it makes perfect sense that the numerically/setup minded type of townies would be fixated on that from the beginning. An LSB/sandro type of player are the kinds of people who I wouldn't raise an eyebrow at for talking traitor, so thanks for that. @Oatsmaster - I see how that seems waffly, but I'm talking about two different things in bold. Actually three. Let me categorize them: Suspicious: 1. Posts that seem to be overly edited to seem really pro-town while doing nothing to find scum (this is way less suspicious int he first hour of Day 1 than any other time in the game. On Day 3 I might instantly vote someone for a post like that) 2. Early fixation on ideas that scum are more likely to be worried/thinking about than town. Not suspicious: 3. The idea that he is giving the traitor "advice". Any discussion about the traitor in thread (basically inevitable) is going to turn around to the ideal way to play the role, since arguments/discussions are usually framed around that idea. When people are accused of being scum cases revolve around our ideas of ideal town/scum play, as far as I am concerned this does not count in any way as passive advice and isn't really much of a point at all. and IDK hapa's meta. But I'm gonna cool it so I don't go over my post limit, I'll be more constructive later in the day with more information. For now: ##Vote: VayneAuthority I recommend masoning with me because it'll help me control my spam tendencies. If you're town we'll have a productive discussion. If you're not, I'll figure you out quickly. Win/Win. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On July 16 2013 14:27 VayneAuthority wrote: There is barely anything to go off of yet so I am pretty sure you just fell into an Oatsmaster trap. If you really do plan to pursue me then I would like to see some reasoning for future use. "Day 1 is a crapshoot so let's not talk about scumreads" you're acting very aggressively in this game so that seems like an odd thing to imply | ||
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I didn't read his post. | ||
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slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. | ||
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On July 17 2013 06:00 layabout wrote: screw it I Shall go to the I am wondering why drh says we should share who we pm. Why does the thread need to know who you are talking to? I can only see how it helps mafia, for instance it lets them find and break any sort of town circle. If you typically live a long time in games it's worth holding onto a pm for later in the game. I think we all more or less know how to use pms but only share it with the thread if there is a clear benefit to do so- e.g. sharing a players unvoiced reads after they have died. This is not actually the case, right?It says everyone has 2 pms in the OP. I really want to kill vayne. Why sign up to a pm game if you are not going to use them? They benefit town the vast majority of the time. I made a mistake in not realizing he had said he would do that pre-game. As much as I hate it, it's not alignment indicative. The fact that you're regurgitating my old argument when the thread has moved wayyyyyyyyy past that is odd. I am wondering why drh says we should share who we pm. Why does the thread need to know who you are talking to? I can only see how it helps mafia, for instance it lets them find and break any sort of town circle. Personally, I want mafia PMing me, it only makes my job easier. The more interaction I have with scum the more likely I am to find them. @Koshi - Pardoner is a 100% anti-town role that should never ever be used. This is generally agreed to be the case. Typically, any time a pardoner uses his power for any reason he is lynched. @Hapa Why would he have any reason not to believe oats? I never came into the thread to tell him Oats was lying. After I backed off from FT I PM'd oatsmaster telling him I was almost completely certain that FT is scum but was biding my time for post limit reasons. Do you want him to waste a mason on me so he can just ask if I really called FT scum? The fact that Rayn is willing to post the logs like that seems very town to me or at least is evidence that he and oats aren't on the same team. It's ridiculous that you think that is suspicious, you're throwing out the weakest pressure I've ever seen but what is it even amounting to, do you want us to lynch Rayne? I'm about 90% sure he is town, my only other extremely strong townread is Gumshoe. | ||
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On July 17 2013 07:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: rofl, fu scum. I am now confirmed town. I am (was) in PM contact with Oats. gumshoe chose to mason me. Logs will be provided no later than N1. Both of gumshoe and Oats are town for sure, so is DrH. Possibly. I wouldn't rule out a mafia masonblocker cutting off someone they are in contact with if they plan to kill that person N1 or something like that. It's hard to say what it could mean in a closed setup, I don't want to make assumptions. I was very sure Oatsmaster is mafia up until now though. | ||
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From his PM's with me, he's acting completely trusting of my alignment as town and even asking me for a lot of advice on his own reads/sheeping my opinions.Why would it then be suspicious for yamato77 to have the same read as him? But when he tells me he finds yamato suspicious he says this: So yamato's post. I dont like it. He starts off with the random shit about PMs for like no reason. I dunno why he used 1 paragraph when he couldve used 1 line. Then he says votes are important but analyses VE's post for content and meta rather than the vote. I dunno, he seems too sure that you are town. And yamato doesnt actually talk about the other shit like Vayne or FT, just hopping onto VE. It doesnt sit right with me. Thoughts? Sounds to me like he's looking for bait to make a case on yamato but his reasons are inconsistent between his conversations with me and his conversations with you. This reads to me not as a townie sharing his genuine opinions without fear, but attempts to buddy/gain cred. He has also been significantly more opinionated and confident in his PMs with me than he has in the thread. Oatsmaster can respond to this - if his explanation isn't adequate then I'll be posting a full case. If he ignores it I'm bandwagoning him. Right now I'm leaning: SNB Oatsmaster layabout baddie lurker 1 baddie lurker 2 ???? | ||
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Chain of events: I pressure FirmTofu originally for his traitor talk and his defense/explanation was adequately town. I announce this to the town. After announcing it, FirmTofu attacks me for pressuring Vayne without also pressuring sloOsh. I explain why I didn't feel what sloOsh did was particularly scummy (I use the language "it's more townie than what you've been doing") he then claims that I have a strong town read on sloOsh. At this point I dropped the argument. People are going pretty far back in my conversations with FT, I'm scared of hitting post limit so it's kind of hard to keep the thread informed of my train of thought. My mind moves quickly but I can't really show that in the thread. Yamato/Oatsmaster (my current masonbuddies) would have to vouch for what I'm thinking since they have more immediate access. If I'm going to become a central part of the lynch discussion, people should at least mason me more. Ah, can someone please give me 5 posts? This is going to be really hard for me. It was your post against sloOsh I think (?) that ultimately made me flip back into thinking you were scum. I talked to Oatsmaster about this: DrH: FirmTofu is in a position where he has a direct argument opportunity with me but wants to misdirect attention onto lurkers instead that's bad if he doesn't respond to what I said about sloOsh because somehow kushm4sta is more interesting then I'm absolutely voting for him. You DID respond to what I said about sloOsh, actually quite shortly after I told Oatsmaster how I feel (and he probed me to figure out what I meant first). Oatsmaster says: Explain the Direct argument opportunity, im not seeing that. DrH says: I called him out for misrepresenting sloOsh as a means to attack me AND defend Vayne and in the next post he ignores that and instead talks about lurkers. I think a townies reaction to my post would be defensive or at least expository but he doesn't argue with me OR explain what he was thinking, he just changes the subject. Oatsmaster says: Ok i agree about the firm tofu thing. like posting for the sake of posting and as scum, its hard to have a conversation with someone. DrH says: read his defense he said i have a STRONG townread on sloosh which is not what i said, i was only pointing out how he misrepresented what sloosh was saying. saying that something is non-scummy from a player is not laying out a strong townread. he's panicking. secondly, the fact that he misrepresented sloosh so brashly, it wasn't a misunderstanding he said that sloosh was making a strong effort to stop people from PMing which is ridiculous because in sloOsh's post he's actually encouraging people to PM, just encouraging people to do it in the way he feels is constructive Oatsmaster says: I do think that FT might be scum for the lying bit, no one in mafia intentionally lies and its a good way to get pressure on a townie that is a bit careless. Its a really agressive post by FT that is blatantly incorrect. Is it townie incorrect or scum being bad. I dunno man. I also wanted to call attention to a similar bit of exaggeration by FirmTofu which was calling sloOsh's advice a "consolidated effort" to STOP pming. That's a huge stretch. Ultimately people are going to do what they want to do, but I feel like sloOsh is saying "don't just waste your mason power if you don't know what you're doing". PMs can be a bit risky, so I can actually see where he is coming from even if I disagree in theory? It's hardly a consolidated effort and I hardly ever said I have a strong townread on him either. In fact, I don't have any read on sloOsh cause I haven't been focused on him this game. He hasn't jumped out and grabbed my attention. I actually see DrH's backing off as more of a scum move than a town one. Scum would be trying not to cause too much waves. They push people to appear townie, then back off if the pressure mounts to a considerable degree and they know they have no chance of winning a lynch on their target. What pressure? I got Oats to agree with me in like five seconds. Here's what happened: I think this guy is probably scum but I'm going to back away from the thread to avoid hitting post limit, see what happens the rest of the day and if he continues to be the scummiest in the thread then I'll push him. Because I was just avoiding post limit, I was sharing my thoughts with Oats who then shared them with Rayne who then posted them in the thread which then led people to think that I'm somehow a liar/wishy washy when in reality this is just a game where I can't afford to pop in and talk literally every time a thought crosses my brain. 20 posts a day. DESPITE THIS - I think it's interesting that you chose to attack me after I defended you and the way you did is making me lean that you are town and this is just a bad misunderstanding, actually. Or I did. But your phrasing is odd in your latest post. It makes it seem like the fact that I backed off AT ALL is scummy to you. Why? Should you always tunnel the first person you vote for 100% of the time? Should you ignore a persons defense under every circumstance? If FT Is town, he knows he is town and he perceives his posts likely to be very townie. If FT defends himself from Player X who then says "ah, the way you defended yourself indicates you're town" why would FT then turn around to say "How suspicious that you think I'm town, you must be scum". If FT truly was town, wouldn't he accept that argument? If Player X (Me in this case) decides his defense is town-indicative (assuming FT is town) then player x is CORRECT and FT should feel as though his argument/defense was a success. Implying that it is scummy to defend you implies INHERENT GUILT. Let me reference my argument against Promethelax in LX which was almost proof that he was scum: Attacking his defender is basically impossible logic for town. If prom was town then jj would have been correct, there would be nothing to criticize. If FT is town then I was CORRECT to back off of him considering he put in the effort to defend himself, there can't possibly be anything scummy about that INHERENTLY but in his latest post he's not even referencing the context of my change of heart he's calling it scummy IN and OF itself. ^ a more succinct way of putting it. I'll wait for FT's explanation of this, because there is another aspect to his attack on me that differs from what Promethelax did although it's getting closer and closer to Prom's confirmed scum arguments so I'll just have to wait. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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sooooooo and FT responding to my post immediately after I explain to Oatsmaster why it's suspicious, like 5 minutes or so. conspiracy theory, but hey. someone donate me 5 posts | ||
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^ Filter from Nuclear Winter where FirmTofu is town. Let me demonstrate marked differences. On July 08 2013 04:54 FirmTofu wrote: Alright, I've got plenty of time now and I've finally got my computer back. I have skimmed through the thread and I'd just like to point out a few things before posting my mega post(tm). Two main people have been targeted as lynches today. Johnnywup and rayn both look like easy scum redirects. In other words, relatively weak town members that would be easy to lynch if push comes to shove. I think you should be watching any and all players on those respective wagons and see how their votes change over the course of the thread. I'm having trouble understanding this Chezinu guy. Apparently, he's a troll? I'm unfamiliar with his persona so could anyone explain? I've still gotta read his claim in detail so I'll post more about that later. In Nuclear Winter FirmTofu is immediately concerned with reads on players and is working on something constructive. His megapost is also completely concerned with reads: On July 08 2013 16:40 FirmTofu wrote: Sorry I took so long. I got burned out from reading the thread and having to update my reads based on incoming information so I took a long break from the thread. I've completed nearly all my player profiles and am ready to give geript my top three scumreads. VayneAuthority: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=17#329 Unjustified reason to vote someone. It could be a poke, but it remains unclear. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=25#495 Advocates lynching for information. Acknowledges that he could flip town. A town would push their lynch under the assumption that they were scum. Starting to focus on what will happen post-flip indicating that he doesn't want to take the heat on a town flip. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=28#554 Highlighting play that strikes him as PR. Why would town do this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=29#568 Accuses Caucasian, who seems like an easy target considering he only has one post and was drunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=34#669 Adds Dandel to the list of lynch targets. WaveOfShadow: His fluff extends a bit too far into the day. Most of his posts are non-contributing/restating what has already been said. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=19#375 Refers to "town players" as an entity that he is not a part of. Very scummy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=20#383 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=20#392 Voices his opinion of Johnny based on a misinterpretation of his post, then waits for someone else to vote him before hopping on the wagon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=24#464 Defensive post. Why is he so worried about a wagon on him if the people voting him have a bad case against him? He should be pursuing his reads, not wasting time defending himself from a "weak" wagon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=25#482 Seems to understand scum methodology and could be trying to WIFOM us with his play. I haven't read many of his newer posts, so I will update my read of him as I continue reading. Nirvana.Gabo: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=29#566 Idiotic reason to vote Onegu. Looking for reasons to vote, instead of looking for actual scumslips. Could be a scumbuddy defense of a teammate in Chez. We will need to see the flip to know for sure. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=29#576 Mistaking newbieness for scum play. Seems to be a deliberate ploy to accuse Onegu of something that isn't there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049¤tpage=31#619 Has a town read on Ace. Convenient. Reiterating what many others have already stated. I would like to pursue either a Vayne or Nirvana lynch, but would be willing to defer to a lynch of WoS. First, I need to read further into the thread to see whether he has redeemed himself or not. For now, Vote ##: VayneAuthority He breaks down his arguments unemotionally and the argument is composed almost entirely of quotes/support. Let's contrast this with his play in this game: On July 16 2013 13:05 FirmTofu wrote: FirmTofu's MegaKickstarting Post: Hey y'all! I know I've been waiting for this game for a long time and I'm sure you all have as well. This game is somewhat non-standard, so there are a few things I'd like to address before we get started. Because this setup is closed, we have to make sure we do not make any unnecessary assumptions that center around speculation about the roles. Speculation is largely a waste of time given the amount of information provided in the OP, so we should stick to the basics. Additionally, we definitely should not be directing blue roles that we aren't even sure exist. Big Plays: If you think of some mastermind play that you think will fool mafia and confuse them, please don't use it. As brilliant as your plan may be, a closed setup has too many variables to account for and your plan could potentially confuse the town more than the mafia. Lying: If you are town, DO NOT lie. If all of town follows this rule, we can separate town and mafia into two distinct categories, liars and non-liars, respectively. We can lynch liars without fear of them flipping town AS LONG AS every town member strictly adheres to this rule. The Traitor: 5 mafia, 1 traitor. Anyone up for some math? 5/24=0.20833333333 (5+1)/24=0.25 The one traitor adds about 4% to the strength of the team. As the game progresses, the denominator gets lower. Assuming we don't get insanely lucky, the percentage of mafia will increase over time. The influence of the traitor will start to compound and he will become a greater threat. We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. How to catch the traitor! The traitor might get antsy and try to drop a few hints for mafia to pick up (to try and join them). We need to stay vigilant to find these subtle hints and make sure we call them out as soon as we see them. PMs: I'm thinking that we should choose our best town reads as PM targets. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this mechanic, so if a more experienced player can give his thoughts about it, that would be great. This goes without saying, but remember to choose your pm targets wisely! This means NOT wasting both of your choices on Day 1 based on weak reads. Post Count Limit: We have a moderately strict 20 post limit during day. This means absolutely NO one-liner posts. Try to make longer posts that include multiple quotes. Respond to multiple points simultaneously. If you want to give your reads, do it all in one post. We need people to also save posts to ensure they can respond to accusations should they be accused. Plan ahead. Most of this stuff should be obvious, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Alright, that's all I've got for now. Let's have a good, clean game. GL HF! MegaPost - all fluff - no substance. The attitude is different, he's very flowery and fluffy whereas in Nuclear Winter he more or less gets to the point in every post. Firm Tofu's longest posts in this game so far have been defenses of himself. In Nuclear Winter he addresses other issues/questions towards him quickly and shortly and uses his longest posts devoted almost entirely to his cases against scumreads. This is actually really good town play. On July 16 2013 14:15 FirmTofu wrote: I forgot to finish answering DrH. I'm a bit of a statistics buff, so in a way, yes. I don't see why drawing attention to the role would make me mafia/traitor. If anything, scum would be trying to draw attention away from these types of roles. You make a valid point, but there is a flaw in this reasoning. As I mentioned in my response to DrH, scum would be trying to avoid drawing attention to their own roles. There is a guilt factor that many scum fall victim to. People who are uncomfortable with lying try to avoid any discussion that could potentially link them to their role. This is my why scum generally try to avoid talking to their teammates in thread and generally avoid talking about their roles. I'm hoping we can move away from this speculative discussion and pursue something more meaningful and concrete. The amount of words he uses to clear up suspicion regarding HIMSELF versus the amount of words in Nuclear Winter is distressing. In Nuclear Winter he is almost completely unconcerned with everything but moving on to a scum lynch. When he is asked a question he gets tot he point as quickly as possible or seemingly ignores it to focus on his lynch. In his case against me here: On July 17 2013 07:52 FirmTofu wrote: I'm going to address a few posts that were made after my departure from the thread yesterday. As much as I dislike DrH, this post has absolutely no substance or reasoning. VE needs to explain his reads or he is as scummy as DrH, if not more scummy. This is ridiculous. Why is yamato's last post horrible? I thought it was well reasoned and particularly useful in forming a read on DrH. Explain yourself. I don't think you understood the purpose of my post. I wasn't defending Vanye. I wasn't "slamming" DrH. You are exaggerating my actions and making it sound as if I have DrH pegged as a confirmed scum read and am tunneling him at the time of writing that post. Please explain what it is that I am doing that DrH is also doing. I am pointing out inconsistencies in his behavior and he is defending slOosh and attacking Vayne. Our actions are not even remotely similar. Vayne and slOosh are saying very similar things but there is a subtle difference between their statements. Vayne is making a personal decision not to use PMs and slOosh is directing inexperienced players not to use PMs. While you may think Vayne's play is inferior, you cannot say he is intentionally playing badly. He could just as easily be town and think that PMs will screw up town more than help. That is a perfectly valid opinion for a town member to have. You may agree with slOosh and disagree with Vayne, but your agreement/disagreement tells you absolutely nothing about their alignment. Analyzing opinions is meaningless and that is exactly what you are doing. rayn, can you please elaborate on what a pardoner is? I have no idea because I have never played with that role before. Another person who just pops in, votes with little to no justification, and leaves. This is getting tiresome. You have not explained why anyone you listed is scum for you. You mentioned that, "FT's post is total bullshit", but that's about it. You even said that you agreed with slOosh's point about pms. How can you justify that scumteam considering I've had a row with slOosh already? It looks like you are just trying to accuse random people to establish some town cred. Some of your questions are hypocritical. You haven't really started playing the game and you waste plenty of posts being useless as well. slOosh responded well to my question and I no longer wish to pursue him. He seems to speaking from opinion and his statements are not alignment indicative. I actually see DrH's backing off as more of a scum move than a town one. Scum would be trying not to cause too much waves. They push people to appear townie, then back off if the pressure mounts to a considerable degree and they know they have no chance of winning a lynch on their target. I think this is exactly how DrH is playing the game right now. After having a bit of an argument with me, he decided that it would be difficult to get town to lynch me, so he backed off. Remember, in his pms to Oats he said "FirmTofu is confirmed scum". It sounds like he still wants me dead, but he is lying about how he feels about me so that I will stop pressuring him. I smell fear. I smell lies. I want blood. I want DrH to respond to all of my points against him now. He has been avoiding me for too long and my suspicion is starting to mount. Like 70% of this post isn't even about me and this is the best he can do? He's polluting his information and feels the need to be a part of irrelevant discussions, playing defensively, etc. yeah let's lynch him. And i just now realized you may have been asking me if I was lying about not having read sloOsh's post before I attacked Vayne and no I wasn't lying ?? Idk what you're looking for with that. | ||
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On July 17 2013 10:58 Oatsmaster wrote: Any good player should know that meta is subject to WIFOM and is nearly always meaningless. Marv owes me a post. Yeah, that's really stupid. I don't have multiple posts to waste talking about why meta arguments are fine when they're used correctly but people should listen to the podcast about "The Game". I've used meta arguments before to kill scum (see: Vivax in TL Mafia LXI) | ||
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So instead let's waste our Day 1 discussion on Malongo, the guy who isn't even defending himself? Cops/vigs/trackers/watchers/etc should take care of scummy lurkers. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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It's my policy never to analyze what VisceraEyes is doing. No matter what his role is - I will always come to the conclusion that VE is scum. Every single game I have read (and I have blind read several of his games I have not played with him in) I have come to the conclusion that he is 100% scum without any doubt. My opinion on VE is worthless. I have expressed this sentiment in several games (in which I am town in all of them). So sloOsh is in the hotseat. Fine. I'll look at him in a moment, but I'm not willing to drop it just because town sentiment has changed a little bit. I don't think FirmTofu is scum. Continuously choosing to attract attention by engaging with DrH seems really difficult for fresh off newbie games-scum to pull off. No one cares or should care about your conspiracy theory. I checked out the game and I think you have confirmation bias. His first post in Nuclear Winter is ~20 hours into the day, and his mega post is ~32 hours into the day, opposed to less than an hour in this game. I read maybe half of D1 in NWM, and the most he is called out for is inactivity. You're correct. I rescind my meta argument against FirmTofu because I lost sight of the context. Unlike NWM, he is under direct pressure from me in this game which will of course cause him to act differently. However, I think a few things are important. In NWM, he does a good job sticking to the point. He chooses to come swinging out of the gate with a "megapost" which contains absolutely no useful information. I define useful information as anything that will lead to the lynching of scum. Setup analysis is fine Day 1 because it generates discussion -> discussion leads to finding scum. However there is a particular sort of setup analysis/fluff post that comes out Day 1 that is troubling. That is the sort of post that is designed to portray the poster in the towniest light possible without being actually constructive. Rather than reading into the sort of things being said, it's important to look at the tone. In his attacks on me, he has continually misrepresented/twisted my positions/actions and jumped to conclusions rather quickly. FirmTofu 1. FirmTofu stated that sloOsh was making a consolidated effort to prevent people from PMing. This is false. sloOsh states that people who do not know how to mason constructively, should not do it at all. I do not agree with this point, but it is not a "consolidated effort". It is just sloOsh's position on how PMs should be utilized in a game. I would not be surprised if this is an opinion sloOsh had coming into the game, before he received his alignment. Arguing about this particular statement by sloOsh is absurd. 2. FirmTofu states that by claiming the above point, I am thereby giving a strong townread on sloOsh. Ridiculous. I said what sloOsh said didn't mean anything at all. Later in that post I stated "What sloOsh is doing is townier than what you're doing", directed at FirmTofu. This is not the same as claiming I have a strong townread on sloOsh. FirmTofu jumps illogically at the bait - MEANING he is looking for reasons to attack me rather than finding them naturally. sloOsh at that point, at least had offered some advice on how to PM constructively. FirmTofu had only been talking about the traitor role up until that point. 3. FirmTofu isn't making a real effort to start a bandwagon on me NOR is he posting cases in a constructive manner. Read FirmTofu's first case on me. It's very reactive, filled with misunderstandings and irrelevant information and thoughts on other happenings/players. A strong characteristic of his play in NWM is the surgical manner in which he approachs his scumreads. A huge majority of the content in his cases is filled with quotes from the accused player, he dedicates his entire post to this approach. Rather, he is being far more vague, accusing me of lying without specifying clearly and constructively what my lie is. Imagine you are town and I am scum in this game. You caught me in (apparently) a very obvious lie. What do you do? There is only one answer. Bring down the hammer of justice. There is no way a town FirmTofu isn't trying very hard to get me lynched right now, unless he is scum. I still don't even know what he is accusing me of lying about, which means he is doing a very unconvincing job of demonstrating what exactly I'm doing wrong. His cases in NWN were way more logical than this and I refuse to believe he simply became much much worse as a town player over the course of a week or so. I already explained why I originally stopped attacking FirmTofu and WHY I changed my mind. When I said I thought FirmTofu was town - this was related to him defending the pressure that was on him early in the game (related to his post about the traitor and nothing else). This occurred BEFORE he made a post calling me out for not attacking sloOsh and then both misrepresenting sloOsh AND myself. There is another window of time here that is critical but I need to reconsult filters to make sure I'm not remembering things wrong. <- If this is my "so called lie", then he's full of shit. When he told me that it was suspicious for not attacking sloOsh for discouraging PMing when I had criticized VayneAuthority for that, I told him "I didn't read sloOsh's post." FT claimed I was probably lying. However, I have no way to prove/argue this otherwise. There is nothing I can point to that would somehow prove I did or didn't read sloOsh's post at the time. But this is a shit argument. Regardless of the fact that they were saying completely different things about the PM mechanics at the time, this is a classic mafia tactic. Someone attacks the lurker who is on your team? Ask them why they're ignoring lurker Y and call them scum! These are shit arguments. No one has the diligence to pressure every player in the game at the same time. Yeah but why would a newbie scum like FT even argue with you? Why not? Why would a scum FirmTofu be particularly afraid of me? I can think of several games in where I had drawn out arguments with scum, newer scum, every type of scum. That's more WIFOM than a meta argument. Some wine is easier to drink. In Arkham City Mafia: scum were assigned specifically to attack/annoy me because Radfield knew my style of play. I tend to get either tunnel-vision in these situations, or lose confidence and become ineffective for the rest of the game. If you start to think of the games in these terms, town already lost. Do yourself a favor and google "no true scotsman". Based on this information I'm inclined to believe that sloOsh is the mafia bandwagon. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On July 18 2013 06:43 VisceraEyes wrote: 16/15 PS: I'm America It's important to me that you post the logs you have with sloOsh, and I would imagine that's important to everyone else as well. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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You bring up two things: 1. Me saying I didn't read sloOsh's post 2. Me backing off of you both of which I have explained at least three times each now. Why won't you tell me what I'm missing? | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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1. I didn't say that. Oats said I said that. Here is what I said (and I've posted the entire PM logs, another reason I think oats is scum.) Here is what I said: FirmTofu is in a position where he has a direct argument opportunity with me but wants to misdirect attention onto lurkers instead that's bad if he doesn't respond to what I said about sloOsh because somehow kushm4sta is more interesting then I'm absolutely voting for him. 2. And here is what I said about sloOsh: On July 16 2013 14:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Oh I found his post, yeah he's not saying no one should mason nor is he saying he is refusing to mason which is a really dumb thing to do. Now you're defending Vayne by using misdirection/misinterpretation! Interesting! slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. How could anybody interpret this as a strong townread? You sounded so confident that slOosh was town after glancing at his post. Why? Only scum could be so certain of such a thing. Considering that was the first time you had ever read slOosh's post, it doesn't really make sense for you to have such a strong reaction if you were town. But I'm NOT REACTING to his alignment. Strongly. Or otherwise. I'm explaining why what he is doing isn't a "consolidated effort". I mention the word townie ONCE! slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. Scum can easily fake townie perspectives. This hardly counts as a hard and intense reaction. In fact it is much softer and less reactive than your accusation of a "consolidated effort" which is ridiculous considering it is - as you emphasize - a single post. Yet you're calling me a liar here again - Why did you pretend as if you didn't see slOosh's post and then backtrack and defend him How do you know I pretended? You're assuming - confirmation bias - you were told to attack me and need a reason. You're the one that's backtracking. 1. Do you believe I lied about having missed sloOsh's post initially? 2. Looking at those two posts next to eachother, who's the one really having a strong reaction here? Now you're semi-dropping the argument, you won't concede that I'm not a liar or that I'm town but you can't go after me because you don't actually have any ammunition. Weird. | ||
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VE should shoot oatsmaster or kholly | ||
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he even backed off his accusations which is what everyone said a scum FT would do anyway so come on | ||
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I won't concede that you're not a liar That alone is proof to me that you are scum. Will you admit you completely misinterpreted the way I defended sloOsh? You still consider that a really extreme and strong townread? Jesus. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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The points against me are completely valid and you should all definitely look at them. If you feel I should defend myself from them, then force me to. an accused townie would never say this | ||
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You sounded so confident that slOosh was town after glancing at his post. Why? Only scum could be so certain of such a thing. Considering that was the first time you had ever read slOosh's post, it doesn't really make sense for you to have such a strong reaction if you were town. So you're admitting now that was a deliberate exaggeration to gauge my reaction of what I really thought of sloOsh? Well here's a list of some of my quotes regarding him: It's hardly a consolidated effort and I hardly ever said I have a strong townread on him either. In fact, I don't have any read on sloOsh cause I haven't been focused on him this game. He hasn't jumped out and grabbed my attention. read his defense he said i have a STRONG townread on sloosh which is not what i said, i was only pointing out how he misrepresented what sloosh was saying. saying that something is non-scummy from a player is not laying out a strong townread. he's panicking. Ridiculous. I said what sloOsh said didn't mean anything at all. Later in that post I stated "What sloOsh is doing is townier than what you're doing", directed at FirmTofu. This is not the same as claiming I have a strong townread on sloOsh. FirmTofu jumps illogically at the bait - MEANING he is looking for reasons to attack me rather than finding them naturally. sloOsh at that point, at least had offered some advice on how to PM constructively. FirmTofu had only been talking about the traitor role up until that point. The third quote by me is part of the post that made you unvote me! Yet you continue the argument about sloOsh! So your claim is: You deliberately claimed (this could be interpreted as lying more than anything I've done, by the way) that I was defending sloOsh harder than you really thought I was to probe my reaction. Why are you still probing my reaction? I've stated several times that I don't have a townread on sloOsh, much less a strong one. The only reason I even paid attention to sloOsh in the first place is because you used his post as a jumping off point to attack me!!!! If you respond with, "OF COURSE SLOOSH IS TOWN, HOW COULD HE NOT BE TOWN? LOOK AT HIS POST, JESUS CHRIST! OF COURSE HE'S TOWN." Then I pursue you further. Why? Because scum are more worried about being called liars than they are about their honest motivations. If you respond with, "Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to judge slOosh. You're right, he could definitely be either scum or town, but I'm leaning town atm." Then I would have dropped the case immediately. THIS IS BULLSHIT BECAUSE I NEVER JUDGED SLOOSH I NEVER CALLED HIM TOWN I NEVER SAID I HAD A READ ON HIM MY POST ABOUT SLOOSH WAS NEUTRAL IN FACT SEVERAL TIMES AFTER THE FACT, I SAID MORE OR LESS THE SECOND EXAMPLE (minus the part where I say "you're right" about anything because you're scum and wrong about everything). You're the one lying and making shit up now it's so obvious oh my god | ||
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On July 18 2013 08:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote: You said this AFTER saying you were returning me to a null read. The fact is I said sloOsh was null SEVERAL times after that and you ignored it completely. So you're admitting now that was a deliberate exaggeration to gauge my reaction of what I really thought of sloOsh? Well here's a list of some of my quotes regarding him: The third quote by me is part of the post that made you unvote me! Yet you continue the argument about sloOsh! So your claim is: You deliberately claimed (this could be interpreted as lying more than anything I've done, by the way) that I was defending sloOsh harder than you really thought I was to probe my reaction. Why are you still probing my reaction? I've stated several times that I don't have a townread on sloOsh, much less a strong one. The only reason I even paid attention to sloOsh in the first place is because you used his post as a jumping off point to attack me!!!! THIS IS BULLSHIT BECAUSE I NEVER JUDGED SLOOSH I NEVER CALLED HIM TOWN I NEVER SAID I HAD A READ ON HIM MY POST ABOUT SLOOSH WAS NEUTRAL IN FACT SEVERAL TIMES AFTER THE FACT, I SAID MORE OR LESS THE SECOND EXAMPLE (minus the part where I say "you're right" about anything because you're scum and wrong about everything). You're the one lying and making shit up now it's so obvious oh my god No one has anything to say? Anyone who thinks VE is scum is a moron. FT is literally lying and making things up and then refusing to talk about it YET that is the same thing he was just calling me scum for earlier was ignoring his "points" this is so bad and scummy. I bet my entire mafia career that this guy is either scum or so bad he should be banned forever. I will concede from this game and give my slot to a replacement if FT is town. | ||
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On July 18 2013 09:58 VisceraEyes wrote: So what's different about this game where you're so easily able to discern my real alignment, when you said earlier that every game you've ever read of mine you've thought I was scum Doc? God, I'm not keeping track of my own posts. Your logic is easier for me to follow in this game and I don't disagree with anything you've said. This lynch reminds me of GMarshal in "the Game" where people just started saying "Hey X is acting kinda different, lynch him!" and not actually paying attention to anything he is saying | ||
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On July 18 2013 10:21 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Both of those are terribad. like very terribad. VE gets lynched for doing dumb shit like this all the time, as for FT I really have no idea what you people think is scummy about him. Try again boo boo. No they aren't. you're too lazy to read my posts or you're his scumbuddy. There is no alternative. If you are too lazy to read what I'm saying about FirmTofu then you deserve to lose this game. tl;dr says i have strong townread on sloosh i said nothing of the sort and tell him that he says im not responding to his point (i did several times) he says if i had just said my read was null on sloosh in the first place i wouldn't be suspicious and he lied that he thought i had a strong townread on him - but somehow his case is predicated on my response to his post about sloosh being a strong townread i demonstrate that i had ALWAYS been saying the whole time that my read on him was null he ignores that completely and says im being irrational you can't do that then he drops his case but continues making the same arguments against me, he says he still believes i am a liar but refuses to call me scum or pursue that anymore instead now talking about cases that have absolutely no substance like ace/directing attention it makes no fucking sense given everything FT has said and his logic, there is no way he isn't voting for me whether or not my tunneling is "townie" according to him i am a confirmed liar but everything he has said about me I have demonstrated to be untrue or deceptive with actual fucking quotes just read my case and it's so obvious jesus, particularly my last post where I'm screaming in all caps how he is PROVEN 100% to be full of shit | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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he says "DrH makes valid points against me that are worth reading into." yet after he says that, he continues to argue against those exact points in a different context and make excuses for them. The only explanation for this is INHERENT GUILT. Remember when Promethelax said junglejorge in LXI was suspicious for defending him? Why would town ever say anything close to that. If FirmTofu is town, then I am wrong. Period. There is no reason to validate me, say I make a good point and then later ARGUE AGAINST THOSE POINTS AND SAY I MAKE NO SENSE. He's full of fucking shit he's trying to make himself look good and avoid arguing with me because he knows I nailed him and has no ammo, he's done. | ||
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On July 19 2013 01:33 gumshoe wrote: Wow, so much bad in so few words. 1: Hmm that sounds like a good point, wonder who said that, yeah that was you. And what was Meatpak if not a scummy lurker? He fit your initial preference, whats so scummy about Ve voting for him? Why didnt you consdider doing likewise, you were clearly around during the final hour seeing as you promptly made this jewel of a post. 2: A townie only knows for sure that he is a townie, it is his duty to make sure that he does not get lynched, Meatpak was a viable lynch and would have happened if not for Knolly, are you telling me that if you were in that exact same spot and another likely lynched popped up you would not vote to save yourself? 3: Why are you trying to justify a bad lynch? It happened, it was party your fault yes, but the point is to acknowledge the mistake and see what it means, instead you spend a precious post insulting Ve and defending your own retarded stance. 4: How many times do we need to say this? Ve could have confirmed himself, why would townies feel the need to vote for him right away? Grrrrr scum post detected. Also thanks Marv your the best ( : I don't really need a mason from anyone else anymore. Do you see what I'm saying about this guy now? No one masoned with me, I think marv or rayn should since I have strong gut feelings both are town. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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I have one mason left and I'm unsure who to use it on, or if it would even be wise to use it Night 1. I'm currently masoned (my choice in bold) with yamato77 and oatsmaster. The pardoner claim is ultimately inconclusive but rayn has been playing pro-town this game. I will requote my thoughts on him from a PM. There is no need to engage in a circular argument about the pardoner role. rayn has been acting very townie, he's playing recklessly and honestly. he's giving out way more information than he needs to. #1 rule of being mafia - give town only the information that suits your interests he claimed pardoner day 1 (an oft lynched demonstrably anti-town role) and also posted oatsmasters logs about me without prompt people called him scum for being overly trusting, but this is a town trait NOT a mafia trait, mafia don't want to slip up in PMs and unless they have a clear plan of manipulation (pushing agenda) it's a waste of time - but rayn was using PMs to probe oatmasters head, a useless activity as scum because what any individual town thinks doesn't matter really Rayn as scum could have used the information from oats to push me but he didn't. In fact he wasn't the one that accused me of lying, it was FirmTofu and other players that brought it up. Rayn was very reasonable about the whole affair which is a big missed opportunity for scum. but tl;dr who wants to mason tonight? I'm so ignored. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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I find it unlikely. In the scenario that we're both town, a continued argument between us is beneficial to scum. Even if you choose to not engage with me, it will keep my attention on you Day 2 which is another day that mafia won't feel any sort of pressure from me. In the scenario that I'm scum and you're town, there's no reason I can't feign contribution by continuing to push you tomorrow. | ||
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FirmTofu slipped up. When I posted my first "logical" case on him he says the following (paraphrasing): DrH makes some good points against me, people should look into them and form their own opinions. Does this sound like a townie to you? How many players in here have been falsely accused before and thought "Yeah, he makes a good point. People should listen to him!" Nobody. The same arguments I made in that post - that FirmTofu referred to as valid - are the same points I kept referring to ad nauseum, which he later calls irrational, emotional, nonsense. In fact - no one else in the thread is even buying them as valid! So in fact - FirmTofu is the sole person who agreed with my case against FirmTofu in the first place! Yet, as time goes on, he continues to insist my arguments hold no merit, that I am a liar, etc! If I am a liar - how am I town? If you look at all of his big posts in this thread - they lead to nothing and the motivations behind them are unclear or disjointed. This is not the same town FT I read in NWM. Couple that with his first post at the beginning of the game and his motivation is clear - to be nonconfrontational and look as townie as possible. Rather than destroying my points (which have no way of being valid or correct if he is a townie - not to mention he says they are valid one minute and then continues to argue against them, which is ridiculously suspicious) he disengages and wastes his posts casting doubt on me. What is the point of casting doubt on me if you don't even believe I'm mafia? It's so easy to sit back and say "You guys are dumb for lynching VE!!!!!" knowing as scum he's going to lynch town, but you didn't make an effort to push the lynch around to someone else. I screamed my face off trying to get somebody to vote for this guy with me and all FT does is sit back and let it happen, reap in the town cred. It's ridiculous! | ||
DoctorHelvetica
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On July 19 2013 03:55 FirmTofu wrote: I tend to agree. I don't think I will be killed today because my death would make you useful to town again. Oh, I didn't mean my scum reads. I am definitely going to post those. I wanted to know if you wanted me to post my town reads or if that would just give scum too much information to work with in the event that I do not die. scum knows who is town, they have literally perfect town reads, why would that help them in any way? people are so concerned about this idea of "helping scum" the fact is anything we have already thought of, scum probably discussed/thought of way before us. it's nothing to worry about. you don't need to say who you think the medic is or whatever of course, why would that help scum? wtf | ||
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And here I thought I masoned an intelligent, rational player. Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: You're mafia Hide nested quote - Original Message From yamato77: It's easy to say that after a lynch. I might have switched if I'd been there for his claim and shit but I was working. But whatever, now it's even more important to scumhunt well. I don't know what the fuck Ace and Meapak are doing but between the both of them there's fuck all content produced. I knew I should have gone with my gut on MZ. He's been in the game since the beginning and hasn't even tried to actually play. As for FT, dude, I'm not convinced. You've been tunneling him the whole day and it's gotten to a point where even if he is mafia, no one is listening to you. And again, even if he is mafia, there are still 4 others in the game alive, so it might be best to look at other people for a while. If it comes around tomorrow and he's still your strongest read, then maybe it's real. Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: wait, did you vote him? ugh it was relaly obvious he is town Original Message From yamato77: What the fuck? Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: if you vote for VE i'm pushing you to be vig shot tomorrow night Original Message From yamato77: er, scratch that. Oats calling me scum is not alignment indicative. He does that every game. He makes good points about VE in his posts and he's one of the most active players both in the thread and in PMs. I don't think an Oats case is going to be useful. Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: oh, and it's important that oatsmaster doesn't know i think he is scum for a while at least can you tell me when/if you plan on making a constructive post so i can PM you a poisonpill case to add to it, i'm really trying hard not to hit post limit before the last few hours pre-lynch, obviously if you change anything i will bandwagon you hard | ||
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goodbye tofu | ||
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if you think the scum team all voted/pushed VE in unison you are mistaken. anyone who tries to push marvellosity or rayn at this point is also mafia or completely absent from thread. i.e. Kholly | ||
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The lynch is already decided. We need to determine if we have another town day KP or who we can shoot tomorrow night, bring out yamato/FT's teammates. Splintering wagons onto Ace may have been a ploy to save sloOsh in the case that he was lynched. | ||
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Look for anyone that sheeped Yamato in the meantime, but FT is cooked. | ||
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On July 20 2013 02:56 kushm4sta wrote: oats - this guy is pretty unreadable. I can see him easily being town or scum. I have definitely seen him act like this as town. ft - town. his response to aces fake claim was really in depth and townie. go reread it of you think it makes him scummy because honestly it is one of the towniest things in the game. marv - scum or third party. Really seems like he doesn't give a shit. defended yamato. defended sloosh. said he thought dbz lynch was retarded but did nothing to stop it. The least he should have done is change his cote to sloosh. sloosh - scum. the dbz lynch was retarded. beyond retarded. like a negative score on the iq test retarded. he claimed and he could PROVE his role the next day. yet he was still lynched. this points to dbz lynch being the scum alternative to the sloosh wagon. kushm4sta is scum, this post is basically proof oatsmaster is probably scum but im unwilling to stop bandwagoning firmtofu. if firmtofu is not lynched in this game I will never sign up for another mafia game again in my life. my case cannot be reduced to meta (the least important part of my case, just extra evidence that is acctually getting stronger over time if you pay attention to what FT Is actually doing) or the simple point of him validating me (which singlehandedly pproves he is scum and not town, beyond a shadow of a doubt) there is way more but people are too lazy to read or comprehend the business about sloOsh, i'm almost ready to give up on this game because of this regardless - oats is an acceptable lynch - he was very active in PMing me before, probing my mind and trying to gain an understanding of what I was thinking - as soon as I stopped pressuring him at all in PMs or going to him, he completely stopped PMing me or offering any thought whatsoever, he wasn't utilizing our mason at all. tbh this is what first made me suspicious of yamato77, was that I had to try really hard to get anything out of them. Oatsmaster has been doing this thing in PMs with me where he answers one question of mine and not really the other until I really push him for it. But he hasn't PMd me since the first half of Day 1 actually. That's very odd. | ||
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On July 20 2013 04:35 raynpelikoneet wrote: Koshi why not vote for OATS? I tried to convince oats I was scum and he wouldn't bite but I'm not sure what that means | ||
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On July 21 2013 15:29 kholly wrote: You don't think scum will kill you for me? Don't forget you were in jail yesterday. You can thank FirmTofu for that. Was I? I never got any sort of PM from a mod so I don't know what you're talking about yet until I catch up to the thread. | ||
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On July 22 2013 14:58 Oatsmaster wrote: Vivax stopped calling marv scum, why do you disagree with that DrH? I just ten seconds ago read that FirmTofu flipped blue. I haven't read a single post by vivax in this game. Based on my PMs from marv adn that information I'm inclined to think he's scum, how passively he is playing. Original Message From marvellosity: Hey DrH, can you ask Oats exactly why he masoned VE? Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: ah, well im not paying a ton fo attention to him right now i caught on to yamato quick, it was a gut read but it was basically the fact that he went about trying to get VE lynched in such a sneaky mafia way, he wasn't pushing him super honestly in the thread, he was trolling around in PM land trying to find credibility and basically just throwing doubt on VE until it caved in, it wasn't like an honest "omg you are scum let me hammer you" town way of doing it never once did it seemed like he actually cared or wanted to convince me that VE was scum at all Original Message From marvellosity: Twice I've made the mistake with yamato of thinking "he's just busy...". Apparently I don't learn. I have really, really long irc chats with Vivax. If he's mafia I'll be extremely impressed. Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: i think vivaxx might be the mafia that they wantt o bus, there's uusually one guy that gets called out by his own team in thread you know it's him when people keep calling him out but NO ONE ever makes a move to actually get people to lynch that guy - vivax is that guy right now people think im just tunneling firmtofu but ive been like 90% sure yamato was scum for a while i just don't feel the need to push 2-3 scumreads at the same time, if im gonna post a list its gonna be night 2 after FT goes down once they realize i was onto yamato and FT dies they don't have much choice i think Original Message From marvellosity: That's fair enough. You know I'm basically an ally on FT anyway. Vivax doesn't believe Ace's claim. Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: I don't really care, here is a pmm i have with someone else where i aalready said my thoughts | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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