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Forum Index > TL Mafia
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marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-11 16:04:30
April 11 2013 16:04 GMT
#1835
On April 12 2013 01:02 DarthPunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 01:00 marvellosity wrote:
I just like lynching people, what can I say :<

what game did I lynch you in?


Paranoia.


Oh, well then. I was under retarded pressure all day, my pushes in those situations are always diabolical. Collateral damage babe <3

P.S your jokes were different
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 16:10 GMT
#1837
On April 12 2013 01:09 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 01:03 marvellosity wrote:
On April 12 2013 01:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On April 12 2013 00:56 DarthPunk wrote:
On April 12 2013 00:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
DP have you ever been lynched in a game?


Yeah. Twice. The first time was my first newbie. The second time it was marvs fault but Bugs yelled at him a lot and pm'd me apologising for letting me get lynched. So that made me feel better.

Yeah then your record is very impressive. What i mean is even if you got a record of 100-0 it doesn't really mean anything if you are lynched in 80% of the games. And then you are clearly doing something wrong.

After all this is a game where not only what you say matters, but who are the people analyzing what you are saying and do they believe you. If nobody believes you it doesn't matter how right you are and you are doing something wrong. :D


Yeah, stats in mafia are a very interesting thing, for reasons you mention and others. I've played 40 (!) games here and been lynched once as town and twice as mafia.

I've only been lynched once, and it was right at the end of LX. Does that mean I'm a good player too?


It sure does.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 16:13 GMT
#1839
Bears a remarkable resemblance to you, oddly.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-11 16:20:15
April 11 2013 16:16 GMT
#1843
I was going for truthful

edit: oats, not sure you know what 'sheeping' means dear
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 16:36 GMT
#1848
On April 12 2013 01:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
I disagree still.

There is nothing that indicates a scumteam of sciberbia/DP/whoever would necessarily have been better than what we had.

You know why? Cause people like Axle, who play very differently dependent on alignment, are unlikely to get lynched as town.

It's all just conjecture, saying that you would have been able to balance the game better on that basis without considering those 3 vets. The argument is based on seeing the results, but there is no empirical evidence that it actually holds in practice (also there's no evidence that the reason the scumteam lost was because of player imbalance either!)

And to top it all off there's no measure of skill that says the scumteam you proposed is better than the one that was in this game, or that the change would have kept town level the same.

E: this was @ DP and whomever else was talking about the teams


I'm kinda tempted, in a completely arbitrary manner, to do some kind of ELO rating for players with both a town and a mafia ELO, with results in games averaged across the team's ELO. Just for curiosity of how it looks.

On a speculative note, you could say that you'd expect games with a higher proportion of players with large disparity between town and mafia ELOs to have more positive town results, regardless of 'objective' rating.

For example a game of 12 iamperfections would more often result in a town win than a game of 12 wbgs.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-11 17:00:58
April 11 2013 16:55 GMT
#1858
Just as an arbitrary example for this game, if we take 1500 ELO to be 'starting' ELO with 2500 being totally exceptional and 500 being very poor, you might see something like the following (apologise in advance for over/under estimating players, more for shits and giggles)

1. iamperfection; town ELO 2000 mafia ELO 1000
2. WaveofShadow; town ELO 1500 mafia ELO 1500
3. Ace; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 2500
4. prplhz; town ELO 1600 mafia ELO 1200
5. DarthPunk; town ELO 2000 mafia ELO 2000
6. Oatsmaster; town ELO 1400 mafia ELO 1300
7. Tunkeg; town ELO 1500 mafia ELO 1500
8. Palmar; town ELO 2400 mafia ELO 2000
9. marvellosity; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 2400
10. Axlegreaser; town ELO 1300 mafia ELO 1300
11. raynpelinkeet; town ELO 1600 mafia ELO 1600
12. sciberbia; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 1700

Average strength of mafia team in this game: 4100/3 = 1366.6
Average strength of town team in this game: 17400/9 = 1933.3

Best theoretical mafia team: 6900/3 = 2300
Worst theoretical town team: 15000/9 = 1666.6

Average town ELO: 21600/12 = 1800
Average mafia ELO: 20000/12 = 1666.6
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 17:00 GMT
#1860
On April 12 2013 01:58 syllogism wrote:
While you are doing arbitrary math, can you factor in the advantage town gets from knowing that teams aren't RNGed


Well the thing is, it becomes much less arbitrary if I go back many games and factor in results of each game, because ELO by its nature is self-correcting.

So if I make a guess that's originally too high, if they lose games then their rating would fall quite quickly.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 17:01 GMT
#1863
see my last post
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 17:08 GMT
#1871
On April 12 2013 02:04 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 02:00 marvellosity wrote:
On April 12 2013 01:58 syllogism wrote:
While you are doing arbitrary math, can you factor in the advantage town gets from knowing that teams aren't RNGed


Well the thing is, it becomes much less arbitrary if I go back many games and factor in results of each game, because ELO by its nature is self-correcting.

So if I make a guess that's originally too high, if they lose games then their rating would fall quite quickly.

Yes but the point I'm making is, there is no REAL mathematical way of estimating skill like this. Any numbers you come up with or what a win or loss does to this arbitrary number is still just that, arbitrary.

As a player plays more and more games in a team setting, elo becomes more accurate supposedly, but with a sample size like TL Mafia, there is absolutely no way a skill rating like elo would come close to being an accurate representation. There are WAY too many mitigating factors such as the hosts, style of game (mini/normal/themed/whatever), roles available, who is playing in said game, etc. Theoretically this would matter less if people could play hundreds of games but that doesn't happen here.


Well, 'who is playing in said game' is something that would indeed be factored in

It would be more a project of curiosity rather than something that absolutely establishes skill, obviously.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 17:48 GMT
#1878
btw, i'm not saying at all the ELO would be 'accurate', but it would be kinda interesting to see how the scores measured up to how the playerbase perceives different players. And then also to see how good the rating system was at predicting results of games...

like pretty sure Palmar's town ELO would be way lower than how he is perceived; he lost YANMM and LVIII as town, and as mafia I've handed him 4 other losses besides that in the last year (LIV, Death Note, NMM3, Hero), so his ELO would be relatively low for someone of his stature.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 17:56 GMT
#1881
On April 12 2013 02:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
talking about Elo like this is more evidence that your entire mentality is results-based.

winrate is not everything in a game like this, because there are so many factors that go into a game. You can't compare a win in one game to a win in another; it's the same reason people fuck up meta all the time. Games are not strictly comparable one to one.

There are plenty of worse players who get carried and plenty of better players who get brought down. Yes, winrates may correlate with skill, but not nearly as strongly in other team games, because the sample sizes are so small. Average games played is probably less than 10. Good luck getting anything statistically significant out of samples that small.

(for the record; I have 7 mafia games. You think you're gonna get anything useful out of those from an objective standpoint?)


how many times do i have to repeat that it wouldn't be an objective measure?

why are you taking it so seriously???
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-11 17:59:27
April 11 2013 17:59 GMT
#1883
As I said when I first mentioned it, just curiosity for how it would look...

edit: and i guess curiosity for how well it measured future games (not well, i imagine)
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 18:00 GMT
#1886
It came about because of the discussion on game balance, but nowhere did I even begin to suggest it should have anything to do with balancing games.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 18:37 GMT
#1891
well why not, right?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 18:42 GMT
#1894
Can't argue with 100% as mafia. Teach me!

The sheer number of stats there are like your 1-6 town record would make ratings quite amusing.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 18:45 GMT
#1896
You could go into games dismissing his opinions entirely out of hand because your rating is 500 points above his which obviously means he's a scrub and you're a god and he should bow down before you immediately.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 19:07 GMT
#1898
I was trying to and then bugs took me all serious and called me toxic for no reason :<
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
April 11 2013 19:26 GMT
#1906
spr srs.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
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