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Why is this game not full? Seriously, it looks awesome.
I wish I had time to play. I'm giving you an ad-bump just out of respect for how cool this setup is.
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We don't need to deny mafia roles necessarily, we just need to be smart about our own role picks and usage in order to win.
If there's any plan I want to espouse to town is - pick the informative roles. Mafia have zero purpose for them, as they generally know the alignments of nearly every player in the game. While knowing the ROLE of a player is nice, most of the information roles deal with alignment, which mafia rarely has any use for.
Contest KP roles as early picks. If you are town, it is imperative that we take KP roles before mafia get them. There are enough good town players in this game that we should be able to win as long as some of us live, which means denying mafia the power to kill us off easily. Defensive roles are in the same vein; if you are good at getting town reads but bad at identifying mafia, you should opt for them over the KP roles.
If a town player with an early pick wants to deny a strong mafia-favored role, I think it's fine. While this opens up a can of worms as to whether they are actually town or not if they get rolecop'd, the main thing a town player should adhere to when picking this kind of role is to CLAIM THAT YOU HAVE IT. Mafia's advantage with this role is keeping it secret for a while and then using it as a surprise to town. If you are town and feel like you want to deny mafia this role, you HAVE TO claim it, because not doing so and getting found out should be a policy-lynch, because town cannot have you alive at lylo, for the risk.
As a general strategy, though, town should be aiming at INFO/KP/DEFENSIVE roles. Mafia will be aiming at the CYCLE/VOTE RIGGING/MANIPULATING roles. The only overlap (assuming town and mafia don't try to deny each other's roles) would be in the KP section, which most of the early picks from town SHOULD go to. I would rather town have a lot of vig's and such than mafia having them, and allowing them vote-rigger roles and such is less of a detriment, as long as town is able to play smart throughout.
As for late-picks as town, try to pick a role you know mafia probably wouldn't even try to contest. It's more important for us, as town, to get a lot of people with pro-town roles than it is for us to try to get "powerful" roles that could have already been taken. Mafia also NEED a role more than town, so it's not so bad if you end up vanilla, as your ability to scumhunt is still the most powerful thing in the game. You will need it regardless, as most roles as town RELY on your ability to identify good targets for your role.
ON THAT NOTE: Pick a role that you can use at your skill level! Be real with yourself. Some of these roles could be EXTREMELY bad for town if used improperly, even if used by a town player. I know we all have huge egos, but if you have ANY doubts about your ability to use your role to its MAXIMUM pro-town effect, please do not pick it. There are plenty of roles that are easy to use that won't fuck over town. Think wisely.
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I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads.
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On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:49 geript wrote: @Shelvocke So your plan is to just keep everything hidden in order to prevent Mafia from getting any extra knowledge? No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an asideIm not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. The thing is, mocsta, it is far more important for town to deny certain roles to mafia than it is for town to have a role period. Through the public draft order, town can virtually deny mafia a role by assigning the role to a strong townread that is close to the front of the pack. If that player is town, he either gets the role OR town knows the possible people that COULD have gotten the role. Either way, it hurts mafia.
I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL.
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On April 04 2013 13:05 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote: Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them. If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion. I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game. There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions. The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it. This brings up my only real problem with the idea, which is that there are a LOT of roles town kinda wants to deny.
HOWEVER, there are some which are either too hard to use effectively as town, or flat out mafia favored, which town SHOULD deny. We can easily identify 1-3 of those and deny mafia all of them.
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On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote: I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.. What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop. Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you.
It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED.
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There are ways we can play around a role like janitor, but you are right in that town would be better off denying the role completely.
Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta.
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On April 04 2013 13:15 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:08 yamato77 wrote: I like this plan the more I think about it, actually. Ir simply relies on townies playing very town, which is easy enough in today's TL. I just came out of "The Game" so you will have to excuse me if we differ with opinion on this matter. For me personally regardless of player list Early Game: I put the trust in myself to either blend in as scum; or stand out as a contributor as town. Regardless, I am not relying on "town" to act "town". As I said before, if you want to follow this path. Fine. But right now, I have no means to knowing what you or sharrant or any other plan pushers alignment is. And hence, as I said before, I choose not to participate. Why?The stuff you are speaking of, is essentially common sense pro-town stuff that could be endorsed by town or scum. I am not going to comment further on this. Best of luck with what ever path you intend to choose pre-draft. One last thing, because while you are being unnecessarily negative, I do not want you to simply dismiss this idea because you don't think town can act town.
My alignment does not influence my plan, necessarily. You admit that it is "pro-town", which is correct. That's all that matters. I am not espousing the idea that I be chosen, necessarily, I am simply trying to formulate a way to use the setup to town's advantage, which I believe to have done. While it may only be a LIMITED advantage, admittedly, any advantage is better than none.
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On April 04 2013 13:19 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote: I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.
It does depend somewhat on picking order, and people's compliance with this plan, however. We don't know ho effective it could be, our townreads might be at the bottom of the list where it is too late to make a REAL difference, and the top of the list is all lurkers/null reads. Lettuce ask a very simple question here. How does one assign a role to a player who could conceivably pick at any spot?
On April 04 2013 13:17 Keirathi wrote: Serious question for you, yamato:
What if the 1-2 people you have "solid town reads" on by tomorrow when the picking phase starts are #22 and #23 in the draft order?
Same question, I presume. We pick tomorrow, which gives us 24 hours to FORMULATE the town reads. We then look at the draft order, and see if we have good town reads on the first 4-5 people in the draft order. Outside of that, we can't control it very much, but if we CAN deny mafia roles through this method, WE SHOULD. if we can't, oh well, but we've at least attempted to gain an advantage. The plan doesn't hurt town if it doesn't work for some reason, it can only help if it does.
On April 04 2013 13:17 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 13:13 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 13:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 13:05 yamato77 wrote: I kind of like the idea of town "assigning" certain roles to people. I think most of town should be able to agree on 1-2 decent townreads to deny mafia roles with. It's also very hard for mafia to BE a top townread of an entire thread, so there's that.. What malarkey are you spewing forth Yamato? The draft is in 24hrs. You are going to have 1 or 2 decent town reads, when the current game is all "foreplay" for roles? I didnt mind your first post; it had some sentiments similar to my post. But this post just now; I can not endorse. Everygame, people say: mafia high activity will expose them at the end. Well I say: that could be too late, especially for a "town read" with 3 nukes because we thought they were town during the pre-draft. If you can muster a large enough group to support this concept; best of luck to you. Know that I will not be participating. Full stop. Yes, I can be reasonably certain that I will have 1-2 town reads that I am confident in within 24 hours. I am also certain that there will be enough people that agree with me that we can deny mafia the role by using them. If you aren't I'm sorry for you. It's not even about activity necessarily, as scum can be ACTIVE, but easy to catch. the function of general activity of scum is to BLEND IN, because under the scrutiny this would require, most mafia would simply not hold up. ALL OF TOWN would be looking at you and deciding on your alignment, which is a good thing. Mafia would be hard-pressed to garner enough real support, and if they did, I would be SHOCKED. There are plenty of people in this player list that can garner support as scum; either by blending skill *OR* reputation. I simply do not agree.
You were in LIX, where Marv was supertown and we all elected him. Town is good at getting town reads, and the PROCESS of arguing for who looks the most town to get these roles is essentially a mayoral election, which gives us more information out of the picking phase than simply letting people pick whatever they want.
I do think scum have a CHANCE at looking town enough, but I feel that it is very slim. I also feel that if they get a role like this, they'll still be under extreme scrutiny the entire game, which is a point in TOWN'S favor. I am generally more optimistic about this process than you, Mocsta. Fortunately, my plan does not require 100% participation.
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Assigning picks to draft order before knowing the order is horrible; you would have to policy lynch people that gets certain roles at certain point in the game.
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On April 04 2013 14:01 Oatsmaster wrote: Keep in mind that everyone knows their alignments and this isnt pregame bullshit. I think that scum already have their qt so yeah....
Also I think that directed picking is HORRIBLE for town. Because its like directing blue roles. NOT GOOD.
No, it's not anything like that at all.
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But it's not what I'm suggesting.
What do you think about my plan, in specific?
For consolidation, my plan is to assign TOWN-LOOKING players that are early in the draft order roles that mafia would want, so that we can deny mafia these roles, such as vote-rigger or janitor.
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On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote: So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid.
You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role.
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On April 04 2013 14:41 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 14:32 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 14:25 Oatsmaster wrote: So you claim your draft order number thing?
1. that takes the fun out of PYP because you dont actually get to PICK YOUR POWER.
2. if scum get in the top 5 or whatever, bad things yo.
3. Dont play to not let the mafia win, play to win.
The point of the game is winning. If you want to be retarded and pick a "cool" role and then proceed to use it to lose town the game, it is not fun for everyone else. Inhibiting mafia's ability to pick ridiculous roles is inherently necessary to ensuring that town succeeds. Don't be stupid. You also fail to understand the mechanic. By assigning a player MOST or ALL people agree is probably town a role that MAIFA wants, we effectively deny mafia the role. Yeah thats playing to prevent mafia from winning. Like OH LETS PICK JANITOR FOR THIS DUDE. you are basically a VT. Why dont you pick janitor? VT be boring yo. "Playing to prevent mafia from winning" is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as playing to help town win. Just arguing against it by saying it's "boring" is bullshit. Oats, you aren't this stupid.
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Is denying mafia a janitor role, which denies town CRUCIAL information (player's alignments) or getting a cop role, which gives one person in town UNRELIABLE information more important.
It pains ME to have to walk YOU through this. Mafia are hurt more through the denial of good roles than town are. Town's most powerful asset is INHERENT TO THE GAME, which is their ability to scumhunt.
Do you feel like you need to rely on a role to win as town? Do you feel that way as mafia? Think about these questions, and then come back to me with a more definite answer.
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On April 04 2013 14:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Dumdumdum,
I dont feel like roles are necessary to win for either alignment.
Also in my example, its 1 or the other, mafia dont get a choice, they already have their roles.
Does janitor affect lynch flips?
Janitor only works at night, but there will be more flips then than at lynch.
Think about this:
We, as town, have a consensus town read on 4 players going into the pick phase. TWO of them get in the top five, one at number 2, and one at number 5.
If we tell the guy at number two to pick janitor, and he is actually town (meaning town did a good job townhunting), then we either DENY MAFIA THE ROLE, or confirm the first player to pick as mafia. Either way, it's a good outcome for town, and the MOST LIKELY situation is that we simply deny mafia the role and make that player a VT, which is absolutely okay.
Rinse, repeat with Vote-rigger for the person in the fifth slot, and deny mafia another powerful role. This is quite town-favored, because while town roles mostly focus on augmenting someone's scumhunting capabilities, mafia roles overtly interfere with town's ability to scumhunt effectively. Mafia roles also tend to be more powerful because of the nature of the game, which is that mafia are vastly outnumbered while having the advantage of being informed and coordinated. This means that town SHOULD be more occupied with denying mafia roles like these and KP roles than getting other roles which only somewhat aid their ability to scumhunt.
Capisce?
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Denying mafia roles such as:
Traditional Mafia Roles (barring traitor roles) Vote Altering Roles KP roles
Would be town's priority with the early picks.
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I somewhat understand the position of Mocsta, which is that he sees the flaw in the plan being that town may fuck up and accidentally give the role to a mafia. This is only so bad as town lets it be, as the alternative to attempting to deny the role is giving it to mafia anyway, which is what you'd be doing if mafia somehow was the consensus town read from this period. Mafia should be trying to "look town" anyway, to some extent, so it's not like the implementation of this plan changes or alters anything that scum would do, or hurts town in any way. Worst case scenario is just as bad as doing nothing, and the best case scenario is quite pro-town. It's a win for even trying.
Oats, also, I kind of understand. His stance is "pick a role and have fun", which other people have basically said. I understand this notion, because it does seem to tread into WIFOM-territory with trying to direct things like this, but in all honesty, it's a safe plan that might gain town an advantage where one was not to be had before. The pick order being public exists for a reason, right? Why can't we attempt to use the setup to our advantage instead of just hoping the role distribution favors town?
If there are any other semi-legitimate objections to my plan, I would like to hear them. At the very least, consider the pick order as something to ponder over. How can we, as town, use it to our advantage? Can we deny mafia roles, or perhaps ensure that town gets some of the ones they want? It is arguable that the game could well be won or lost by how we pick roles, so don't just blow it off like it's nothing. Seriously consider what it is you want to do in the next two days of play time. I want to hold a pseudo-mayoral election and try to deny mafia some power roles. What do YOU want to do?
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It obviously depends on what town is trying to do with those picks.
While some town players could be directed, like my plan would have them be, other ones who we aren't telling what to do could just as easily try to deny mafia roles (and claim them as I said), or pick KP/DOC/INFO roles to aid town.
If town picks to deny and claims, mafia could pick the BC role and shoot them. Mafia could pick the role thief and steal it. Mafia could pick from other pro-mafia roles that exist in the game. There are plenty of options at mafia's disposal, but denying them SOME of those options can only be good for town, no?
No plan here is going to be perfect, but isn't it worth at least TRYING to do something good for town in this pick phase?
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The problem with that is trusting the source. If someone we don't trust claims they tried to pick Russia and failed, how reliable is that? Not very much, but you can guarantee it eats up part of town's day analyzing the claim. I don't want to encourage this, as even well-intentioned claims could have unintended consequences that are anti-town.
If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles.
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On April 04 2013 21:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: How do you determine what is "dangerous" role and what is not? There is a large amount of roles that are dangerous in a way or another. I agree that there are many roles that are dangerous by themselves, but it's not like early picks who are town should just deny "dangerous" mafia roles by picking prince of darkness/janitor/admiral ackbar and then never use it. Because they are then essentially vanilla and that's far worse than them having a role that actually helps town.
And whoever suggested that America is a dangerous role, that's just stupid. Like all the other KP roles are far more dangerous in mafia's hands. I've specifically argued against this notion, so if you want to claim that this is the case, you're going to have to try harder than that. Why is denying mafia a role like janitor or admiral ackbar (which significantly impedes town) worse than getting a role that might only help the one player, or might be situational enough to not matter at all?
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Caller, you're going to have to argue in specific against my plan if you want to gain any traction here. How is a FEW players from town stealing the WORST mafia roles at all bad for town? We just have to be good town hunters. That shouldn't be too difficult, no?
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On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote: oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite?
This is retarded and an anti-town sentiment. While it isn't alignment indicative, it is worth me saying; ignore the fuck out of Caller. This discussion has real meaning, or you can be sure that the no-bullshit player in yamato wouldn't be having it. You are not mafia for having this discussion, and real reads can be gotten here.
On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it.
On April 04 2013 23:14 austinmcc wrote:WEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEEOOOWEELate start. If you want to argue about the setup, please read the last PYP game like this before doing so. Same discussions. I think there is reasonable discussion there that we don't need to have again. If you're arguing about how we choose roles/numbers/whatever this game without reading that or referencing it, you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're spamming up the thread in a way that isn't helpful. This game is different in two major ways that I see. (1) Different role list. (2) Some players getting bonuses for picking a specific type of role. I like the ideas from the older PYP of denying certain strong mafia roles (Janitor is VERY powerful, think of how much damage a 12-hour delayed SINGLE flip caused in Personality 2. Now imagine a N1 janitor usage in a game full of PYP-ed KP roles, and 4-5 flips FOREVER hidden. No bueno). Multi-KP roles, Janitor, other roles are things that we NEED to deny as town. In this game "pick the best role for town" often equals "deny mafia their best role" because they will often be able to use a role super-optimally where town can't (town doc doesn't always save, mafia KP role always hits townies, stuff like that). Once we have a picking order, we SHOULD be assigning some roles, and I also like RNGing some roles so that scum can't 100% know what's left and what's not. Any scum receiving VT is FANTASTIC for us. Artanis, we can both block roles AND RNG. They did last game and it made some sense. Check the bit on how (1), (2), and (3) in that game were supposed to pick. seriously though, if you're going back and forth with someone(s) about whether we should do x or y, at the very least go read the last game. Especially Qatol's posts, which tended to be super sensible and concise. We want to plan for the best draft we can get. Reading their planning stages, and how it played out for them, should be part of our planning.
On April 04 2013 23:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 23:18 Caller wrote:On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want.
I like the sentiments espoused about RNG of role picks in the early phase by these two players. It is an addition to the spirit of my idea that gives EVEN MORE information to town, and effectively denies scum even more roles. It also becomes harder for scum to counterplay against it, and gives less general information to mafia. It's all kinds of pro-town, and I endorse it. Good stuff.
On April 04 2013 23:00 Oatsmaster wrote: I also think all the plans are hilariously scum favoured, there is a reason why dudes dont claim unless they have to or are VE.
As an update on Oats, I don't understand why he is still playing contrary to this stuff. I feel like his posts lack a logical direction in these conversations. I will be filtering him shortly and seeing if my feelings are confirmed or not.
As of reading the thread since I posted last, these are the things I have noticed. If people feel I have unjustly ignored them, please bring your concerns to me and I will answer.
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On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote: Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate.
You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen?
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I also agree with a lot of the stuff Sharrant says, specifically his idea of town wanting conflicting numbers. We do have a numbers advantage, don't waste it.
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On April 05 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote: Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate. You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point. Please dont. Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM' Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum? I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time Yes, I will mention the most, because it's a valid fucking point when deconduo is talking about what HE DID AS A HOST.
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I feel like if we could lynch right now, I'd want to lynch between oats/caller.
Anyone else feel different?
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On April 05 2013 00:09 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? Pretty much. This is not a new opinion, I've said the same in every PYP game I've played. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? Good question actually. If you take the drafting part out of the equation, the game plays out pretty much the same as any insane type setup. Apart from that, you can start deducing roles from vanilla claims, flips and actions taken. Some roles will be pretty obvious once they are used, such as janitor, PoD etc. Once you know that a role is in the game you can start working out who has it, and if they've used it in a pro or anti-town manner. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote: You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? You can try your hardest to win without taking advantage of what you consider to be faults in the system. As I said, if people prefer to play to win no matter what, I'll go along with them. I'm just stating my objection in the hopes that other people will feel the same was as I do. If cheesing every game gave you the best chance to win, would you still do it? You define it as cheesing. BC did not. There's no reason to needlessly eliminate strategies that are beneficial to your wincon if they are perfectly within the rules, and should have been considered in the balancing of the game.
That's why the Koreans were so good at "cheese" early on in SC2, because while the westerners were being idealistic in their play, the Koreans played to win, and did. If mafia can't figure out how to combat this strategy within this setup, then they deserve to lose, because I have specifically talked about counterplay.
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On April 05 2013 00:13 Oatsmaster wrote: Contradiction CITY. (for me)
Why caller Yamato?
Why is him being hilarious, scummy? He's being disruptive to this discussion, just like you. You're just both doing it in different ways.
For you, at least, I expect a certain amount of repeating bad questions. Caller, I know little about, but that's the point of asking.
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On April 05 2013 00:17 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:15 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:13 Oatsmaster wrote: Contradiction CITY. (for me)
Why caller Yamato?
Why is him being hilarious, scummy? He's being disruptive to this discussion, just like you. You're just both doing it in different ways. For you, at least, I expect a certain amount of repeating bad questions. Caller, I know little about, but that's the point of asking. Why dont you just lynch yourself every game then? You disrupt the game too sometimes. Thats a really really really bad argument for me/Caller for being scum. You're missing the point, but thanks for giving your input.
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On April 05 2013 00:18 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:14 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:09 deconduo wrote:On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? Pretty much. This is not a new opinion, I've said the same in every PYP game I've played. On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? Good question actually. If you take the drafting part out of the equation, the game plays out pretty much the same as any insane type setup. Apart from that, you can start deducing roles from vanilla claims, flips and actions taken. Some roles will be pretty obvious once they are used, such as janitor, PoD etc. Once you know that a role is in the game you can start working out who has it, and if they've used it in a pro or anti-town manner. On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote: You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? You can try your hardest to win without taking advantage of what you consider to be faults in the system. As I said, if people prefer to play to win no matter what, I'll go along with them. I'm just stating my objection in the hopes that other people will feel the same was as I do. If cheesing every game gave you the best chance to win, would you still do it? You define it as cheesing. BC did not. There's no reason to needlessly eliminate strategies that are beneficial to your wincon if they are perfectly within the rules, and should have been considered in the balancing of the game. That's why the Koreans were so good at "cheese" early on in SC2, because while the westerners were being idealistic in their play, the Koreans played to win, and did. If mafia can't figure out how to combat this strategy within this setup, then they deserve to lose, because I have specifically talked about counterplay. I think you've misunderstood me. I'm objecting to it because its not fun, not because its unfair to the mafia. That's completely aside from the point I'm making. If I felt it was anti-town I would still be against it. Cheesing is good to throw in every once in a while to mix things up, but if you did it every game it would be boring as fuck. I feel the same way about the picking strats. Why not let everyone pick what they want for once, instead of forcing everyone to pick based on the position they get in the draft. Do you want mafia getting all of the ridiculous OP roles and auto-winning the game?
I don't. So I plan against that happening.
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On April 05 2013 00:22 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:20 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:18 deconduo wrote:On April 05 2013 00:14 yamato77 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:09 deconduo wrote:On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right? Pretty much. This is not a new opinion, I've said the same in every PYP game I've played. On April 04 2013 23:47 Oatsmaster wrote: What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game? Good question actually. If you take the drafting part out of the equation, the game plays out pretty much the same as any insane type setup. Apart from that, you can start deducing roles from vanilla claims, flips and actions taken. Some roles will be pretty obvious once they are used, such as janitor, PoD etc. Once you know that a role is in the game you can start working out who has it, and if they've used it in a pro or anti-town manner. On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote: You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? You can try your hardest to win without taking advantage of what you consider to be faults in the system. As I said, if people prefer to play to win no matter what, I'll go along with them. I'm just stating my objection in the hopes that other people will feel the same was as I do. If cheesing every game gave you the best chance to win, would you still do it? You define it as cheesing. BC did not. There's no reason to needlessly eliminate strategies that are beneficial to your wincon if they are perfectly within the rules, and should have been considered in the balancing of the game. That's why the Koreans were so good at "cheese" early on in SC2, because while the westerners were being idealistic in their play, the Koreans played to win, and did. If mafia can't figure out how to combat this strategy within this setup, then they deserve to lose, because I have specifically talked about counterplay. I think you've misunderstood me. I'm objecting to it because its not fun, not because its unfair to the mafia. That's completely aside from the point I'm making. If I felt it was anti-town I would still be against it. Cheesing is good to throw in every once in a while to mix things up, but if you did it every game it would be boring as fuck. I feel the same way about the picking strats. Why not let everyone pick what they want for once, instead of forcing everyone to pick based on the position they get in the draft. Do you want mafia getting all of the ridiculous OP roles and auto-winning the game? I don't. So I plan against that happening. That can only happen if all the mafia get the top positions in the draft. And even then, it wouldn't even be close to giving them an auto win. I'd still rather it not happen. If we, as town, don't attempt to coordinate something like this, we are essentially conceding mafia's coordination advantage immediately, which is a bad thing to do. I know there are people who play games to have fun, and I understand that, but please do play along, because I derive my fun in mafia from winning.
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ANYWAY, let's talk about Oats/Caller.
Pick one and call him mafia for a good reason. Gogo.
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On April 05 2013 00:36 Caller wrote:but yamato i thought you said Show nested quote +(your post) is retarded and an anti-town sentiment. While it isn't alignment indicative, it is worth me saying; ignore the fuck out of Caller. This discussion has real meaning, or you can be sure that the no-bullshit player in yamato wouldn't be having it. You are not mafia for having this discussion, and real reads can be gotten here.
so wait first im retarded and anti-town but not alignment indicative (if im anti-town but that doesn't point anything about my alignment, what the fuck could that mean? hmm?), then you tell people to ignore me, then you suddenly think im mafia. but only after oats is trying to scumdefend me. You've spent the entire early part of the game essentially trying to instigate debate and win credibility points through them. You claim that you're a no-bullshit person, then you start bullshitting. You claim I'm anti-town, but that doesn't mean I'm mafia. Then you about-face and claim that I am mafia. Then you start bullshitting and requesting bullshit that I am mafia. Given this, after receiving a few half-hearted answers, you'll claim that you just think I'm a stupid townie and that you were just scumhunting. ACTUAL FOS on yamato77. Thanks for ruining the point.
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Thought process here:
I don't think the things you guys are doing are alignment indicative, as you've actually noticed.
But if I ask for opinions, and watch what people do in response, it is easy to catch lazy mafia. They didn't reads the thread and jump at the chance to call one of you mafia for a bad reason,seemingly agreeing with me.
But yeah, whatever doubts I did have about your alignment, you erased. Good stuff.
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On April 05 2013 01:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Hai
rolepicking is stupid and doesn't work, thanks for spamming the thread.
So let's move on to why people are calling Caller scum when it's pretty clear he's not.
Anyone wanna take credit for that... Bueller? Bueller? Let's talk about this terrible post.
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M_Z, I want to talk to you about that post. Do you think I'm mafia? You were so occupied with shitting on town you forgot to actually make a real contribution about anything.
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On April 05 2013 01:32 Caller wrote: all i know is that i'm going to a pick a role that will let me kill a certain two scum day 1 Don't get too carried away. I think you have a decent reason to think I'm mafia, but there are plenty of reasons to not fall into the trap of confirmation bias.
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MZ, reply to me.
You can not hide.
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On April 05 2013 07:27 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: what do you want? Why are you not even reading the thread?
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So the first 24 hours of the game are almost over, and we are about to move into pick phase, so I'm going to drop some of my reads of this game so far on this thread. Hopefully we can use these to our advantage as town to look at who might be scum in the upcoming phase, who we think is town, and how this influences their pick decision. But first, I want to explain in detail why it is that I've been doing what I'm doing.
So usually I hate talking about setup, as most people know. I am a regular advocate of the idea that too much setup talk is bad for town. So what makes this game different? If you've been reading my posts, you should know. I see this time we've been given as evidence that we, as town, are supposed to try to influence picks in such a way. Also, since we cannot lynch anyone for yet another 74 hours or so, the best thing to get anything alignment indicative out of anyone right now is to formulate a pro-town plan for these picks and see who agrees/disagrees and why. As with Ver's analysis of XXX, townies make themselves extremely obvious when trying to contribute to such a plan. Sheer level of effort and thought put into such contributions lets me cross certain people off the list, whether they agree with my plan or not.
But what would mafia do? There really isn't one answer to this question, especially today. I have a few people that I have been mildly suspicious of for varying reasons at certain points, and for a few different reasons. I want to walk all of you through how I've thought about what mafia would or wouldn't do in certain situations and what actually happened.
One of the ways I, personally, have attempted to play mafia is as a disruptive agent. You disagree with town, try to throw them off, and generally argue against popular thread sentiment or pro-town ideas in an effort to shit up the thread. When applied to this game, three notable players have shown signs of this, and I reach my conclusions about their alignment differently.
The first is Oatsmaster. I have played in many games with him by now, so I am fairly familiar with his through process as a player, and his general tendency to be unintentionally disruptive even as town. At some point, I did openly question how far I was willing to let him slide because of this reputation, but it became clear to me through his sheer determination in talking about the game that he is fairly town, and not to be worried about. While he's often wrong as town, he is not the type of mafia player to continually put himself out in the open in such a way as he has now.
Caller was another that I questioned the motives of. His initial play seemed trollish and generally disruptive to town, while not offering much in the way of actual contribution. Hilariously enough, it is his response to me considering the possibility that he is scum that leads me to believe he is actually town. He seems interested enough in finding mafia that I feel as if he is probably telling the truth when he says he thinks setup talk is a waste of time. No reason to consider him a legitimate threat at the moment.
One player that I began thinking was mafia from their first post and have continued to think so is Meapak_Ziphh.
On April 05 2013 01:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Hai
rolepicking is stupid and doesn't work, thanks for spamming the thread.
So let's move on to why people are calling Caller scum when it's pretty clear he's not.
Anyone wanna take credit for that... Bueller? Bueller?
I called this post out earlier, but I want to reiterate, this is a terrible post. He INDIRECTLY calls me mafia for attacking Caller, but never actually mentions my name. He's not even interested in pursuing any clear suspicions, he's just needlessly shitting up the thread with unnecessarily negative opinions about me, which is clearly an attempt to stifle my influence on the town. Also of note is that he never follows this up, despite me trying to give him a chance to do so. Observe:
On April 05 2013 06:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Why Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw yes Gonzaw would you mind telling me what you think of oats, artanis, sharrant, and decondou? Would like to hear someone else's thoughts.
On April 05 2013 07:27 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: what do you want?
For someone who hates "spamming" as he supposedly wants us to believe, these are two posts that are completely useless. He has failed to give any real opinions about the game at all so far, and we're already 24 hours in. As I pointed out in my previous post, it is also evidence that he's not even reading the thread, as I specifically asked him to explain his first post in a more coherent manner, yet he failed.
Meapak seems like classic lazy scum. He's not interested in any even remotely townlike, and his general posting style is shitty and hypocritical. I would lynch him right now if I had the chance. But he's only one scum, and being disruptive is only one way to play mafia.
Another heuristic to look at during these early phases is who seems disinterested with town's plans, and whose general contributions so far look comparatively bad.
On April 04 2013 17:35 VisceraEyes wrote: I like yamato's idea. Here's why. Firstly, I don't know about anyone else, but I think I can come up with at least 2 or 3 good solid townreads by the time the picking phase rolls around. And if I really put my mind to it, I could definitely come up with 5. No big deal. Secondly, even if I'm wrong about my townreads and we end up giving the role in question to a scummer, they won't be able to use the power even if they want to (presuming it's something we'll notice like a Janitor or Vote-Rigger, being the roles I'd be most concerned with.)
The only concerns I have:
1) There are logistic concerns regarding who the "chosen" even are - I don't think we have time for an "election" or anything, plus there's no guarantee that everyone will even be around to give their opinion. This isn't a normal day phase, we have less than 24 hours.
2) Would it not be more beneficial to have our super townie players pick preservation roles? Denying mafia looks good on paper, but it's like Sherlock said we can't deny them all the mafia-favoring roles.
Oh, VE. For someone so normally spammy and excited to play the game, this is your sole contribution, and it is only agreeing with me, and restating things people has already brought up before. I am willing to give you time, oh masterful VE, but only so much. Do something.
On April 04 2013 21:40 Palmar wrote: Morning, do I have to read the planning phase?
Palmar's general posting is something like this. Perhaps I am reading TOO much into this, but if town Palmar didn't give a fuck, would he care enough to actually post it in the thread? It seems like he feels that it's necessary to explain his lack of interest, multiple times. Similar to VE, I am willing to give him some time, but I'M WATCHING.
On April 05 2013 03:19 Bill Murray wrote: 1. CALLER PLZ ME deconduo Palmar raynpelikoneet visceraeyes vivax gonzaw austinmcc sinani206 strongandbig meapak_ziphh artanis[xp] sharrant sn0_man keirathi Obviousone geript restraining order shelvocke yamato77 mocsta 23. Oatmaster
This post is bad and BM should feel bad. He offers no real analysis on any of these players. It seems like he's calling Caller town just to agree with him, which is concerning this early on in the game. I don't feel like a town player would come in and post like this, but Bill Murray has a reputation for being a wildcard, so I'm not 100% sure that it's alignment indicative. Again, with low-contributors, it is hard to define when it becomes "mafia motivated' disinterest or incapability, but it is worthy to note that while he has posted something, it was... not a positive indicator on the alignment scale.
So that's about all I have out of this game so far besides a bunch of townreads with varying degrees of certainty. Hopefully we can get the few I think are mafia out of the potential candidates for power roles.
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Mocsta, would you walk me through some of the things about Austin's play this game that are similar to Personality 2?
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I went 11,11
wtf how am I bottom
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My sent box shows nothing sent to BC
LOL, WTF
I sent two PMs with the numbers, I remember doing it!
FUCK!
aslftghljkhergkjrhesthrewstyh
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lol, wtf
I'm going to RNG between a few roles to check, since I'm last.
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Justify your suspicion on Artanis.
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Rayn, you need to chill it with the spamming, bro. I don't usually say this, but it's getting out of hand.
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Gonzaw, what do you make of MZ basically trolling the thread and saying very little about anything?
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On April 05 2013 13:33 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 21:17 yamato77 wrote: If we do have town reads we trust, and they are picking late in the order, it might be a good idea to use them to check for these roles. Mr. Yam, just wanted to remind you of this. I agreed pre-draft. BUT... Now that we are post-draft; I am not sure how useful this is anymore. Lets say you try and confirm CPR; & we know its in play because you are VT. What then? Its not like you can force a roleclaim If scum is CPR they will deny it. If town is CPR they may deny it. Heck, someone might fake claim it. Perhaps its best to just attempt for an "unpopular' role that you think you can play to its strengths? The # of roles >>> the # of players. Half the point is trying, but yeah, you're right.
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I have a specific role in mind for myself, that made me join this game.
I'll give it a shot and see if I get it.
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sno
what do you plan with that first pick
tell the town
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On April 05 2013 14:58 geript wrote: Sorry missed that question. The more I play the less full 180's seems like 'sure thing scum tells' to me; as a matter of fact, IIRC 90% of the 180's in the last game were done by town. I'd say it's suspicious and worth looking into him more, but there was a quote from the VE/BH mason log that it reminds me of it boiled down to something like "I don't want to push Geript into a corner because the more we do that the likelier he is to look like scum and prevent us from being able to avoid a mislynch. Instead I'd rather try and interact with him on his scumreads etc." I think VE's strategy is a very good one. I think it's suspicious but not to the point that it's a full scum tell for me. I'd much rather try and interact with him in a way to not lose him in case he is town. And then he got a bullshit ridiculous red check on you, and BH went full-retard after saying that in the thread.
<3 postpodcast. That story was HILARIOUS.
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Also, I'm drunk
AMA
This thread is now reddit
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Rayn is probably town. He's an idiot at times, but eh. I don't think he'd be so spammy and carefree as scum.
Vivax' town read of him is not that odd. What is odd about Vivax is that he's not screaming at someone for being scum yet.
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Keir, I don't think Rayn is worth pursuing at the moment. I will reread when sober, but I doubt my opinion will change.
In teh mean time, while I am asleep due to copious amounts of whiskey, please do look at Meapak and give a thought on his alignment.
I encourage all of town to do this, actually, because I'm gonna push for his lynch D1.
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On April 06 2013 02:21 Palmar wrote: Are people seriously discussing killing people who use KP on townies?
I might just pick a KP role and instalkill someone for the hell of it. I thought you weren't reading the thread, Palmy?
Why so scum, bro?
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I'm actually starting to agree with you on Vivax, Oats.
And I also like Caller's pursuit of Keirathi, I agree with a lot of the stuff he's saying.
I do want to put a gun to sinani's head, because in RTP, when I was scum with him, his filter early on was very similar to this one.
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Sinani being lynchbait does not mean he gets a free pass to lurk and post meaningless posts, gonzaw.
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I told you why I want to kill him, why do you seem resistant? Is there some redeeming quality to Meapak that makes him not the best choice for lynch tomorrow?
For one, OO has posted about 3x as much stuff as MZ so far.
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On April 06 2013 03:44 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:40 yamato77 wrote: I told you why I want to kill him, why do you seem resistant? Is there some redeeming quality to Meapak that makes him not the best choice for lynch tomorrow?
For one, OO has posted about 3x as much stuff as MZ so far. I liked this post from his: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:51 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 10:10 gonzaw wrote:On April 05 2013 06:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: 3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. Why On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw yes Gonzaw would you mind telling me what you think of oats, artanis, sharrant, and decondou? Would like to hear someone else's thoughts. Yo how about YOU tell me what you think of them? You can't force the wise man to do your bidding, he forces you to do his, and then enlightens you or punishes you accordingly I have to agree with yamato on Oats. Makes little sense for scum Oats to "intentionally disrupt" town like this in the drafting phase for no reason (if he's scum), rather than doing so when it matters to them: The Day phase. No reason to call him scum right now, wait until the game actually "matters" to state so. So you 5 guys are you sending the 1-5 draft choices? If so it may be better to claim so you don't clash between each other, and so you can convince other people not to take those as well (I already changed my number). I guess it's too late though, meh. I initially had a pretty bad feeling about oats, however he's just been too loud for me to think he's scum at this point. I'm rather suspicious of artanis, I actually wanted an opinion on sharrant because I have him as a complete null, and decondou was a red herring which I threw out on a whim. In hindsight you'd be too smart to go for it as scum anyway currently I have rayn as probable town since I've learned that the most annoying people tend to be town. That being said, I also really don't think RO is scummy. Also for the record, I'm not trying to force a wise man to do my bidding, just wanna check in with someone who completely played me before :D I like some of his reactions and interactions with other players. He seems to not "try" (i.e post giant walls of text discussing shit), but it does feel he cares when he posts, which I think he wouldn't at this stage as scum (and would play more like Palmar/VE/maybe decuondo for now). ObviousOne has passed the "Fluff and Filler!" 101 class with honors, and seems to continue to excel in the course Example of fluff: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=32#628Example of out of place attempt to scumhunt which seems "obviously" pointless pressure the more you think about it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=35#695 That's literally the only post in his filter where he even tries to talk about reads and yet it amounts to nothing more than a list post.
IDK, I guess some people are literally not trying this game at all. OO is not worth going after, though.
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Geript is obviously not mafia if you've been reading the game at all.
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On April 06 2013 09:17 Bill Murray wrote: I want to pick a defensive role, since mafia are unlikely to pick them, but if I overlap with someone, I'll be a townie ;/ Just pick one. If you don't get it, at least you can be sure someone was smart enough to pick it already.
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There's no good reason to think Caller is mafia right now, either.
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I will say, I want to see more from this VE/RO exchange.
I feel like at least one is mafia.
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The only argument there is, if he's town, why did scum LET him get first pick, when anyone could have blocked him and still had a reasonable chance to be high in the picks.
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I'll post when I damn well feel like it.
Right now there is only so much to achieve.
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The correct analysis of the BM/Palmar situation is that BM is essentially alignment-null from his current posting, given that his spamminess and lack of explanation for his reads could come from scum or town, and only a real look into his meta could define the difference.
Palmar's analysis is a point against Palmar, because while he attempts to include meta, it is half-assed and not representative of both BM's town and scum games. Palmar lacks effort in this game, as I've said before, but it making a conscious effort to post SOMETHING, but the stuff he is posting is not meaningful at all. It only serves to give the appearance that he's active and interested, which I don't think town Palmar would even care to appear.
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Palmar's comment on VE, even if VE is scum, is also no reason to think him town. It's a passing comment made that follows thread sentiment. In no way is Palmar taking that read of VE seriously.
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On April 07 2013 02:15 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 02:13 yamato77 wrote: The correct analysis of the BM/Palmar situation is that BM is essentially alignment-null from his current posting, given that his spamminess and lack of explanation for his reads could come from scum or town, and only a real look into his meta could define the difference.
Palmar's analysis is a point against Palmar, because while he attempts to include meta, it is half-assed and not representative of both BM's town and scum games. Palmar lacks effort in this game, as I've said before, but it making a conscious effort to post SOMETHING, but the stuff he is posting is not meaningful at all. It only serves to give the appearance that he's active and interested, which I don't think town Palmar would even care to appear. I hate when people piggyback my scumread but dont credit me. I HATE IT. 1) Stop spamming. You're capable of playing better than this, so do it.
2) I'm not reading your posts.
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Vivax, what do you think of people's accusations that you are mafia?
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I wanna kill Palmar.
##Vote Palmar
Anyone who disagrees with me is scum.
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Palmar is also putting up a front.
He wants you to believe he doesn't care and is reading the game, but is obviously making an effort to post, even if his posts say absolutely nothing.
Town Palmar trolls or scumhunts. This Palmar is doing neither. Let's kill him.
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Does town Palmar try to look involved at all if he doesn't care about the game?
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He spams
I'm avoiding talking about the spammers right now since we have so many.
Not good lynches, IMO.
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On April 07 2013 12:22 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 12:15 yamato77 wrote: Does town Palmar try to look involved at all if he doesn't care about the game? Things to look into before voting him on that basis! Especially whether he was active in pre-games of past PYPs! You fail to understand what I'm saying.
Town Palmar doesn't give fucks, sure, but he doesn't make a point of telling the thread multiple times that he doesn't give a fuck.
He's better than any of you guys' lynchbait options.
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You'll impress me with this rayn thing if you manage to show how it's similar to his scum games.
As of right now, I'm just putting him in an "ignore" category. I don't feel like his random spam and stupid comments are alignment indicative.
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On April 07 2013 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Palmar never had a plan. He lied to make people talk and that's alignment null. Palmar bad lynch today. I must have missed this.
What did Palmar lie about, exactly?
I'm talking about the cognitive dissonance between what he says and what he's doing.
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He's pushing VE.
How do you feel about VE?
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Can you explain your townread on VE, Bill?
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I've been watching you, sinani, and that post there is wishy-washy as fuck.
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Going to bed.
When I wake up tomorrow, I'm taking a look at this list of people:
VE PALMAR SINANI MEAPAK AUSTIN
One of them will get lynched.
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On April 07 2013 15:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:13 yamato77 wrote: Going to bed.
When I wake up tomorrow, I'm taking a look at this list of people:
VE PALMAR SINANI MEAPAK AUSTIN
One of them will get lynched. You should probably "take a look" at the whole game while you're at it since only sinani even closely resembles a decent lynch. You are definitely a good lynch candidate.
Anyway, I have things to attend to early on today. Later, I'll be in the thread. From skimming, I'll say that I now trust gonzaw more and agree with his reasonable Artanis case.
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I believe I've made my thoughts as clear as I care to make them at the moment.
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Let's lynch Artanis. The fact that the lynch has met resistance and people are arguing about other cases that are "scummier" is a good thing. I love information. OO's analysis of his meta is decent, and coupled with gonzaw's case, I could see Artanus as scum.
As for who to vig, it should obviously be sinani. If you read his filter, he posts opportunistically, and generally has little to say. One post in particular I called out as being especially horrible, the one where he gives his "thoughts" on the lynch candidates and is null on three out of four. I was scum with him in Red Team's Prize, and he's acting similar to that game, here his posting in the thread is quiet and not forceful. His "push" of BM as a vig shot is also terrible, because I actually have him down as likely town.
As for myself, since people seem to think I need to contribute more, meh. I gave the game the start I wanted and I have some decent town reads out of that, so as far as continuing a high level of activity, I don't feel that it's necessary. I'm doing my own scum hunting, and I make myself known throughout the day on where I'm at. If I drop off the face of the planet, feel free to shoot/lynch me, but I'm not going to be hyperactive in these games anymore.
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People shat all over the Palmar read. I've learned to realize when I'm being overly suspicious.
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Gonzaw, what do you think about killing sinani?
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Now we definitely kill the Artanis.
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It doesn't matter what killed him, it matters why.
Gonzaw was killed because he was obviously town and people were forming around him. What did he advocate? Killing artanis. Let's murder him.
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On April 08 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:13 yamato77 wrote: It doesn't matter what killed him, it matters why.
Gonzaw was killed because he was obviously town and people were forming around him. What did he advocate? Killing artanis. Let's murder him. Sentiment is fine.. but i need to extend the thoughts as per: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote: Now anways, lets get this show back on track.
Gonzaw was a good scum hit; the timing is what is interesting.
Are they trying to force us onto VE, because it happened when we were talking about him?
hmmm.. for now, i want to maintain the legacy Gonzaw started.
We keep the lynch on Artanis[Xp] The posts identifying Gonzaw as "jack" were from ~8hrs ago. i.e. He could have been killed anytime between 8hrs ago, and just before the cycle finished. If they wanted to kill him due to the artanis case.. well... its odd they waited so long. and I choose not to use timezone as a reason for delay. The thread topic at the time was: Geript/VE NRA item. Which was potentially juicy enough to get a wagon off Artanis Im saying this all this, because if Artanis (who we are lynching) flips red.. im inclined to think VE is town. 1) You don't know when the shot was sent.
2) Artanis being mafia does not, in any way, exonerate VE.
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So people that look terrible to me right now:
Sinani VE Artanis MZ
I'm downgrading Palmar to simply a null read. He doesn't care about looking town, and him posting isn't indicative of anything. I'd shoot/check him.
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I don't feel like there's much of a difference between Artanis and VE
Oats is someone I want to look at, too. Gonna look at LIX and see what's up with his mafia game. I have a bad habit of not paying attention to him.
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Stop talking about this dumb shit, Mocsta.
What's your read on Oats?
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On April 08 2013 14:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 14:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 13:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: we can wifom what scum want us to think by the gonzaw kill from here till kingdom come but we won't get anywhere. Ultimately we need to stick with artanis as he has been consistently scummy and pushed by a now confirmed townie.
@Yamato. I'm really tired with you calling me scum and never backing it up, come up with some reasons or shut up. Read on Yam pls. Town, null, scum? He's an idiot for one, right now I have a lot of people (Artanis, Shevlocke, Vivax, Sharrant, VE etc.) who I care more about than yamato. He's been largely afk after an active start. I hate using this because I feel like it's a cop out but I'm just gonna put him as null and come back to it when it actually matters. I have you as scum because you're commenting on me calling you scum a million times and yet your contributions to anything in the thread are shallow at best.
Do something.
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Shooting gonzaw does not "guarantee" anything, except the death of a town player.
You seem to realize that I think we should look at who Gonzaw wanted dead. Why is that something worth questioning? Don't you think it's certainly possible that Gonzaw was killed precisely because people were forming around him, and he was on the right track? Isn't that how mafia usually operate?
Furthermore, do you think I'm mafia? Because if you don't, where are you going with this? Do honest analysis of Artanis. Why do you suddenly doubt that he's a good lynch? The reason you give for unvoting him is a bunch of inconclusive WIFOM. It seems to me like you're attempting to throw enough doubt on me to get people off of Artanis because of how much I want to see him dead.
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On April 08 2013 16:13 Shelvocke wrote:VE, what's your first reaction when you read these posts? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 13:13 yamato77 wrote: It doesn't matter what killed him, it matters why.
Gonzaw was killed because he was obviously town and people were forming around him. What did he advocate? Killing artanis. Let's murder him. And why the fuck are you asking VE for his opinion of these posts when you think he's mafia?
Where did that VE read go, by the way?
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On April 08 2013 16:57 Shelvocke wrote: I'm asking VE because I want to hear from him and because he has personal experience with this kind of thing.
Did you shoot gonzaw, yamato? No...?
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Any of Artanis/VE/Sinani will do as a lynch today, but gonzaw being shot does lend a certain weight to the Artanis lynch that I like.
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On April 08 2013 17:18 Shelvocke wrote: I think yamato shot gonzaw. I can't prove it, but it's the explanation that makes best sense to me right now going by people's reactions. I'm not entirely sure if he's the kind of person who would do that as town, but just skimming through the last normalish town game of his (Town Aint Big Mafia), I think it's entirely possible. Going to sleep on this, but that's where I'm at right now. If I shot Gonzaw, you would know.
And no, I wouldn't do that as town. I shoot lurky/trollish people. Vig shots are for unreadables.
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The death of Gonzaw doesn't inherently guarantee anything. It does make you a better lynch, though, if one takes the time to consider how mafia think at a basic level; survival. Killing gonzaw could definitely take the steam out of your lynch, if someone like me doesn't keep it alive.
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The timing is a moot point, because with an AFK host in BC, the shot could have been sent at any point.
I'll give you that it seems like an assassin kill, more than anything else, but you can't know for sure.
You think it gives leverage to pushing your lynch, but that completely depends on general thread sentiment. What do you think was more likely, considering he was the most active person in pushing your lynch and was also fairly rigid in his belief? Do you think the wagon falling apart and town losing direction was more likely, or do you think me coming in and reaffirming the strength of the lynch is more likely? I have openly admitted that I was content not taking the lead, so why would mafia think that at all?
To some extent, this is WIFOM on the kill, yes, but I'm fairly certain that keeping the lynch headed your way is a good thing. Mafia wanted to lead town astray by killing Gonzaw, but I'm not going to let it happen.
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Fine, let's talk about something else.
What's your read on Sinani?
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So aside from Sinani, who else would you lynch today?
Has anything changed from earlier, with Shelvocke and VE being on your radar?
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Well, aside from Rayn, it's rather unsettling how much you seem to agree with me.
I may want to take this lynch in a different direction, and Sinani seems like a good one.
BRB, case.
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On April 08 2013 06:46 sinani206 wrote: gonzaw are you going to claim exactly what your role is? This post alone is enough for me, actually.
##Vote Sinani
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I don't trust you, Moc, so it's okay, I don't really care what you think.
Sinani is a better lynch. Less reason to think he's town.
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A lot of the vets this game are good vig targets, IMO
Palmar, VE, BM
Almost none of them are particularly town, or trying to be readable.
Lynch targets, though, are more complicated. Sinani is a good lynch because it should be relatively easy to get people to realize that he's mafia.
If people need convincing, just give a look through his mafia filter from RTP, where he makes all kinds of passing comments, and very little in the way of honest analysis. Strikingly similar.
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On April 08 2013 18:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 18:25 yamato77 wrote: I don't trust you, Moc, so it's okay, I don't really care what you think.
Sinani is a better lynch. Less reason to think he's town. no1 is going to sheep u whilst im here. that im certain of. after all, your the guy that started off strong and then decided to hide under the guise of.. doing my own scum hunting. so far all im reading is u joining ya scum reads scum target.. after he gave a summary of someone elses read. if this is the new yam 2.0; i am thoroughly not impressed; not that u care of course. Are you sure you're not mafia? Just a few minutes ago, when I was agreeing with you, you said this:
On April 08 2013 17:56 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 08 2013 17:48 Mocsta wrote: What's ya point artanis.
Your conclusion is ur death won't be prevented. So why argue whether yam thinks u sscummier post gonzaw.
Sounds to me like u trying to shit up the thread Because I think it's a bullshit reason and I'm calling people out for voting on me for bullshit reasons. Are you not interested in people jumping on my bandwagon, or is anyone that votes me automatically town? No. But yam is town regardless of voting u. Frankly I'm surprised u aren't reacting to bill Murray. That was a scummy as fuck vote if I seen one. Yet here u antagonise a player u know will bite back. Henceforth: shitting up the thread
Lol, that's bad.
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This makes me look like an idiot
Eh, whatever, good job town. Looks like we were arguing between multiple mafia members today.
Sinani is still most likely scum, IMO. Shelvocke needs a looking at, too.
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ATTN: TOWN KP (specifically the guy that took compulsive justice vigi)
SHOOT SINANI/SHELVOCKE TONIGHT
With NRA dead, mafia have almost no recourse if you shoot them, unless they stole a protective role.
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Look at how Shelvocke came in and unvoted Artanis
Does that seem natural to you as a town player?
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On April 08 2013 16:05 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 09:36 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 08:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 08:23 Shelvocke wrote:
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia. Elaborate please? Do you think I was chasing you for funsies the other day? I dont think you scum anymore.. i just think your bad town But conviction was there, and I think Shevlocke comment was fair (regarding me at least) No. I want to know why Shelvocke thinks i'm town. Read my filter: + Show Spoiler +On April 07 2013 15:33 Shelvocke wrote:I don't really think rayn is mafia. His play does look different from those town quotes you had, but it doesn't look like that mafia game either. The only part of that game where he just suddenly jumps is the part where he votes for Krefla and even then he has a reason because Krefla just came in right before the deadline. The fact that he seems a lot more impulsive in this game than he has been before is something that points to him being town. I feel he would be a lot more careful and safe as mafia. The plan switch looks kind of strange, but his overall attitude makes him more likely town. On April 07 2013 15:52 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 07 2013 15:39 Shelvocke wrote: What do you mean? He seems to jump around based on what's going on in the thread. Thank you. so impulsive is then defined as: in response to others; rather than in creating new ideas. I dont see what is townie about that. Scum can be equally impulsive in regards to thread sentiment. However, I dont particularly care about the action itself: do you think his motives for "jumping around" is founded upon processing new information to update the conclusion? I get what you're saying, but I've never seen a new mafia player be so crazy. I don't really understand the reasons for some of the stuff he does but it seems to me that he sees one post and then just makes up his mind based on that. Usually new mafia are much more safe and concerned about their appearance. It's possible he's some kind of mafia gosu but frankly that's not the impression I get from him. Something about this situation really strikes me the wrong way. There was still plenty of time left in the day and an Artanis lynch was nowhere certain. Like shooting gonzaw pretty much guarantees an Artanis lynch and I can't think of a good reason for mafia to do that if Artanis is mafia. I'm rereading the thread right now. Not entirely sure who to kill right now, but it's not Artanis. ##Unvote For reference.
If you go back and look in context, this is also when Artanis comes in and argues with me over much the same material.
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On April 09 2013 04:48 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 04:47 yamato77 wrote: Look at how Shelvocke came in and unvoted Artanis
Does that seem natural to you as a town player? U scum bro? It certainly could look that way, but no, I'm not.
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If MZ is mafia, my e-peen will grow approximate 100 feet.
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Sinani is not confirmed town
that analysis is terrible.
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I guarantee scum bussed Artanis.
Why is it so hard to believe he bussed as well?
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Moc, if you're town, I'm disappointed in you.
That analysis is really bad.
Your'e calling sinani "confirmed town" because you don't think a scum would call another scum mafia and then NOT agree to lynch him?
Come on, dude.
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I'm putting zero stock in your "association" cases.
No, I won't talk about them.
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the pressure Artanis put on him was very high and meets the actual definition of a bus
This is also patently false. He refused to vote him, even after calling him scum.
That is not a full bus.
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On April 09 2013 12:10 Shelvocke wrote: Hey Keirathi. I'm not going to ask you again - why were you trying to say I could be the NRA member? Why did you say that I shot gonzaw?
Still have yet to justify that.
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On April 09 2013 12:13 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 12:05 yamato77 wrote: I'm putting zero stock in your "association" cases.
No, I won't talk about them. Its a direct comment from Artanis regarding somebody. You are the tunneled one. Nothing in your game has changed - unfortunately. You're mafia.
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On April 09 2013 12:16 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 12:13 yamato77 wrote:On April 09 2013 12:10 Shelvocke wrote: Hey Keirathi. I'm not going to ask you again - why were you trying to say I could be the NRA member? Why did you say that I shot gonzaw? Still have yet to justify that. Because you didn't have any uncertainty after the shot, you just went straight for saying this definitely means we need to kill artanis. I guess I should have listened to myself, huh?
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On April 09 2013 12:22 Shelvocke wrote:You know what your reaction reminded me of yamato? It reminded me of this: Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 02:03 VisceraEyes wrote: What in the...was that shot not claimed AGAIN? Scum must really be getting desperate.
Was that a blue flip? It looked like it, but everything has been colored blue so I wanted to make sure...
I'm down with a Wiggles lynch guys. BC died trying to get Wiggles lynched, and I think we should oblige him.
##Vote: Wiggles Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:54 VisceraEyes wrote: I killed BC. Would scum tell you that? That's not a good comparison, primarily because I didn't shoot gonzaw.
And I bet Wiggles was town that game.
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You did this exact sort of thing in Personality where you tried to pis me off.
I'm on to you.
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Do not suddenly ignore Sinani, for the love of fucking god.
It's so insanely stupid to cross someone out who is OBJECTIVELY SCUMMY just because a scum you lynched said he would lynch him, but never even fucking voted him.
Just don't do it.
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My list is similar:
Sinani Bill Palmar Meapak Sno Shelvocke Vivax
3 of those are mafia.
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On April 09 2013 14:21 Bill Murray wrote: why the fuck are people listing me as mafia? are you all forgetting that I was on the Artanis wagon? Check my meta, I don't EVER bus. Because you spammed a lot early and since, you've been AFK.
Your vote on the artanis wagon is also the weakest thing of all time.
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Oh, yeah, and Oats
I kinda wanna kill that guy too.
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On April 09 2013 16:01 sinani206 wrote: Lists are useless.
This is how I see it. We just got 2 scum killed day 1; we're good.
I think that after this, scum is going to be hiding. The way it looks to me is it's going to be near impossible to find any scum before night actions flip over.
Don't really have anything else to say at the moment.
Pre-edit: Oats is kinda flying under the radar, but that's all I have atm. CONFIRMED TOWN RIGHT HERE
YYYYYEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
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On April 09 2013 17:19 Palmar wrote: lol yamato I'm basically confirmed town it's really scummy to push me now. You're good enough to bus at the right time.
Don't act like you've been more involved in this game than you have, Palmar.
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On April 09 2013 18:02 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 17:48 yamato77 wrote:On April 09 2013 17:19 Palmar wrote: lol yamato I'm basically confirmed town it's really scummy to push me now. You're good enough to bus at the right time. Don't act like you've been more involved in this game than you have, Palmar. au contraire, I'm acting like I've been less involved in this game than I have. Or do you just want me to believe you're more involved than you appear?
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If I die, kill Mocsta tomorrow.
If I don't, I will kill him tomorrow.
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On April 10 2013 10:31 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 10:25 yamato77 wrote: If I die, kill Mocsta tomorrow.
If I don't, I will kill him tomorrow. Wanna give any reasons? If I live, maybe I'll be motivated enough to make a case.
If I die, just trust me.
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That kind of posting is part of it.
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Should we lynch sinani or Meapak?
Hmm.....
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On April 10 2013 12:11 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:11 yamato77 wrote: Should we lynch sinani or Meapak?
Hmm..... Why not both? Its double lynch day. HOLY FUCK YES
GG scum, you lose today.
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On April 10 2013 12:14 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 12:13 yamato77 wrote:On April 10 2013 12:11 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 10 2013 12:11 yamato77 wrote: Should we lynch sinani or Meapak?
Hmm..... Why not both? Its double lynch day. HOLY FUCK YES GG scum, you lose today. dont lynch meapak Give me one good reason.
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On April 10 2013 12:18 sinani206 wrote: I want to wait to see what his defense is when he comes back. No thanks.
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He better get to convincing me that he's town, because I no longer feel that it's possible.
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On April 10 2013 12:32 Bill Murray wrote: Why is everyone mad I killed Caller? He was quite likely scum. No.
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I'll be in the thread with my cases when this shitstorm blows over tomorrow.
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Based on flavor, Rayn is the mafia out of the group if people that died last night.
I'd also be willing to bet that there's still a town justice vig alive, as I don't think Palmar picked that role.
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On April 09 2013 04:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Visceraeyes as Jimmy Darmody the mafia nra member
On April 10 2013 11:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote: raynpelikoneet as Angel Darmody
Quick Wiki reference shows that she's his wife in the show. Would they be opposite alignments?
Flavor supports everyone else being town, somehow.
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It's not teh best idea, but it's better than trying to rely on nullish reads that I had on Deconduo and Rayn
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Do you think Rayn or Palmar picked compulsive justice vigi?
If not, I'm 100% certain a scum was shot last night.
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On April 10 2013 16:51 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 16:49 yamato77 wrote: Do you think Rayn or Palmar picked compulsive justice vigi?
If not, I'm 100% certain a scum was shot last night. No, I don't think either of them did. Why are you so certain, though? Because otherwise, the vigi would have killed himself?
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The main dude is a crime boss
Those people I highlighted were his enemies in the show.
I'm just saying, it's something to go on about their alignment when we have almost nothing.
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It should be pretty obvious that I tried to pick Justice Vigi and failed.
As for who I want to lynch, I feel good about my choices. You guys are fucking around a lot and I'm not interested in reading a bunch of bullshit posts ATM so forgive me if something else happened.
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I don't like either of those people, so no, I won't reconsider.
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On April 11 2013 04:07 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 04:03 yamato77 wrote: I don't like either of those people, so no, I won't reconsider. Are you of the opinion that M_Z has successfully misled both of them or are you of the opinion that one or both of them are also scum? It could be either of those options, honestly, but I don't really care which.
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What do you think is more likely, that all three of those null-reads are confirmed town to each other, or that one or two of them managed to fool the other(s) into believing that they're town?
Just reading some of the claim posts makes me doubt the "confirmed-ness" of this whole ordeal.
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How are you confirmed town to each other, exactly?
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On April 11 2013 04:37 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 04:35 yamato77 wrote: How are you confirmed town to each other, exactly? I can do this amazing new technique called "reading people". You might want to give it a spin one day! And which role creates this "recruiting mason" thing you're talking about, again?
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Couldn't find it, for some reason.
Anyway, yeah, there's no reason to believe that these people are necessarily right about their reads on each other.
Is it too much to ask for logs?
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Too bad, I guess M_Z dies.
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On April 11 2013 04:50 Sn0_Man wrote:He really doesn't have THAT many votes right now does he? I'm lazy. Need a votecount. I think he has 2 votes
Sinani is leading with a bunch of votes. 5+
No one else seems particularly consolidated upon.
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On April 11 2013 04:51 geript wrote:Well since you're so sure he's town, then I'll just go ahead and vote for you instead. If it is Dandel Ion, as it appears, just ignore him and kill scum.
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On April 11 2013 05:14 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 05:09 Sn0_Man wrote:Hmm, so anybody with a Role (no alignment necessary) check may wish to use it on BM tonight for confirmation. (Justice vig = town, not JV = scum) Beyond that, it's possible he got his role stolen by the guy who prevents use the night he steals, but BM was like 20th pick so no thief in their right mind targets him. Plus I thought BM would be informed of this and would share it . We know that SOMEONE took the justice vigi role, or yamato is lying and taking a sizeable risk, given that he's got to claim early. BM probably not a good check based on that, plus, justice vigi is a role that confirms himself. Janitor is gone, so either a mafia member dies EVERY night phase, or the justice vigi dies. If you don't see either of those things happen, there is no justice vigi, and yamato is lying and gets lynched. Because the role is compulsive and has a confirmable outcome, there's no need to check whoever claims it. The claim gets verified by the flips in the case of that role. Unless the target is both mafia and protected, in which case no one dies.
Would be pretty troll, though.
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On April 11 2013 10:19 strongandbig wrote: Dandelion why isn't yammo on your carpet bomb list? I can't really argue with my being on it ATM, but given that I'm town and also pretty sure I'm one of the townier people on the list I'm interested in ringing out why you shove who you chose.
Kill it with FIRE.
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I still kinda want to kill sinani just to confirm this check.
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I do like geript's analysis of Vivax' meta, to an extent.
If people are really opposed to killing sinani because of this check, Vivax is a good substitute.
M_Z is non-negotiable. I don't care how much these idiots believe in their reads.
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I definitely think we have to kill M_Z today, simply because the risk of him being alive tomorrow as mafia is too high.
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Plus he's been scummy all fucking game, from post one.
You know, like I keep telling all of you.
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I don't like killing OO.
He has been very uninvolved compared to Red Team's Prize, though.
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That's a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad post.
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Both of those posts by both of those guys read extremely constructed and not at all moving toward any sort of town objective.
They both feel like PR posts.
Gonna slap my votes and go to bed.
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Moc, I don't have time to go looking, so can you tell me why you chose to shoot deconduo?
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On April 11 2013 23:40 yamato77 wrote: Moc, I don't have time to go looking, so can you tell me why you chose to shoot deconduo? I looked myself. I'll have to sit on that one.
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I kinda think we should Lynch BM unless he claims.
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Don't waste your vote or I will policy lynch you.
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For the record, the only reason I don't want to lynch you right now is because you were total lynchbait as town in one if my scum games.
Take a fucking stance or get lynched.
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SnB, who you wanna lynch?
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I have the same doubts about Mocsta as you, Austin.
The one thing I find to make me doubt him being mafia is his suspicion on deconduo and the resulting shot, but even that has a plausible scum motivation in getting off the janitor and giving Mocsta some decent town cred for shooting a guy town would have lynched anyway.
Not to sound too impulsive, but if you want to shoot, make it between him and BM. One of them is almost certainly mafia, I feel, if not both.
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On April 12 2013 02:39 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 02:34 yamato77 wrote: Not to sound too impulsive, but if you want to shoot, make it between him and BM. One of them is almost certainly mafia, I feel, if not both. What the actual fuck? How can BM be scum if he picked JV? Which you also supposedly picked, but got VT? If he flips scum, you 100% die tomorrow for lying. How the fuck do I know what he picked?
I do have a theory that would implicate one or the other, but that would require them both cooperating with the role-claim plan that's not happening.
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Austin, talk to me
What makes you doubt your Mocsta read?
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On April 11 2013 15:31 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I am not dead?
Shevlocke that was a dickish thing to do.
Ok so here's the story, I have really no motivation to defend myself atm for rather obvious reasons. In the mason group we had discussed austin a fair bit and I just wanted to get him out of the way and have a productive day not spent with the three of us having to herd the cats in this thread in order to get the lynch. Obviously this didn't work out. I'm fine dying to prove my alignment, I'd rather not but I understand that to certain people who can't see through multiple layers of this game I'm still somehow a good lynch and I don't feel like spending a lot of time changing their minds.
I will spend the following section on my defense: austin would have been an excellent shot had the check not proved us wrong. He tried very hard for artanis not to get lynched, in fact he was one of the only people who actually made a decent argument against it, he acknowledged VE but instead latched onto my posts about shevlocke and pushed them hard. with the flips, austin looked incredibly bad, and rather than try and fix his reads during the night phase he instead chose to mostly lurk. So I wanted to quickly render him irrelevant at the start of the day so we could have a more productive lynch. That obviously failed. To address the people who want me dead; you have no case on me, you've never had a case on me, and you never will have a case on me. A mistake doesn't make me scum and your attempts to kill me for a very transparent mistake which I've explained just display your own ignorance of the game as a whole. I will remind you all that I was the first person to call out artanis and I never backed away from that read when the heat started to pick up on him. Similarly, I was evolving on my position on VE without any scum motivation to do so; i.e. I did so before it became obvious VE was scum.
That's all I'm gonna say in my own defense. Moving forward I'm going to continue to without addressing this issue anymore. If people want me dead that's fine, this post is all I have for a defense and it would be pointless for me to spam about it. From here I really need to do some revaluation, I was only looking as far forward as artanis/shevlocke/austin/decon but since 2 are dead, 1 is dying, and the fourth I'm pretty sure is town, I have to spend some time to figure out the remaining 2-3 (probably 2) scum. I will not promise to never use the America role again, however if I do use it again, it will be after much more consideration and consultation with the thread.
That's all, it's late, I'm somewhat surprised to be alive, I will resume scum hunting tomorrow. Is this really what we're going to take as valid explanation for a clearly anti-town action today?
I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but if people are going to FAWN over lynching null reads, why aren't we lynching into M_Z? No one but the two people he's masoned with can come up with a decent reason for him being town, and we aren't even getting the logs that apparently make him unassailable.
What the fuck else has he done? Who is he lynching? Questions without answers, folks. Right now, this is his largest contribution to the thread, and NONE of it is scum hunting. Will he do something today? I highly doubt it.
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On April 12 2013 03:33 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:32 yamato77 wrote:On April 11 2013 15:31 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I am not dead?
Shevlocke that was a dickish thing to do.
Ok so here's the story, I have really no motivation to defend myself atm for rather obvious reasons. In the mason group we had discussed austin a fair bit and I just wanted to get him out of the way and have a productive day not spent with the three of us having to herd the cats in this thread in order to get the lynch. Obviously this didn't work out. I'm fine dying to prove my alignment, I'd rather not but I understand that to certain people who can't see through multiple layers of this game I'm still somehow a good lynch and I don't feel like spending a lot of time changing their minds.
I will spend the following section on my defense: austin would have been an excellent shot had the check not proved us wrong. He tried very hard for artanis not to get lynched, in fact he was one of the only people who actually made a decent argument against it, he acknowledged VE but instead latched onto my posts about shevlocke and pushed them hard. with the flips, austin looked incredibly bad, and rather than try and fix his reads during the night phase he instead chose to mostly lurk. So I wanted to quickly render him irrelevant at the start of the day so we could have a more productive lynch. That obviously failed. To address the people who want me dead; you have no case on me, you've never had a case on me, and you never will have a case on me. A mistake doesn't make me scum and your attempts to kill me for a very transparent mistake which I've explained just display your own ignorance of the game as a whole. I will remind you all that I was the first person to call out artanis and I never backed away from that read when the heat started to pick up on him. Similarly, I was evolving on my position on VE without any scum motivation to do so; i.e. I did so before it became obvious VE was scum.
That's all I'm gonna say in my own defense. Moving forward I'm going to continue to without addressing this issue anymore. If people want me dead that's fine, this post is all I have for a defense and it would be pointless for me to spam about it. From here I really need to do some revaluation, I was only looking as far forward as artanis/shevlocke/austin/decon but since 2 are dead, 1 is dying, and the fourth I'm pretty sure is town, I have to spend some time to figure out the remaining 2-3 (probably 2) scum. I will not promise to never use the America role again, however if I do use it again, it will be after much more consideration and consultation with the thread.
That's all, it's late, I'm somewhat surprised to be alive, I will resume scum hunting tomorrow. Is this really what we're going to take as valid explanation for a clearly anti-town action today? I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but if people are going to FAWN over lynching null reads, why aren't we lynching into M_Z? No one but the two people he's masoned with can come up with a decent reason for him being town, and we aren't even getting the logs that apparently make him unassailable. What the fuck else has he done? Who is he lynching? Questions without answers, folks. Right now, this is his largest contribution to the thread, and NONE of it is scum hunting. Will he do something today? I highly doubt it. IRL kinda takes priority you know, all the fake shots really take it out of a person. That's a pathetic excuse.
He's had ample time to "scumhunt" if he actually was invested in town.
Why don't you give us these logs that make you and RO so convinced that he's not mafia?
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On April 12 2013 03:41 Keirathi wrote:No. YES
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On April 12 2013 03:42 austinmcc wrote: If meapak were mafia he could have nuked D1 and didn't.
If meapak DOES have a silent nuke, it would have KILLED SOMEONE. Therefore, IF he had a silent nuke and used it, he killed either artanis or VE (the only people to die at the end of the day). They both flipped mafia. So IF there's a scary ol' silent nuke, it means he used it to kill mafia...
I don't terribly have a problem with someone thinking I was scum at the start of D2. I don't love my play up until that point, and could see nuking me if I were someone else. I don't find his play super anti-town in terms of nuke use except that he didn't check the thread a final time before posting what he'd been writing up. What's he done today?
Seriously, the dude is LAZY MAFIA.
I've been saying it all game, and he's done absolutely fucking nothing.
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OO I have my vote on.
Most of Sharrant comes across as very "clean" and thought out, but I'm not going to call him scum for that, because it doesn't seem like a strong heuristic. He could very well be town, but the fact that he defended Artanis AND VE is not a good thing.
On April 10 2013 23:40 Sharrant wrote: Good morning, everyone.
I'm glad to see I was wrong about Artanis and VisceraEyes.
I'll be writing up a longer post in a minute but I wanted to ask two questions first:
If the role reverser were used on a justice vigi when they shot a mafia member, what would be the end result? Would both/either player live through the shot?
If the role reverser used his power on the janitor when the janitor did not use his power, would it activate or would the role reverser fizzle out because no action was taken by the janitor?
Do people actually say that kind of shit when they're wrong? It seems unnaturally complacent with this "pro-town" ideal he has going on in ihis filter.
On April 12 2013 00:18 Sharrant wrote: I'm not particularly happy with any other lynch right now. I'd like to lynch StrongAndBig as things currently stand. Even his lynch has too many "what ifs" in my mind, but that's the lynch I'm most confident in, unless someone has proof that BM is not JusticeVigi.
I agree with the plan to claim from the bottom up, I'm just waiting until we get up to me. I'll do my best to check in on the thread throughout the day, because I don't want to slow the claims down. It seems to likely to me that scum don't have BC, but there's still the possibility that they do.
My votes will be on StrongAndBig, and my second vote will be on Austin. If someone has an anti-nuke to save him, I'll likely move my vote.
This is the only other thing that makes me want to lynch him.
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On April 12 2013 03:51 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:45 yamato77 wrote:On April 12 2013 03:42 austinmcc wrote: If meapak were mafia he could have nuked D1 and didn't.
If meapak DOES have a silent nuke, it would have KILLED SOMEONE. Therefore, IF he had a silent nuke and used it, he killed either artanis or VE (the only people to die at the end of the day). They both flipped mafia. So IF there's a scary ol' silent nuke, it means he used it to kill mafia...
I don't terribly have a problem with someone thinking I was scum at the start of D2. I don't love my play up until that point, and could see nuking me if I were someone else. I don't find his play super anti-town in terms of nuke use except that he didn't check the thread a final time before posting what he'd been writing up. What's he done today? Seriously, the dude is LAZY MAFIA. I've been saying it all game, and he's done absolutely fucking nothing. Here's the thing. Maybe he's lazy mafia. If he's mafia, he voluntarily just didn't shoot D1. That seems like a poor choice. That's something that I would flag as saying, "Hey...hold up. This guy looks like he might be mafia, but he used his role in an odd manner for someone who is mafia." I would second guess my read on him. Then I would go, "Wait a minute, snb claimed a cop check on MZ." If snb is lying, he's taking a risk that there are no other whatever-cops above him on the chart. A small risk, but a risk. And maybe MZ is a gf, that's a possibility. But again, it's SOME/SLIGHT/DECENT evidence that MZ might not be mafia. Then, there are a couple other players with LESS in their favor, imo. What has sharrant or shelvocke done that makes them less likely mafia than MZ? OO? Mocsta? geript? There are a boatload of players who have done very little today, almost ALL of us have done very little of consequence. You are tunneled in on these little weird things and need to expand your view. You want or wanted to kill BM, despite claiming that you picked justice vigi and didn't get it. He seems like the only person who fits the bill, and that means that, if he's town, he's shooting at mafia, and if he's mafia, he's shooting at mafia or dying. If he's actually justice vigi, that is ACTUALLY the worst possible lynch you could come up with. So...quit being tunneled in. It hasn't served you particularly well in some recent games, and right now it's not doing you any good. I may appear tunneled, but in reality I'm just trying to work through some of the doubts I have about this game:
Mocsta and his shot BM and his refusal to claim Oats' entire play M_Z and the mason circle Sharrant Shelvocke Sinani and the check (GF?) OO Vivax SnB EVERY FLIP FROM NIGHT 1 RO
People I'm CONFIDENT that are town: Geript Sn0 Austin Keirathi
You can see the discrepancy.
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On April 12 2013 03:58 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:51 austinmcc wrote:On April 12 2013 03:45 yamato77 wrote:On April 12 2013 03:42 austinmcc wrote: If meapak were mafia he could have nuked D1 and didn't.
If meapak DOES have a silent nuke, it would have KILLED SOMEONE. Therefore, IF he had a silent nuke and used it, he killed either artanis or VE (the only people to die at the end of the day). They both flipped mafia. So IF there's a scary ol' silent nuke, it means he used it to kill mafia...
I don't terribly have a problem with someone thinking I was scum at the start of D2. I don't love my play up until that point, and could see nuking me if I were someone else. I don't find his play super anti-town in terms of nuke use except that he didn't check the thread a final time before posting what he'd been writing up. What's he done today? Seriously, the dude is LAZY MAFIA. I've been saying it all game, and he's done absolutely fucking nothing. Here's the thing. Maybe he's lazy mafia. If he's mafia, he voluntarily just didn't shoot D1. That seems like a poor choice. That's something that I would flag as saying, "Hey...hold up. This guy looks like he might be mafia, but he used his role in an odd manner for someone who is mafia." I would second guess my read on him. Then I would go, "Wait a minute, snb claimed a cop check on MZ." If snb is lying, he's taking a risk that there are no other whatever-cops above him on the chart. A small risk, but a risk. And maybe MZ is a gf, that's a possibility. But again, it's SOME/SLIGHT/DECENT evidence that MZ might not be mafia. Then, there are a couple other players with LESS in their favor, imo. What has sharrant or shelvocke done that makes them less likely mafia than MZ? OO? Mocsta? geript? There are a boatload of players who have done very little today, almost ALL of us have done very little of consequence. You are tunneled in on these little weird things and need to expand your view. You want or wanted to kill BM, despite claiming that you picked justice vigi and didn't get it. He seems like the only person who fits the bill, and that means that, if he's town, he's shooting at mafia, and if he's mafia, he's shooting at mafia or dying. If he's actually justice vigi, that is ACTUALLY the worst possible lynch you could come up with. So...quit being tunneled in. It hasn't served you particularly well in some recent games, and right now it's not doing you any good. I may appear tunneled, but in reality I'm just trying to work through some of the doubts I have about this game: Mocsta and his shot BM and his refusal to claim Oats' entire play M_Z and the mason circle Sharrant Shelvocke Sinani and the check (GF?) OO Vivax SnB EVERY FLIP FROM NIGHT 1 RO People I'm CONFIDENT that are town: Geript Sn0 Austin Keirathi You can see the discrepancy. Now if I was to take things at face value ( like you guys suggest), then the only people I want to lynch into dwindles:
Shelvocke Sharrant OO
If 2/3 or 3/3 of the remaining mafia are among them, then yeah, you guys are obviously on the right track here, but you don't really need me to accomplish hunting them, do you? It's already done; I know they have a chance at being mafia, so I'm trying to pursue opinions on other people to get a more clear picture of the game that isn't "tunneled".
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Out of anyone, you can reasonably assume that Palmar was shot, if BM is telling the truth.
ALTERNATIVELY, IF BM IS MAFIA
Caller could be town.
That's why he and Mocsta need to claim.
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On April 12 2013 04:18 yamato77 wrote: Out of anyone, you can reasonably assume that Palmar was shot, if BM is telling the truth.
ALTERNATIVELY, IF BM IS MAFIA
Caller could be town.
That's why he and Mocsta need to claim. EBWOP:
Palmar was shot by mafia as the factional KP
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On April 12 2013 04:19 Sn0_Man wrote: Sharrant's claim lends weight to SnB's claim although it is also another "safe" claim in that he knows he can claim VT with it. However, claiming his character name is indicative of cooperation (though hosts sometimes provide fake character names to scum so...).
Doesn't really clear Sharrant but makes me more town-read on SnB.
(PS: I just realized that I make 3 people left to claim. Whatever. I know my role, as does austin, and I'd have claimed any KP I was responsible for) As a corollary, you have to claim before Austin dies.
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Has anyone considered this possibility?
If BM is telling the truth, and is JV who shot mafia Caller, and Deconduo was actually mafia Janitor, there's only 1/5 mafia left.
Seems possible, no?
Thus, if we lynch mafia and don't win the game, and there's no anti-town third party, one of Mocsta/BM is probably mafia.
That's how I reached that conclusion.
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On April 12 2013 04:21 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:18 yamato77 wrote:On April 12 2013 04:18 yamato77 wrote: Out of anyone, you can reasonably assume that Palmar was shot, if BM is telling the truth.
ALTERNATIVELY, IF BM IS MAFIA
Caller could be town.
That's why he and Mocsta need to claim. EBWOP: Palmar was shot by mafia as the factional KP Okay, what happened to rayn? you think he was hider or something (with a pretty high pick )? Could be ANYTHING, to be honest. There are too many roles that could cause death that we'll never know about.
Maybe he was JV?
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On April 12 2013 04:27 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 04:23 yamato77 wrote: Has anyone considered this possibility?
If BM is telling the truth, and is JV who shot mafia Caller, and Deconduo was actually mafia Janitor, there's only 1/5 mafia left.
Seems possible, no?
Thus, if we lynch mafia and don't win the game, and there's no anti-town third party, one of Mocsta/BM is probably mafia.
That's how I reached that conclusion. Town mocsta could totally have shot town decon, but I do see your logic. Why would town deconduo, knowing he was about to die, use janitor?
Makes more sense from a mafia perspective.
But yeah, Mafia Mcosta shooting town decon makes even less sense, unless they had a rolecop on him and accurately predicted he would use his power.
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The plan from here is simple:
Check/Shoot/Lynch BM Check/Shoot/Lynch Mocsta
GG
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Sno, invent me a gun so I can kill the last mafia tomorrow.
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On April 12 2013 12:37 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 12:31 yamato77 wrote: The plan from here is simple:
Check/Shoot/Lynch BM Check/Shoot/Lynch Mocsta
GG You tried to grab justice vig right? Why BM then? JV could have been one of Rayn or Palmar.
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Other potential candidate for last mafia if both Moc and BM are town is Shelvocke.
So yeah, this game is almost solved, assuming there are no more GF flips.
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On April 12 2013 12:41 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 12:39 geript wrote: Kei, Yamato should be on that list somewhere Yea, probably. Not exactly sure where. I'll think about it some more. Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 12:40 yamato77 wrote:On April 12 2013 12:37 geript wrote:On April 12 2013 12:31 yamato77 wrote: The plan from here is simple:
Check/Shoot/Lynch BM Check/Shoot/Lynch Mocsta
GG You tried to grab justice vig right? Why BM then? JV could have been one of Rayn or Palmar. And BM somehow knew that they were the JV and that he could claim it safely? He's never claimed anything directly.
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Also, if you're going to be coordinating checks, every cop should check each other.
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On April 12 2013 14:03 geript wrote: Right now I'm having second thoughts about caller being scum. You think?
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On April 12 2013 14:03 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 14:03 geript wrote: Right now I'm having second thoughts about caller being scum. You think? READ:
That's what I've been saying since BM claimed he shot Caller >_>
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>_>
You guys are making this game more complicated than it should be.
How about we lynch Mocsta, since his shot was not on scum?
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This thread is truly a work of art.
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On April 13 2013 05:53 geript wrote: Why isn't anyone commenting on my points against Scumrathi? Because if Keir is scum, he's playing the scum game OF HIS LIFE.
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Geript, I will say this in the nicest way possible:
Take a break from this game. You need it.
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On April 13 2013 10:57 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 10:48 Bill Murray wrote: i just wanted to see your reaction im not sending any kill in? well, considering: Good luck with that. He says he doesn't have to, that the role got changed.
I'm leery of the claim, tbh.
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On April 13 2013 11:01 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: welp I'm ready to nuke BM if everyone's down. As much as I haven't liked you this game, this feels fair if scum doesn't die and he is still alive tomorrow.
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That might be a good idea, no?
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So some asshole picked a traitor role?
WTF?
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Only 4 CONFIRMED scum.
Why the hell would deconduo, AS TOWN, use janitor NIGHT 1, WHEN HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO DIE?
Mind blowing.
Anyway, Shelvocke and Vivax are two people I would consider to lynch today, with a STRONG preference for Shelvocke.
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##Vote Vivax
Vivax isn't even interested in the game anymore, and is no longer active. He, as town, is spammy as fuck and insane the entire game.
Kill it.
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On April 13 2013 12:38 Mocsta wrote: nah. shevlocke is completely off the cards.
Night 1.. i said Sinani /Shevlocke were confirmed town for the way, confirmed scum went after them for lynch
You fucks all laughed at me.
We know SInani is green check.
& they *all* went after shevlocke even harder.. Shevlocke is town; and confirmed vanilla. Your logic was terrible, you being right does not make it better.
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Then lynch Vivax.
I'm not arguing with you, am I?
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Scum is almost certainly one of Vivax or Sinani.
I've given my reasoning on Vivax, and Sinani throughout the game, but the check on Sinani is the only thing that's made me doubt this, but I have a decent explanation.
What in Sinani's filter makes one think he picked vote-rigger to deny a mafia role?
On April 05 2013 02:50 sinani206 wrote: The real problem with all of these plans is that the entire town has to cooperate. As we can see (Caller), not everyone is willing to do that. I've sent in numbers that agree with rayn's system, but I really don't think that it's going to help town any more than randomly picking numbers.
He specifically argued AGAINST plans, because he didn't think town would cooperate. Why is he then picking a role that only helps mafia? Wouldn't he want to pick a strong defensive role if he wanted to help town?
Vote-rigger also fits in to how Sinani plays scum; lurky and for the endgame. As the last scum alive in the scum team in Red Team's Prize, he refused to give up until the very last day when everyone was lynching him anyway. Also of note is that there was also a mafia vote-rigger in that game that was extremely powerful.
But where's his interest in this game? Where is his attempts to scumhunt? He's pushed BIllMurray, who happened to be mafia, but did he actually TRY to get him shot? Not really. And as we've seen, scum have almost no problem bussing this game whatsoever.
I doubt this read more than I doubt my read on Vivax because SOME of his posting comes across genuine, but honestly, he could very well be mafia. His "bonus" might just be a GF bonus, similar to Artanis'. With so many cops running around, I wouldn't doubt it.
What I want to know is, what did the check on him specifically say? Only alignment, or did it also include role? I'm interested.
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Plus, my role says something about being an investigator of a politician, which he claims to be.
Again, arguing on flavor, but it's something to think about nonetheless.
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Think about it this way, what town alignment gets a bonus for vote-rigging when town players are law enforcement?
The fuck?
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I would rather have him use his vote rig on the leading candidate so we can not worry about that power
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Fair enough.
Continue on, I would happily lynch two null reads today.
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On April 14 2013 03:51 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 03:49 Keirathi wrote:On April 14 2013 03:44 Mocsta wrote: That leaves; yam/SnB/Vivax.
S&B has green+VT check on yam. Whether S&B is town or scum, the check is valid. And a VT can't get any "bonuses" afaik. Which means yam is almost certainly green. Ahh ok. I can live with that That leaves Vivax really kk ##Unvote ##Vote: Vivax Finally Mocsta catches up to the rest of the thread.
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Why are you not even reading the post you quoted?
Ugh.
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On April 14 2013 13:01 Mocsta wrote: Ugh?
Why vote himself regardless. wats the point.
Its pretty clear who the town wants dead; so why bother to make this. just do the fucking action. It doesn't fucking matter who he votes if he's just going to rig the lynch anyway.
Come on.
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I'd rather lynch Vivax than the guy who is actually in here being active, lol.
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On April 15 2013 07:52 Restraining Order wrote: And I would find it very friendly of you guys if people would sheep me more. Idk, SNB seems to care about the game today.
Him checking me is lol-worthy though.
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I am not the last mafia
Why the fuck did we lynch the fucking detective over Vivax
UUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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On April 15 2013 12:41 Mocsta wrote: Geript.. ^^
thats why the game isnt enjoyable.
hes scum btw
look how he comes in to just shit on everyone.. but wasnt here when we ened opinion. I was here earlier, when I had time to play
I told you idiots to lynch Vivax
Now I'm back, and the guy with a GREEN CHECK ON ME has been lynched over Vivax, who gives zero fucks
I just want this game to be over.
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I am Vivax' attempt at scumhunting
This information has been in the game since forever, and he's just now doing this when he's the last option for town to lynch
WTF
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On April 15 2013 13:10 Vivax wrote: I'm like 90 % sure you didn't read through yamato before posting that garbage. Vivax, if you are indeed the last mafia in this game, as I believe you are, please concede.
This game is a waste of time.
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Accusing me isn't going to help you, by the way.
If tomorrow comes and you're still trying to get me lynched, I guarantee that you will lose the argument with me.
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I would rather not get lynched if I don;t have to.
Thanks.
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Besides, if we double lynch, why aren't we lynching Oats?
1000000% he should be checked tonight, just as RO.
Also, I want logs of the mason chat because Oats being AFK lategame is worrisome. He did this in LIX and I hated it.
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We need checks on RO/Oats
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Shelvocke is worth a check, too.
He's even worse than Vivax.
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Vivax, Moc went over this
No, I'm not mafia.
It does look bad, sure, but in all honesty, why would I, as mafia, bus Artanis, and then NOT go to VE or Shelvocke like the rest of them?
Why am I pushing sinani? Do you disagree that he looked like mafia at that point?
Why would Artanis disagree with lynching his scumbuddy's lynch option?
Questions to answer.
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I say we double lynch Vivax/Shelvocke tomorrow.
Anyone disagree?
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On April 15 2013 13:29 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 13:25 yamato77 wrote: Vivax, Moc went over this
No, I'm not mafia.
It does look bad, sure, but in all honesty, why would I, as mafia, bus Artanis, and then NOT go to VE or Shelvocke like the rest of them?
Why am I pushing sinani? Do you disagree that he looked like mafia at that point?
Why would Artanis disagree with lynching his scumbuddy's lynch option?
Questions to answer. I didn't notice all mafia went to VE or Shelvocke afterwards, did you mention this point previously in the game? Can you show me where? Actually, it looks like all mafia bussed Artanis or VE from the votecounts
Meh.
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On April 15 2013 13:33 Vivax wrote: It shows that you had a special perspective to watch things happen, it doesn't look like something a townie would notice easily, so late since D1. Are you just doing this because you think I'm going to call you town for going all tunnel-mode on me?
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On April 15 2013 13:34 Mocsta wrote: The lowest fruit for me are
Vivax // Oats // Shevlocke
We can do checks of whatever, but we are going to have to stop being lazy and revert back to traditoinal filter diving.
The most removed player in that list is Shevlocke. He needs to go. Okay, so let's look at Shelvocke, because when I went back to look at votes D1, scum were not on him.
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On April 15 2013 13:37 Vivax wrote: Why did you say all mafia went to Shelvocke/VE if that wasn't the case though? I distinctly remember that being the case, for some reason.
I was wrong.
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On April 08 2013 16:05 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 09:36 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 08:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 08:23 Shelvocke wrote:
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia. Elaborate please? Do you think I was chasing you for funsies the other day? I dont think you scum anymore.. i just think your bad town But conviction was there, and I think Shevlocke comment was fair (regarding me at least) No. I want to know why Shelvocke thinks i'm town. Read my filter: + Show Spoiler +On April 07 2013 15:33 Shelvocke wrote:I don't really think rayn is mafia. His play does look different from those town quotes you had, but it doesn't look like that mafia game either. The only part of that game where he just suddenly jumps is the part where he votes for Krefla and even then he has a reason because Krefla just came in right before the deadline. The fact that he seems a lot more impulsive in this game than he has been before is something that points to him being town. I feel he would be a lot more careful and safe as mafia. The plan switch looks kind of strange, but his overall attitude makes him more likely town. On April 07 2013 15:52 Shelvocke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:44 Mocsta wrote:On April 07 2013 15:39 Shelvocke wrote: What do you mean? He seems to jump around based on what's going on in the thread. Thank you. so impulsive is then defined as: in response to others; rather than in creating new ideas. I dont see what is townie about that. Scum can be equally impulsive in regards to thread sentiment. However, I dont particularly care about the action itself: do you think his motives for "jumping around" is founded upon processing new information to update the conclusion? I get what you're saying, but I've never seen a new mafia player be so crazy. I don't really understand the reasons for some of the stuff he does but it seems to me that he sees one post and then just makes up his mind based on that. Usually new mafia are much more safe and concerned about their appearance. It's possible he's some kind of mafia gosu but frankly that's not the impression I get from him. Something about this situation really strikes me the wrong way. There was still plenty of time left in the day and an Artanis lynch was nowhere certain. Like shooting gonzaw pretty much guarantees an Artanis lynch and I can't think of a good reason for mafia to do that if Artanis is mafia. I'm rereading the thread right now. Not entirely sure who to kill right now, but it's not Artanis. ##Unvote
Literally the most incriminating thing of all time.
You know when I said that his post looked bad, Vivax? It was this post.
I had the EXACT OPPOSITE reaction, but here he comes with this.
On April 08 2013 07:38 Shelvocke wrote: I like gonzaw's case. Artanis's stuff on geript does looks unnecessarily agressive and fake. I'm voting for him.
##Vote Artanis[Xp]
That's his original vote post (and only justification) for Artanis in the midst of town sheeping Gonzaw. Looks like a bus, smells like a bus, definitely is a bus.
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I posted those in opposite order, but do note that those are his only two posts about Artanis in the entirety of day 1.
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I think we should just kill Shelvocke regardless of checks
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Scum bussed hard this game, especially day 1.
Are you really that surprised?
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If Keir is scum, he deserves to win, IMO.
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Show some examples of this bad early game and we'll talk about it further.
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I'm too tired to click through filters.
/lazy
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Maybe now you can understand how I felt when I came back to the thread to see a dead SnB...
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So Shelvocke and Vivax?
Any checks worth noting?
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skjdfkfshgaerwfghjkhsf
...Oats
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I'm fairly sure I like the Vivax/Oats double lynch.
Shelvocke is the only other person I'm even considering today, so there's that.
If people have problems with that, I don't really care. This game has dragged on for a while.
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I don't think RO is mafia if Keir saw nothing from the masoning to suggest it.
I would like to see the mason logs just to know what Oats has been doing, because his contributions to the thread are terrible. He's also one I know to not give up for a while as mafia, as evidenced by LIX.
Vivax is still the best lynch, with Oats not far behind.
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I'm not even going to fight you people lynching me because it makes no sense. You're inventing narratives to fit this idea of me being mafia rather than taking the time to honestly evaluate my play in context.
There are three people you need to be weary of; Oats, Vivax, and Shelvocke. I hope you have enough lynches left.
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I guess I'll talk about that later when I have time.
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See what I mean by inventing a narrative?
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Mocsta, the problem is that both of you are ignoring the fact that until he died, Artanis did start to look better, even by your own admission.
The difference is in how I unvoted Artanis after engaging him, and shelvocke invites him based on WIFOM without a second thought.
Think about this more. It's seriously not that difficult to understand how I could have simply been wrong, because it is there in my filter. It is not in Shelvocke's however. I wasn't cherry picking like you guys when I showed his read on Artanis and the ridiculous way he went off the wagon.
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Whatever. I'm no longer interested in arguing with you. There's no point when you have this idea in your head and don't let it go.
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Also, you're right, I don't care.
Arguing with you this game has been the most unfun experience ever.
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On April 16 2013 23:45 Mocsta wrote: I refuse to believe
you gave a shit about hydra, purely because you had a nuke I very clearly gave a shit about this game for quite a while.
But whatever, just because I'm demotivated late game, call me mafia.
Absurd.
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Note that you guys are trying to lynch me for moving the lynch off of mafia onto someone you don't know the alignment of certainly, and assuming that it was mafia motivated simply because it happened.
Just because I felt stronger about my own read on Sinani at the time does not mean I'm mafia who just "weakly bussed" his teammates.
Also, if you look at voting, MAFIA ALL BUSSED THAT DAY
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Lol, whatever.
I was suspicious of BM when you were all fawning over claims.
I've been telling town to lynch into deadwood like Vivax and Shelvocke all game, since they've been un-involved for days.
Get over yourselves. Me "giving up" or whatever is in no way an indication of my alignment. I quite clearly do just this late game in Parallel and Personality when I feel demotivated to post or play.
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That's about the worst argument I've ever seen for calling me mafia, but whatever, go on the spam quotes of BM to determine his scumbuddies.
ROFL.
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Why shelvocke?
Who is in here arguing with me right now?
Believe it or not, simply because you guys are foaming at the mouth calling me mafia makes me more inclined to lynch into geript/shelvocke than any of you.
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Think logically for a second and realize that all of the things you accuse me of, geript is even more guilty of.
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Ugh, those arguments do not make me mafia whatsoever.
Seriously, think about this. I'm done arguing, but if you want to win, you need to get out of this mode you're in.
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Maybe you'll learn, after this game.
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I've only been mislynched one time, and it was at mylo of a game where I had stopped caring at the end because of extreme demotivation.
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I am very clearly not martyring.
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The question you should,d ask yourself is whether or not my behavior this game is more in line with what you expect from town yamato or scum yamato.
I think people have this misconception of me that I stay active and spammy the whole game, which is untrue. The behavior people are calling me scum for is adequately, and truthfully explained by the fact that arguing with people like Oats/Vivax/Mocsta all game is not enjoyable.
I guess I deserve to get lynched for it or whatever, but critical thinking about this situation could avoid town losing due to my lack of motivation.
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Vivax, the most prolific spammer of all the spammy spammers, has less spam than me this game.
I could lynch him off that alone.
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Then again, he was less spammy than normal in Hydra 2, so I can't exactly be sure with that heuristic, can I?
Honestly, lynching Shelvocke is the only thing that I care about today, so you guys are free to run with your crazy "yamato played the best scum game of his life" theories and lynch me so long as you ensure that you win the game by lynching Shelvocke at the same time.
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I care about the game.
I made it possible to scumhunt in the early stages.
I came up with a pro-town plan for the picks.
I scumhunted a whole lot in the first couple of days.
I'm more active than I've ever been in any game as mafia.
I'm more town than I've ever been in any game as mafia.
I'm still alive in this game, and am only just now receiving heat for my lack of contribution today, when as mafia I am caught every time on day 1 by how useless and worthless my posting is.
I'm obviously town to anyone who takes the time to look at my filter with anything other than severe confirmation bias.
I'm also right in that none of what you guys are quoting makes me mafia, and all your cases are bad.
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Shelvocke clearly mafia.
Clearly.
I don't even need a case.
Just lynch him. I really don't give a fuck why you think I'm a good lynch.
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I'm done arguing with Oats/Vivax/Mocsta, bro.
You have fun banging your head against a wall.
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Vivax still caring about "finding mafia" this late in the game is a point in his favor. This is also consistent with his town meta of being completely confirmation biased, so yeah.
The arguments for him being scum aren't great, to be honest. He was uninvolved for a while, but we all were.
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On April 11 2013 11:58 geript wrote: Lol. Vivax totes scum.
Town Vivax = crazy, invested, doesn't care how he posts, doesn't give up random stupid ideas lightly and has lots of random stupid ideas Scum Vivax = semi sane, lazy, drops crazy ideas, tries to look normal
Vivax not reading = lazy Vivax proposing different lynch # picks to look active and drops it when blasted about it = scum Vivax not showboating about being right on lynch # pick idea = scum Vivax trying to make sense = scum
Sn0 calling Vivax worst mislynch ever = protecting scum buddy
GG town. Sheep Geript ftw
This is the best argument, IMO. If you want to prove this, I would be more convinced.
Do note that I want vivax/shelvocke to die today, and my votes reflect that.
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I just don't like associations much anymore.
Scum teams are too good at playing with them to make them good at all.
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On April 17 2013 04:47 Vivax wrote:Why geript could be scum massive push against keirathi at end of night before he nukes BM: + Show Spoiler +On April 13 2013 03:55 geript wrote: People should reread Keirathi's filter again with consideration of the flips so far. On April 13 2013 04:18 geript wrote: Just read his damn filter. Tell me if his D1 filter looks towny at all. On April 13 2013 04:37 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 03:53 Keirathi wrote: Bleh, I got drafted into helping my mom in the garden today. So I probably wont be around for a few more hours. Some quick comments:
1) Artanis: His recent play feels more townie, and I thought he was a coinflip at best even before gonzaw died. Not sure why Caller (apparently) killed him. I (still) don't like him as a lynch candidate today even if Caller didn't kill him.
2) Caller: I hate everything about his play, but the fact remains that if Caller is Showtime! and used it now, on Artanis or all people, just doesn't make much sense from scum. Possible, but not likely scum IMO.
3) VE: He still hasn't done his classic scum tell that I mentioned, but he's also not done ANYTHING. With geript claiming that NRA was taken already b spot 6, VE is a valid option for having chosen it (Shelvocke too, since he's obviously a smurf of someone who is at least familiar with older games). I'm just not sure about him at all...if he did take NRA as scum, his play would make a lot of sense. Maybe we lynch him.
4) Shelvocke: MZ + austin had good points. I could get behind a Shelvocke lynch.
5) Sinani: Very possibly scum. I pointed out his weird "playing it safe" quote, and also how he described S&B as trying to direct the thread to justify his vote. He then came back to neither answer my questions nor expound on anything else (including his own reads), just to ask gonzaw his role and tell gonzaw to shoot BM. If not lynch today, then tomorrow.
Anyways, be back in a few hours. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 23:51 Keirathi wrote:On April 09 2013 21:38 Palmar wrote: And I wrote the assassin and nra = scum analysis. I hate everything about this so much. That entire post was just you rehashing things that had already been said. Geript had told us why VE was probably NRA and probably scum. Yours was just why NRA was probably scum, didn't include who it was. And EVERYONE had already concluded that gonzaw was shot by a scum assassin. Your entire contribution was...nothing new at all. Why are you trying to buy town cred for that, rofl. Funny the 180 on VE hunh. I completely outed VE as NRA and scum but Kei was only "maybe" interested in lynching VE. Tell me that's not fishy. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 12:25 Keirathi wrote:Anyways: raynpelikoneet: I just got out of RED Team (click link for his filter) with a town rayn, so my expectations of his town play are still in the forefront of my mind. And some very obvious things aren't matching up: 1) Progression of reads: I'm not going to quote every instance, but something really sticks out to me: + Show Spoiler +On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? On March 26 2013 08:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ Why do you assume i was serious in the first place? On March 26 2013 08:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:23 Dandel Ion wrote:On March 26 2013 08:19 cDgCorazon wrote: Rayn goes back to the shadows when he is called out on his argument.
Why are you scummy Rayn? Is he, though? Maybe that's all just in your head. A good question. After all it was prplhz who disappeared, not me. On March 26 2013 10:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: S&B: I never said i wasn't serious with my vote. I asked marv why does he assume i am serious. Something he also failed to answer. On March 26 2013 10:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:The reason i asked the question from marv was this post: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ ##Unvote ##Vote: ObviousOne He had voted me because i "overreacted" to prplhz. How does me asking "what's with the ninja vote?" make him change his vote to a stupid policy lynch? On March 26 2013 10:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: On top of that marv & Keir seem to be quite defensive about prplhz. Why not let the guy answer himself? On March 26 2013 21:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:I have one problem with marv. He pressure voted me early on in the game. When i asked his what's up with the ninja vote, he posted this: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ ##Unvote ##Vote: ObviousOne If he really thought i overreacted to prplhz why wouldn't he pressure me more? Was the "what's up with the ninja vote" somekinda secret townie answer i gave? If i was marv and i thought someone overreacted to something and i was already pressuring him, i would definitely keep the pressure on to try to find more clues about their alignment. Here he just completely drops the issue and changes his vote to a policy target (which i do not see serving any purpose in finding mafia). On March 27 2013 01:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:13 marvellosity wrote:On March 27 2013 01:11 cDgCorazon wrote:On March 27 2013 00:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: Holy crap Corazon is failing hard to even read my filter. I read your filter and all you've done is attack 6 people, all of which have been under pressure from others. I read your filter bro. Get some better defense. The fact is that rayn has brought new things to the table too; his analysis/vote of OO's second post, or Oats' apparent contradiction with the prplhz/Dandel cases - and indeed something came of this. Being active, suspicious of many people, and aggressively questioning are not what I think of as mafia characteristics. Besides this i havn't attacked people. I questioned marv and Keirathi. Keirathi told me why i was wrong in prplhz-defending-thingy, i agreed i was wrong and let it go. I questioned marv because i wanted him to do stuff. I agree with his reads/observations when he presented them and it makes me think he is town for now. He still didn't answer my question about the start of the game but because everyone seems to think it's irrelevant it probably is and i'm not going to sidetrack the discussion by screaming about it over and over again. Try again Cora. What you'll see is a direct thought process and how rayn's read progresses. He played like this for the entire game: see something he thinks is scummy, questions it, discusses it, and then either votes or moves on to something else. Or even just see something he finds scummy, dissects it, and makes a case. He's trying to figure out the game, and engaging people trying to get comments on his points/comment on their points/doing whatever he can to help town. Now let's look at this game: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game. It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia. RO: Thoughts on this? On April 04 2013 22:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:48 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game. It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia. RO: Thoughts on this? Nothing I have not already said. You seem to be disagreeing with me here. What is wrong in what i said? On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: 3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. On April 05 2013 11:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:08 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 10:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 10:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: and yeah, RO is scum i think. Can you walk me through this please. From what I saw, the only build up you had to claiming RO is scum is: On April 05 2013 03:28 Restraining Order wrote: Ok, you can keep townhunting them townreads if you want, I sent in my numbers already. They shouldn't be too obtrusive to whatever nonsense you'll come up with, so it's okay. Where I am having trouble following you is: I dont see how *only* scum would would or could make a statement like this. RO is failing to contribute to anything at all. See his filter. No more need to be said. Good kill on D1/N1. I still dont follow. What has there been to contribute? We have been talking about plans; just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them scum. I think this is clutching at straws, and is providing preferential treatment. RO duly pointed out others that also did not agree with the plan; yet you seem to be singling him out specifically. If you want traction: I am going to need more than "failing to contribute". Otherwise, this looks like a weak attempt to "scum hunt" - which can indeed be construed as scummy. In short, all I am asking for is: Why are ROs actions specifically scummy, and can not be a townie that shares a different mindset to that of yourself? To answer: read his filter.. is not an appropriate answer, because I already disagree with you.. you're meant to be trying to convince me...show me what you see RO is failing to contribute to the plans provided pre-picking phase by " lolololollllll, i sent my numbers, can't change, fu all,, i don't need to do shit.." Kill him. On April 05 2013 11:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:51 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 10:10 gonzaw wrote:On April 05 2013 06:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: 3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. Why On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw yes Gonzaw would you mind telling me what you think of oats, artanis, sharrant, and decondou? Would like to hear someone else's thoughts. Yo how about YOU tell me what you think of them? You can't force the wise man to do your bidding, he forces you to do his, and then enlightens you or punishes you accordingly I have to agree with yamato on Oats. Makes little sense for scum Oats to "intentionally disrupt" town like this in the drafting phase for no reason (if he's scum), rather than doing so when it matters to them: The Day phase. No reason to call him scum right now, wait until the game actually "matters" to state so. So you 5 guys are you sending the 1-5 draft choices? If so it may be better to claim so you don't clash between each other, and so you can convince other people not to take those as well (I already changed my number). I guess it's too late though, meh. I initially had a pretty bad feeling about oats, however he's just been too loud for me to think he's scum at this point. I'm rather suspicious of artanis, I actually wanted an opinion on sharrant because I have him as a complete null, and decondou was a red herring which I threw out on a whim. In hindsight you'd be too smart to go for it as scum anyway currently I have rayn as probable town since I've learned that the most annoying people tend to be town. That being said, I also really don't think RO is scummy. Also for the record, I'm not trying to force a wise man to do my bidding, just wanna check in with someone who completely played me before :D Oats is bad town or scum. Artanis is .. hmm.. idk.. sharrant almost definitely town. deconduo, leaning on scum at him. RO = scum. kill him <3 Etc, etc. This is how his reads "progress" with every single person that he's called scum. He just pulls their name out of thin air. Maybe makes up some justification for it, maybe not. VE/RO/Caller/me/austin/BM/etc etc. He's called ~half of the people in the game scum for little to no reasoning. And those reads swing extremely wildly. Over half of the people he randomly calls scum are people that conveniently happen to already be under some suspicion/pressure. And some extremely strange flip-flops. You'll notice up there in the quote spoiler, he was calling Caller scum for most of the game. Then: On April 06 2013 10:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 06 2013 10:23 geript wrote: Also, would someone familiar with Caller's meta tell me about him? Caller is actually town. Where did this come from? It makes no sense, because I don't see anything major that Caller changed, except he started pushing me. Or maybe that's the sense it makes; he stopped calling Caller scum once Caller started calling one of his "scum reads" scum (aka me). Which was my point to begin with: his reads just change when they're convenient to change. Not when he has sufficient reasons for changing them. Which is extremely different from everything about how he played in RED. 2) "The Plan": This point has already been talked about a bit, but I think it deserves a bit more attention. On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 03:10 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 03:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 03:04 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 02:59 geript wrote: @All Would everyone be okay if I came up with a set of 5 pods of rolls and the pods to be selected from in specific picks? I'd expect some feedback and editing on them. I'll be completely honest and say I hate plans like this. The game is called Pick YOUR Power. Not Let Everyone Else Pick Your Power For You. For one, I just don't see everyone agreeing, and to me it just ruins the fun of the game type. Nobody is saying what you should pick. I am suggesting that 5 players get to pick first. Is that a good plan or not and are the players town/mafia in your opinion? There are like 100 - or something - roles. If you don't get your favourite pick i'm sure you can find something else that suits you. I was responding to geripts plan to full pod out the game. IE: people in slots 1-4 only pick roles A, B, C, or D. Players in slots 5-6 only pick roles from E, F, G, or H. That's boring to me. I'm fine with players being given first picks (in theory) if they are going to use them to deny scum roles. If they're just going to pick whatever they feel like, then I disagree. I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. They should pick whatever they feel is best for the town. It's beneficial to town to have as many upper slots as possible. In one PYP i remember mafia!Chezinu picking CPRdoctor as ~#22. FUCKING CPRdoctor @ #22!!! There needs to be some cooperation in the picks, but it can't be too obvious or it's advantageous to mafia.If someone of us is mafia it doesn't matter, we need to be responsible for our actions regarding our role anyways. Notice what he says. People in the top picks need to have some kind of cooperation towards denying roles/picking strong roles. However, once he got his spot in the top 5, what happened to that cooperation? It was non-existent. He didn't even try. Town rayn in RED was cooperative and attempting to help town win all the way until end game, even when it meant he couldn't win himself (he had a dumb alternate win-con that involved killing a bunch of townies). He realized that he couldn't shoot us, or town as a whole would lose. So he sacrificed his own win-con and didn't shoot on the last night. Which makes me question this: On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. "This is the only plan I will support!" "Oh wait, no. I'll support the plan that directly benefits me, even though I just said the other one was super good." He doesn't even explain why that plan is better than geript's. Just that suddenly, since the new plan gives him a free shot at the top 5, he would rather push that one. But also notice how in the quote about the cooperation, he says "I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. They should pick whatever they feel is best for the town." Which begs the question: why the fuck did he say that he thought geript's plan was absolutely the best plan, then turn around and say that he thinks that plan is dumb just *ONE* hour later?? I can understand liking a plan, pushing it, then liking another plan better. But he completely flip flops by saying a plan is good, then almost immediately saying "no that plan is bad". It all just reeks of posturing to benefit himself, rather than what he legitimately thinks is the "best". TL;DR: Strange reads with no progression or reasoning, uncooperative, excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks. Rayn is scum. ##vote raynpelikoneet Weak case on confirmed towny Rayn. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 04:57 Keirathi wrote: @gonzaw:
I just don't find your case all the convincing, tbh. I think the strongest point you make is the one about the needless complaining about the thread (and maybe a bit about the geript case), but I don't think that is enough to lynch him on. Most of your other points are just comparing him to other players, which is useless and futile. Artanis is not yamato, or rayn, or Sharrant, or me, or VE, or whoever else you compared him to. He's Artanis, and will play like Artanis, not anyone else.
And about the "fake" aggression, I just flat out disagree with that whole section. I took a look back at British since people were talking about it, and he does that same kind of thing as town. Calls out a post, then antagonizes people for disagreeing with him or not commenting on it. Then moved on or keeps pressuring it, as appropriate.
Overall, I'm not particularly interested in lynching Artanis today. Hard defense of Artanis. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 17:37 Keirathi wrote:Also, as an aside: Pretty sure Sharrant is scum. Look at these posts: On April 07 2013 06:43 Sharrant wrote:On April 07 2013 04:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever. Kill me then. I can't hunt scum while not a single person in the entire game is taking me seriously.
##Vote: RestrainingOrder Hi, Viscera. I'm pretty much null on your actions, so I want you to help me. Now, the reason I'm null on you is because I know I can't read you. Last game we played I thought I had a slam dunk case on you, and you were town. Now I might be reaching with this, but I want you to help me talk about Keirathi. See, just a short while ago there was talk about why Keirathi was scum, I think there're some really valid points in there. And I think a few others saw it too, but then suddenly the town was dragged off of this and into a spammy little brawl focused on antogonizing you and painting you as scum. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're not, but the way the thread has turned suggests to me you're not. This feels more to me like you're getting attacked the same way that caused Marvellosity to explode when he was town in a recent game. So I want you to talk to me about Keirathi, who after being called out has dissapeared after the cases on him, and I just want your opinion on Rayne because frankly I'm not quite sure how to read him. Do you think this could be mafia Keirathi's team trying to drag the town away from him after he got caught by causing a spammy mess on day 1? Do you think this is more likely town getting in an argument that is not indicative of Keirathi's alignment? And then your opinion on Keirathi himself and Rayne would be great., thank you. In the pre-game. I think he was actually trying here to do what he claimed was happening with me. I think he was trying to draw attention away from VE and give VE and out by pushing sentiment back towards me. On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. Deflecting away from Artanis. On April 08 2013 11:21 Sharrant wrote:@StrongandBig Hi! I'll try and give you a sort of stream of consciousness on this one, and hopefully that will actually help me figure out where I stand on him. I've read through his filter a few times and I always notice things that send me in opposite directions on his alignment. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:Okay duders, raid night is over. Going for a quick re-read of the past half day after I post this since I've been tabbing out to catch what I could during down time. First impressions: I saw that Oats is/was under some suspicion (just going from memory, don't recall if it was talked out or not) but Oats is Oats; he's a bit all over the place but I don't see the same intent to shut things down that someone mentioned earlier. He was just as loud and all-over in RED. Null still. RO seems to want to be more helpful than I remember him being as scum in LX, not feeling what you guys that are suspicious of him are feeling there, either. Got my eye on Rayn at the moment. His style was spammy but usually constructive (at least in telling us what he was thinking) and I've got none of that after the first couple pages of his filter. Ten one-liners in a row or something, doesn't match up to his standard attacking pattern from RED. The attacks there were thought-out, here they mostly look like casual accusations perhaps fishing for reactions? The only points he has going for him is that he's absolutely confused about what is going on regarding the draft process: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should we have our roles by now? Rayn, if you are serious about RO being scum then lay if out for me in one clean concise post, and if you are not, who are you most suspicious of right now? Or are you just drunk again?
Other stuff: Most of the chat was about planning how to set up the top spots to get roles protected, is that still a thing? I'm spot 2 somehow, and I was thinking about taking America because America, fuck yeah! Is that going to make me a Pariah or something? Girls just wanna have fun, you know? I'll use it as a second lynch like was suggested yesterday or I can just sit on it if you guys are paranoid about it. Going back for that re-read and making some coffee. See you in a bit when I'm finished with that. PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! This post felt very airy, it certainly felt to me like a post that was primarily summation. There are some good questions in there, but there's no hard stances. The closest he comes to that is that he says he's got his eye on Rayn, but then never specifically says he was scummy. Points out he doesn't give fit his previous town meta, but then he gives him an out on it anyways saying that he might be fishing for reactions. I actually noticed something that really has me leaning towards scum on him now. He makes 2 posts specifically stating for people not to spam, and has several posts insulting BM for making small spammy posts with no content. I read this as townie when I first skimmed through his filter, but looking at it again There's something very wrong. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:.
PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. Look at his posts: + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:59 Restraining Order wrote:In fact, I'm just going to quote myself on this matter. On April 05 2013 11:30 Restraining Order wrote: Pick assassin and try to kill me with please.
That way I don't actually die to your stupidity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll stop reading your posts henceforth. Wouldn't be a problem if you'd actually think I'm mafia I'll indulge your soft town claim for a moment and simply ask you why your list contains 9 people. If you can justify all 9 in some way at least we'll know whether or not you're talking the breeze with these myriad suspicions. On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. On April 06 2013 10:08 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:06 Restraining Order wrote:On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. No, it's 9. I have no idea where VE got the Caller thing from, and it's sad you just take his word. If I've misread it please tell me how. It won't be the first time. I spent like 24 hours in Fruity misreading every little thing so just straighten me out instead of spitting in my face, thx. On April 06 2013 10:09 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I misread the quote-pyramid. He was saying he wanted to lynch Kier when I thought he was replying to Caller. My mistake. .... On April 06 2013 11:28 ObviousOne wrote: WTF are all these random ass reads BM? Is this what you always do? On April 06 2013 11:38 ObviousOne wrote:RIGHT ABOUT WHAT PLEASE TYPE MORE JESUS FUCK On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? On April 06 2013 13:52 ObviousOne wrote:... not sure what to make of this but way to leave yourself open to accusations of a scum slip. Wow that's really bad looking. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:37 geript wrote:I figured out why I don't like the case on RestrainingOrder at all. In The Game, I got to watch both Bugs and Kita push absolute bullshit towards town's direct. It was well crafted bullshit, but bullshit none the less. VE's case is an exact example of this type of thing for a few reasons: 1. The townread/lynch stuff + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So RO wants to lynch inside [Caller, Palmar, Decon, VE, Kierathi, Artanis, austin, OO, Vivax, sn0] before D1 starts. That's cool I guess, but some of those names sound familiar. Where have I seen those names before? ... Oh that's right. In that OTHER post where he made a list and said "4/5 are townies", he wants to lynch 3/5 of them. This is the exact type of thing that we as scum would jump on. Any little thing that we could catch where town fucked up, changed reads, etc. It's perfect to attack because it seems so simple and plausible. Town in general are not going to be filtering themselves constantly to see their positions, know where they stood on exact people, etc. Whereas as scum, we were quite often referencing ourselves to see what stances were plausible for us to take. I can't wholly ignore the possibility that RO may just be lazy scum, hell he lurked most of LX until his teammate shot him. However, it's stupid to think that this early on that scum would make a slip this big. It's far more likely to be bad/stupid town. This isn't particularly scummy. On April 06 2013 13:57 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [red]Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play?
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote: Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. town are more likely to flip flop than mafia On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:26 Bill Murray wrote: meta Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? AustinMCC at this point is betraying his blue meta as a lurker that I've seen He had a plan that would help the mafia, too, in regards to town picking from the mafia role list It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the mafia have taken from more "town" roles than "mafia" ones By that token, I don't expect there is a Godfather So do you know who is mafia or are you saying AustinMCC is a town read of yours? ALL of those posts were one after another. They're spread out over 4 hours, but it's 11 posts that are almost entirely one liners, some without even any text. Yet he was saying don't spam, make good quality posts. Why wasn't he doing that too? + Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 08:24 ObviousOne wrote: Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too. On April 08 2013 09:58 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:54 Palmar wrote: I think it's mafia defending me, I look too scummy for townies to defend me.
why is there no machine gun role that can kill like 8 people on day 1, I'd have liked that.
Also there really is not enough killing this game. Bored Walk Empire Mafiyawn: Pull Your Pud =[ On April 08 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote: Undertaker 21-0 GG no RE On April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. hi sharrant i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together. that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game? Commercial break. Come at me bro. On April 08 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote: Mocsta. I love you dearly. Please make paragraphs.
Or
I'll
Do
This
Just
To
Explain
Why
It's
Annoying
And
Difficult
To
Read. On April 08 2013 10:52 ObviousOne wrote: @Mocsta
<3 never change Look at all the spam there. And the kicker, On April 08 2013 10:28 ObviousOne wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Mocsta wrote: Gonzaw Unrelated question.
Do you think I spamming up the thread?
I am asking because my last couple posts have all been big text walls; and not sure if Im getting my message across succinctly at the moment.
Who cares at this point. Give the lurkers a shit load of posts to read when they get back. Let them cry. Let them complain. They will sheep anyway. Your question wouldn't even be relevant if everyone was participating. Be the Mocsta we know and love. Fuck the haters. Straight up saying to spam. Call it a joke, or whatever, but that kind of conflicting mindset isn't townie. ##vote: ObviousOneYou can't stay in line with your own thinking at all, I think that's because you're scum. Chainsaw Artanis. But I think this is the kicker: On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. This was almost immediately after the gonzaw shot. At the time, Mocsta and I (and maybe a few others), were floundering a bit about what role killed gonzaw. In strolls Sharrant being 100% sure it was an assassin kill (and remember, he's been hard defending the actual assassin). Keep reading a bit after that and see how the rest of the conversation went down. He tried to flip it to make Mocsta scummy, and he seemed to have put an extraordinary amount of thought into gonzaw being Jack before he flipped for a "townie". So yea, Sharrant is scum. And with that, I sleeps. G'nite! Look at this. He thinks Sharrant is chainsawing onto OO but qualifies with: Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 17:42 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP:
1 last thing. I think we have 2 scum between Sharrant, sinani, and Vivax. Maybe OO.
I think our lynch candidates for the day should be out of them. I'm going to drop my vote on Sharrant and sinani, and we can talk tomorrow. But seems to be thinking OO is likely scum or knowing he is: Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 10:59 Keirathi wrote:On April 11 2013 10:53 geript wrote: Sharrant not likely scum. Shelvocke not likely scum. OO not likely scum. MZ is a big ?? Best lynch of those 4. Why not OO? You seem to be overly reliant on this "scum didn't double pick" heuristic. OO didn't double pick with anyone as far as I can tell. Earlier you said "There are likely exactly 2 scum within the people who picked 1-5", which includes OO, except you never talked about him again. Read his filter and tell me he gives an actual reason for suspecting OO on D2. On April 13 2013 05:37 geript wrote: If myself and BM die tonight, please nuke Kei. Kthnxbai Day starts - relevant quotes: Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 12:09 geript wrote: So mocsta, what did you think of my points? Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 12:30 Keirathi wrote: I checked BM.
He is scum.
##Vote: Bill Murray Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 12:31 geript wrote: Well that makes this easy... Throw the Holy Hand Grenade at Bill Murray Keirathi, geript's main scumread, announces red check, and geript immediately kills him, saying it's easy. That doesn't make any sense. Geript clearly didn't have the balls to doubt the check of his main scumread, and that's extremely scummy. This case is really bad, but I'm not sure if that necessarily indicates that Vivax is mafia. Do you think so?
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On April 17 2013 05:32 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 05:29 yamato77 wrote:On April 17 2013 04:47 Vivax wrote:Why geript could be scum massive push against keirathi at end of night before he nukes BM: + Show Spoiler +On April 13 2013 03:55 geript wrote: People should reread Keirathi's filter again with consideration of the flips so far. On April 13 2013 04:18 geript wrote: Just read his damn filter. Tell me if his D1 filter looks towny at all. On April 13 2013 04:37 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 03:53 Keirathi wrote: Bleh, I got drafted into helping my mom in the garden today. So I probably wont be around for a few more hours. Some quick comments:
1) Artanis: His recent play feels more townie, and I thought he was a coinflip at best even before gonzaw died. Not sure why Caller (apparently) killed him. I (still) don't like him as a lynch candidate today even if Caller didn't kill him.
2) Caller: I hate everything about his play, but the fact remains that if Caller is Showtime! and used it now, on Artanis or all people, just doesn't make much sense from scum. Possible, but not likely scum IMO.
3) VE: He still hasn't done his classic scum tell that I mentioned, but he's also not done ANYTHING. With geript claiming that NRA was taken already b spot 6, VE is a valid option for having chosen it (Shelvocke too, since he's obviously a smurf of someone who is at least familiar with older games). I'm just not sure about him at all...if he did take NRA as scum, his play would make a lot of sense. Maybe we lynch him.
4) Shelvocke: MZ + austin had good points. I could get behind a Shelvocke lynch.
5) Sinani: Very possibly scum. I pointed out his weird "playing it safe" quote, and also how he described S&B as trying to direct the thread to justify his vote. He then came back to neither answer my questions nor expound on anything else (including his own reads), just to ask gonzaw his role and tell gonzaw to shoot BM. If not lynch today, then tomorrow.
Anyways, be back in a few hours. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 23:51 Keirathi wrote:On April 09 2013 21:38 Palmar wrote: And I wrote the assassin and nra = scum analysis. I hate everything about this so much. That entire post was just you rehashing things that had already been said. Geript had told us why VE was probably NRA and probably scum. Yours was just why NRA was probably scum, didn't include who it was. And EVERYONE had already concluded that gonzaw was shot by a scum assassin. Your entire contribution was...nothing new at all. Why are you trying to buy town cred for that, rofl. Funny the 180 on VE hunh. I completely outed VE as NRA and scum but Kei was only "maybe" interested in lynching VE. Tell me that's not fishy. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 12:25 Keirathi wrote:Anyways: raynpelikoneet: I just got out of RED Team (click link for his filter) with a town rayn, so my expectations of his town play are still in the forefront of my mind. And some very obvious things aren't matching up: 1) Progression of reads: I'm not going to quote every instance, but something really sticks out to me: + Show Spoiler +On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? On March 26 2013 08:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ Why do you assume i was serious in the first place? On March 26 2013 08:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:23 Dandel Ion wrote:On March 26 2013 08:19 cDgCorazon wrote: Rayn goes back to the shadows when he is called out on his argument.
Why are you scummy Rayn? Is he, though? Maybe that's all just in your head. A good question. After all it was prplhz who disappeared, not me. On March 26 2013 10:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: S&B: I never said i wasn't serious with my vote. I asked marv why does he assume i am serious. Something he also failed to answer. On March 26 2013 10:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:The reason i asked the question from marv was this post: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ ##Unvote ##Vote: ObviousOne He had voted me because i "overreacted" to prplhz. How does me asking "what's with the ninja vote?" make him change his vote to a stupid policy lynch? On March 26 2013 10:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: On top of that marv & Keir seem to be quite defensive about prplhz. Why not let the guy answer himself? On March 26 2013 21:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:I have one problem with marv. He pressure voted me early on in the game. When i asked his what's up with the ninja vote, he posted this: Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote:On March 26 2013 08:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: What's with the ninja vote marv? Just curious how you'd react given you totally overreacted to prplhz. I can join Hapa on his policy lynch though, so you're in luck ^^ ##Unvote ##Vote: ObviousOne If he really thought i overreacted to prplhz why wouldn't he pressure me more? Was the "what's up with the ninja vote" somekinda secret townie answer i gave? If i was marv and i thought someone overreacted to something and i was already pressuring him, i would definitely keep the pressure on to try to find more clues about their alignment. Here he just completely drops the issue and changes his vote to a policy target (which i do not see serving any purpose in finding mafia). On March 27 2013 01:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:13 marvellosity wrote:On March 27 2013 01:11 cDgCorazon wrote:On March 27 2013 00:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: Holy crap Corazon is failing hard to even read my filter. I read your filter and all you've done is attack 6 people, all of which have been under pressure from others. I read your filter bro. Get some better defense. The fact is that rayn has brought new things to the table too; his analysis/vote of OO's second post, or Oats' apparent contradiction with the prplhz/Dandel cases - and indeed something came of this. Being active, suspicious of many people, and aggressively questioning are not what I think of as mafia characteristics. Besides this i havn't attacked people. I questioned marv and Keirathi. Keirathi told me why i was wrong in prplhz-defending-thingy, i agreed i was wrong and let it go. I questioned marv because i wanted him to do stuff. I agree with his reads/observations when he presented them and it makes me think he is town for now. He still didn't answer my question about the start of the game but because everyone seems to think it's irrelevant it probably is and i'm not going to sidetrack the discussion by screaming about it over and over again. Try again Cora. What you'll see is a direct thought process and how rayn's read progresses. He played like this for the entire game: see something he thinks is scummy, questions it, discusses it, and then either votes or moves on to something else. Or even just see something he finds scummy, dissects it, and makes a case. He's trying to figure out the game, and engaging people trying to get comments on his points/comment on their points/doing whatever he can to help town. Now let's look at this game: + Show Spoiler +On April 04 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game. It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia. RO: Thoughts on this? On April 04 2013 22:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:48 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. The problem with this is that town has no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. Scum know who is lying and who is telling the truth. The information we gain is only reliable for mafia at the start of the game. It gives mafia more opportunities to fakeclaim, bullshit, or tell the truth if it benefits them the most, and make plans that revolve around those things. And you have no way of figuring out which is it. If mafia is wise and plays it right there is no way town is going to win anything from this compared to mafia. RO: Thoughts on this? Nothing I have not already said. You seem to be disagreeing with me here. What is wrong in what i said? On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: 3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. On April 05 2013 11:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:08 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 10:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 10:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: and yeah, RO is scum i think. Can you walk me through this please. From what I saw, the only build up you had to claiming RO is scum is: On April 05 2013 03:28 Restraining Order wrote: Ok, you can keep townhunting them townreads if you want, I sent in my numbers already. They shouldn't be too obtrusive to whatever nonsense you'll come up with, so it's okay. Where I am having trouble following you is: I dont see how *only* scum would would or could make a statement like this. RO is failing to contribute to anything at all. See his filter. No more need to be said. Good kill on D1/N1. I still dont follow. What has there been to contribute? We have been talking about plans; just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them scum. I think this is clutching at straws, and is providing preferential treatment. RO duly pointed out others that also did not agree with the plan; yet you seem to be singling him out specifically. If you want traction: I am going to need more than "failing to contribute". Otherwise, this looks like a weak attempt to "scum hunt" - which can indeed be construed as scummy. In short, all I am asking for is: Why are ROs actions specifically scummy, and can not be a townie that shares a different mindset to that of yourself? To answer: read his filter.. is not an appropriate answer, because I already disagree with you.. you're meant to be trying to convince me...show me what you see RO is failing to contribute to the plans provided pre-picking phase by " lolololollllll, i sent my numbers, can't change, fu all,, i don't need to do shit.." Kill him. On April 05 2013 11:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:51 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 10:10 gonzaw wrote:On April 05 2013 06:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: 3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. Why On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw yes Gonzaw would you mind telling me what you think of oats, artanis, sharrant, and decondou? Would like to hear someone else's thoughts. Yo how about YOU tell me what you think of them? You can't force the wise man to do your bidding, he forces you to do his, and then enlightens you or punishes you accordingly I have to agree with yamato on Oats. Makes little sense for scum Oats to "intentionally disrupt" town like this in the drafting phase for no reason (if he's scum), rather than doing so when it matters to them: The Day phase. No reason to call him scum right now, wait until the game actually "matters" to state so. So you 5 guys are you sending the 1-5 draft choices? If so it may be better to claim so you don't clash between each other, and so you can convince other people not to take those as well (I already changed my number). I guess it's too late though, meh. I initially had a pretty bad feeling about oats, however he's just been too loud for me to think he's scum at this point. I'm rather suspicious of artanis, I actually wanted an opinion on sharrant because I have him as a complete null, and decondou was a red herring which I threw out on a whim. In hindsight you'd be too smart to go for it as scum anyway currently I have rayn as probable town since I've learned that the most annoying people tend to be town. That being said, I also really don't think RO is scummy. Also for the record, I'm not trying to force a wise man to do my bidding, just wanna check in with someone who completely played me before :D Oats is bad town or scum. Artanis is .. hmm.. idk.. sharrant almost definitely town. deconduo, leaning on scum at him. RO = scum. kill him <3 Etc, etc. This is how his reads "progress" with every single person that he's called scum. He just pulls their name out of thin air. Maybe makes up some justification for it, maybe not. VE/RO/Caller/me/austin/BM/etc etc. He's called ~half of the people in the game scum for little to no reasoning. And those reads swing extremely wildly. Over half of the people he randomly calls scum are people that conveniently happen to already be under some suspicion/pressure. And some extremely strange flip-flops. You'll notice up there in the quote spoiler, he was calling Caller scum for most of the game. Then: On April 06 2013 10:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 06 2013 10:23 geript wrote: Also, would someone familiar with Caller's meta tell me about him? Caller is actually town. Where did this come from? It makes no sense, because I don't see anything major that Caller changed, except he started pushing me. Or maybe that's the sense it makes; he stopped calling Caller scum once Caller started calling one of his "scum reads" scum (aka me). Which was my point to begin with: his reads just change when they're convenient to change. Not when he has sufficient reasons for changing them. Which is extremely different from everything about how he played in RED. 2) "The Plan": This point has already been talked about a bit, but I think it deserves a bit more attention. On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 03:10 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 03:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 03:04 Keirathi wrote:On April 05 2013 02:59 geript wrote: @All Would everyone be okay if I came up with a set of 5 pods of rolls and the pods to be selected from in specific picks? I'd expect some feedback and editing on them. I'll be completely honest and say I hate plans like this. The game is called Pick YOUR Power. Not Let Everyone Else Pick Your Power For You. For one, I just don't see everyone agreeing, and to me it just ruins the fun of the game type. Nobody is saying what you should pick. I am suggesting that 5 players get to pick first. Is that a good plan or not and are the players town/mafia in your opinion? There are like 100 - or something - roles. If you don't get your favourite pick i'm sure you can find something else that suits you. I was responding to geripts plan to full pod out the game. IE: people in slots 1-4 only pick roles A, B, C, or D. Players in slots 5-6 only pick roles from E, F, G, or H. That's boring to me. I'm fine with players being given first picks (in theory) if they are going to use them to deny scum roles. If they're just going to pick whatever they feel like, then I disagree. I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. They should pick whatever they feel is best for the town. It's beneficial to town to have as many upper slots as possible. In one PYP i remember mafia!Chezinu picking CPRdoctor as ~#22. FUCKING CPRdoctor @ #22!!! There needs to be some cooperation in the picks, but it can't be too obvious or it's advantageous to mafia.If someone of us is mafia it doesn't matter, we need to be responsible for our actions regarding our role anyways. Notice what he says. People in the top picks need to have some kind of cooperation towards denying roles/picking strong roles. However, once he got his spot in the top 5, what happened to that cooperation? It was non-existent. He didn't even try. Town rayn in RED was cooperative and attempting to help town win all the way until end game, even when it meant he couldn't win himself (he had a dumb alternate win-con that involved killing a bunch of townies). He realized that he couldn't shoot us, or town as a whole would lose. So he sacrificed his own win-con and didn't shoot on the last night. Which makes me question this: On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. "This is the only plan I will support!" "Oh wait, no. I'll support the plan that directly benefits me, even though I just said the other one was super good." He doesn't even explain why that plan is better than geript's. Just that suddenly, since the new plan gives him a free shot at the top 5, he would rather push that one. But also notice how in the quote about the cooperation, he says "I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. They should pick whatever they feel is best for the town." Which begs the question: why the fuck did he say that he thought geript's plan was absolutely the best plan, then turn around and say that he thinks that plan is dumb just *ONE* hour later?? I can understand liking a plan, pushing it, then liking another plan better. But he completely flip flops by saying a plan is good, then almost immediately saying "no that plan is bad". It all just reeks of posturing to benefit himself, rather than what he legitimately thinks is the "best". TL;DR: Strange reads with no progression or reasoning, uncooperative, excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks. Rayn is scum. ##vote raynpelikoneet Weak case on confirmed towny Rayn. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 04:57 Keirathi wrote: @gonzaw:
I just don't find your case all the convincing, tbh. I think the strongest point you make is the one about the needless complaining about the thread (and maybe a bit about the geript case), but I don't think that is enough to lynch him on. Most of your other points are just comparing him to other players, which is useless and futile. Artanis is not yamato, or rayn, or Sharrant, or me, or VE, or whoever else you compared him to. He's Artanis, and will play like Artanis, not anyone else.
And about the "fake" aggression, I just flat out disagree with that whole section. I took a look back at British since people were talking about it, and he does that same kind of thing as town. Calls out a post, then antagonizes people for disagreeing with him or not commenting on it. Then moved on or keeps pressuring it, as appropriate.
Overall, I'm not particularly interested in lynching Artanis today. Hard defense of Artanis. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 17:37 Keirathi wrote:Also, as an aside: Pretty sure Sharrant is scum. Look at these posts: On April 07 2013 06:43 Sharrant wrote:On April 07 2013 04:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever. Kill me then. I can't hunt scum while not a single person in the entire game is taking me seriously.
##Vote: RestrainingOrder Hi, Viscera. I'm pretty much null on your actions, so I want you to help me. Now, the reason I'm null on you is because I know I can't read you. Last game we played I thought I had a slam dunk case on you, and you were town. Now I might be reaching with this, but I want you to help me talk about Keirathi. See, just a short while ago there was talk about why Keirathi was scum, I think there're some really valid points in there. And I think a few others saw it too, but then suddenly the town was dragged off of this and into a spammy little brawl focused on antogonizing you and painting you as scum. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're not, but the way the thread has turned suggests to me you're not. This feels more to me like you're getting attacked the same way that caused Marvellosity to explode when he was town in a recent game. So I want you to talk to me about Keirathi, who after being called out has dissapeared after the cases on him, and I just want your opinion on Rayne because frankly I'm not quite sure how to read him. Do you think this could be mafia Keirathi's team trying to drag the town away from him after he got caught by causing a spammy mess on day 1? Do you think this is more likely town getting in an argument that is not indicative of Keirathi's alignment? And then your opinion on Keirathi himself and Rayne would be great., thank you. In the pre-game. I think he was actually trying here to do what he claimed was happening with me. I think he was trying to draw attention away from VE and give VE and out by pushing sentiment back towards me. On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. Deflecting away from Artanis. On April 08 2013 11:21 Sharrant wrote:@StrongandBig Hi! I'll try and give you a sort of stream of consciousness on this one, and hopefully that will actually help me figure out where I stand on him. I've read through his filter a few times and I always notice things that send me in opposite directions on his alignment. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:Okay duders, raid night is over. Going for a quick re-read of the past half day after I post this since I've been tabbing out to catch what I could during down time. First impressions: I saw that Oats is/was under some suspicion (just going from memory, don't recall if it was talked out or not) but Oats is Oats; he's a bit all over the place but I don't see the same intent to shut things down that someone mentioned earlier. He was just as loud and all-over in RED. Null still. RO seems to want to be more helpful than I remember him being as scum in LX, not feeling what you guys that are suspicious of him are feeling there, either. Got my eye on Rayn at the moment. His style was spammy but usually constructive (at least in telling us what he was thinking) and I've got none of that after the first couple pages of his filter. Ten one-liners in a row or something, doesn't match up to his standard attacking pattern from RED. The attacks there were thought-out, here they mostly look like casual accusations perhaps fishing for reactions? The only points he has going for him is that he's absolutely confused about what is going on regarding the draft process: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Should we have our roles by now? Rayn, if you are serious about RO being scum then lay if out for me in one clean concise post, and if you are not, who are you most suspicious of right now? Or are you just drunk again?
Other stuff: Most of the chat was about planning how to set up the top spots to get roles protected, is that still a thing? I'm spot 2 somehow, and I was thinking about taking America because America, fuck yeah! Is that going to make me a Pariah or something? Girls just wanna have fun, you know? I'll use it as a second lynch like was suggested yesterday or I can just sit on it if you guys are paranoid about it. Going back for that re-read and making some coffee. See you in a bit when I'm finished with that. PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! This post felt very airy, it certainly felt to me like a post that was primarily summation. There are some good questions in there, but there's no hard stances. The closest he comes to that is that he says he's got his eye on Rayn, but then never specifically says he was scummy. Points out he doesn't give fit his previous town meta, but then he gives him an out on it anyways saying that he might be fishing for reactions. I actually noticed something that really has me leaning towards scum on him now. He makes 2 posts specifically stating for people not to spam, and has several posts insulting BM for making small spammy posts with no content. I read this as townie when I first skimmed through his filter, but looking at it again There's something very wrong. + Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:25 ObviousOne wrote:.
PS: Seriously guys, the spam, cut it out, I decided to avoid large games because of the sheer volume of posts so please be less liberal with one-liners, thank you! On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. Look at his posts: + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:59 Restraining Order wrote:In fact, I'm just going to quote myself on this matter. On April 05 2013 11:30 Restraining Order wrote: Pick assassin and try to kill me with please.
That way I don't actually die to your stupidity.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll stop reading your posts henceforth. Wouldn't be a problem if you'd actually think I'm mafia I'll indulge your soft town claim for a moment and simply ask you why your list contains 9 people. If you can justify all 9 in some way at least we'll know whether or not you're talking the breeze with these myriad suspicions. On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. On April 06 2013 10:08 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:06 Restraining Order wrote:On April 06 2013 10:03 ObviousOne wrote: EBWOP: Oops, looks like I miscounted, make that 10. No, it's 9. I have no idea where VE got the Caller thing from, and it's sad you just take his word. If I've misread it please tell me how. It won't be the first time. I spent like 24 hours in Fruity misreading every little thing so just straighten me out instead of spitting in my face, thx. On April 06 2013 10:09 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 10:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I misread the quote-pyramid. He was saying he wanted to lynch Kier when I thought he was replying to Caller. My mistake. .... On April 06 2013 11:28 ObviousOne wrote: WTF are all these random ass reads BM? Is this what you always do? On April 06 2013 11:38 ObviousOne wrote:RIGHT ABOUT WHAT PLEASE TYPE MORE JESUS FUCK On April 06 2013 12:16 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 12:13 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 12:11 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 12:01 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 11:51 deconduo wrote:On April 06 2013 11:43 Bill Murray wrote: DECONDUO WHAT ARE YOUR READS ON WHO ARE WHAT? Palmar is afk, but that's normal.FoS Deconduo On April 05 2013 01:29 Palmar wrote: I always suck at PYP games because I find the role discussion so boring I skip it. PTP 1: 3 posts before Day 1 PTP 2: 8 posts before Day 1 PYP Redux: 7 posts before Day 1 PYP Boardwalk: 18 posts before Day 1 Unless you're saying he's less afk than normal, I don't know why you think I'm wrong. well i guess he doesnt play like me anymore You say that like it's a bad thing. On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? On April 06 2013 13:52 ObviousOne wrote:... not sure what to make of this but way to leave yourself open to accusations of a scum slip. Wow that's really bad looking. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:37 geript wrote:I figured out why I don't like the case on RestrainingOrder at all. In The Game, I got to watch both Bugs and Kita push absolute bullshit towards town's direct. It was well crafted bullshit, but bullshit none the less. VE's case is an exact example of this type of thing for a few reasons: 1. The townread/lynch stuff + Show Spoiler +On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So RO wants to lynch inside [Caller, Palmar, Decon, VE, Kierathi, Artanis, austin, OO, Vivax, sn0] before D1 starts. That's cool I guess, but some of those names sound familiar. Where have I seen those names before? ... Oh that's right. In that OTHER post where he made a list and said "4/5 are townies", he wants to lynch 3/5 of them. This is the exact type of thing that we as scum would jump on. Any little thing that we could catch where town fucked up, changed reads, etc. It's perfect to attack because it seems so simple and plausible. Town in general are not going to be filtering themselves constantly to see their positions, know where they stood on exact people, etc. Whereas as scum, we were quite often referencing ourselves to see what stances were plausible for us to take. I can't wholly ignore the possibility that RO may just be lazy scum, hell he lurked most of LX until his teammate shot him. However, it's stupid to think that this early on that scum would make a slip this big. It's far more likely to be bad/stupid town. This isn't particularly scummy. On April 06 2013 13:57 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [red]Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play?
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote: Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. town are more likely to flip flop than mafia On April 06 2013 13:29 ObviousOne wrote:On April 06 2013 13:26 ObviousOne wrote: ... Bill we went over this about the spamming -- you've got ~14 posts on this page alone.
Summarize your VE meta and compare it to this game and show me how he's so definitively town. In one post. On April 06 2013 13:26 Bill Murray wrote: meta Okay I'm laughing my ass off at this but really, three dot points or something. Substance, please. Who do you want to lynch D1? AustinMCC at this point is betraying his blue meta as a lurker that I've seen He had a plan that would help the mafia, too, in regards to town picking from the mafia role list It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the mafia have taken from more "town" roles than "mafia" ones By that token, I don't expect there is a Godfather So do you know who is mafia or are you saying AustinMCC is a town read of yours? ALL of those posts were one after another. They're spread out over 4 hours, but it's 11 posts that are almost entirely one liners, some without even any text. Yet he was saying don't spam, make good quality posts. Why wasn't he doing that too? + Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 08:24 ObviousOne wrote: Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too. On April 08 2013 09:58 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:54 Palmar wrote: I think it's mafia defending me, I look too scummy for townies to defend me.
why is there no machine gun role that can kill like 8 people on day 1, I'd have liked that.
Also there really is not enough killing this game. Bored Walk Empire Mafiyawn: Pull Your Pud =[ On April 08 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote: Undertaker 21-0 GG no RE On April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one. + Show Spoiler +He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all. So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: 1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote: New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: TLDR; - Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: - excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: KeirathiRegarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. hi sharrant i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together. that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game? Commercial break. Come at me bro. On April 08 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote: Mocsta. I love you dearly. Please make paragraphs.
Or
I'll
Do
This
Just
To
Explain
Why
It's
Annoying
And
Difficult
To
Read. On April 08 2013 10:52 ObviousOne wrote: @Mocsta
<3 never change Look at all the spam there. And the kicker, On April 08 2013 10:28 ObviousOne wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Mocsta wrote: Gonzaw Unrelated question.
Do you think I spamming up the thread?
I am asking because my last couple posts have all been big text walls; and not sure if Im getting my message across succinctly at the moment.
Who cares at this point. Give the lurkers a shit load of posts to read when they get back. Let them cry. Let them complain. They will sheep anyway. Your question wouldn't even be relevant if everyone was participating. Be the Mocsta we know and love. Fuck the haters. Straight up saying to spam. Call it a joke, or whatever, but that kind of conflicting mindset isn't townie. ##vote: ObviousOneYou can't stay in line with your own thinking at all, I think that's because you're scum. Chainsaw Artanis. But I think this is the kicker: On April 08 2013 12:45 Sharrant wrote: I'm pretty much 100% sure that that was an assassin kill. Gonzaw pretty much gave away his role earlier when he was figuring that he could withhold his shot today and have any possibility of surviving until the next day and being able to shoot. This makes Sinani look worse for fishing for his role now that it is fairly likely that scum have an assassin.
It is possible that he was day vigi'd, but that is much much less likely in my opinion. This was almost immediately after the gonzaw shot. At the time, Mocsta and I (and maybe a few others), were floundering a bit about what role killed gonzaw. In strolls Sharrant being 100% sure it was an assassin kill (and remember, he's been hard defending the actual assassin). Keep reading a bit after that and see how the rest of the conversation went down. He tried to flip it to make Mocsta scummy, and he seemed to have put an extraordinary amount of thought into gonzaw being Jack before he flipped for a "townie". So yea, Sharrant is scum. And with that, I sleeps. G'nite! Look at this. He thinks Sharrant is chainsawing onto OO but qualifies with: Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 17:42 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP:
1 last thing. I think we have 2 scum between Sharrant, sinani, and Vivax. Maybe OO.
I think our lynch candidates for the day should be out of them. I'm going to drop my vote on Sharrant and sinani, and we can talk tomorrow. But seems to be thinking OO is likely scum or knowing he is: Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 10:59 Keirathi wrote:On April 11 2013 10:53 geript wrote: Sharrant not likely scum. Shelvocke not likely scum. OO not likely scum. MZ is a big ?? Best lynch of those 4. Why not OO? You seem to be overly reliant on this "scum didn't double pick" heuristic. OO didn't double pick with anyone as far as I can tell. Earlier you said "There are likely exactly 2 scum within the people who picked 1-5", which includes OO, except you never talked about him again. Read his filter and tell me he gives an actual reason for suspecting OO on D2. On April 13 2013 05:37 geript wrote: If myself and BM die tonight, please nuke Kei. Kthnxbai Day starts - relevant quotes: On April 13 2013 12:09 geript wrote: So mocsta, what did you think of my points? On April 13 2013 12:30 Keirathi wrote: I checked BM.
He is scum.
##Vote: Bill Murray On April 13 2013 12:31 geript wrote: Well that makes this easy... Throw the Holy Hand Grenade at Bill Murray Keirathi, geript's main scumread, announces red check, and geript immediately kills him, saying it's easy. That doesn't make any sense. Geript clearly didn't have the balls to doubt the check of his main scumread, and that's extremely scummy. This case is really bad, but I'm not sure if that necessarily indicates that Vivax is mafia. Do you think so? I'm not looking into Vivax' alignment with this line of conversation. I never thought twice about what geript did, because despite his doubts about Keir's alignment, it's absolutely stupid to ignore a red check.
Plus, killing BM is a way of confirming Keir, to an extent.
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So geript is confirmed town, huh?
Lol.
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You seemed to be all fine with Oats when he was arguing that I am mafia.
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Vivax, I'm not geript, but that is unacceptable behavior.
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I'd rather see your flip than oats.
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On April 17 2013 08:13 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 08:08 yamato77 wrote: Vivax, I'm not geript, but that is unacceptable behavior. It's not, telling him my opinion about his play is acceptable, you can get at me when I start swearing and calling him names. His reads since D1 with his VE-push were pure garbage and that's a fact. Him pushing all claimed DTs and always being wrong is another fact.
On April 17 2013 08:05 Vivax wrote: Like, you're so bad geript, you didn't see OO being scum when he was right in front of you and neglect me contributing among the first to his lynch, you've been pushing for lynches on all claimed DTs and still aren't able to realize that your reads are simply shit and that you don't question them enough, and you're throwing away the only chance you've left to narrow down the suspects cause you're so derp.
Go on
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Lol, listening to Vivax is a fatal mistake.
These association cases are terrible when we have confirmed evidence that mafia have been bussing this game.
Get real, people.
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Why is shelvocke "just a lurker" this late in the game with 3 out of the 200 pages of posts in the thread?
Shouldn't that tell you something?
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Has he posted enough content to reliably judge him on?
Do you think that's intentional or not?
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>_________________________>
<_________________________<
Tonight, I'm going to analyze all you people. One of you is mafia. I will know who by lynch time tomorrow.
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Turns out I slept for ten hours.
Eh, whatever, you guys are smart enough to figure it out. Shelvocke is le mafia.
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So you're confirming your "Vivax is teh best lynch" with the idea that he's tryharding today?
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All I've learned from this game is that I can be the towniest fuck in the game and still somehow people want to lynch me at some point.
Lol.
I'm taking a REAL break from mafia now.
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The post where you guys break down town is hilariously accurate:
17. yamato77 - seems to be reaching for information anywhere he can get it outside of talking to people, might be a byproduct of mocsta being a bully
Like I said, it got old very quickly.
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I'd like to think I drove the discussions that gave you those townreads in the early game. I tryharded the pick phase just because I knew it would help a lot in that area.
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On April 18 2013 13:49 geript wrote: I think I need to follow and track my town reads more. Yeah, I think most people could.
It is funny though, when I look back at my reads during day 2/3, I see myself being right on all my townreads, and reaching the correct conclusion that both OO and Shelvocke were likely mafia.
Notably, I was also correctly suspicious of BM because I knew something was fishy when someone was afraid of claiming Justice Vigi.
I was wrong about M_Z and Sinani on D2, but they were both in the same sort of "nullish" category as the rest. This was also before sinani's claim and his actions that let us ignore him for all intents and purposes.
D1 my reads were meh, but I sheeped gonzaw at the right time for the right reasons. Me moving my vote off Artanis came at a time when most of the thread started doubting him, so I don't feel that bad about it.
Palmar/Caller/Gonzaw all MVP-worthy, IMO.
Keir also carried lategame until he died, so props to him, too.
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Yeah, what the fuck was that?
SO many people shat on plans, and almost all of them were town, when every plan discussed would have helped town win the game.
Just because it's "setup talk" does not make it worthless, especially in this game.
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Syllo is working from the position that the current TL metagame is town-favoured; you need to give town less pieces of the puzzle, rather than more.
I tend to agree, personally.
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Yeah, BM's claim was weak. If he'd had a strong explanation for his claim losing its drawback for some reason, he could have been "confirmed town" for a while.
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Well, Dandel, next time you have the urge to call everyone in the thread stupid while you're still alive in the game, channel that into making good analysis in a well thought out post and perhaps you can change the thread atmosphere.
Reading that QT was painful, because you called everyone bad and dumb but you did nothing to help whatsoever. I told people in thread why I felt the way I did and attempted to get them to think more rationally. Only difference being, everyone just called me mafia for no good reason so they don't listen to me. You being semi-confirmed through masoning gave you a position to talk town out of arguing with each other endlessly, but instead of doing that you just shit-talked in your QT like you were obsing the game.
Maybe I'm just too angry about this game in general, but reading that after going through this game just rubbed me the wrong way. I know I argued with people in the game, and quite a bit. I'm making an active effort to be less abrasive. What did you do to change thread atmosphere? If anything, your condescending attitude only made it worse.
Whatever, I'm going to stop here. I've been scalded for acting superior to the thread, and rightly so. Take responsibility for your role in the game.
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Just make an effort to be less abrasive, and it will help improve. You don't have to not care about the game for it to not frustrate you.
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I'll just kill you any time you're ever masoned with anyone and let the mods sort you out.
A VE in PMs is a VE I don't trust.
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I very accurately ascertained your alignment early on in Hydra, so don't lie.
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