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On April 08 2013 02:45 deconduo wrote:
Seeing as you are having trouble with this Vivax:
-I think X is scummy
-Y votes for X
You seem to think that means I should assume Y is town. This obviously completely wrong. There is nothing stopping Y being scum and X being town.
Your own read should be stopping X from being town from your perspective. But you still mentioned it, and that's what I'm holding against you currently. Attacking people for jumping on a bandwagon against your scumread in that way doesn't seem to be one of the objectives you would have if you had S & B really as scum, cause you mentioned an argument for my play being potentially scummy.
An argument that should only concern you if I were joining a bandwagon against someone you don't think to be scum, and not against a scumbuddy.
Should I ever see more reasons to think you're scum, I'll bring this up again cause it's a valid point in my opinion. But for now, I'm not expecting you to reply to this, cause you won't be able to dissuade me from this argument.
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On April 08 2013 02:37 austinmcc wrote:
show that you DID miss the point, at least what I pick up as the point of decon's post. It doesn't matter that he agrees with you on snb, and you know full well that sometimes, someone agreeing with you on a read but in a way you don't like may indicate that they are scum and your read is town and scum sees a good opportunity to move in on building a scumread/causing a mislynch. So the fact you both have snb as scummy shouldn't mean you don't get questioned at all. At least to some extent, you missed that bit, based on how I read your posts.
I missed this. It's a good explanation, puts me better into the perspective. I'll wait to see more from Decon I guess, but I still found it odd for the aforementioned reasons. Guess I'll lay back a little and look for other stuff.
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I'm willing to give S & B slack now, if he has rl issues. But if he can't play the game properly on the long term cause of those he should rather opt for a replacement. Being a wildcard doesn't help town.
Gonzaw, took a look through Artanis filter and his defense to your case, but I don't see stuff striking me as scummy. I thought he was scum in British for his defensive play, and the smaller posts can be explained through the lower motivation in a big game like he explained.
You also mention a thing in your case where Artanis called out geript for giving out a controversial opinion to geript:
I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find.
You don't believe he is serious with it, but it does indeed look...controversial from geript to have written that thing. I don't think you can hold that against Artanis for example outside of your belief that he wasn't serious with it.
Or calling his aggressive behaviour fake. I don't see why you arbitrarily call it either aggressive or fake.
I don't know if there's just a lot of confirmation bias in that case, gonzaw, but it didn't convince me, tbh it looks like you added too many extras to it :o[
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On April 08 2013 05:21 deconduo wrote:
Not really feeling the case on Artanis at the moment.
I've just read over Sno's filter from the 3 Newbie games he was in. First of all, he posted a shitload more in the first two games he played. He was active, he made good cases and generally played well. He was town in both games.
In his third game he subbed in as scum about 2/3 of the way through. He posted a lot less than his first two games, and got lynched pretty quickly. However as this was a sub-in I wouldn't put too much weight in this. He also still posted a hell of a lot more than he has so far this game.
I'd be almost willing to vote him on this alone, but it could be some RL reasons keeping him from posting.
Only one way to find out, let's hold hands and call him to us.
##Vote Sno_Man
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Gonzaw, for a start, ask that mofo sinani why he only shows up when you claim vig to tell you to shoot BM. Force him to make a case cause his entrance just now was ugh. It was his first post since quite a lot of time when it shouldn't have been such a post.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote:
I first want to say that this thread is spammed up to almost the point of unreadable... This is not how Town wins games. Secondly, out of the current lynch candidates, here are my opinions:
VisceraEyes: I was leaning scum before and he hasn't really done anything to change my mind besides participating a little bit more. To be on the safe side, I'll say null with a red tinge.
Keirathi: Null atm, nothing pointing him at being scum, but don't want to say definitely townie so soon. I just played in RTP with him and he seems to be playing rather similarly, so if I had to pick I'd say town.
Restraining Order: Very difficult to read, so I'll wait to see more of him and on him.
StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
##Vote: StrongandBig
And I would also like to add that I don't like people who mention their null reads for no reason, except maybe for looking like they're doing more than they actually are. This post is a good example of that, and he also keeps a nice balance here.
Town, null, null with a red tinge and scum. But asks you to shoot BM who isn't among these.
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On April 08 2013 07:37 gonzaw wrote:
Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot you :/
Artanis is not the type who should be shot cause he does give a fuck about his image (as opposed to RO, for example). Go for trolls and lurky stuff.
Sno_Man, RO, Sinani, Caller. Not sure about BM but at least activity doesn't seem to be much of a concern lol. Not gonna cry over those if you shoot them.
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Did you guys even read which targets gonzaw considered for the shot? It wasn't Artanis, those were Shelvocke and Sno_Man.
RO either doesn't read or uses a WIFOM argument on a wrong base without considering all other options.
This is how gonzaw wanted to use his role initially:
I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_>
I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/
I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well.
I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno.
So if you gotta ride the WIFOM-train, putting it all onto Artanis is scummy as shit. See RO for details.
I want to lynch into RO, Sno, maybe Shelvocke, but need to get to a conclusion first, I found him kinda scummy earlier on. Sinani also looks bad. This is a big game, scum can hide, everyone having their eyes on the most active dudes should think twice about lynching them.
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It's a double-edged sword, it tells scum where they don't have to shoot and is not reliable towards townies. Everyone can lie about being a VT while having a role. If anything it's a bad idea.
I'm also considering VE for lynch currently, I didn't see anything of what he promised so far, and his pushes are less than half-assed.
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If Caller shoots Artanis I'm not opting for anything but his lynch until he's dead.
I will admit that geript's claim was useful though. But that's a special case.
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On April 08 2013 23:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:49 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn
i saw your vote for VE.
Lay it out for me hunny I forgot to vote him earlier in the actual voting thread. I think he is really unproductive and before the game started (during picking/drafing phase) he had really bad ideas that couldn't work. He's not doing anything and with the NRA thing on the table it makes him even more scummy because i know at least i am not the NRA guy. I don't want to lynch Artanis, i don't think he is scummy. He didn't push his idea to the fullest but noone who were giving out ideas didn't do it. It was really obvious no idea was going to work because ~3/4 of the players straight out refused to contribute anything on the ideas.
Giving out your opinion on Artanis after Caller seemingly shot him is pretty useless, and scummy. Will you lynch Caller if Artanis flips green or not?That's what matters.
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Artanis let's talk reads, why should we be lynching Shelvocke over Sno_man?
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On April 09 2013 00:02 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:58 Ghor wrote:On April 08 2013 23:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 23:49 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn
i saw your vote for VE.
Lay it out for me hunny I forgot to vote him earlier in the actual voting thread. I think he is really unproductive and before the game started (during picking/drafing phase) he had really bad ideas that couldn't work. He's not doing anything and with the NRA thing on the table it makes him even more scummy because i know at least i am not the NRA guy. I don't want to lynch Artanis, i don't think he is scummy. He didn't push his idea to the fullest but noone who were giving out ideas didn't do it. It was really obvious no idea was going to work because ~3/4 of the players straight out refused to contribute anything on the ideas. Giving out your opinion on Artanis after Caller seemingly shot him is pretty useless, and scummy. Will you lynch Caller if Artanis flips green or not?That's what matters. Nope VE lynched today.. hes basically unkillable day or night (if NRA.. which as SnB pointed out seems likely based on his playstyle of trying to draw that attention)
That is too speculative at this stage. Use orthodox arguments please. We don't know if he has NRA, we don't know if geript's claim is true, we don't know why he doesn't post much (he's not posting much either in a parallel game).
I don't like how VE is playing but he's not the first guy I'd lynch today I think. RO, Sinani and Sno are my favourite targets.
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And Caller if he isn't bluffing and Artanis flips green.
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Well for what it's worth, Rayn, you never gave a fuck about Artanis up to this point, so if anything you spitting out a townread in this situation just makes you look worse and seeking for cred. If you really thought Artanis was town you'd not be that careless about Caller's shot.
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On April 09 2013 00:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:12 Vivax wrote:
Well for what it's worth, Rayn, you never gave a fuck about Artanis up to this point, so if anything you spitting out a townread in this situation just makes you look worse and seeking for cred. If you really thought Artanis was town you'd not be that careless about Caller's shot. I havn't given a fuck about anything up to this point. I was reading VE's filter te see if there was anything that would change my mind on him. I then looked at Artanis and gave my thoughts about him aswell. I had no real stance on VE/Artanis before i finished reading the filters. If it makes me scummy that Caller shot or "shot" him before i was able to put up a post that contributes to the situation and actually gives out my real thoughts so be it. Why do you want to kill Caller if Artanis flips green? Why is it impossible that Caller is town and has a strong scum read on Artanis and he is just wrong about it?
Cause we don't know if Caller plays like an idiot cause he's mafia or is genuinely an idiot.
Since there is this huge fallacy in people's minds that you must not lynch anything that looks like blatant obvious anti-town-shit, you are forced do exactly that even if it goes against your WIFOM-sense.
Caller's actions had nothing townie about them, so we lynch him if Artanis flips green. Artanis is a terrible vig target cause he attempts to make himself readable. That's why vigs are supposed to shoot trolls and lurkers, they just might not give a fuck about getting lynched and wasting 48 hours discussing nothing while waiting for their death does not help anybody.
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Question:
Before Caller claimed a shot:
[spoiler]
On April 05 2013 11:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:51 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 10:10 gonzaw wrote:On April 05 2013 06:00 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On April 05 2013 04:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
3 scum reads:
Caller, RO, Oats. Why On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote:
this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw yes Gonzaw would you mind telling me what you think of oats, artanis, sharrant, and decondou? Would like to hear someone else's thoughts. Yo how about YOU tell me what you think of them? You can't force the wise man to do your bidding, he forces you to do his, and then enlightens you or punishes you accordingly  I have to agree with yamato on Oats. Makes little sense for scum Oats to "intentionally disrupt" town like this in the drafting phase for no reason (if he's scum), rather than doing so when it matters to them: The Day phase. No reason to call him scum right now, wait until the game actually "matters" to state so. So you 5 guys are you sending the 1-5 draft choices? If so it may be better to claim so you don't clash between each other, and so you can convince other people not to take those as well (I already changed my number). I guess it's too late though, meh. I initially had a pretty bad feeling about oats, however he's just been too loud for me to think he's scum at this point. I'm rather suspicious of artanis, I actually wanted an opinion on sharrant because I have him as a complete null, and decondou was a red herring which I threw out on a whim. In hindsight you'd be too smart to go for it as scum anyway  currently I have rayn as probable town since I've learned that the most annoying people tend to be town. That being said, I also really don't think RO is scummy. Also for the record, I'm not trying to force a wise man to do my bidding, just wanna check in with someone who completely played me before :D Oats is bad town or scum. Artanis is .. hmm.. idk..sharrant almost definitely town. deconduo, leaning on scum at him. RO = scum. kill him <3
After Caller claimed the shot:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 08 2013 23:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:49 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn
i saw your vote for VE.
Lay it out for me hunny I forgot to vote him earlier in the actual voting thread. I think he is really unproductive and before the game started (during picking/drafing phase) he had really bad ideas that couldn't work. He's not doing anything and with the NRA thing on the table it makes him even more scummy because i know at least i am not the NRA guy. I don't want to lynch Artanis, i don't think he is scummy. He didn't push his idea to the fullest but noone who were giving out ideas didn't do it. It was really obvious no idea was going to work because ~3/4 of the players straight out refused to contribute anything on the ideas. On April 09 2013 00:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:01 Vivax wrote:On April 08 2013 23:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 23:49 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn
i saw your vote for VE.
Lay it out for me hunny I forgot to vote him earlier in the actual voting thread. I think he is really unproductive and before the game started (during picking/drafing phase) he had really bad ideas that couldn't work. He's not doing anything and with the NRA thing on the table it makes him even more scummy because i know at least i am not the NRA guy. I don't want to lynch Artanis, i don't think he is scummy. He didn't push his idea to the fullest but noone who were giving out ideas didn't do it. It was really obvious no idea was going to work because ~3/4 of the players straight out refused to contribute anything on the ideas. Giving out your opinion on Artanis after Caller seemingly shot him is pretty useless, and scummy. Will you lynch Caller if Artanis flips green or not?That's what matters. I don't know if Caller actually shot him because there is nothing that implies so at least yet. And no, i will not lynch Caller if he shot Artanis and he flips green. On April 09 2013 00:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:12 Vivax wrote:
Well for what it's worth, Rayn, you never gave a fuck about Artanis up to this point, so if anything you spitting out a townread in this situation just makes you look worse and seeking for cred. If you really thought Artanis was town you'd not be that careless about Caller's shot. I havn't given a fuck about anything up to this point. I was reading VE's filter te see if there was anything that would change my mind on him. I then looked at Artanis and gave my thoughts about him aswell. I had no real stance on VE/Artanis before i finished reading the filters. If it makes me scummy that Caller shot or "shot" him before i was able to put up a post that contributes to the situation and actually gives out my real thoughts so be it. Why do you want to kill Caller if Artanis flips green? Why is it impossible that Caller is town and has a strong scum read on Artanis and he is just wrong about it?
Background: Artanis had him as scum but didn't interact with him since declaring it, and neither did Rayn. No followup in pushing him from Artanis.
Artanis' read on Rayn:
Raynpelikoneet
Contradicted my RNG plan without a real reason. Nominates himself as towniest very quickly. Calls everyone that pushed ideas town. Randomly passes by scumreads whilst only having talked about setup before then, doesn't explain why. Massive amount of oneliners that clutter up the thread and say very little/nothing. His paranoia and flailing about in the last two pages of his filter make me hesitant, but still leaning scum.
Can you see these being scum interactions or just plain WIFOM?
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On April 09 2013 05:19 geript wrote:
I definitely can see Austin as scum. Look at how many times he defends both VE and Artanis. Off the top of my head this reminds me of his game in IIRC personality 2. I also utilized him a decent amount in my first newbie game here; I don't have a great understanding of his mindset, but I'm not terribly remembering a similar mindset here.
##FOS austinmcc
I do somewhat suspect him too cause he seemed to dodge the artanis/VE issue (albeit referring to it at some point I can't remember).
He is able to produce monumental amounts of text so it's pretty hard to get over it and conclude he could be scum just for the amount of stuff he posts.
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On April 09 2013 05:31 Palmar wrote:
also shame on the people who were going to back off artanis when gonzaw was shot for calling him scum.
I still claim that it has no weight as reason alone. Gonzaw's case instead seemed to be spot on. Even after going through Artanis filter I believe I'd not have thought he'd be scum anytime soon, if he survived.
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On April 09 2013 06:04 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Austin: Vivax e-famous for making no sense
You gonna get raped
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EPT
