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On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere.
I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/
spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting
+ Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting
+ Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen.
I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw.
23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action.
23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc.
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On April 01 2013 03:18 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 02:59 sciberbia wrote:On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere. I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/ spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen. I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw. 23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action. 23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc. 23+1 silent is no different than 24 from a player perspective. That's why GreY and I did that. Either the players have to be online at hour 23, or they have to be online at hour 24. What's the difference? 23+1 non-silent is terrible and should never be used, unless you were playing Last Will and Testament perhaps.
23 +1 silent removes the possibility of writing a last will that mafia cannot see before deciding their NK. So for any VT that just wants to give some "last reads" during the night, there is no obligation to be online at any particular time using 23 +1 silent.
But under 24 hour night, it would benefit them to wait until the final seconds. So there is an obligation for them to be online at a particular time.
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On April 01 2013 03:40 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 03:35 sciberbia wrote:On April 01 2013 03:18 iGrok wrote:On April 01 2013 02:59 sciberbia wrote:On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere. I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/ spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen. I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw. 23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action. 23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc. 23+1 silent is no different than 24 from a player perspective. That's why GreY and I did that. Either the players have to be online at hour 23, or they have to be online at hour 24. What's the difference? 23+1 non-silent is terrible and should never be used, unless you were playing Last Will and Testament perhaps. 23 +1 silent removes the possibility of writing a last will that mafia cannot see before deciding their NK. So for any VT that just wants to give some "last reads" during the night, there is no obligation to be online at any particular time using 23 +1 silent. I don't understand? If the night was 23+1 silent, why wouldn't the townies just make their last will posts at 22.999 instead of the 23.999 they do on 24 hour nights? Scum still can't change their night actions in the 1 extra hour.
Oh I guess I misunderstood. I thought 23 +1 silent meant actions can still be changed in the last hour.
E: I think there is some merit to this because it removes the "race conditions" inherent in the 24 hour system. But yea if actions can't be changed then I guess it is essentially the same as 24 hour night, but just a bit easier on the host.
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EPT
