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On February 15 2013 01:55 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +If you were town, you would be voting/giving town reads for real reasons, not something you just made up that sounded good. How about, NOPE? You clearly agree with me on the BH read, so I dont know what your problem is there, even if I justified it with general reasoning rather than specific to BH. Also, I was right on Hassybaby. He was more active and useful in Parallel than in here by a LARGE margin.
AFAIK I never said I agreed with your read on BH. I think BH is quite capable of making the posts he has so far as either alignment. In fact, in the game you are so fond of referencing, BH was quite comfortable attempting to push a lynch on yamato for terrible, easily refutable reasoning.
For the moment, I am actually leaning toward BH town, but very marginally.
Also, I still disagree about Hassy. You said "really active". He posted in spurts. He would have days where he had 5-6 posts, then days where he had 25 posts.
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On February 15 2013 02:14 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 02:09 iamperfection wrote:On February 15 2013 02:07 austinmcc wrote:I don't love saying Hassy was more active "by a large margin," but for reference: Hassy's filter from the world he started out in in Parallel mafiaAt least within his D1, he's actively reading both threads. He discusses the general plan of who to swap where. He asks Foolishness, who was in the other thread, some questions concerning Foolishness's posts. When Darkfire posts his weird claim, Hassy questions Darkfire. When Dieno is being lynched (and after lynch), he's trying to draw conclusions from what was happening. A lot of his activity was on that first day, and it somewhat tailed off afterwards. I would like to see hassy more active, but I don't currently want to vote him as #1. then who do you want to kill the most? I started a post saying gonzaw, but I don't think that's my choice. Pretty sure I'm overvaluing LIX in being willing to lynch him, because there I didn't put enough stock in his activity. Here, he was momentarily Gonzaw after being called out, and then went back to being nothing. That's the same pattern that I didn't value enough in LIX, but the circumstances are also different in that he had a red check there and no red check here. What I would really like is for Sylencia or Cheesecake to show up and be able to chat with them for like 20 minutes.
I could possibly get behind gonzaw. At first I was against it, but I went back and read Aperture 2 compared to WLIIA. In Aperture, he was thinking about everyone, giving thoughts about everyone, hopping around all over the place. In WLIIA, he focused in on one person (me), and spent the entirety of his time alive talking about me and why I was scum, with very few references towards questioning or commenting on other people.
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On February 15 2013 02:20 austinmcc wrote:
Keirathi, take a look at randombum if you would, and let me know when you've looked. I'd like to discuss him, but I've been less active here so I'll give my thoughts first and see where you're at.
I don't really know how to read him. But, his opening play this game has been fairly similar to his opening posting in Parallel. Some blendy policy talk, into an OMGUS vote on the first person the call him out. Not really much to go on, and I thought he was scum in Parallel for quite a while.
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On February 15 2013 02:34 austinmcc wrote:Blech, I'll go reread him in parallel. Have no real memory of him there, tbh.
When I read over people that are on the periphery of this game, he sticks out to me. I actually agreed with Gonzaw's statement that randombum's posts were "neutral." This bit of his post on Oats/BH - Show nested quote +If you read Oats statement from the point of view where its already decided by town to pick instant majority, (which I think this town has.) then his reasoning makes sense is pretty much the most unique thing I've seen out of his posts. Granted, I liked the thought, but the rest is mush. He has scumreads on oats and gonzaw, his only real reads given, but this is at a time where oats has already been called out and gonzaw has as well. To some extent, he admits as much, noting that others have pointed out his Oats issues. At the end of his filter he's on stutters, who everyone has the same thoughts about because there aren't any other thoughts to be had. It just reads like empty space except for the one line about oats's thoughts and one response to some gonzaw pressure. But even the gonzaw defense is like..."i didn't call you scum, just said you weren't contributing" and things like that. It's his biggest post, but yet doesn't say anything, and reinforces the mush because in some cases he's actively defending himself against gonzaw by saying "No, I said something much more bland than the interpretation you're taking." I will go check parallel.
Right, I agree with your sentiments. But he also did the same things in Parallel. He was very much a non-factor for most of the game, but people just kept calling town because it was Palmar (and marv, too?) he was OMGUS'ing and sticking his neck out against.
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I was looking mostly at his day 1 posting. I didn't keep reading past that.
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On February 15 2013 03:54 austinmcc wrote:
Is filtering the thing you can't do? This may be a bad phonepost question.
You can do anything on a phone that you can do on the forums. Its just way more annoying.
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On February 15 2013 04:38 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 02:18 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 02:14 austinmcc wrote:On February 15 2013 02:09 iamperfection wrote:On February 15 2013 02:07 austinmcc wrote:I don't love saying Hassy was more active "by a large margin," but for reference: Hassy's filter from the world he started out in in Parallel mafiaAt least within his D1, he's actively reading both threads. He discusses the general plan of who to swap where. He asks Foolishness, who was in the other thread, some questions concerning Foolishness's posts. When Darkfire posts his weird claim, Hassy questions Darkfire. When Dieno is being lynched (and after lynch), he's trying to draw conclusions from what was happening. A lot of his activity was on that first day, and it somewhat tailed off afterwards. I would like to see hassy more active, but I don't currently want to vote him as #1. then who do you want to kill the most? I started a post saying gonzaw, but I don't think that's my choice. Pretty sure I'm overvaluing LIX in being willing to lynch him, because there I didn't put enough stock in his activity. Here, he was momentarily Gonzaw after being called out, and then went back to being nothing. That's the same pattern that I didn't value enough in LIX, but the circumstances are also different in that he had a red check there and no red check here. What I would really like is for Sylencia or Cheesecake to show up and be able to chat with them for like 20 minutes. I could possibly get behind gonzaw. At first I was against it, but I went back and read Aperture 2 compared to WLIIA. In Aperture, he was thinking about everyone, giving thoughts about everyone, hopping around all over the place. In WLIIA, he focused in on one person (me), and spent the entirety of his time alive talking about me and why I was scum, with very few references towards questioning or commenting on other people. Considering town Keirathi from WLIIA, this seems too "passive" from you. If you thought I was scum you wouldn't show hesitation to call me out, yet here you just post some stuff that to me even seems rehashed from other times I've played with you if I recall correctly, and don't even seem to have anything to do with this game (you just said how I played in both Aperture and in WLIIA and that's it, you make no conclusion at all)
Let's take a look, shall we?
One of your big posts about me in WLIAA:
On November 01 2012 12:26 gonzaw wrote:
Hmm....
Don't really know what to think of this (Keirathi basically wants people to check him out?).
Keirathi why do you want BH to comment on the stuff I said about you?
You are playing differently that in previous games I've played with you, and you still don't seem to contribute anything of your own other than slightly "pressure" some people (Chezinu and BH now apparently).
If you are town you would really need to step up your game, because it's making me hard to think of you as a townie that cares about this game right now.
That comment of yours seems weird for a scum to make....but damn I've seen scum post weird comments before (even in our last game) so I don't really want to take it into account, at least if you don't contribute or do something other than appear you are active by posting every once and then.
In Aperture Mafia 2 you were like confirmed town in my mind in very very little time by the way you posted, and in Can't Believe I remember you being part of discussions and stuff early on (even if you were "fluffy" or wishy-washy at times which made me FoS you initially...but you became pretty "obvious" town in D2 and D3). I don't see you doing either here, you are not even close to making me consider you town which is what makes me worried as well.
And another:
On November 02 2012 01:51 gonzaw wrote:
So, damn; I think Keirathi is the most likely scum out of all of them.Oh fuck this post restriction I won't make it in time.
He has done 0 scumhunting at all this day other than making "probing" questions to players like Chezinu or BH. He wasn't part of any discussion, and worst of all didn't seem to care. He didn't even seem to care to defend himself against my points.
Again, the main point is that he doesn't care about the game and is not contributing.
Again, in Aperture 2 or even Can't Believe, he was part of every discussion and would have never acted like he's doing here at all.
Yeah I think he should be today's lynch. But fuck I won't be around here for that, so I hope you guys can make something out of this D1.
You were attacking me for being passive and not having definitive reads, just probing around. So, if I was doing that in that game, and doing it in this game, why am I actually scum this time?
And also, I beg to differ that I didn't come to a conclusion. I said I would be up for lynching you, then gave an example of your town play and your scum play. Obviously if I thought you were town, I wouldn't want to lynch you. Therefore the obvious implication was that I think you have a good chance of being scum.
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On February 15 2013 05:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
The duck question seems like nefarious trickery.
Clearly, no man in his right mind would pick Duck 1.
Therefore, there must be a deeper level to the riddle.
I would pick duck 1. That scar is obviously a battle scar from when Godzilla surprised him in his hideout. And you can obviously see he lived to tell the tale. Any duck that can survive Godzilla can totes survive a lame gangster.
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On February 15 2013 06:12 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 05:01 Keirathi wrote:
You were attacking me for being passive and not having definitive reads, just probing around. So, if I was doing that in that game, and doing it in this game, why am I actually scum this time?
And also, I beg to differ that I didn't come to a conclusion. I said I would be up for lynching you, then gave an example of your town play and your scum play. Obviously if I thought you were town, I wouldn't want to lynch you. Therefore the obvious implication was that I think you have a good chance of being scum. Your "analysis" in your post was fluff, you just said how I acted in Aperture and how I acted in WLIIA, without forming any connection with this game at all. You think I'm acting like WLIIA? If so why didn't you post anything about it in that post? Why didn't you go deeper into it? Also I dunno if you are scum this time, that's what I want to find out.
My analysis wasn't fluff though. Obviously I think are playing like you played in WLIIA, or I wouldn't have said "Yea, I would be down to lynch gonzaw". I don't really see what part of that you don't comprehend.
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@austin:
How does that compare to what a town iamp, specifically, would do?
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On February 15 2013 06:25 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:22 Keirathi wrote:
@austin:
How does that compare to what a town iamp, specifically, would do? Off the top of my head, I can only give the you the best answer I've got - I don't know, actually. The only specific thing I remember about scum iamp is that he's more than willing to vote early. I have not refreshed my mind by reading any past games, although I remember him as scum in GSL Open III.
Well I'll share, because I think he has a very interesting playstyle.
Town iamp is quite capable of doing all those things you outlined. He says whatever pops in his head, randomly calls people our, and hardly ever is a major voice in getting someone lynched. He's a follower not a leader, but he does have unique viewpoints and opinions.
The major way to tell the difference between scum iamp and town iamp, though, is in his attitude. Town iamp just doesn't give a fuck. He will literally say anything that pops into his head, doesn't care how it makes him look. He doesn't apologize for it, or take things back, or hold his tongue. Scum iamp on the other hand is CAREFUL. Maybe that's not the best word for it, but I think it describes it perfectly. He tries not to make sure he pisses anyone off, he isn't as free and easy with his thoughts, and he's even less aggressive than normal.
Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion.
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On February 15 2013 06:33 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:32 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:25 austinmcc wrote:On February 15 2013 06:22 Keirathi wrote:
@austin:
How does that compare to what a town iamp, specifically, would do? Off the top of my head, I can only give the you the best answer I've got - I don't know, actually. The only specific thing I remember about scum iamp is that he's more than willing to vote early. I have not refreshed my mind by reading any past games, although I remember him as scum in GSL Open III. Well I'll share, because I think he has a very interesting playstyle. Town iamp is quite capable of doing all those things you outlined. He says whatever pops in his head, randomly calls people our, and hardly ever is a major voice in getting someone lynched. He's a follower not a leader, but he does have unique viewpoints and opinions. The major way to tell the difference between scum iamp and town iamp, though, is in his attitude. Town iamp just doesn't give a fuck. He will literally say anything that pops into his head, doesn't care how it makes him look. He doesn't apologize for it, or take things back, or hold his tongue. Scum iamp on the other hand is CAREFUL. Maybe that's not the best word for it, but I think it describes it perfectly. He tries not to make sure he pisses anyone off, he isn't as free and easy with his thoughts, and he's even less aggressive than normal. Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion. My inclinations are opposite. Interesting.
Like I said, some of his early posts (particularly the ones to me and you, two the people who know him best), and his posts in the last hour or so fit with what I expect to see from town iamp. A lot of his stuff in the middle just doesn't have that "zing" though.
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On February 15 2013 06:36 austinmcc wrote:
(Also I'll note that we went through this whole song and dance about reading iamperfection in GSL III, where he was scum and iirc you found him to be his town self. Heck, he was asking you to read him so he could show how townie he was. At the very least, BECAUSE this exact same thing has come up before with half of this playerbase, he KNOWS what you're looking for, and he's fooled you before. I think basing a vote purely off meta here is da poo poo).
Given a sample of his posts, looking at just those games and not others because I don't really feel the need to go super duper far on this, we're looking at a pretty high confidence interval for pegging him as scum, imo.
I AM MANGLING SOME OF THESE THINGS SO BAD. I HOPE IT HURTS, ROLE CREATOR. I HOPE IT HURTS.
Not sure if you're talking to me. I wasn't in GSL 3, but I was happy to hop on the iamp lynch in GSL 2 because he couldn't keep his townie persona up while marv was getting lynched,
The only time I've ever been wrong about iamp's alignment once I made a final decision was Aperture 2, and I was basing that off of 3 posts just because he was on the lynching block.
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On February 15 2013 06:42 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:40 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:36 austinmcc wrote:
(Also I'll note that we went through this whole song and dance about reading iamperfection in GSL III, where he was scum and iirc you found him to be his town self. Heck, he was asking you to read him so he could show how townie he was. At the very least, BECAUSE this exact same thing has come up before with half of this playerbase, he KNOWS what you're looking for, and he's fooled you before. I think basing a vote purely off meta here is da poo poo).
Given a sample of his posts, looking at just those games and not others because I don't really feel the need to go super duper far on this, we're looking at a pretty high confidence interval for pegging him as scum, imo.
I AM MANGLING SOME OF THESE THINGS SO BAD. I HOPE IT HURTS, ROLE CREATOR. I HOPE IT HURTS. Not sure if you're talking to me. I wasn't in GSL 3, but I was happy to hop on the iamp lynch in GSL 2 because he couldn't keep his townie persona up while marv was getting lynched, The only time I've ever been wrong about iamp's alignment once I made a final decision was Aperture 2, and I was basing that off of 3 posts just because he was on the lynching block. You were in GSL 3. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602GSL 2 was the super shitty one, and you weren't in it, at least D1. If you look at you and iamperfection in GSL 3, he was actively asking you to tell everyone his alignment, because you could read him so well.
Oh, I got them confused. You're right.
Yes, iamp was asking me to give a read on him. And notice I refused to commit to the read, BECAUSE he was asking so hard.
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On February 15 2013 06:45 iamperfection wrote:
Keir am I town or scum go.
On February 15 2013 06:32 Keirathi wrote:
Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion.
On February 15 2013 06:37 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:33 marvellosity wrote:On February 15 2013 06:32 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:25 austinmcc wrote:On February 15 2013 06:22 Keirathi wrote:
@austin:
How does that compare to what a town iamp, specifically, would do? Off the top of my head, I can only give the you the best answer I've got - I don't know, actually. The only specific thing I remember about scum iamp is that he's more than willing to vote early. I have not refreshed my mind by reading any past games, although I remember him as scum in GSL Open III. Well I'll share, because I think he has a very interesting playstyle. Town iamp is quite capable of doing all those things you outlined. He says whatever pops in his head, randomly calls people our, and hardly ever is a major voice in getting someone lynched. He's a follower not a leader, but he does have unique viewpoints and opinions. The major way to tell the difference between scum iamp and town iamp, though, is in his attitude. Town iamp just doesn't give a fuck. He will literally say anything that pops into his head, doesn't care how it makes him look. He doesn't apologize for it, or take things back, or hold his tongue. Scum iamp on the other hand is CAREFUL. Maybe that's not the best word for it, but I think it describes it perfectly. He tries not to make sure he pisses anyone off, he isn't as free and easy with his thoughts, and he's even less aggressive than normal. Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion. My inclinations are opposite. Interesting. Like I said, some of his early posts (particularly the ones to me and you, two the people who know him best), and his posts in the last hour or so fit with what I expect to see from town iamp. A lot of his stuff in the middle just doesn't have that "zing" though.
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On February 15 2013 06:47 austinmcc wrote:You did have a bunch of posts about his meta and how you could read him though. I'm really not making this up. It doesn't mean you're wrong here, or can't read him, or ANYTHING. To me it just shows that (1) If he has a meta, it's been discussed to some length, including the exact points you're raising here. (2) To the extent that's his meta, he's been able to alter his playstyle temporarily at times to make you think he's town, based on the same criteria you're using here. (3) Ain't no (3). From 3 + Show Spoiler +On October 22 2012 08:13 Keirathi wrote:The only person I would feel in any way comfortable making any kind of meta read on while still alive in this game is iamperfection, and thats only because he has a very, very distinctly different posting style as town vs scum. At least until he figures out how to trick me  On October 23 2012 03:34 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:14 austinmcc wrote:
Keirathi:
I wrote some stuff here but it was super wishy-washy and it's just my thoughts that don't go anywhere. So instead, could you update your read on iamperfection, in long-form?
He's not being talked about, but you said he felt "kind of town" and noted that you felt confident in meta-reading him. Could you just blabber on in a post or two about what read you get from him based on his play this game and based on meta? It's pretty easy. Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 10:01 iamperfection wrote:Im all for using votes to apply pressure and we don't have to worry about someone doing a stupid hammer it wont happen. However all this policy talk bores me time for some action.On October 20 2012 09:14 DarthPunk wrote:
Hi drazak? What is your role?
blatant blue hunting darthpunk. Why not ask alignment instead of role? Talk to me darthpunk i wish to know more. ## Vote DarthPunk Note the bolded. Scum iamp doesn't say things like that that could potentially make him look bad. It's basically the same read I had on him in Aperture, where I was wrong. The key difference, I think, is that he only had 4 posts and I made a snap judgement rather than basing it on an overall pattern, partly because GSL2 was still going on at the time and I was convinced he was scum in that game (which I was right about). He is very distinctly more carefree as town, while being careful as scum. Of course, I've told him this multiple times so he could potentially try to play differently, and his recent posting regarding me and v7 seems much more careful than his posting earlier in the day. So, I'm still slightly town on him and wouldn't want to lynch him today. If he is scum trying to play differently, I don't think he'll be able to keep it up for long. On October 23 2012 03:53 Keirathi wrote:
It's pretty hard to separate that knowledge out. I've read or played in every single game that iamp has been in, AFAIK.
Maybe I would be a bit suspicious of a random guy for hopping on the easy bandwagons, but not more so than other people. But again, I don't think this is scum iamp. On October 24 2012 05:23 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 04:25 iamperfection wrote:On October 24 2012 03:42 Hapahauli wrote:
@ iamperfection
You not pushing your case isn't the main issue here (well it IS an issue, but not the main point). The concern I have is that you basically called Kei scum, and simply left your vote on v7 the entire time. What you post after the fact - what you said you should have done in retrospect - has no bearing on what you did. i believe i chimed in from my phone. i couldn't be involved sorry? i guess. had work. And you know what even if was here i still would have left my vote on vaderseven the guy did nothing to make me think he was town. so basically your case boils down to i didnt act like you. Vaderseven came across to me like he was full of crap so i make no apologies for leaving my vote on him. These are the kind of posts that are making me suspicious of iamp again. It's just so... not iamp. Town iamp doesn't give a fuck what you think about him. He explains himself when he feels like it, and doesn't care how bad the explanation is. He certainly doesnt apologize, even sarcastically. Note that you're even aware of the possibility that, because you've discussed this exact issue with him, he could just be acting differently to confuse you.
I don't even know what we're arguing about at this point. I trust my ability to read iamp as the game goes on. As of right now, he hasn't shown enough in either direction for me to full say that he is scum or town, but currently leaning towards scum.
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On February 15 2013 06:50 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 06:47 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:45 iamperfection wrote:
Keir am I town or scum go. On February 15 2013 06:32 Keirathi wrote:
Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion. On February 15 2013 06:37 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:33 marvellosity wrote:On February 15 2013 06:32 Keirathi wrote:On February 15 2013 06:25 austinmcc wrote:On February 15 2013 06:22 Keirathi wrote:
@austin:
How does that compare to what a town iamp, specifically, would do? Off the top of my head, I can only give the you the best answer I've got - I don't know, actually. The only specific thing I remember about scum iamp is that he's more than willing to vote early. I have not refreshed my mind by reading any past games, although I remember him as scum in GSL Open III. Well I'll share, because I think he has a very interesting playstyle. Town iamp is quite capable of doing all those things you outlined. He says whatever pops in his head, randomly calls people our, and hardly ever is a major voice in getting someone lynched. He's a follower not a leader, but he does have unique viewpoints and opinions. The major way to tell the difference between scum iamp and town iamp, though, is in his attitude. Town iamp just doesn't give a fuck. He will literally say anything that pops into his head, doesn't care how it makes him look. He doesn't apologize for it, or take things back, or hold his tongue. Scum iamp on the other hand is CAREFUL. Maybe that's not the best word for it, but I think it describes it perfectly. He tries not to make sure he pisses anyone off, he isn't as free and easy with his thoughts, and he's even less aggressive than normal. Personally, I think ATM that he is kind of fitting into his scum persona atm. He just doesn't have that "I don't give a fuck" attitude in most of his posts. Im not sure I want to lynch him yet though, because there are hints of it, and I just want to see more before I come to a definite conclusion. My inclinations are opposite. Interesting. Like I said, some of his early posts (particularly the ones to me and you, two the people who know him best), and his posts in the last hour or so fit with what I expect to see from town iamp. A lot of his stuff in the middle just doesn't have that "zing" though. It was a yes or no question not maybe or possibly
If I knew you were scum, I would be voting for you. If I knew you were town, I wouldn't be having this conversation.
Quit asking dumb questions.
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On February 15 2013 06:53 austinmcc wrote:
Yaya, I didn't think we were arguing. I guess I just want to say that
I think he's scummy
I don't care as much for the meta in this case, because it's been discussed
Your response just seemed very focus on asking me to match up this game with his meta. I'd point towards GSL 2, especially D1, to read for him acting like he is here, imo. Just remembered 3 because we were in it together, and this same thing came up.
And I disagree. I think he kept up his townie persona on day 1 in GSL 3, and as soon as it slipped and he started being more careful about apologetic, we lynched him.
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On February 15 2013 06:55 austinmcc wrote:
nono. GSL 2. The one you weren't in. THAT D1.
Oh. All those numbers and counting and shit confuse me, sorry
Anyways, my whole point with questioning your case is that I've seen townie iamp do all of the things you made your case about, and have seen scum iamp do them too. The only continuous factor that I've noticed in every single game he has played is his attitude. Until he shows me he can fake it for an entire game, I'll keep trusting my ability to judge him off of it.
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On February 15 2013 07:12 austinmcc wrote:
Ack. Too much time talking with keirathi, I've caught the jumpiness.
There's only one answer there though.
Back in 15-20.
Ah, and now the student becomes the master!
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EPT
